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Lakers Chat: Discussing the Lakers' offseason movement

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--Mark Medina

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@LTLF ... As I said before, the best trade analyzer on the blog. ESPN should hire you and give you a link right next to the trade machine with a message sort of like Google’s “I’m Feeling Lucky” for them to click to go to the machine.
....................................
TOM


Kudos to Mark Jackson for landing the GS gig. It's time to dance!

I am amazed and perplexed.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=310605006

D-Wade shot the ball 21 times and only had 3 assists while playing with
LBJ, C-Bosh, M. Miller & M. Bibby.

Where's all the comments about him being a ballhog?

For the Island Priestess [ thanks PSP ],

Umm ... How are you going to feel if D-Wade puts up Kobe like numbers
and gets the finals MVP while having LBJ on his team?

Doesn't that just torpedo your whole "LBJ walks on H2O" routine?

So ... I'm curious as to whether anyone can give me a clear answer.

I see a lot of frightened sheep out there. Tons of: Kobe saying he's going to shoot the ball is terrifying.

What did Kobe passing the ball to Pau & Bynum do for the Lakers this year?

And just so we're clear, the number of shots Kobe takes is completely
irrelevant to me. The primary thing is that the Lakers win.

I'm just trying to understand why so many of y'all are bucking the method that got us to the finals 3 years in a row.

And just so we're clear, the number of shots Kobe takes is completely
irrelevant to me. The primary thing is that the Lakers win.
Posted by: hobbitmage | June 06, 2011 at 06:11 PM

Dude...that's the problem, you don't.

About Kobe......he usually shoots the most when other top players are flailing. The team loses and he gets blamed. Sometimes he goes too far, but usually it is a result of the team playing poorly. I don't think the team benefits from having it's top player being afraid to shoot, or become less aggressive. What he has shown in the past is that when the Lakers are playing effectively as a team, he is perfectly willing to take less shots. Next year he is going to come back fresh and healthy, and doubters will be pointing the finger at other players.

>>>And just so we're clear, the number of shots Kobe takes is completely
>>>irrelevant to me. The primary thing is that the Lakers win.
>>>Posted by: hobbitmage | June 06, 2011 at 06:11 PM
>>>
>>Dude...that's the problem, you don't.

G Money.

Last 4 seasons:
Kobe - 2 rings, 3 finals appearances.
Wade - 1 finals appearance... MAYBE 1 ring
LeBron - 1 finals appearance... MAYBE 1 ring

You do the math.



It's not a logo, it's a horse hoof mark...or maybe it's a symbol for a club for "I haven't mastered the combover yet...so I am still in the cap phase of my life".

Posted by: Humanomaly | June 08, 2011 at 09:30 PM
---

That is so funny. I did a Google Images search for Jim Buss and Google did not return a single photo of him without a black cap on.

latopia,

you wrote: And there was nothing in Bynum's prep history to predict Drew's subsequent injuries as a pro. So any trade or offer of substantial value for Bynum would only validate Jim's original assessment.

my response: Actually there was something in Bynum's prep history. He
had knee surgery.

G. Money,

you wrote: And just so we're clear, the number of shots Kobe takes is completely
irrelevant to me. The primary thing is that the Lakers win.
Posted by: hobbitmage | June 06, 2011 at 06:11 PM

Dude...that's the problem, you don't.

Posted by: G.Money | June 07, 2011 at 03:08 AM


my response: My understanding is that the Lakers won 5 championships
b/n 2000 & 2010. They went to the Finals 7 times.

Two questions for you:

1. What is your definition of winning if 5 championships & 7 trips to the
finals don't count as winning?

2. Besides MJ ( & teammates ) & Bill Russell ( & teammates), can you name
some superstars who have better records in the NBA finals?

