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A look at the Lakers' poor perimeter defense in 109-100 loss to Dallas Mavericks

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4:55 - 4:43, second quarter

After posting up on Lakers forward Lamar Odom on the near side and noticing all of his teammates collapsing in the lane, Mavericks forward Dirk Nowitzki kicks the ball out to guard Jason Kidd at the top of the key. Kobe Bryant, Ron Artest and Derek Fisher immediately close out on the perimeter, with Bryant marking on Kidd, Artest guarding Brian Cardinal and Fisher matching with Jason Terry. After he received a pass from Kidd, Cardinal drove right past Artest while Terry cut baseline. Fisher denied Terry penetration but then moved away from him, apparently expecting Cardinal to drive the lane. That left Terry open for a far-corner three-pointer, which gave Dallas a 47-40 lead.

4:05 - 3:57, second quarter

Nowitzki this time operated on the far post against Andrew Bynum. The sequence caused Odom to shift down into the paint to keep Nowitzki from attacking the lane and Fisher to cut toward him to deny the passing lane. Terry cut into the lane, causing Fisher to follow him and Odom to get distracted by the fact that Kidd remained wide open at the top of the key. Nowitzki kicked the ball out to Kidd, who drilled a three-pointer for a 49-43 advantage.

3:07 - 2:55, second quarter

Fisher cut baseline and flashed toward the near side of the court after Pau Gasol set a pin down on Terry. That gave Fisher an angle to drive left into the lane, especially after Kidd decided to remain on Bryant at the top of the key instead of sliding over to the free-throw line to help. Fisher angled himself pretty well on a drive to the lane, but he didn't use the backboard on a leaner and the ball rimmed out. Dallas then received the ball, as Kidd pushed the ball in the open floor. Before Bryant could mark up with Terry on the near side, he drained a three-pointer to cut the Lakers' lead to 49-48.

7:57 - 7:39, third quarter

As he posted up on DeShawn Stevenson, Lakers guard Kobe Bryant created a sliver of space for him to drive the line. He did so successfully, but he didn't account for Stevenson sticking to his right as Bryant blew past him. That allowed Stevenson to swipe the ball out of Bryant's hands. Kidd picked up the loose ball, dribbled left past Gasol and immediately passed on the far side to Stevenson after Fisher cut off Kidd's driving lane at the top of the key. Fisher ran out to contest Stevenson's three-pointer, which rimmed out and went into the hands of Tyson Chandler because Gasol and Ron Artest failed to box out. Chandler tipped the ball over Gasol, grabbed it and kicked the ball out to Kidd on the near side. No one was there to contest the shot, which cut the Lakers' lead to 62-57.

4:06 - 3:53, third quarter

Bryant weaved in the lane past Terry, through a double team between Terry and Kidd and avoided a blocked shot from Chandler. There are positives and negatives to Bryant's jump passing. He has the ability to dish on a dime, but sometimes teammates aren't ready for that to happen. Bynum didn't anticipate Bryant's pass, resulting in a loose ball, which Chandler picked up. After Kidd received a pass at the top of the key, Artest marked up on him. That left Terry wide open on the near side, though Artest slid over once Terry received the ball. No one accounted for Kidd, however, and Fisher's late reaction toward a close-out allowed Kidd to drain a three-pointer and take a 70-69 lead.

1:12 - 1:02, third quarter

After Shawn Marion set a pick on Steve Blake at the top of the key, Terry drove left but was denied an open lane thanks to Odom's help defense. With Brendan Haywood setting a down screen on Shannon Brown, however, there was no one to account for Kidd on the far side. Brown had trouble fighting through the screen, allowing Kidd to drain another three-pointer to widen the gap to 79-71.

:36 - :31, third quarter

As Terry flashed toward the far side, Marion set a screen for Blake. While Blake tried curling around the pick, Gasol's pick-up on Terry proved pointless considering he blew right past Gasol and Odom's help defense remained spotty at best. Luke Walton confronted Terry in the paint, prompting him to pass out to a wide-open Sasha Pavlovic on the near side. His trey extended Dallas' lead to 82-71.

6:26 - 6:09, fourth quarter

Nowitzki set a screen on Brown for Terry, although Odom immediately switched on him as he drove on the far-side perimeter. Nowitkzi then received a pass on the left block while still matching up with Brown. He forced Nowitzki to lose his handle, but he immediately fired a shot to Terry on the far corner. Despite Odom marking him, Terry drained a three-pointer to give the Mavericks a 97-81 cushion.

-- Mark Medina

twitter.com/latmedina

E-mail the Lakers blog at mgmedin@gmail.com

Photo: Lakers forwards Luke Walton, left, and Pau Gasol right, try to contain Dallas guard Jason Terry during the first half of the Lakers' 109-100 loss Wednesday. Credit: Larry W. Smith / EPA

 
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Power. It's intoxicating LOL!

They don't care about the regular season because they think it won't affect the outcome of the playoffs (and maybe they are right) ...

... but so they are disrespecting the game and the fans.

I could understand if they were hurt or had not talent.
But it's just laziness and arrogance.

Ever wonder how much of players’ performance (offense & defense) is influenced by incentives or disincentives inherent in player flat rate compensation contracts (i.e., "$X" amount regardless of performance)? Perhaps players’ performance during the season would improve substantially if their pay depended in part on their performance.

LJP305 ,

You worry too much.

Magia32: My question and comment are not a function of worry. Fans pay the salaries of NBA players as well as all professional athletes by purchasing tickets, cable TV subscriptions, sponsors’ products and team/player merchandise or memorabilia. It’s not worry if Fans ask if the money they pay can be allocated to reward better performance and achieve a better product if that can be done in a reasonable way.

