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Poll Question: Should the NBA have games on Christmas Day?

Sometime in the 1980s, Phil Jacksonchastised the CBA commissioner for scheduling a Christmas Eve game.

"I called him and said that's the holy time," Jackson said. "He said, 'Oh man I forgot.' You have to keep reminding him this is a special day."

Eleven NBA championship rings two decades later, Jackson hasn't softened his stance. The Lakers' game Saturday against Miami marks the 12th consecutive year the organization plays on Christmas Day.

"I don't think anybody should play on Christmas Eve. Soccer teams don't play this time of year. They take a break. And hockey. I don't understand it," Jackson said. "It's like Christian holidays don't mean anything to them anymore. It's just go out and play and entertain the TV. It's really weird. It is what it is. We've got to go to work and do what we have to do and make the best of it."

The NBA will have five games: Chicago-New York (9 a.m.), Boston-Orlando (11:30 a.m.), Miami-L.A. (2 p.m.), Denver-Oklahoma City (5 p.m.) and Portland-Golden State (7:30 p.m.) making it possible for anyone to have an excuse to ignore family, get a quick NBA fix any time during the day or both. This debate comes up every year and it's not going to change soon, which is why Jackson doesn't plan on delivering his grievances directly to NBA commissioner David Stern. The sentiment among coaches, players and media vary from wishing the league would afford everyone a normal holiday, accepting this is part of the job description to seeing it as a privilege. But from a fan perspective, have the games gotten too much? Have you seen it detract from the true meaning of the holiday? Do you see it as a good thing so long as fans watch the games in moderation? Or is this the best time to air such a buffet of games, considering Christmas is a rare time when most get the entire day off?

Vote in the poll below

--Mark Medina

Twitter.com/latmedina

E-mail the Lakers blog at mgmedin@gmail.com

 
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LRob- Ron Ron is two days without medication away from a white jacket. It's great he's with the Mental thing doing PSA, he's one the few entertainers that's puts it on the line.

But LRob you and I know the boy is not wrapped to tight, does that make him a bad person? Not at all, he's very amusing, and I enjoy watching him.

His skills and movement are slower, you never know what he's going to say. I think he's in the perfect place in L.A., home of the FRUIT LOOPS.

I think if Phil wanted to not coach due to his religious belief, no one would complain or criticize.

I for one love the X-mas day NBA games, it is the one holiday (outside of New Years day college football) with a few great, marquee games.

Speaking of which, when will the NFL dump the Lion's and Cowboys for real teams on turkey-day?


GO LAKERS!!!!!!

Larry Brown to the Lakers? No...how about back to the CLIPPERS, where they had their best seasons. Well maybe not, the Donald.

All in favor of the Christmas day games, isn't that what Christmas is all about???
Many folks have to work on Christmas.

I'm in favor for the Xmas games, but only if it's the Lakers playing.

Way too many games. Two games tops.......one afternoon and one night game. Five games is for someone who has no life or family.

I agree with Phil but mostly for the players. Instead of appreciating God in human flesh come down to earth, Jesus Christ, they have to play a game which really does take away from that great day. But I think it has a lesser effect on the fans because I can spend the day in thankfulness to Jesus and just chill and watch the game- although last year really soured my Christmas (and made me sin), which was my fault.

I'm going to love to watch the Heat pound the helpless lakers.

Trade gasoft for blake griffin!!!! Keep AB.

We want players who bring it!!!

Christmas games are good..they only distract from ones holidays if one watches them....your choice

personally I'll be hoping for a good Christmas, of which my mood will depend greatly on the rusults of the Laker game...(a win equivelent to a blue tab, a cabernet, and a few puffs of some really good medicine)( how's that 63?)

I don't know whats up right now , we are too good for these losses...maybe our team is too nice

Phil can take the day off and no one will say anything because he's proven and he deserves it; now Lebron's whiny self needs to recognize that it's the fans that drive his income and the fact that he cries about playing on X-mas is ridiculous. You get 16 mil just from the game another 90+ mil from endorsements and you're crying because you don't get the 25th off? If your fans want to see you play on the 25th you better play and play well, maybe next time you'll take yourself to a crap team who doesn't get to play on X-mas; not sure if you noticed, but X-mas games are reserved only for teams with talent that America wants to see. Phil isn't out there playing so no one really cares if he doesn't show up, but this is why Laker Heat tickets are averaging $529 a ticket right now, highest it's ever been.

art t....let's let B-Griffin play with ricky rubio a while before we trade the best four in the league for him

Interesting thought about trading Carmello for Bynum and Artest

Does giving up a formidable 7 footer (when healthy) and a proven lock-down defender (against Pierce for example) for an all-star scoring machine make sense?