Snake92646,

I'm assuming that the digits are your zip code and not the numbers on a board you were holding up when being photographed.....
I looked it up, and I don't think there are many snakes down in HB....there is a Black Mamba about a leisurely 45 minute drive further down PCH. I hate snakes as there have been plenty in my yard, that rattling sound really freezes you...
Back to little JB with the cap...you think he wears it when he goes to formal events, he is wealthy, but not that wealthy where you can wear unhemmed jeans, a ragged brown sweater, and hiking boots and go to fine restaurants, then proceed to take your books off and start rubbing your feet...because that would make you Keanu Reeves. How old is this guy, let me check...."Whoa!!!", I went to Wikipedia and he doesn't even have a page....I even have a relative and a few friends that have pages in Wikipedia, you know why??? Because they did significant things in their lives, or is that lifes??? Anyway, I'm sure he will, soon....off the top of my mane, lets check the Urban Dictionary for "J.B."....
Well there he is...

1. J.B.

A jb is a strange fellow. at times he acts like he doesn't care, but deep down you know he does. Gets offened easily but thats just all part of the act. likes to play fight wheater he will admit it or not. thinks highly of other people but never of himself. very smart and inteligent. trustworthy. loyal, would never cheat on you. makes you stay up late thinking about him. its hard to mad at him. makes you laugh when you didn't even want to smile. gives very sincere compliments. loves curly hair. most amazing person ever.
"j.b. is what you always wanted"

2. J.B.

To take something from a friend in an unintentional or absentminded way, most often regarding inexpensive or commonplace items.
"Hey man, did you J.B. my lighter?"

hmmmm,neigh....definition #3 is offensive. Let's trot out #4....

4. J.B.

Someone who gets too drunk to often and usually blackout. During the blackout period they typically lose their phone. Results in total buzz kill while people try to find the JB's phone.

"Consequences for the JB:
Any friends of the JB are allowed to harass the JB until they get a new phone.
Travis: Why is everyone on the ground?
Jack: that Barret kid is a worthless J.B.
Travis: Wow what a bag of dousche..."

(AOTA from Urban Dictionary OnLine...that's why there's so much misspelling and inappropriate use of grammar, that wasn't me...I still use my "Elements of Style" by Stunk & White)

As for the Laker's offseason movement, they are not packing up in moving vans at night and moving to Oklahoma City, only people named Clay do that.
Wasn't this the same as the previous topic, or does making it in discussion form un-equilibrate it. To migrate back toward that topic, I think that Kobe will have to become more of a distributor or what was that overly used word for offensive initiator that I had not heard til about 3-4 years ago, forget it, they're done with the triangle, (LOL)...so Kobe will have to go "L.B.J." more in addition to his freelancing, but more so as he has a propensity to want the ball and responsibility at the end of games unlike some other player....
I miss Chris Mihm, at least he could make a 2 footer, R U reading Mr. Walton??? I think training camp will be physical, with Pau owing somebody a hit cuz PJ left before he Pau and his medical training could find a part of PJ's body that hasn't been surgically replaced with titanium, so maybe we'll have a "Mihm/M'Benga" repeat...

The Lakers need Raymond Felton and J R Smith..

My starting line up:

Raymond Felton G
J R Smith SG
Kobe Bryant SF
Paul Gasol PF
Andrew Byrum C

latopia, you wrote: And there was nothing in Bynum's prep history to predict Drew's subsequent injuries as a pro. So any trade or offer of substantial value for Bynum would only validate Jim's original assessment.

my response: Actually there was something in Bynum's prep history. He had knee surgery. Posted by: hobbitmage | June 08, 2011 at 10:40 PM

---

No, actually he didn't.

From the Hartford Courant, January 21, 2005 [ http://bit.ly/kNgFYk ]:

///

UConn recruit Andrew Bynum had 21 points, 16 rebounds and four blocks Wednesday in his first game back from what was once thought to be a season-ending knee injury.

Bynum led St. Joseph High School (Metuchen, N.J.) to an 82-59 victory over Perth Amboy.

The 7-foot senior, generally regarded as one of the top three high school centers, injured his right knee in December and was originally diagnosed with a torn ACL.

``They were ready to cut into him and everything,'' said Corey Thomas, Bynum's brother. ``It was lucky that we went to get a second opinion.''

A second MRI called into question the original diagnosis and additional testing revealed that Bynum had a deep bruise on his kneecap and minor ligament damage.

He did some rehab work and returned to the court Wednesday, not a moment too soon for St. Joseph, which lost seven of its first 10 games without Bynum.

``This was a big-time relief,'' Thomas said. ``We went from thinking it was a real serious injury that would cause him to miss the whole season to him having a chance in the county and the states.''