What would be the criteria for performance pay. Games started, games won, minutes, shots, field goal percentage, free throws, rebounds, assists? How do we measure Artest who is in for defense or Bynum who has missed most of the season? Does Lamar have to come off the bench-can Kobe take every shot he wants to build up his stats? Would Luke have to pay the Lakers for just carrying his sorry Arse! This performance pay gets very interesting and complicated.

Please chime in with your two-cents worth on performance pay!

Art -FL Lakers fan,

you wrote: You kinda lost me in that post of yours addressed to LT and 888 with all the trophies and rings Kobe needs to give away. I'm just can't figure out what your point is.
Is it that the Lakers need to focus on defense?
Kobe should shoot more?

my response:

1. Yes, the Lakers need to focus more on defense. You may have heard me
say such things as: "Defense wins championships". You might have also
read the link I wrote on how defense really does win championships from
basketball-reference.com.

2. Kobe's shooting is not the problem nor has ever been the problem.

The point of my post is that LakerTom & KobeMVP888 have made some
statements, in direct opposition to mine, and I wanted to see if they were
having a change of opinion based upon how the Lakers are currently
playing or on what Bynum, [ the man-child, the ever developing one,
the next face of the franchise ] had to say.

A lot of people look at simplistic statistics and make an opinion. This is
different then looking at statistics and the context in which they're made.

I have said: Statistics don't tell the whole story, but without statistics the
story can't be told.

As a general rule of thumb, Pau, LO & Bynum should ALL be averaging
~ 10 rebounds per game. When they're not, there's a problem. Defense is
about hustle. No crap about ..."I'm not getting enough shots". Play like you
want to win. Play like you *WANT* that 150K you're getting for 48 mins of
work.

b/n 2 7-ftrs and 1 6-10/6-11 we got a whopping total of 5 offensive
rebounds. Kobe had as many offensive rebounds as Bynum did.

That's just SAD!

I'll tell you a secret: I want Bynum to be a BEAST. I WANT HIM TO BE THE
BEST CENTER IN THE NBA!

Here's the thing: You don't get to be a beast with this kinda of effort. You
don't get the calls when you don't fight for position. The refs won't give you
the nod if they've watched you play like a 10 yr. old girl for 6 mos.

Have you noticed how things have changed?

What happened to those glorious bandwagons of 72 wins?
Breaking the longest winning streak?
Multiple all-stars on our team?

Those sorry, kool-aid sippin' slackers have squandered all that good will &
quite probably lost HCA.

Can we still win it? Yes! Will we win it like this? NO!

Can we kindly stop with cow excrement? Can we stop preening like our poop
doesn't stink? Will we finally stop resting on our fat "laurels" and play like
the games actually count instead of it's only "practice season" ?

And finally, will some of the GHFers stop swilling cheap vodka and tell the
truth? [ I'm assuming that Justanothermambafan drinks the good stuff. ]

Mr. Laker: I contend all of the issues you raise and more have been addresses in a July 2010 new CBA proposal by Elrod Enchilada, a RealGM.Com writer at: http://www.realgm.com/src_feature_pieces/957/20100720/the_path_to_a_permanent_peace_between_nba_players_and_owners/#ixzz0vSwMG4ifre I know the writer's name causes one to pause, but it is a real proposal and is in my opinion much better way to compensate players than what exists today. And it allocates to players the same percentage of revenues as under the current CBA.

Did I miss the big parade in Dallas? Did Dirk stand on the steps of City Hall and holler "CAN YOU DIG IT"?

Magia32: My question and comment are not a function of worry. Fans pay the salaries of NBA players as well as all professional athletes by purchasing tickets, cable TV subscriptions, sponsors’ products and team/player merchandise or memorabilia. It’s not worry if Fans ask if the money they pay can be allocated to reward better performance and achieve a better product if that can be done in a reasonable way.

Posted by: LJP305 | January 20, 2011 at 12:57 PM

You can't be serious? This has to be a joke? If it's not, oh boy, you get what you pay for. It's a buyers market, and from someone studying, the very things you mentioned and how they really work, all I can say is; buyer beware. The performance of an athelete in a given sporting event is a crapshoot. It's sounds as if you think the athletes owe you something, they don't owe you or me or anybody else anything. They play, you pay or watch, the chips always fall where they may. I don't think you should half a glass half empty approach to a game and or an insular viewpoint. It's always been this way, since the dawn of glory and the agony of defeat.

Mr. Laker: For sake of discussion, Elrod uses the revenues total for the most recent figures provided by the NBA for the coming season, based upon 2009-10 performance. The pot for labor will be $2.077 billion. Elrod would take roughly 3.5 percent, $77 million, out for a fund for injured players, which he discusses in detail, leaving an even $2 billion for player salaries. This makes the math a lot easier for our illustration.

Player salaries will be determined by three criteria: 1. base/performance pay based upon how many minutes a player plays (70 Percent of total, or $1.4 billion); 2. all-star pay to reward the better players in the league (20 percent of total, or $400 million); and, 3. team pay, to reward players on the best teams (10 percent of total, or $200 million). Elrod discusses in detail how his proposal is a great improvement over the current system.

Hey, good news today. I finally got hired by Notre Dame as a reading specialist.

And then there's this:

Sources close to the situation told ESPN.com that Stojakovic is determined to return to the Western Conference and join a playoff contender once he clears waivers and becomes a free agent, with three teams at the top of his list: Dallas, New Orleans and the Los Angeles Lakers.

I guess we could use a shooter ot two, but I would prefer one that can shoot and play D (Sasha anyone?)

Wes

hobbit - yes. Yes I do drink the good stuff LOL!

