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Caught in the Web: Reactions to Lakers' 95-90 loss to Denver Nuggets

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Game stories

--The Times' Mike Bresnahan notes how the Lakers' 95-90 loss Sunday to the Denver Nuggets contrasted from the team's usual dominance since the All-Star break.

--The Orange County Kevin Ding and the Riverside Press Enterprise's David Lassen explains how the Nuggets ended the Lakers' nine-game winning streak. 

--The Denver Post's Benjamin Hochman explains the significance of the Nuggets' win over the Lakers.

--The Daily News' Elliott Teaford details the Lakers' poor late-game stretches.

Notebooks

--The Times' Bresnahan explains Lamar Odom's perspective on why Kenyon Martin got the putback over him that secured the Nuggets' victory.

--The Riverside Press Enterprise's Lassen and the Daily News' Teaford explains why Tex Winter's Hall of Fame induction is bittersweet for Lakers Coach Phil Jackson.

Sidebars

--The Times' Broderick Turner details how the Lakers' plan to immediately refocus after their loss to Denver.

Columns

--The Times' Mark Heisler believes the Nuggets are a tougher team for the Lakers to handle now that they don't have Carmelo Anthony.

--The Orange County Register's Ding argues the Lakers' loss to Denver doesn't mean much. 

--The Denver Post's Dave Krieger looks at how the Nuggets are different without Anthony.

--ESPN Los Angeles' Arash Markazi notices the Lakers aren't worried about the loss to Denver.

--ESPN Los Angeles' Dave McMenamin looks at how the Nuggets improve.

Blogs

--Pro Basketball Talk's Kurt Helin argues the Nuggets' victory should get the Thunder worried about its possible first-round matchup with Denver.

--ESPN Los Angeles' Brian Kamenetzky breaks down the Lakers' loss to Denver.

--NBA.com's Sekou Smith is worried about the Lakers' injuries.

--Lakers.com's Mike Trudell provides a running diary of the game.

--Silver Screen and Roll's DexterFishmore argues there's nothing to worry about in the Lakers' loss to Denver.

--Forum Blue and Gold's Phillip Barnett dissects the Lakers' poor rebounding and turnovers.

Tweet of the Day:

"The NBA is a weird place! How can a man that plays 0 defense call a 2 time champion soft?" -- AndrewBynum (Lakers center Andrew Bynum)

Rick Friedman Reader Comment of the Day:

"The fact Tex Winter is not in the basketball HOF at present is almost criminal. This man is to the NBA what John Wooden was to college. By that I am specifically referring the the direct influence on the overall game, as played by overyone at that level, universally. This is not a coaching competition I speak of. Rather, I am only talking about influencing the way the game is played.

At this point, nearly every team in the NBA runs some offensive scheme, at times, that directly references the triangle. Coaches come and go. But how many people really, actually influence the way the game is played...by everyone? This is exactly why Tex not only should be in the HOF, but is the walking embodiment of the HOF." -- Robben F

--Mark Medina

E-mail the Lakers blog at [email protected]

Photo: Lakers guard Kobe Bryant tries to get past the engulfing defense of Nuggets power forward Kenyon Martin in the fourth quarter Sunday afternoon at Staples Center, where Denver pulled out a 95-90 victory over L.A. Credit: Wally Skalij / Los Angeles Times / April 3, 2011

 
Comments () | Archives (50)

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Robben: If there were a Friedman comment of the week, or the month, that would be it in my book. "This is exactly why Tex not only should be in the HOF, but is the walking embodiment of the HOF." beautifully said...


AS ALWAYS - AND FOREVER - GO LAKERS!!!!!!

No articles on Drew/Pau's condition? Does that mean they are good-to-go?

"We had a relationship that went very deep, Tex and I simply because I wasn't a very good coach," Jackson conceded during his early years with Chicago. "I didn't have a lot of knowledge and he had a lot of knowledge."
---------------------------------------

Coaches come and go. But how many people really, actually influence the way the game is played...by everyone?
Posted by: Robben F | April 04, 2011 at 10:04 AM

----------------------------------

1990/2000 :
Jordan, (Hakeem)
2000/2010

2000/2010

Kobe (Shaq, Timmy)

Triangle = Ode to Mediocrity (Maybe Lil Wayne or Snoop will compose something for the occasion)

Isn't it ironical that a Triangle with Tex, Jackson, Kobe, Shaq that had as propaganda spacing, passing, sharing, touches was defeated by a "blue collar" team, the Pistons.