Bynum averaged 13 points and 17 rebounds as a junior at St. Joseph. His size and strength were enough to catch the attention of many top college recruiters but his stock climbed higher over the summer as he showed improved post skills.

Bynum selected UConn over North Carolina and Georgia Tech and signed a letter of intent in November.

\\\

Alright - game 5 tonight. GO MAVS!! I'm also of the belief that if they take this, they can take the series. 2 chances in Miami to make 1 sounds pretty good to me. Dirk and his merry band of ...well... "veterans" for lack of a better word..... seem like they've got enough heart to never surrender. They're hungry. And if they can push hard tonight, I think they take this thing. And if that happens, the angels will sing in heaven and all will be right with the world. :)

latopia,

I stand corrected on the surgery. Is it your opinion that

"A second MRI called into question the original diagnosis and additional testing revealed that Bynum had a deep bruise on his kneecap and minor ligament damage."

is no indication of problems with his knees?

My moves: A three-team trade with Golden State, Philly and the Lakers;

76ers get Monta Ellis - trade discussions for Ellis have already been rumored.

Warriors get Lamar Odom/?(Blake) - the move gets G.S. back into the playoffs.

Lakers get Andre Iguodala - Lakers get two-way athleticism on the wing, and maintain some versatility as Iggy can play and defend at spots 2-4. Lakers still must pick-up a quicker PG and a back-up big, but this team would most definately be in Miami's class. It even has a much better "tall line-up" in that Iggy can likely get back on defense more quickly than Odom.

Bynum
Gasol
Artest
Igoudala
Bryant

Trade works and that ESPN machine Hollinger analysis shows that the games won/lost are statistically a wash for all three teams - its a balanced trade from all stand points. More importantly , I like this line-up defensively on Lebron and Wade; it gives a little to Wade's quickness, but then we have Drew. Thoughts?


G.Money,

>>>And just so we're clear, the number of shots Kobe takes is completely
>>>irrelevant to me. The primary thing is that the Lakers win.
>>>Posted by: hobbitmage | June 06, 2011 at 06:11 PM
>>>
>Dude...that's the problem, you don't.

And thank you G. Money for proving hobbitmage's point.

In the 2009 playoffs, Kobe took 23 shots per game, and the Lakers won a championship.

In the 2010 playoffs, Kobe took 22 shots per game, and the Lakers won a championship.

In the 2011 playoffs, Kobe took 18.6 shots per game (deferring to the bigs, as some of you INSIST is what he needs to do)... and the Lakers lost in the second round.

Anyone claiming that Kobe shooting more is a bad thing needs to wake up and smell the second round exit.

And as a last response to G. Money... when Kobe shoots more, the Lakers win championships.

SO FAR, all the "big 3" have shot is their mouths off at the start of the season. A week from now you might be justified in your boasting. But enjoy your boast while you can.

>>>About Kobe......he usually shoots the most when other top players are
>>>flailing. The team loses and he gets blamed

That has been one of my primary arguments for the last 4 seasons...

TV "pundits" always make a big claim that if Kobe takes 20 or less shots, the Lakers win X % of the time, and if he takes 21 or more shots, the Lakers win Y % of the time.

But they clearly don't understand the notion of cause and effect. I agree with you that Kobe shooting more is usually when he's trying to shoot them out of a big deficit.

In the last 4 seasons, if the Lakers fall behind by 10 or more in the second half (and especially in the 4th), Kobe has felt compelled to try to take over and get them back in the game. If they're leading by 10 late in the game, then he sits on the bench for most of the 4th.

And thus if the Lakers are ALREADY WINNING, then Kobe shoots less...
and if they're ALREADY LOSING, then Kobe shoots more.

And think of all those games in 2010 where the Lakers came from behind and ended up with Kobe hitting a game-winner at the buzzer. What was it, 5 or 6 buzzer-beaters to win a game? If the Clippers got down by 10 in the 4th, they'd lose 10 times out of 10. It's nice to have a guy that can turn that into losing 6 out of 10 (which means you won 4 games that most other teams would have lost because of Kobe taking over).