Yes I'm a GHF'er and proud of it. However, along with waving pompom's I do understand that a continuation of the current trend (if you want to call it that) isn't a good thing, and it certainly won't get it done when it matters most. It's irritating as hell to watch them bumble along out there like they forgot what game they were playing or how long it lasts.

That said, I do believe the team will get it together and win it all again this year. They know what it takes, and no current amount of slippage or lackadaisacal play dictates what they will be doing come playoff time. The team is made for the playoff's. Constructed to win a best-of-7 series regardless of HCA or not - and yes I want it but no they don't need it.

So for my Lakers experience this year I'll do what I always do - cheer for my team and pray for good health. Defer to PJ and Kobe when it comes to commenting on the State of the Lakers. Keep my pompoms in good working order. Have a bottle of vodka - and a defibrillator - handy during the games. Hang on the game chats & the RC for fun. I've experienced a fantastic outcome the last 2 years doing that, so I'm sticking with what works come hell or high water!! Join me, won't you hobbit? I promise to hold your hand when it gets scary..... :)

Congratz, Wesjoe!

Real simple energy, defense, hustle. Te Lakers are lacking all 3.

Hey, good news today. I finally got hired by Notre Dame as a reading specialist.

Posted by: wesjoenixon | January 20, 2011 at 01:29 PM

That's great news, Wes. Congrats. You earned your keep. Happy for you. Stay keen.

I lack spelling however.

Thanks guys...Hi Justa!

Wes

WESJOEJULIOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo

CONGRATULATIONS MY FRIEND!!!

That's awesome news!

What do you think about Peja coming here Justa? Do we have room for him?

Wes

ok again. energy, Defense, hustle. Lakers are lacking all three. It has to change. PJ did not lose this game. The players did. Pray for a difference against the Thuggets.

There's some great sales happening at Blockbuster video with the bankruptcy closing down stores. I got Jaws, The Conversation, Band of Brothers disc 3 (which I didn't have), Drunken Monkey (kung fu film), Drugstore Cowboy staring Matt Dylan, and Master and Commander, far side of the world--all for under $25...

Good day today....

Wes

sean: Likely when the horseless carriage first appeared on the scene, skeptics said it would never work. Those skeptics were so focused on horseback ridding, stagecoaches and buckboards that they could not believe/vision what the market had in store. If you approach this discussion with an open mind rather limiting your thinking to “the chips always fall where they may,” something positive might result from our exchanges. If most people accepted the viewpoint you expressed, the tea party folks would have stayed silent -- but that didn't happen.

I'm just happy to leave the unemployment line behind Justa. It really feels good to have a day filled with work rather than soap operas.

I've had enough of Stepheno.

Wes

Wes - hmmmmmm a slow, oft-injured SF who isn't producing like he used to, and who's not known for his defense. Don't we have one of those already? (just kidding) Peja's not your earlier-this-century player anymore. I don't think he'd find a place with the Lakers, wes. On one hand, the guy may be willing to do whatever it takes to win a ring. On the other hand, there probably isn't much gas in his tank. Either way I think he'll end up somewhere else.

You just hangin wes? Come over to the RC.....

@NUGGETS COUNTRY... Well, this “Polly-Anna” agrees with you 100% on Kobe’s defense. When I heard how poorly Kidd was shooting, I told Mrs. LakerTom that I would bet money the guy was going to have a great game because Kobe would be salivating to play free safety.
...
I thought Pau played a pretty good game overall, especially defending Dirk 1-on-1 but I wish the guy would expend a little energy on help defense for a change. The minute Drew leaves the game, the path to the rim seems to open up wide for the other team to make dunks and layups.
...
As for Phil and his son Luke, what else can you say other than dumb moves by both. The last chance the Lakers had was killed by Luke bricking two ill-advised early 3’s that launched Mavs fast breaks. Last time I ever defense Luke Walton’s basketball IQ. Those were dumb plays.
...
Finally, I don’t know what is going on with Drew right now but he definitely seems to have regressed over the last few games. Unless Drew turns it up, we are not going to be strong enough to three-peat, especially since Pau provides zero help defense protecting the rim.
..........................................
TOM

I'll try to stop by there Justa..

Wes

Mr. Laker: For sake of discussion, Elrod uses the revenues total for the most recent figures provided by the NBA for the season, based upon 2009-10 performance. The pot for labor would be $2.077 billion. Elrod would take roughly 3.5 percent, $77 million, out for a fund for injured players, which he discusses in detail, leaving an even $2 billion for player salaries. This makes the math a lot easier for our illustration.

Player salaries will be determined by three criteria: 1. base/performance pay based upon how many minutes a player plays (70 Percent of total, or $1.4 billion); 2. all-star pay to reward the better players in the league (20 percent of total, or $400 million); and, 3. team pay, to reward players on the best teams (10 percent of total, or $200 million).

I feel Elrod's proposal provides a good framework to improving the current compensation system.

SO, what's it going to take for the lakers to play like a championshp team? i 'm afraid that hopefully, it's going to require an ass-kicking by the celtics next weekend!i've been watching the celtics play their last few games and you know what? not ONE mention of tv shows! only an anger to get back what they believe is THEIRS!!

hobbitmage,

I don't take issue with anything you wrote.
You do seem to most often focus your commentary on Pau and Drew.
Your comments on defense/rebounds are solid points.

That being said, while you do a good job of pointing out the deficiencies of Bynum and Gasol most often, you leave out the rest of the team, specifically Kobe.

My point is hows about let's see some more diverse commentary instead of just picking on Pau and Drew. If you are going to be critical of the team, (which I have no problem with as I enjoy reading the good with the bad,) then let's include the other guys too.