Also last night, (as a fresh example), the Triangle crumbled against another "blue collar" team, the Nuggets.

Even when played "at Tex/t perfection", the Triangle was/is clinical?
Nothing spectacular if not for Jordan and Kobe, the real predators, kept by this system in a cage. (pyramid)

As soon as Phil leaves this system will go into oblivion. Rambis and Shaw are doomed as soon Kobe retires. But keep singing the praise.

The type of players with their athleticism that are entering the NBA have different tendencies and opposite "nature" to a STIFF offense that is catered for slow, still players like Luke, Fisher and Gasol who don't know how to move off the ball.

Tex's induction in the Hall of Fame is the funeral of the Triangle. It had its "angles" and perspectives. OBSOLETE. OUT of PRINT.

"I feel square"

nice call CCX - MM, may we take it that Drew and Pau are on track to play tomorrow night?

@Robben F – Congrats on the Friedman.
@Cyber – I agree on BShaw. Like Tex, he won’t bite his tongue.
@Bay to LA – I’m with you. The refs didn’t cost the Lakers the game.


Where is everybody at today? After yesterday's loss Maybe its just a bluesy Monday …

T-Bone Walker – Stormy Monday – the classic that inspired so many.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVR8lg1YLuc

Rocky - U da man! Congrats on winning the Fantasy BBall League. Now I know how the eastern conference finalist will fill this year :-)

Congratulations to Tex Winter indicted as a coach and not as a contributor. Very well deserved sir!

Also congrats Justa on winning your fantasy bball league! I came in 2nd :( made a few bad decisions down the stretch, forgot to channel my inner black mamba to klose the deal haha.

And MEH losing to the Nuggets, law of averages say we are due for a loss. And I'd rather get that out of the way now than lose our first playoff game. Also, my only concern at this point is Pau and Bynum's health. Any word on that MM?

Can't wait for the playoffs, it will be a death match, both East and West matchups.

Onto to the next win :)


@THE BULIMIC ½ EMPTY GLASS ... Whether you’re a troll or a just a GHE regular hiding behind his nom du jour, your post not only insulted Tex Winter but also showed how little you really know about playing the game of basketball or impact of the Triangle Offense on the game. Only a fool like you could present a meaningless regular season “practice” game and an injury-marred loss in the Finals to the Pistons to “prove” that the Triangle Offense was obsolete.
...
I think you will be surprised to see the Lakers keep the Triangle Offense once Phil Jackson retires. It would be foolhardy for the Lakers to abandon a system that the players know so well and that has won them 5-and-counting NBA championships. That’s why Brian Shaw is the odds on favorite to succeed Phil as the Lakers next head coach. With Drew healthy and playing at the level he is playing, the Lakers and the Triangle Offense’s championship window has just been extended.
.......................................
TOM

what was drew's tweet about? i caught it on my timeline but i couldn't find a reference.

"what was drew's tweet about? i caught it on my timeline but i couldn't find a reference.

Posted by: soshibo | April 04, 2011 at 11:26 AM "

Apparently Amare Stoudemire recently said that Pau was soft.

got it. thanks. and ROFL. oh amare... how cute

Am I really suppose to worry about a team that just went 17-2?

Congrats to Artis Gilmore for FINALLY getting inducted. He’s the #5 all-time rebounder and #20 scorer in NBA/ABA history. I always like to see some of the guys that started off in the ABA get some love.

Congrats also to Mully! Next up...another one of NYC finest... Bernard…please! Hello committee...Bernard!

hey guys, ddn't get to see the game yesterday. a couple of questions i've got for my fellow lakerholics. 1. why wasn't andrew in for the rebound at the end of the game. 2. the replays show clearly that martin pushed off....where were the three blind mice at? 3. wtf was wrong with L.A.? were the nuggets that good......or were the Lakers playing lackluster ball? thanks

131 and Red,

I feel your pain on the ill-advised trade and all the injuries so I thought I'd throw you this bone...