PROS
1. Carmello and Kobe together on the same team is a perfect fit in the Triangle offense. Think of it like MJ and Pippen on steroids.

2. Having another player who can create their own shot to compliment Kobe would be a nightmare for any team.

3. Kobe, Melo, and Pau trumps Lebron, Wade, and Bosh.

4. Presently, if either Kobe or Pau have a bad night the Lakers have a bad night. Factor in Melo now.

5. Melo or Artest, Melo or Artest. Let me think about that


CONS
1. Giving up super size, granted if Bynum can stay healthy.

2. Pau would have to play center

3. Ron's defense on Pierce in the Finals and his clutch moments on offense...can that be repeated or was it an abberration?

4. Bynum's upside (if he can stay healthy)

=============================

Givin my pros and cons,

it seems that adding Melo would make this team indefensible. What you get with Carmello is an immediate and permanent shot in the offensive arm that would transform the current lethargic team into a real Dream Team powerhouse.

There are a lot of question marks about Bynum and Artest in this moment in time. Can Bynum stay healthy? History says no.
Can Artest duplicate last years playoffs? Who wants to take that chance especially the way he is playing this year.

MELO
MELO
MELO
MELO

SO LET IT BE WRITTEN
SO LET IT BE DONE

MAKE IT SO

TO INFINITY AND BEYOND

A DYNASTY FOR THE AGES

Troll Man....I see your point, very valid....I don't agree though,...defense wins championships....big is also more important come playoff time...

there was a time that players were chastised for the amount of money they made and their reply was "we're entertainers." well, i want to be entertained on christmas day. let the games begin, earn your money, shut your mouthes, just bounce the ball, put the ball in the basket and take your fat paychecks to the bank!

HA!

and forget about melo; he's a knick waiting to happen. this is the team we have and aside from a few minor tweaks - and i don't know what they are - orchestrated by the FO, this is the team that will be in the Finals. FINITO!

its seem coach pj scare to play on xmas day against miami..maybe he still thinking the result they same the way the play agins the bucks...if u continue playing fisher for sur the result will be they same coach...u always ssy bec the team tire,pau soft,kobe late..to many reason but why not u tell fisher cant guard anymore but u know 2yrs ago u have a problem in pg match up..

Hey guys. I'm going to move up the chat to 7 because I have errands to run later in the evening.

I'm ok with games on Christmas Day but 2 games only. Also, the same team shouldn't be made to play on Dec. 25 in consecutive years. The players have families after all.

News flash for the LA Times Lakers Blog: With due apologies to phred, this is not fantasy basketball. Last night’s loss to the Bucks was just one game in an eighty-two game regular season and definitely does not justify pushing the panic button and trading half the team as some bloggers have proposed.

There’s a reason why we play the games on the court instead of on paper. And while the Lakers played poorly last night and have not lived up to our or their expectations so far this season, there are still justifiable reasons why Lakers fans should remain optimistic rather than jumping off the bandwagon.

First, Andrew Bynum’s play last night was very encouraging. His offensive moves and shooting touch were the best we’ve seen from him this year and his defense against Bogut when Phil put him in in the 2nd quarter after Bogut had abused Pau was great. In addition to blocking 2 shots, Drew controlled the paint defensively and did a superb job challenging jump shooters on the perimeter. How can any Lakers fan not be encouraged by what they saw from Drew last night? The beast is awakening.

Second, Lamar Odom continues to play at an all-star level. I love how he is aggressively attacking the rim. I had earnestly hoped that marriage would have a stabilizing effect on Lamar’s game and it looks as if that hope has materialized. How many times have we said that this Lakers team would be unbeatable if Lamar Odom played up to his potential? Well, wake up with a smile on your face, Lakers fans, because that is exactly what Lamar is doing. This will be his first All-Star selection.