How about a little more defense from Kobe. Yes, we all know what Kobe has accomplished, but we are talking about what have done you done for me lately.
And we aren't talking about offense, the focus from you seems to be defense.

Now, I realize many readers including you are card carrying members of kobeisgod.net so I hesitate to even mention that maybe he has some issues that need addressed because I fear stalking, being mugged or punched in the throat, or worse, all virtually speaking of course. Actually, I'm not a closet Kobe hater either, or even an outed one, just having a little fun (with that last sentence).

I don't mean to single Kobe out but it's just that if problems with the teams defense are going to be discussed he needs to be in the conversation the same as Gasol, Bynum, Fish, Artest, LO and the rest and you conspicuously leave him out of your criticisms.

Wondering if you saw the game recap from Dexter at Silver Screen and Roll.

A tidbit:

"Everything went to shit in a seven-minute span in the third. With 7:52 left in the period, the Lakers had the ball and were up eight. Kobe drove and got stripped by DeShawn Stevenson. He thought he was fouled, so instead of getting back on D he spent what seemed like half an hour complaining to the refs. Meanwhile, the Mavs pushed the ball to the other end and had enough time to take a wide-open three, miss it, get the offensive rebound and take another wide-open three, which they of course made, all before Kobe got his ass back on D."

Why am I focusing on Kobe?
Simple.
He is the unquestionable, undoubtable, indisputable leader of the team.
Kobe has not been "bringing it" every game on the defensive end.
Neither has the rest of the team.
You don't strike me as the type to put much stock in coincidence.
Neither am I.

Can we still win it? Yes! Will we win it like this? NO!

Posted by: hobbitmage | January 20, 2011 at 01:07 PM
====

How many times did you say that last season?

To me, here's what is relevant. Never mind the sub-par play during the practice season. We have a head coach who has guided three other teams to three-peats who kept their key pieces in place just like these Lakers have.

1) Our record at this point last season was 33-11, but we had played 26 games at home. This season, we have played 22 home games, so for all intents and purposes it's a wash and I don't care who the wins and losses have come against and how we won or lost the games.

2) The '93 Bulls were 29-15, the '98 Bulls 31-13 and the '02 Lakers 32-12 at this point in the season. In other words, Phil Jackson has been there and done that, and I don't care how different the league was or how his teams was playing. There is NOTHING like experience and I am confident that under his watchful eye and guidance, Coach Eleven Rings will know exactly what buttons to push because of the vast well of knowledge he has to draw from.

All I care is that we finish anywhere from 1 -4 in the Western Conference and, most important, that our players are HEALTHY for the playoffs.

1-2-3 RING! #17 coming up STRONG!

P.S.- hobbitmage, I starting reading your post from the prior thread, but it didn't hold my interest, so I have no take on whatever point you were trying to make. I'll leave minutiae like sound bites and box scores for others who might be interested in things that I consider to be irrelevant or "intangible" if you will.

as i suggested maybe an embarassment at the hand of boston will get their attention

sean: Likely when the horseless carriage first appeared on the scene, skeptics said it would never work. Those skeptics were so focused on horseback ridding, stagecoaches and buckboards that they could not believe/vision what the market had in store. If you approach this discussion with an open mind rather limiting your thinking to “the chips always fall where they may,” something positive might result from our exchanges. If most people accepted the viewpoint you expressed, the tea party folks would have stayed silent -- but that didn't happen.

Posted by: LJP305 | January 20, 2011 at 01:41 PM

@LJP305- How do I respond to this??? I'm talking about the business of sports and you're talking about horeless carriages and the Tea Party.

I'll leave you with this thought:

Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you- Rashi

You took a simple conversation and turned into a Schrodinger's cat conversation.

Bynum was 100% right when he said that the team played "lazy defense".

It was as if the Lakers played decent ball in the first half then said "oh well the game is in the bag, let us not waste one ounce of extra effort and cruise to a win".

It was clear LAL did not lose the game because Dallas is a better team. Far from that. It was clear LAL lost because it got lazy, complacent and out-hustled by Mavs.

LAL lost because it DID NOT want to win as badly as the Mavs.

It is time to question the team's HEART. They certainly do not play like they deserve to win another ring.

Are the Lakers a bunch of LAZY QUITTERS? it certainly look like it.

They can say the politically correct things but the players speak the truth through their actions on the court and their actions said that they are tired of winning. That they are tired of exerting effort for just a stupid basketball game. They are getting paid the same so why should they care about craps like PRIDE?

Old man Kidd who couldn't score a pt in his previous game suddenly looked like his All-Star heyday self again being left WIDE OPEN to drain jumpers after jumpers?

Old man Terry got the same welcome treatment from LAL to take his time (and space) to drain jumpers after jumpers as well?

And this no-name kid Pavlovic Who? who sliced and diced his way through LAL defense like it's not even there?

And Shawn Marion suddenly looked like his old dominating self in Phoenix again.

Lakers players should be ashamed to call themselves champions.

Champions without HEARTS? they way they are playing somebody should ask the team if they have became accustomed to losing and enjoy it. Yeah that's right maybe the team has grown to like to be called LOSERS?


sean: The horseless carriage had a major impact on business in this Country and the world, so using that analogy as a springboard for saying that ideas for improving sports business are worthy of consideration and discussion is not a stretch. But if “the chips always fall where they may,” is indicative of your thought processes, I understand why you would leave rather than engage the conversation.

By the way, just to add my $.02 about this season to date, our two superstars are Kobe and Pau. Kobe's minutes are down about 5 mpg from last season and he's been monitoring his right knee and mangled fingers. Pau is pacing himself as best he can under the circumstances, which included Bynum not playing the first part of the season and Ratliff being out. Pau Gasol is a champion both on the world stage and in the NBA, and he knows how to ratchet it up when it counts.