Since Satch Sanders was elected that makes 8 of the 11 Celtics from the 61 and 62 championship teams....Russ, Heinsohn, Cooz, Ramsey, Sam, KC, Sharman and Satch.
--------------------
I'm still hoping the Greenies can make it back to the finals for the rubber match.

Lakeshowinphx

1. Phil was worried about Drews knee, he tweaked it during the game.
2. the answer is in the question; (hint: 3 blind mice)
3. combo of both, Lakers just weren't sharp, lotta mental errors, Nuggs wanted it more and got it, deservedly so.

Art, you got it correct sir.

131 and Red,

Just want to balance out LRob, I hope the Celts are eliminated in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd round.

Here's the remaining regular season schedule for Lakers: 6 games in 9 days with 2 back to back games.

Tue, Apr 5 vsUtah
Wed, Apr 6 @Golden State
Fri, Apr 8 @Portland
Sun, Apr 10 vsOklahoma City
Tue, Apr 12 vsSan Antonio
Wed, Apr 13 @Sacramento

I think the fatigue may have caught up to the Lakers players for playing so intense after ASG. Also, after yesterday's game the health issue crept in. I'd hope PJ will have reserves play significant PT during next 2 or 3 games with Bynum and Gasol not 100%. I wish to see much reserves, including Smith and Ratliff and to rest the big 3's (Gasol, Bynum, and Kobe) as much as possible. After that, the Lakers should focus on OKC and SA games to have them the momentum going into the playoffs.

As far as HCA is concerned, the only teams I'd like the Lakers ahead of are the Celtics and the Heat. I don't think Chicago will come out of the East, and the Lakers will win the West no matter what.

thanks art, appreciate the comments!

@Lakeshowinphx - I would agree with Art.

@Art - haha on the C's...hey I Tivo'd a few more episodes of "Men of a Certain Age" and its growing on me.

@Jefe/mclyne - what you got today?

Robben: Great comment, and well-deserving of the Friedman RCOTD. Nicely put.

LakerPeace: I agree about the starters needing some rest... more importantly, though, I'd like to see the bench get some solid minutes. They need to get their mojo back. Shannon needs to be reminded that dribbling for 22 seconds of the shot clock and launching a fallaway long-distance 2-pointer is NOT running the offense. That guy is so athletically talented -- he needs to move TOWARD the hoop, not away from it.

Go Lake Show!

LakerPeace,

I hope you're right, but I think the playoffs are going to be a fight. If the Lakers luck out and get N.O. in the first round that will be an easy out, but I think the next two rounds will be some work.

If healthy, the Spurs are not going down easy as in the past couple of years.

In the east, barring injury the Bulls are going to the Finals, probably with HCA.
Yep, an official prediction.
You heard it here first :)

What impressed me more than anything about this new look Nuggets team was their defense. The photo of Felton and Lawson harrassing Shannon Brown in the above post perfectly captures the kind of stifling "D" that George Karl has them playing right now - and on that score, getting rid of 'Melo was certainly a case of addition by subtraction.
Gallinari, Felton and Mozgov ( and to a lesser degree Wilson Chandler) give Denver a nice infusion of youth and size to deepen this Nuggets team - the Knicks gave up a LOT to get Anthony - I hope that works out well for them because that was some kind of swap.
If they face OKC in the first round, they're going to give the Thunder fits.

LRob,

Yeah, just wanna keep the blog in balance so had to post that!!

Ditto on the show, had to grow on me too, ya gotta get to know the characters then it becomes more meaningful, as in many shows.

Here's the thing about the new-look Nugs.

They don't have a superstar, but they have several guys coming off the bench that would start for lots of other teams.

Ray Felton, Al Harrington, JR Smith, and Mosgov are all quality bench players. And note that when Arron Afflalo is healthy, they also have Wilson Chandler coming off the bench, making them even deeper.

Other than Odom, the Lakers don't have anyone as consistently good as those guys. Blake or Brown or Barnes might have a good night once in awhile, but not as consistently as Felton or Smith or Chandler.