Third, Ron Artest may not have had a great offensive game last night but you cannot discount the impact that he has on the game defensively. There is no other player in this league who gets his hands on more balls than Ron does. How quickly we forget how incredibly great Ron played in Game 7. There is no other defensive player in this league that the top scorers like Durant, Pierce, and Melo dread having to face. On Christmas day, Ron will make his critics hide their faces in shame.

I don’t worry about Kobe or Pau. Kobe will rise to the occasion as always because he is still the greatest player on the planet and all Pau needs to get back his mojo is a steady diet of playing power forward instead of center. As for Fish, we may see more and more of Steve Blake unless Derek can get untracked. The key to the Lakers three-peating, however, is going to be the play and performances of Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, and Ron Artest. They’re the wild cards that no team can match.
…………………………………………..

TOM

Laker Tom with another RCOTD for sure. Thanks for pointing out, so eloquently, the things that we all have to make us happy to be Lakers fans - even after a poor showing.


MM - hope the chat goes on for awhile. I can't get there until at least 8.... bummer. Anyhoo - hope to catch all y'all later!


Riddle me this someone please - why do you continue to address the troll who's very name is a slap in my face? And why does said troll continue to use my name in it's posts? Curiouser and curiouser....

Laker Tom,
You can make the same argument for every single game.
We lost at home against a poor team. This is the worst we are playing in 3 years. We have not played any team of note yet we are 3rd or is it 4th in the West. This ought to trouble every Laker fan. The margin of error is very small now. We cannot beat any team without HCA. It is as simple as that and the earlier you recognize that the better. This team su-cks and i do not see how they improve throughout the season. If we can trade for Carmelo we should do so. He is a much better defender than he is given credit for. I have seen him hold his own against Kobe, LeBron and Pierce and he out scored all of them in the process.
If we can trade Bynum and Artest for him we should do so pronto otherwise this run is over.

Now JAMF

It comes with the territory, personal attacks will never cease whether you are JAMF or Troll Man. It's rabbit season, it's duck season. I myself like the challenge, don't always win, but getting your point across is the objective.

TM :)

@justa(the real one)
I agree with you- JUSTA HATER should be forced to change his/her handle.

Larry Brown as the Laker's next coach? I would rather have Dianne Cannon be our next coach before Brown. Every article I've read about him hcontains large sections of how many players dispised his coaching tactics.

As for Melo, no way he becomes a Laker. Even if Bynum doesn't become our next franchise player, we don't beat Boston, or the Magic, or the Meat in the Finals without his defensive presence. You never trade big for small, especially when that big has had spurts of dominance or when that big can be traded for another young big in the near future.

I'm sorry...I posted a month ago that I accept this current team 'as is' and I will play this hand...I exclaimed..."I'm all in!!!"

So the flop comes and my hand has improved slightly...but I can't bail now...we still have the turn(second half of the season) and the river (playoffs)...

So premature to be doom and gloom...and definitely stupid to think of all these ridiculous trades...

Everyone thinks it so easy to just change pieces in the NBA...wish what you want...cry all you want...complain all you want...

This is you Laker team...support it...or cheer for another team that won't give you so much 'so called grief'...

Yes you have a right to an opinion...just as much right I have to come to conclusion about how much you really support this team...

In life people are different...people react different and have different emotions...I understand this...

So as much as I won't criticize people for what I think is feeble...don't criticize me for having more patience, or unquestionable support for my Los Angeles Lakers...

Yes I will claim this team no matter what situation they are in...Hell I never bailed during the lean years...during the Kwame/Smush days...Why would I bail on them now...after they have been to the Finals for 3 years in a row...and have won 2 years in a row...

Lakers Dynasty - The Next Generation...

#16 Coming Up!!!

We cannot beat any team without HCA. It is as simple as that and the earlier you recognize that the better.

Posted by: keen observer | December 22, 2010 at 07:03 PM
====

Quiz time for keen observer: How many playoff series have the Lakers failed to win at least one game on the opponents' home court?

@LRob - great selection on Mama Said There Would Be Days Like This...

@CornerJ - congrats on the RCOTD...