So when you combine those two factors and understand that every other player on the team is a role player, there's your obvious answer to the malaise and complacency we've been watching. You can throw in the fact that Bynum is still about a month away from being 100% if you want.

In the playoffs, Kobe's minutes will increase, Pau's focus will return and Bynum will become the consistent force we need in the paint. Or hopefully he'll at least just be there in the paint.

So there's my list of "excuses," not that I give a rat's ass.

Lakers started out fantastic in the first half but it's been the trend for them to all of a sudden shut down defensively in the second half. I found myself yelling at the tv wondering why they were just standing there, leaving Kidd open for all the 3's, letting the Mavs make layups without trying to block the shot?! It was like watching the Lakers run laps up & down the court....needless to say, very disappointing! Where was the momentum like they had for the Thunder game???
No wonder Phil was irritated with their defensive performance. This defensive slow down trend in the second half needs to change & QUICK!

@HOBBITMAGE... How are you doing? I’ve been sicker than a dog this last week with the flu and today is my first day back at work. All three of my grandkids have been out of school sick all week and I’m already down four players for my grandson’s CYO basketball practice tonight.
...
While I sometimes wish Drew would not be so naive and honest when dealing with the media, I think his comment about the team just stopping playing hard defense when they get up by 10 is unfortunately true. We’ve seen this happen the last three years but never as bad as this year.
...
What I think would have been a more accurate statement to make would have been that when we get ahead by ten, we stopped playing smart basketball period. By that, I mean not only did we stop playing defense on the perimeter but we also stopped running our offense and playing inside-out basketball. Instead, we turned the ball over and took early 3-point shots that just served to play right into the Mavs hands giving them easy transition opportunities to score.
...
We can argue forever the chicken and egg debate as to whether good defense creates good offense or vice versa but the reality for this team with their size and slowness in transition is that they need to run their offense to setup their defense. Regardless of their intention on defense, turnovers and ill-advised jumpers early in the shot clock are what are killing us.
...
While his offense has been sputtering lately, I still see Drew as doing a fine job anchoring our interior help defense. Our defensive problems are the porous perimeter defense that launches penetrating player after penetrating player at Drew when he is in the game and Pau Gasol’s refusal to challenge anybody else’s man attacking the rim when he is playing center. Last night, Pau did an excellent job on Dirk but made zero effort to protect the rim as a help defender.
...
As for Pau being the MVP, that was always just dumb comments by fans infatuated by Pau’s stats without recognizing the lack of integrity and effort behind his play. Pau should have worked out all summer to get stronger. You can complain about Drew going to South Africa, but what irked me is Pau taking off the summer and then playing soft and exhausted.
...
As for Kobe being more of a facilitator, I still think that is the best role for the team overall. Last night, he was terrific and stayed within the game plan to perfection. Now if he would stop free lancing on defense too, then maybe we would have won the game. After all, it was not layups and dunks while Drew was in the game that burned us defensively. It was the atrocious man-to-man perimeter defense that left too many wide open 3-point shooters and Pau Gasol’s total lack of effort protecting the paint and rim. That’s what Drew should have said.
..........................................
TOM

earlier in the week i addressed the Lakers 3 point defense, or should i say "lack of defense". i don't know what it is. bynum says their lazy, don't know about that. what i think is L. A. is arrogant in their approach to defense. i'm sorry, i know kidd is not one of the great scorers in the game, however, he is a professional basketball player. if you give a pro enough good looks.....he'll knock 'em down. i almost get the impression that the Lakers don't feel like they have to guard opposing players when they shoot 3's.....WRONGO! until they start guarding the perimeter better, teams are going to take advantage of their blase attempt at the defending the 3! get your heads out of your ASSES L.A.!

That’s what Drew should have said.
..........................................
TOM
Posted by: LakerTom |
===============

Good point.
But do you really think Drew is going to call out Kobe and the other perimeter players?
In public?
Are you serious?
:)

When Drew does that, he will have snatched the pebble from Kobes hand.

Mr. Laker: Under Elrod’s Base-Performance Pay, every team is allocated 12 full salary slots, and then three half-salary slots, for a roster of 15. The three players on the 15 man roster who are on the 12 man game roster the least get the one-half of the base salary. If a player only plays part of a season in the NBA, their salary is prorated accordingly.

The players who play the most deserve to be paid more. Most teams have rotations that run no more than nine deep, so the 270 players in the league who play the most should be compensated. The criterion for this allocation is strictly the average number of minutes per-game, for a minimum of 55 games. (If a player plays less than 55 games, their total number of minutes is still divided by 55 to determine their average. A DNP-CD counts as a game played.) If a player is injured for as much as 30 percent of a season he is not penalized.
Players ranked 1-90: $6.5 million each
Players ranked 91-180: $5 million each
Players ranked 181-270: $2.5 million each
Players ranked 271-360: $1 million each
Players ranked 361-450*: $500,000 each
* the last three guys on each team’s 15 man roster

This is not good enough,where are the champions?Are they playing like one?Where are the comparison with MJ and another player.Is this team as good as the 90s Chicago Bulls?Will lakers beat that 72 record set by the Bulls?Is this present team is as good as pass teams .All the answers are no.My point is so far in the season this Laker team have not beaten a contender for the Nba finals.They have lost to the Mavs,Miami,Spurs,Orlando and the Clippers.Well if this team plays the Celtics well they will be humiliated especially by Shaq.I am a Laker fan but come on Kobe you are not good enough.

sean: The horseless carriage had a major impact on business in this Country and the world, so using that analogy as a springboard for saying that ideas for improving sports business are worthy of consideration and discussion is not a stretch. But if “the chips always fall where they may,” is indicative of your thought processes, I understand why you would leave rather than engage the conversation.