Most of Lakers' bench:
Barnes -12
Brown -8
Blake -4

Most of Denver's Bench:
Harrington +3
Smith +1
Mozgov +5

That accounts for the real differential in the game last night.

@LRob - OK, for your viewing and listening pleasure - a track that perfectly crystalizes the current and ongoing dialogue going on with respect to the Lakers, both in my head and, seemingly, on this blog - with a number of voices out there vying for the role of Judas!
"Everything's Alright" - chalk up another one for Yvonne Elliman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkje4FiH9Qc

IF you aren't happy about Tex makin' the hall, basketball's not your game.

Congratulations to the hall... better late than never.

I think you will be surprised to see the Lakers keep the Triangle Offense once Phil Jackson retires. It would be foolhardy for the Lakers to abandon a system that the players know so well and that has won them 5-and-counting NBA championships. That’s why Brian Shaw is the odds on favorite to succeed Phil as the Lakers next head coach. With Drew healthy and playing at the level he is playing, the Lakers and the Triangle Offense’s championship window has just been extended.
.......................................
TOM

Posted by: LakerTom | April 04, 2011 at 11:21 AM

You are totally delusional. Most of the players DON'T KNOW the "∆".
(except Kobe and maybe Luke. I'm not counting Fisher because his position is easy. Pass left or right and go to the corner and wait for the pass.)

Most of the players know how to play ONLY when they have the ball in their hands.

Let's take it chronological (except Kobe, Luke, who had 7 years, and Fisher who played for 14, more or less). Actually I will say that sometimes when is moving well, Kobe is FORCING the triangle and reminds people of certain plays. Also, if you are watching Kobe on the bench, constantly he is REFRESHING the memory of some of the players. Nothing wrong):

Lamar is the oldest - has no idea. Sometimes he is cutting and Gasol passes him the ball. Most plays he makes are ISO plays from the top because he can handle the ball and plays as a PG.

Bynum - not too much to know. Also he is STILL learning how to pass OUT and to reposition himself. I don't see IT as a specific ∆ play, is it?

Gasol at 4, not a difficult position either. He likes to pass OUT anyway, when he is scared of a rough defense. Very good passes when Kobe cuts. (but Kobe knows the plays). And sometimes with Odom. OVERPASSING with Bynum.

Artest and Barnes - have no clue. Artest plays well only when he handles the ball. Barnes, even if newer to the system looks better because he likes to move without the ball.

Blake looks good sometimes - because he is a willing passer. Also the easy position like Fisher.

Shannon - has no IDEA after 2-1/2 years. Why is he dribbling and can't make a pass for the ∆ to be fluid? No BB IQ. But that is a different issue.

The rest I won't even mention.

There are 3 signs that they don't know/understand the ∆.

A. When Luke is IN, he can direct the ∆, but because many others don't have the imagination and don't know HOW TO MOVE off the ball, he looks isolated, many times having a TO. Not his fault.

B. When the 3 Bees are In, they pass on the perimeter for no reason. Like College basketball team. And UPS is free lancing. NO TRIANGLE. Only 3 pt. shots.

C. How many times do you see that all the players are in the middle of the paint banging heads?

D. Sometimes they start to execute it. The idea of the triangle is to free a player who will take a shot or to cut to the hoop. But Artest and Fisher are hesitant and they are not shooting so all the passes made on that play fail. Same with Blake who "must" take some shots but he does not.

Conclusion: The Lakers are talented, or more talented than other teams. They can score. It is not the "∆". How many plays we watch when Artest, Gasol and LO play the same ISO like KOBE? Many.

Why do you think that Kobe prefers ISO's? Because he does not want the movement of the players muddling the paint.

And yes, we have Kobe who attracts all the attention and any player can be in a great position for a good shot.

Same thing was with the Bulls.
Jordan was playing and had very good shooters who were PLANTED on their position and making great shots. The difference is that the Bulls had better shooters and also they were moving toward the ball when Jordan was doubled/tripled vs. the Lakers who wait for Kobe's pass on a plate without moving towards the ball.