LT

Great post. Actually, it wasn't all that great. It's common knowledge. :)

Dude, after this season, no one will trade a franchise player for Bynum. I doubt if anybody would do it this season.
The guy is damaged goods period. Lets get real here. If you have a franchise player like Melo, you trade for him period. This was the same mentality that saw Jordan going third during the draft.
We have seen teams win with serviceable centers. The bulls won 6. The last 3 NBA championship shows that the center position is overrated. San Antonio won playing Duncan at center.
If Melo is available for Bynum, you do it!! Period!! It is insane not to!!

keen observer

I forgot to add:

..... in the past two seasons.

We cannot beat any team without HCA. It is as simple as that and the earlier you recognize that the better.

Posted by: keen observer | December 22, 2010 at 07:03 PM

******

This is your opinon...not fact...

The Lakers can win even without HCA. It's as simple as that and the earlier you recognize that, the better it is to scroll through the Blog...

This is my opinion...first part is not fact...last part of statement is fact...

How many Play-off series has the opponent failed to win on the Lakers court?

In the last 10 years how many play off series have we won without HCA? You think it is by accident that most teams with HCA win?

Lew

Brilliant post! The bottom line is that it is flat out STUPID to even suggest personnel changes in mid-season for a two time champion whose players are still in their prime and who are coached by the greatest head coach in NBA history. My God, does everyone forget last year's mediocre practice season already? Mitch Kupchak isn't going to do a thing to this team other than what he is great at: be patient with it.

Last year, at this point in the season we were not mediocre. After the all Star game we were mediocre because of injury. We had already won the West so it did not matter much. This season is different. This is the first half of the season, we are much healthier than we were when we went into that funk last season. We did not lose 4 games on the trot. How many games did we lose in all at home. When we lost we lost to very good teams. Not to poor teams and not to poor teams at home. So lets stop the silliness. If you think things are going to improve then you live in a fool's paradise. You are in total denial. We might even get an 8th seed with this performance. If you have not seen the standings then go take a look. The performance this year is our worst in a very long time.

Talking of Cupcake, how many people here did not ask that we get Dampier when he was available and Pau was tiring?
We ended up trading Sasha for Joe Smith for the exact same reason.

In the last 10 years how many play off series have we won without HCA? You think it is by accident that most teams with HCA win?

Posted by: keen observer | December 22, 2010 at 07:20 PM

********

Don't matter what history states...This is still an opinion, no matter what stats or history states...Here is a fine example...

Bucks have not beat the Lakers at Staples for 5 years since last night...Did that stat or history hold up...

If Finals come around...should HCA team automatically win the OBrien Trophy...why even play the Finals then...

Maybe change your statement to:

Without HCA the Lakers changes of winning the Finals is not good...Now that would be factual and not an opinion...

Carry on with your whining...

Where did i say that i was stating a fact? Isn't this a place for people to state their opinions?

In the last 10 years how many play off series have we won without HCA? You think it is by accident that most teams with HCA win?

Posted by: keen observer | December 22, 2010 at 07:20 PM
====

In any playoff series? Who should I start with? The 2006 Heat? The 2004 Pistons? That's just the Finals. We're talking about THESE Lakers.

Please answer my question. Never mind. the answer is ZERO. They have proven that they can win on the road in Utah (1 games), Houston ( 1 game), Denver (2 games), Orlando (2 games), Oklahoma City (1 game), Utah again (2 games), Phoenix (1 game) and Boston (1 game). So if you don't think that this thrice championship tested team is capable of mustering it up when it needs to on the road, then I dare say, sir, that you are NOT a Lakers fan.

What else is new? Go ahead and deny that.

Well then carry on with your name calling (Cupcake) and whinny opinions...

We all can't wait to read them...lol

We also lost at home :
Houston ( 1 game) and Denver (1 game)

And to add, the only time we did not have HCA, we lost and that was to BOSTON IN '08. So don't tell me HCA does not matter.

lewsters...great fan...I'm with ya, i like this team, the pieces fit....I expected to see more of the mishaps early, but they have plenty of time to grow....we are still far from healthy''

Talking of Cupcake, how many people here did not ask that we get Dampier when he was available and Pau was tiring?
We ended up trading Sasha for Joe Smith for the exact same reason.

Posted by: keen observer | December 22, 2010 at 07:27 PM
======

What makes you think the brilliant GM of the Lakers, Mitch KUPCHAK, didn't talk to Dampier's agent? Are you aware that Dampier wanted a situation where he could actually get a guaranteed contract and play significant minutes? How could the Lakers offer him that? Are you aware that the Lakers already have the highest payroll in the league? Let me guess, you think he's better than Bynum. How shocking.