Posted by: LJP305 | January 20, 2011 at 02:11 PM

If you're trying to be intellectually superior and disrespect me, fine, I'm not getting involved.

Maybe your horseless carriage analogy would be of some relevance, had the Second Industrial Revolution not taken place and we still hadn't discovered Capitalism.

I'm tired of this mindless, arbitrary intellectual banter. This is a Basketball blog. After I gave that quote, I'm not surprised you responded.

I'm a simple kind of man, and people have generally have a favorable opinion of that. I'm trying to be polite. I'm talking about Basketball, not the Tea Party.

If you're , subtle jab at my opinions and contentions, makes you feel smarter, more intellectually superior, than mission accomplished. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are.

The chips always fall where they may. I guess you don't play a lot of Poker.

We play at Fulltiltpoker.net LOL!!!

Mr. Laker: Base-Performance Pay is just one of 3 main pay categories under Elrod’s proposal. The other 2 are All-Star Bonus Pay (encompassing MVP voting covering 25 players, and All-Conference positioning covering 100 players), and Team Performance Pay wherein Players on the best teams get compensated for contributing to a winning team. If you apply this system to actual NBA players for last season, for example, the truly great superstars -- LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade and Kevin Durant -- all make in the $16-18 million range.

The 20th-25th best player, an all-star but not a superstar, would get in the $13 million to $15 million range. From there players salaries would head down to the 90th best player, who is getting in the $8-10 million range, depending upon how his team fares. The lower-level starter – not a top 100 player -- and the first sub off the bench, would make between $5 million and $7 million. The journeyman deep rotation player, the 7th, 8th and 9th guy in the rotation, would make around $2.5 million, plus their team bonus. The base pay for rookies who don’t play and marginal roster guys would be about the same as it is today, unless they were on a playoff team, then it would be better.

What game were you guys watching. I can say without a doubt there will be no 3peat this year. The rot has set in on this team and there is no getting away from that. I blame Kobe because he has let the Phil Jackson, the media and Pau Gasol handicapped his game to the point that he seems like a whipped husband out there on the court. If this Laker team is to repeat, it won't be by playing this church league brand of basketball where everyone gets a touch and a chance to make fools of themselves. Everybody shooting 3's, no hustle on defense and they only run down the court on the offensive end. Every basketball team has a pecking order and this one does not realize it pecking order. Complaining about shots, making excuses all the time like ( we didn't play any defense or we are over confident sometimes) and just being lazy has made this team prime for a trade. 2/5 of the roster is completely useless and the other 2/5 over value themselves. Kobe needs to get back to being Kobe and forget about keeping Gasol happy. If I were Kobe I would tell him either play or sit down but shut up complaining all the time. He needs to re-stamp his authority on this team or watch his opportunity for that sixth ring go up in smoke.

LJP305,

MrLaker posed some good questions but you didn't address any of them except to say that performance only accounted for 1/3 of total comp.

The questions remain.

If players comp is partially based on minutes played, how you going to get them to come out of the game?
Kobe and many others would demand 40+ mins.
And what about during blowouts when teams rest their starters?
Or teams that want to rest an aging star to save him up for the playoffs.
They get penalized in comp for doing so well they get to rest and yet it cuts into their pay.
Or defensive specialists.

There is no mention of the criteria to determine the "best players".
That will be very problematic.

The idea of performance based comp is a good idea, but I don't see how it can be realistically accomplished and I doubt it very much that this will go very far as there really isn't any fair way to evaluate or rate the players without establishing clear, concrete data to support a players rating.

This dog won't hunt and if the NBA execs hold firm to this type of a system there will be no basketball next year.

Keep this in mind, since the Lakers moved to LA, no Laker team with four game losing streak has ever went on to win a championship. For the matter, no Phil Jackson coached team with four game losing streak has ever went on to win a championship. Of course, there can be a first for Lakers and Phil. Of course other teams recently with losing streaks of four or more have went to win it all. Most recently the 2005-2006 Miami Heat had a four and three game losing streak. Back in 2003-2004, the Detroit Pistons who gave us that butt kicking in 2004 had a six game and four game losing streak that season. So at this point, if the Lakers can get their act together and play some good basketball for the remainder of the season then their chances will look better for a three-peat, but that is a big if.

Keep this in mind, since the Lakers moved to LA, no Laker team with four game losing streak has ever went on to win a championship. For the matter, no Phil Jackson coached team with four game losing streak has ever went on to win a championship. Of course, there can be a first for Lakers and Phil. Of course other teams recently with losing streaks of four or more have went to win it all. Most recently the 2005-2006 Miami Heat had a four and three game losing streak. Back in 2003-2004, the Detroit Pistons who gave us that butt kicking in 2004 had a six game and four game losing streak that season. So at this point, if the Lakers can get their act together and play some good basketball for the remainder of the season then their chances will look better for a three-peat, but that is a big if.

Posted by: Kh | January 20, 2011 at 03:24 PM


Interesting points, Kh, Media types (Kbros- Espn Los Angeles, Broderick Turner, etc), have tried to use that 4 game losing streak as a map of Phil's successes/failures, it's a coincidence, even he said it was, that no team who ever won a chip had a 4 game losing streak, it's not a pattern, just a string of arbitrary footnotes.

No NFL Team as a #6 seed won 3 straight road games in the playoffs and won a Super Bowl, until 2005 Steelers and 2007 Giants did it, respectively. So, you have to put stock into the fact that the 4 game losing streak will have nothing to do, with what happens in the playoffs, there is no consequence, to that fact other than as a footnote, nothing more nothing less.