I will continue in PART II (to make the post shorter)


@THE BULIMIC ½ EMPTY GLASS ... Like I said, you don’t know really understand how the Triangle Offense works or the strategy behind the system or its advantages. I am sure you will disappear only to reappear again under another nom du jour that you think is funny or ironic, probably after a series of ridiculous and humiliating posts such as your earlier one today.
.......................................
TOM

"The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame today announced that 10 individuals have been named as the Class of 2011 to be honored August 11-13 during this year's Enshrinement Ceremonies, presented by NIKE. The inductees include former St. John's great, NBA star and 1992 Dream Team member Chris Mullin; five-time NBA champion Dennis Rodman; ABA/NBA legend Artis Gilmore and four-time NCAA women's coach of the year Tara VanDerveer; in addition to four-time Olympic gold medalist Teresa Edwards; European standout Arvydas Sabonis; all-time NCAA wins leader Herb Magee; eight-time NBA champion Tom "Satch" Sanders; coaching legend Tex Winter; and former Harlem Globetrotter Reece "Goose" Tatum, who will be honored posthumously. The announcement was made at a news conference in Houston, the site of the 2011 NCAA Final Four."

=====

It took this long to induct Satch Sanders? Truthfully, if he's in as a role player in 8 NBA championships on the same dynasty, shouldn't Robery Horry be a shoo-in, winning 7 championships on 3 different teams? By the way, Ralph Sampson fell "short."

@ LakerTom

PART II

Kobe does not care about PJ. Why do you think that he has any respect regarding Shaw? Are you talking about Shaw the didactic, pedantic one that had the Sasha issue? Think again.

The notion of "∆" is just POLITICS.

It is PJ's legacy vs. Kobe's. During the Jordan years, because he was the God of the NBA, PJ did not got too much credit. He rode Jordan's tail. He could not call him a ballhogg because the NBA's Gods will crush him.

In the Shaq/Kobe era, he did not get credit because Shaq was the Hollywood star on the court.

The "PJ can't win without great SUPERSTARS" meme started.

PJ is working very hard to de-mythicize IT. (He created a precedent by writing that Kobe is the most un-coachable player EVER). Also because the Colorado incident, the NBA did not give Kobe the same support like they gave Jordan.

Kobe became the "persona non grata" of the NBA, not great for the face of the league.

After resigning with the Lakers, PJ had no choice than to let Kobe do his thing. The rest were scrubs. LO included because of his inconsistencies.

As soon as Gasol got on the TEAM, PJ find the opportunity to change the balance. After the famous game in Memphis, when Gasol complained about TOUCHES to hide his hideous performances from that 7 game road trip, PJ found the IDEAL moment to blast his TRIANGLE politics, team play and so on. And Fisher, the other politicians supported the cause. But, surprisingly, just after a few games, the famous "ACTIVATOR " occurred. PJ begged Kobe during a timeout to stop being passive, to stop PASSING, to CANCEL the triangle and to go to work: We need you to ACTIVATE. Remember.

Immediately PJ created a new precent. If Kobe "ballhoggs" and the Lakers win it's OK. If the Lakers lose, he will be the scapegoat because he DOES NOT execute the Triangle.

And if you do not agree with me, I will DEFER to none other than Phil Jackson. Dave Friedman, the blogger from "20 Second Timeout" asked this year PJ if he wanted to make Gasol the LEADER of the TEAM. PJ answered that yes, he envisioned THAT, but did not work out because Gasol does not have the …

As you remember, at the beginning of the season, the Lakers were 8-0 before playing in Utah. In the 4th quarter of that game, Kobe scored 14 points and the Lakers were up 95-92 or 98-95 after a Kobe 3 pointer with 4:32 to go. Jazz called TO. PJ decided that Gasol, "HIS FAVORITE PLAYER TO WATCH (beside his son Luke)" to take over and finish the game. Gasol failed on like 3-4 possession, the most ridiculous one being the last one when the Lakers were down by 3 with like 7-10 seconds to go. And Gasol decided that a layup will do it. Only 2 points when needed 3. And he missed even that.

The Lakers went on a 4 game losing trip. That was with Gasol as a leader.