Toneluv39,


>>>Raymond Felton G
>>>J R Smith SG
>>>Kobe Bryant SF
>>>Paul Gasol PF
>>>Andrew Byrum C

So who's this Andrew Byrum guy? Is he in the draft? :-)

I'll assume since you have Byrum [sic] and Pau in your starting lineup, that Lamar is the main piece going out in the trade. If so, that's probably reasonable. I could see the Nugs liking a starting front court of Nene and Odom.

And I'm okay with the trade. Smith is similar to Odom in a way, in that he's inconsistent. He can score 20 and help you win, or if his head's not in the came he can contribute to you losing as well.

But If Kobe's starting at SF, then he's going to wear down VERY quickly having to chase Durant and Pierce and LeBron and other bigger younger players down every night.

So Artest starts and Smith backs up Kobe off the bench. Other than that, I approve of this trade. Felton's a bit like a young Derek Fisher, but a slightly better passer and a slightly worse shooter.

latopia,

>>>He did some rehab work and returned to the court Wednesday, not a
>>>moment too soon for St. Joseph, which lost seven of its first 10 games
>>>without Bynum.

Okay, so he didn't need ACL surgery.

But it's still a red-light warning if a guy misses more than half of his senior season with an injury.

The fact that his team lost 7 of 10 because he was out injured sounds like a pretty good warning sign to me.

Fortunately, he hasn't been as bad as Greg Oden, who had slightly less strong warning signs and turned out to be MUCH more injury prone.

Gliggins,

Interesting trade, and Ellis/Odom/Iggy is fairly balanced in terms of talent moving around. But there is a problem with the trade.

>>>Lakers get Andre Iguodala -

This trade removes the Lakers biggest advantage over other teams - size.

The Pau/Drew/Lamar 21-foot-tall monster is enough to beat most teams even without Kobe. Remove Lamar from the equation and they're impressive, but not AS impressive.

And what did you get for that? More depth at a position where the Lakers are already pretty well covered with Artest and Barnes (not to mention Luke and Ebanks).

I'm not saying it's a bad trade. And it does at least give the Lakers more youth on the wings (Iggy younger than Artest). But it still leaves them old and slow at PG while making them weaker in the front court.

If somehow the trade could include Artest going out and the Lakers getting an upgrade at PG, then it's much more reasonable. Or if there was a separate trade where the Lakers were giving up Artest for a PG, that works as well.

Basically Artest+Igoudala = not enough minutes for two good players.

Oh... problem #2 with the GS-Philly-Lakers trade.

You just left the Lakers with Derek Fisher as the ONLY point guard on the team.

You really want DFish playing 48 minutes every night?

"Posted by: LongTimeLakerFan | June 09, 2011 at 09:30 AM "

Excellent concise statment of what I have been screaming at this blog for 3 years! Thank you!

Okay, I fixed it for you...

Lakers send Lamar Odom and Steve Blake to Golden State
Lakers send Ron Artest to Philadelphia

Golden State sends Monta Ellis and Jeremy Lin to Philadelphia

Philadelphia sends Andre Igoudala and Lou Williams to the Lakers.

Golden State gets Odom and a backup PG

Philly gets a better shooting guard to put beside Jrue Holiday and frees up minutes to play Evan Turner more

Lakers get younger at SF and get an upgrade at PG.

latopia Is it your opinion that [Bynum kneecap bruise & knee sprain as a St. Joseph prep] is no indication of problems with his knees? Posted by: hobbitmage | June 09, 2011 at 08:47 AM

Okay, so he didn't need ACL surgery. But it's still a red-light warning if a guy misses more than half of his senior season with an injury. Posted by: LongTimeLakerFan | June 09, 2011 at 09:39 AM

---

I'm not an orthopedic surgeon or specialist.

I have experienced "knee sprains" so I'll hazard a guess: If high school bruising or sprained knees were problematic to NBA teams, the NBA would be full of non-athletes who can't, don't or won't jump.

That said, like others, I'm a big skeptic of Bynum's durability which I've already noted on this blog.

I mentioned Bynum's prep career in the context of his then-oft-criticized selection as the 10th pick in 2005, i.e, Jim Buss didn't overestimate his talent even though Laker physicians may have overlooked (structural flaws in) his knees.


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