Why do you get such a thrill being such an obvious TROLL who adds nothing to this forum? Explain that to us. If I was MM, I'd ban you. You do nothing in here but bait people like you're doing right now.

LakerTom & LEWSTRS: Thank you both for putting it all into clear perspective!

LakerTom: I get heartened to see Drew's play. Sure he will be taking the rust off for the next few weeks, working his way into shape but his play has been a reminder of what the Lakers have missed when he's been out. They have done pretty well holding down the fort until he got back, none of the big-men went down (outside Theo, but his tendinitis is unrelated to Drew being out) before the cavalry arrived, and L.O. has prospered with his additional minutes.

Defense win's championships and if Ron Ron merely holds those players you mentioned down, keeps their scoring to a minimum and nullifies their strengths he is helping the cause.

What more can be said about L.O. that hasn't already been said, he is playing better than ever and is practically un-defendable by opposing forwards.

The Lakers have already given us a Christmas present, a championship title, this year. Mitch has also given us a couple of presents with the new faces on the Killer-B's.

We sometimes need to be reminded that we have a lot more to be thankful for than upset with - something you've done very well Tom.

-

LEWSTRS: If I'm a homer for loving the Lakers, if I'm blind for looking at the bright side, if I'm dumb for putting faith into this proven coaching staff, if I'm crazy for believing in this organization and if I'm biased in calling the Lakers the top organization in sports - well so be it .

I'm right there with ya LEW, Laker-for-life and damn proud of it.

Two excellent posts by two people who truly 'get it'!

- - -

justa: remember, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Apparently, this person is wanting to pick up some of your mojo.

We all know though there is one original, better than all and always duplicated/never improved on justa!

- - -

Wow, how often the HCA thing keeps rearing its head is amazing. It's like the beast that can't be killed.

I'm with those that 'get-it' - I'm sure that any Laker fan worth their salt can figure out for themselves who are right-on with this argument without being told...


GO LAKERS!!!!!!

Smith has a guaranteed contract so i don't know what you are talking about. If you have an injury prone center and a serviceable center becomes available at a low price, you pick him up, like the Celtics did with Shaq!!

And stop calling me a Troll. I find that very very offensive. This website does not belong to you or your family. I am not forcing you to read my posts , so stop the fo-olishness!! I have been here as long as you, if not longer!!

And to add, the only time we did not have HCA, we lost and that was to BOSTON IN '08. So don't tell me HCA does not matter.

Posted by: keen observer | December 22, 2010 at 07:34 PM
=====

Let's clarify one thing. You made a statement that unless the Lakers have HCA in ANY series, they WILL lose. You left no wiggle room in your opinion. All Lew and I are saying is that while it is nice to have HCA and important on some level, it is NOT essential. Teams have won championships without it. Don't put words in our mouths. We're just saying that THESE Lakers are proven playoff road warriors. I am sick of hearing about 2008. That was three playoffs ago and even then we won on the road against everyone but the Celtics. You live in ancient times if you want. Leave us out of it TROLL.

Smith has a guaranteed contract so i don't know what you are talking about.

Posted by: keen observer | December 22, 2010 at 07:46 PM
====

Obviously you don't. Joe Smith was obtained in a trade and the Lakers saved about 9 mil in that deal. Yeesh.

keen observer

Is POSER better?

troll (definition)
The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll...

I think banning is a bit harsh...and it should be up to MM and the LAT to make that decision...

But seriously...Since I have been on this Blog and chats...I have never seen keen observer once post anything positive...instead it's always criticism and insults and name calling of our players, FO and coaching staff...

This is his prerogative...and as long as he doesn't attack other members...he has the right to his opinions...

I have been here as long as you, if not longer!!

Posted by: keen observer | December 22, 2010 at 07:46 PM
====

I wasn't aware that there was a probation period in here. You are exactly what I have described you as. It is a FACT.

Smith was obtained from a trade, but his contract is still guaranteed. If we had Dampier we could have waived Smith or even traded Sasha for a pick and cash. Regardless, i find it offensive when someone insinuates/implies that he is a better Laker fan than me.