Not only that Gasol could not do it, but in the process PJ totally CRUSHED Gasol psychologically and also emasculated him in the process. And all the blogs started to talk about fictional "Gasol" girlfriend problems and also the rumors of him having a "hammy" problem came back.

Gasol FAILED and he played poorly for months. PJ never called him out in the press because he did not want to crush him PUBLICLY. He knew that the damage was done already. So that's why the Lakers struggled.

So the TRIANGLE is a "Fata Morgana", an illusion but more exactly, PJ's personal agenda of HOW the Lakers can win as a TEAM, and how the Lakers can win because of his COACHING and not because of Kobe "Bean" Bryant.

And the Gasol Leadership failure is from PJ's mouth and was not covered by the LA Times and no other site because the rest of the NBA has their own agenda of protecting Michael Jordan's legacy in a year when Kobe can get his 6th ring. So they all pushed for Gasol "the all star", "the real leader", "the best big man in the game".

Except, Gasol is the biggest CREAM PUFF, like the TRIANGLE. Read between the lines. Beside rings, there are also politics. And I don't care how many books PJ writes, the real book will be maybe in like 5-10 years when we will hear KOBE's memoirs regarding his life in the NBA. Where Amazing Personal Politics Happen.

I will defer to …

"I Feel very FULL"

@THE BULIMIC ½ EMPTY GLASS ... Like I said, you don’t know really understand how the Triangle Offense works or the strategy behind the system or its advantages. I am sure you will disappear only to reappear again under another nom du jour that you think is funny or ironic, probably after a series of ridiculous and humiliating posts such as your earlier one today.
.......................................
TOM

Posted by: LakerTom | April 04, 2011 at 01:19 PM

Funny you say that. Maybe I should ask Jon K to explain me the TRIANGLE. Yes, Jon K who after watching the TRIANGLE for 5-6 years and being very opinionated, asked the bloggers and MM for a reference about the TRIANGLE offense. Go figure …

"Now I will overflow"

Posted by: The Bulimic 1/2 Empty Glass | April 04, 2011 at 01:26 PM

cool story bro.

The triangle offense is an interesting topic. It is an efficient offensive strategy and when functioning properly, it creates easy passes and open shots for the offensive players as they react to shifts in the defense. Few fans can really describe it and even some of the Lakers players don't seem to have a solid idea of what it is.

While it can be effective, I don't think it is the perfect offensive model. The Lakers use it and are one of the top teams in the league. The Timberwolves use it and...well...they're the Timberwolves. You have to have the personnel to run it and to win games, you're still probably going to have to have better players than the opposing team.

The Bulls and Lakers had the personnel to win. Great players have won without the triangle but the triangle hasn't been a winning strategy without great players. I find it hard to believe the Lakers or Bulls wouldn't have still won without it but since they do use it and they do win with it, there's no reason to change that now.

Bay to LA,

I think you have an interesting point as does the Bulimic guy, who sounds very familiar by the way.
Does it really matter what handle he uses?
Do we not judge the posts we read based on the content of the post as opposed to the writers handle?

S, do the Lakers win because of the triangle or in spite of it?
This isn't a knock on PJ, his focus appears to be mgmt of players even more than X's and O's.
MJ, Kobe and Shaq didn't win without PJ, so he deserves the credit.

That being said, one could argue that if you put Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom, Artest all together, with PJ as coach, but a different "offensive system", they would be just as good. The players are more important than the "system", as MN shows.

I believe a *major* reason the Lakers are as good as they are is due to their ability to play really, really good defense when they put their minds to it.
Defense won them the Finals last year.
Watch the last 3-5 minutes of game 7, a defense clinic.
There isn't a "triangle" defense, is there?

Art, I agree with that. No offense to Phil Jackson, Tex, or the triangle, but to win a championship, the most important ingredient is a talented roster of players that complement each other. That is what championships are built around.

Art, I agree with that. No offense to Phil Jackson, Tex, or the triangle, but to win a championship, the most important ingredient is a talented roster of players that complement each other. That is what championships are built around.