"Interesting points, Kh, Media types (Kbros- Espn Los Angeles, Broderick Turner, etc), have tried to use that 4 game losing streak as a map of Phil's successes/failures, it's a coincidence, even he said it was, that no team who ever won a chip had a 4 game losing streak, it's not a pattern, just a string of arbitrary footnotes.

No NFL Team as a #6 seed won 3 straight road games in the playoffs and won a Super Bowl, until 2005 Steelers and 2007 Giants did it, respectively. So, you have to put stock into the fact that the 4 game losing streak will have nothing to do, with what happens in the playoffs, there is no consequence, to that fact other than as a footnote, nothing more nothing less.

Posted by: sean | January 20, 2011 at 03:33 PM "

I agree. Too much is made of abritrary stats and patterns. It's the same way with the "every 3 peat played out this way" logic. First of all, none of the 3peats started out with a finals run on the front end so I don't know how comparable it all is. Secondly, as you touched on, the events have no tie to each other. In other words, if the Lakers were 44-0 right now, we wouldn't be doom and gloom right now thinking about how they have veered off the historical path of recent threepeat successes.

Ljp305,

I couldn't get to the article you mentioned, but I still have questions after reading your synopsis on Enchilada's performance pay plan. What about super stars on historically bad teams or terrible players on good teams. What about players on teams like the Mavericks who win lots of regular season games then suck in playoffs? What about super sixth man coming of the bench, producing, but having limited minutes. Does winning a championship matter and give everybody on the team better pay? Is there a pay scale or a limit to how much one can earn? I appreciate any response-from anyone on any of these questions.

Art - FL Laker Fan: Performance being 1 of 3 factors doesn’t mean 1/3 of the compensation is based on performance. That is, Elrod proposes to eliminate individual contracts between players and teams, and establish a salary structure that encompasses every player. The percentage of NBA related revenues going to players would remain the same (57%), but “player salaries are shifted almost entirely away from dead weight long term contracts, the kind which proliferate in the NBA, to the players who are actually producing on the floor. Player salaries will be determined by three criteria: 1. base/performance pay based upon how many minutes a player plays (70 Percent of total, or $1.4 billion); 2. all-star pay to reward the better players in the league (20 percent of total, or $400 million); and 3. team pay, to reward players on the best teams (10 percent of total, or $200 million).” Elrod even provides for injured players by setting aside 3.5 percent of the player salary pool --$77 million – to pay the salaries of seriously injured players.

Now coaches determine who plays and how much time players play. In the typical 8-9 man rotation, conditioning, skills, logic and game situations determine who plays at a particular time. Regarding blowouts, the coach again determines who plays just as is done today. Likely coaches will balance keeping a top player in a game that can’t be won against the risk of injury or over exhaustion. If a coach can’t stand up to players’ demands for more time that is not justified or justify their decisions, maybe that is not the right coach for that team. Players would be foolish to demand 40 mins of play and ignore that other factors that come into play. Resting aging stars as under the current system is a coach’s decision. If a player feels he deserves more minutes, that’s a discussion for him and his coach to work out for the best of the team.

The particular system to determine best players should be negotiated in the CBA. MVP votes and all-NBA team votes might be considered as key factors. For example, the top 25 vote-getters in the MVP balloting will get paid bonuses. There will be ten all-NBA teams for each conference, so 20 five-man rosters and 100 players (two-thirds of all starting players in the NBA) will get rewarded. The voting procedures will have to be determined in the CBA, with the players and coaches the likely voters. Voting should be done immediately after the regular season so as not to penalize players on lottery teams. The top 100 players will be rewarded, sometimes handsomely under this proposal.

Finally, what should not be allowed to continuing hunting is the current NBA player compensation system which is a nontrivial contributor to the predicament in which former great players like Shaq, McGrady and Iverson found themselves after last season. After years of being paid $millions annually -- sometimes for less than stellar performances -- and still possessing good but declining basketball skills, teams only offer these players minimum annual payments less than $1.5million/yr for 1 or 2 years. There are better ways to pay players and get a very good product too. Just because changing to a new system is challenging or problematic as you put it is not a good reason to leave the current system in place.

Just because changing to a new system is challenging or problematic as you put it is not a good reason to leave the current system in place.

Posted by: LJP305 |
==============

I agree with your last statement completely. I wasn't suggesting that it should be the same as the current agreement. Also, I do agree with a performance based comp system, have always liked those in the general workplace, have used them myself and wish it was used much more often for employees of all types.

Wanna see a productivity increase at work, just convert to that type of comp system. As a matter of fact, the new Gov of FL has talked about creating that type of system for the unemployed to receive their unemployment benefits based on things they do while unemployed. Good idea!

But it won't work for every type of profession, unfortunately.

I think Mr Laker has presented questions that are very relevant and maybe it's just my lack of imagination in this particular case, but I can't see how a fair reward system for this one aspect of the program could be established until all of Mr lakers points have been dealt with. And I have a hard time seeing the players agree to it.

sean: sean: Why even raise the question of “trying to be intellectually superior” unless you’re felling something one way or another in that regard. I’m not! Earlier I observed that many Laker fans expressed concerns about the team’s performance and raised a question if going to an alternative compensation system might offer solutions. Some folks responded with insightful questions, some ignored me and you responded with comments like “You can't be serious? This has to be a joke? The performance of an athelete in a given sporting event is a crapshoot.” etc. And you said you would leave with a thought, but you didn’t ask questions or offer substantive comment on Elrod’s proposal. Finally you don’t have to say things like “I'm a simple kind of man” or ask about what makes me “feel smarter.” Responses or answers to those kinds of things are obvious and therefore superfluous.