Dude, don't let me respond in kind. Thanks and good night!! And the next time you make such statements i will really insult you and when i do , don't go crying to MM!!

keen observer

There's a Lakers forum at www.thelakersnation.com where you can find like-minded people who you can relate to. You might want to try it. You are insulting the intelligence of this forum with all your negativity and simple mindedness.

888: I'd watch out since keen observer is going to 'really insult you' next time!

LOL


GO LAKERS!!!!!!

CCX

Yeah, I better back off! Thanks for the sage advice. ROFLMFAO!

888: Man, it's a good thing he decided to let you off! ROFL!

oh man... best part is the irony in calling himself 'keen observer'... lol


GO LAKERS!!!!!!

Lew

So are you saying that it is keen observer's right to be a TROLL or a POSER as long as he stays in that grey area? Is calling someone a TROLL or a POSER calling them a name at all when it is OBVIOUS that that's what they actually are? He's allowed to call Mitch Kupchak names and do NOTHING but insult the team and say negative things (that don't even qualify as opinions at times), but we can't call him out on his transparent statements? I don't think so. I am very confused.

888 - it's a public forum...so anyone can post their feelings, and opinions weather they are toxic, or supportive...

As long as they don't personally attack another member and cross the line with profanity and personal threats...Then they have a right to be here also...

We can't have double standards and just allow posters who say only positive things about the Lakers to be on, and disallow someone if they are negative...

Don't get me wrong...I'm defensive about my team, like I am about my family...and I easily get insulted when negative things are said, but my only recourse is just to scroll past those kind of fans...if you want to call them fans...

But unfortunately they have a right to post...as much as we do...

888 - you can call them out all you want...that's part of the fun...the banning part was what I was talking about...

Lew

So trolls and posers are welcome. Fine, then we should have the right to expose them. If they are in here on a false pretense .. like keen observer .. then the flip side of what you are saying must hold true, which is that we can call them out on it. Instead of "waaaah, don't call me a troll," let him defend himself why he's not when it's so obvious that he is. He can't use the sword of calling everyone in the Lakers organization names and the shield of not calling us names to protect himself. That's BS.

don't sweat it 888...there are enough positive fans here to offset the negative ones...don't let them drag you down to their putrid level...

I am not forcing you to read what i write. I do not have a gun to your head!! So stop the silliness. This site does not belong to you or the family. No where on this site does it say that people should write only "positive" things about the Lakers on here. So stop the bullying, i do not respond very well to that.

I am not forcing you to read what i write. I do not have a gun to your head!! So stop the silliness. This site does not belong to you or the family. No where on this site does it say that people should write only "positive" things about the Lakers on here. So stop the bullying, i do not respond very well to that.
Posted by: keen observer | December 23, 2010 at 05:16 AM
=======

Bullying? Sir, you are on here CLAIMING to be a Lakers fan, which clearly you are not because I have been in many forums where fans from other teams espouse the identical "viewpoints" and "opinions" (aka as "bait" or "BS") that you do in here, except that they readily admit that they hate the Lakers. The only difference is that you have chosen to play and stick to this game where you POSE as a Lakers fan. Ha ha ha. So if you are going to persist on this, I'm simply going to call you out on it.

P.S.- I know that your next move is going to be to sprinkle in a few positive statements about the Lakers. Posers like you are quite predictable.

don't sweat it 888...there are enough positive fans here to offset the negative ones...don't let them drag you down to their putrid level...

Posted by: LEWSTRS | December 22, 2010 at 10:08 PM
=====

Lew, it's fun and it's necessary.

if all it takes for some people to panic and again suggest major changes and then say that they are "facts", need to remind themselves that the lakers are about a month behind in working as a team.i watched the replay of that game and it was very apparent that they all seemed tired. maybe the arrogance of actually believing that they could turn on the switch in the fourth and hopefully that will forever be a moot point. although they have the potential to be a great team, they are certainly not that now. even SHOWTIME had to get that idea out of their heads and JUST WORK REAL HARD ALL OF THE TIME be fore they emerged as a great team. lets hope that the lakoers took yesterday off to realize the challenge they have before rthem

good post lance....I'll agree with you...

there is plenty of time for this team to fit...the dominance they showed early is just a taste of what is to come, these guys will be a polished force come april


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