I'm a spur fan crashing in on your blogs. First of all I hate when anybody says we beat ourselves and Phil said that. Plain and simple Denver was just the better team yesterday. Do I think they would beat the Lakers if they were to meet in the conference finals of course not but they are playing better ball without Melo, maybe they're just more determined. Also 4 of the 6 games the Spurs lost was because Duncan was out. The coaches for the Spurs actually care about the health of their players. Kobe could have a broken leg and they would still want him to play how sad! Here's the way it's going down if Spurs and Lakers meet in the conference finals and L.A. is healthy they will beat us if not Kobe can score 50pts. all night long they wont win.

The Bulls and Lakers had the personnel to win. Great players have won without the triangle but the triangle hasn't been a winning strategy without great players. I find it hard to believe the Lakers or Bulls wouldn't have still won without it but since they do use it and they do win with it, there's no reason to change that now.

Posted by: Bay to LA | April 04, 2011 at 01:43 PM
=====

Ah, if it isn't Mr. What-If offering his opinion that "what -if" the Bulls and the Lakers used a different offense, they would have won championships anyway. Why don't you just take it a step further and say "what-if" Phil Jackson didn't coach these great players, they would have won 11 championships anyway.

One of the main reasons Phil Jackson has rings for every finger and one on his big toe is because of the triangle offense. Doug Collins refused to embrace it and was shown the door, while Phil Jackson was an eager pupil under Tex Winter. Phil Jackson UNDERSTOOD that making maximum use of the 24 second clock by sharing the ball, but also having a player who can create his own offense if need be, was a formula for winning championships. His first mentor, Red Holzman, taught a similar offensive philosophy with the early 70's Knicks. Much like the triangle, Walt "Clyde" Frazier played the lead guard in two guard offense first with Dick Barnett playing the other guard on the 1970 championship team and then with Earl "the Pearl" Monroe as his backcourt mate on the 1973 championship team. Yet I digress ...

The point is that much like the triangle, the Knicks offense was predicated on moving with out the ball and cutting to certain spots on the floor and hitting the open man. This was in the days before the 3 point shot and before ridiculous offenses such as the 7 second or less offense. The triangle offense is an offense designed to win championships. I know that YOU don't see much of a difference between the way the Lakers play in the post-season vs. the regular season, but ANY NBA coach, player, or analyst will tell you that the playoffs are much more of a half court game because teams hustle back in transition and load up on defense much more than the regular season. Yes, of course you need great players to win championships, but not every great player is made for the triangle. The Lakers have built a high IQ team to deal with the complexities of the offense. To say that you find it "hard to believe the Lakers or Bulls wouldn't have still won without it" is a comment that simply minimizes the greatness of both Tex Winter AND Phil Jackson, and frankly, borders on the absurd. What is it about Phil Jackson's success that you don't understand?

Bay to LA...

Are you the Regular Season Police and vice versa...

Can't explain how I came to that conclusion...

Might have come to me in a dream while sleeping...lol


@ART ... “Do we not judge the posts we read based on the content of the post as opposed to the writers handle?”
...
I do but it appears that you do not. If you thought this post was intelligent, we will have to agree to disagree. Not only does the poster know nothing about the Triangle but then digresses into a fictional account of Phil Jackson trying to install Pau Gasol as the team leader which subsequently led to Pau’s poor play earlier in the year, followed by more ouchhh style bashing of Pau. My criticism of the post was based on the ridiculous misconceptions and information in the post. It had little to do with the sobriquet of the poster. Are you the Art from FL or a different Art?
...
“There isn't a "triangle" defense, is there?”
...
In a way, there is because one of the basic tenants behind the design and execution of the Triangle Offense is the recognition that basketball play is continuous and thus offense and defense are inextricably linked. That’s why you often hear Phil refer to defensive problems as having been caused by poor execution of the Triangle Offense. In other words, when you run it properly, players are always in position to defend in transition. If you take early shots or long jumpers rather than running the offense, you create fast breaks for the opposition. That’s Triangle Defense.
...
As to whether Phil and the Bulls and Lakers would have won using a different system, we’ll never know. No one is saying the Triangle is the only way to win. What posters like this don’t realize is that the Triangle Offense is just part of how Phil was able to get Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant to play team basketball rather than just becoming selfish players oriented to playing for stats. The Triangle Offense emphasizes team work and ball and player movement but also allows for isolation plays by any player on the team (which is why we have so many players with post-up skills) as well as pick-and-roll plays from multiple places on the floor. To say it had no effect on Phil’s coaching success would be as naive as believing what this poster is trying to sell. It’s just more ouchhh.
.......................................
TOM

"Bay to LA...