Come On LAKERS

Mr. Laker: Again that article is online at:
http://www.realgm.com/src_feature_pieces/957/20100720/the_path_to_a_permanent_peace_between_nba_players_and_owners/#ixzz0vSwMG4ifre
Or you might search for Elrod Enchilada at RealGm.com

More responses to follow.

can't believe they lost to dallas. isn't this the same problem they had against PHX where they got beat by a shower of 3s?

but i think the thing is, they're not taking opponents seriously unless they really do. the lakers can beat these teams but when they don't take the other teams seriously then that gives opponents mouse holes to creep in. it's either they do, or they don't. so far they haven't done it consistently.

we've seen glimmers of greatness and a lot of sneek peaks at boredom. maybe the champs are looking too far ahead into the finals.

lakers still have to put in the work now. can't be too complacent about the game. gotta have to have respect for the game as well.

sean: Why even raise the question of “trying to be intellectually superior” unless you’re felling something in that regard one way or another. I’m not. Earlier I observed that many Laker fans expressed concerns about the team’s performance and raised a question if going to an alternative compensation system might offer solutions. Some folks responded with insightful questions, some ignored me and you responded with comments like “You can't be serious? This has to be a joke? The performance of an athelete in a given sporting event is a crapshoot.” etc. And you said you would leave with a thought, but you didn’t ask questions or offer substantive comment on Elrod’s proposal. Finally you don’t have to say things like “I'm a simple kind of man” or ask about what makes me “feel smarter.” Answers and/or responses to those kinds of assertions are too easy, obvious and therefore superfluous.

Mr. Laker: If the goal is a better NBA compensation system that addresses interests of Players, Owners and Fans, perhaps we should not force that system to consider or give weight to “super stars on historically bad teams or terrible players on good teams.” Players and owners should be willing to compromise to, as Elrod suggests, “avoid another deadly players strike or owners’ lockout, like what took place in 1998 or that devastated the NHL and MLB over the past 15 years.” Perhaps your questions are reason to fault and scrap the current compensation system that has produced as Elrod say a system that “is increasingly problematic today because of the economic crisis. As total revenues stagnate or decline for the next several years, in a deflationary environment, the long-term salaries the owners are obligated to pay will weigh heavily upon them, especially those contracts for players who are not producing anywhere near what they are being paid.” If they can come up with a system that has proper incentives and avoids situations where expiring contracts are valued over performance, isn't that a good accomplishment -- a major good accomplishment? Under Elrod’s proposal, players that perform best and go farther in the playoffs get paid more. If that can be accomplished, why worry about “teams like the Mavericks who win lots of regular season games then suck in playoffs?” Elrod’s proposal includes a bonus pool that would allow Owners and GMs to compensate players for things like “super sixth man coming off the bench, producing, but having limited minutes.” Yes, “winning a championship matter and give everybody on the team better pay”. Under Elrod’s proposal, “57 percent of the basketball-related income (BRI) – is effectively allocated to player salaries. This will become a hard cap, with all 57 percent of BRI going to the immediate salary pool for players. All labor costs will come from this kitty. Management will divide the remaining 43 percent between the team owners.” Quoting from Elrod, “General Managers no longer need to concern themselves with salary matters as they assemble their teams. GMs will simply try to get the best 15 players possible. The draft will continue, as will trades. When trades are made, it will simply be based on value. Salaries will be irrelevant. The teams with the best GMs, the best coaches, the best team cultures, will be successful. Teams from big markets will not have an advantage.”

Mr. Laker: An additional point: All of the benefits of Elrod's proposal could be accomplished without 1 agent being involved -- perhaps another good accomplishment. At least that would result in 5%-15% of player compensation remaining with players.

Art - FL Laker Fan : Do you have remaining questions regarding Elrod's proposal?

Now this; This is a great thread. People discussing opinions, trying to cite facts to support their opinions, even making predictions that will prove or disprove their assertions. This thread is full of the love.

Now I gotta go to sleep and just hope that this can continue a little bit.

Regarding the playoff compensation, Elrod argues that “players on the best teams should get compensated for contributing to a winning team. These shares are allocated equally to players 1-12 on a roster, with half-shares to players 13-15 in minutes played. Players on all non-lottery teams receive compensation, with the better teams getting the larger shares. The groupings are determined by how a team fares in the playoffs.” The specific implementation of this category can be negotiated between Players and Owners in the CBA, but at least there would be an objective basis and format for coming to agreement.

I blame Phil for being the old Phil, you have to add some youth with that starting lineup. Two 7 -footers with a hurting kobe, aging fisher and artest. Then you bring in LO to play PF and Gasol center, that defeats what makes them strong, keep LO at the SF, Pau at PF, put Joe Smith at center from the bench..use Character more at PF so someone can bang with Bynum , and with Matt out use Ebanks instead of Artest so they can have more movement and stop looking like ancient statues, and please stop with playing Brown at the 2 when he's a point that at least can guard quick PG's and give Fisher a nice sit next to Phil. Blake is a better 2 guard he can at least shoot the ball at a better rate then Brown. Can we trade Phil son already Luke Walton and get Carmelo for the rest of the year and stop playing games.

Pau and Artest are the problem on defense. PAU plays with the physicality and attitude of a 'shooting guard'. Artest has lost his edge, yet PAU is the overall problem. He's WEAK on the screen and roll, WEAK with his face to face defense, and truly WEAK in the paint. Bynum , Kobe, and Artest don't have the ability to cover his lack of heart this year.

PAU must be TRADED in order for the Lakers to compete for a championship this year.

Thanks to all for your opinions on the player performance plans!


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