Are you the Regular Season Police and vice versa...

Can't explain how I came to that conclusion...

Might have come to me in a dream while sleeping...lol

Posted by: LEWSTRS | April 04, 2011 at 02:50 PM "

No and I am stumped as to who it is as well.

"Ah, if it isn't Mr. What-If offering his opinion that "what -if" the Bulls and the Lakers used a different offense, they would have won championships anyway. Why don't you just take it a step further and say "what-if" Phil Jackson didn't coach these great players, they would have won 11 championships anyway.

Posted by: KobeMVP888 | April 04, 2011 at 02:38 PM "

You really think it's absurd to think that Phil could lead this Lakers team or the Bulls team from the 90's to championships without using the triangle? I just don't think it is. That the triangle is the only thing that gets them over the hump? I just don't see it that way. It is a method that has worked but I don't think it's the only road that leads to that destination.

Bulimic great analysis even though I didn't agree with everything that you said. I believe the triangle enables the scrub players to be more effective. Obviously mj,kobe, shaq and pippen could win in any system. If kobe or mj had played for pop or riley i am sure they would have won some rings. but the triangle enhances the skill of a steve kerr, john paxson, dfish, bj etc so when a team also has to deal with the great individual play of mj or kobe it is overwhelming. i would have loved to have seen phil coach a team without the 2 greatest players ever namely mj and kobe. but we will never know.

Well I'm just glad we finally lost a game. Lets face it, we were due. Its gets boring after going 17-1 with all our chest pumping and band wagoning! That God we now have "The Bulimic 1/2 Empty Glass" to remind us of how sucky not only our team is but the triangle offense system that we run(when Kobe lets us lol). He is right, our 5 rings and the Bulls 6 rings are completely meaningless...the triangle sucks! Where has this genius been all this time? Under a rock I'll bet...lol

I dont think the Lakers or the Spurs want to play the Nuggets in the playoffs. The Nuggets are young and can run the floor. Defense, Defense and more defense is the Nuggets new way.

But I think if Bynum stays healthy, Lakers are very tough to beat. Lakers will need Bynum in the post season.

Another thing about the triangle is that it helps maintain the floor balance on offense that leads to better transition defense.

BTW, the comments from **bulimic**sound an awful lot like pfunk36.

There's only one Nugget that worries me. That's Raymond Felton. For whatever reason, he plays with supreme confidence against the Lakers. Felton is the reason Denver won that game. His attitude trickled down to the rest of Denver's players.

2 loses in a row for Lakers and 2 wins in a row for the spurs things are turning around. I don't think that L.A. is going to catch the #1 seed. Which in my opinion doesn't really matter. What matters is who's going to stay healthy. And like I said before the Lakers organization will let Kobe play with a broken keg if he had to in order to win a championship. Pau Gasol got a little banged up the other night with Denver.

The following problems the Lakers have to address. Kobe is no longer the prolific scoring machine. The management should begin to make adjustments. First distribute the scoring among Bynum,Gasol,Odom and the bench. Next year the team has to bring fresh young talent and younger legs. The point guard should be able to score and provide relief for Kobe. Kobe has difficulty make those impossible shots over bigger taller defenders(Wilson Chandler).The inconsistencies and mental errors on excution of offensive plays and defensive lapses have contibuted to a large number of losses the Lakers should have won. This team has to make some fundamental changes to be a perennial winner and championship contender. My opinion is the Lakers will have an extremely difficult time to repeat. I have been a Laker fan since childhood and Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were my heroes. Is the management listening? Review some of the game films see how these defiencies have caused losses when the Lakers should have won. Take this analysis very seriously and evaluate this situation and do not take a quick and inexpensive fix.


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