Lakers Roundtable: L.A. Times' Mark Medina with Roland Lazenby on Tex Winter and Jerry West induction to National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame
Lakers Coach Phil Jackson has often jokingly remarked to Tex Winter that his chances of getting inducted into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame will remain slim because "he's outlived all of his contemporaries."
Longtime Laker author Roland Lazenby, another proponent of the 88-year-old Winter for the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame, has lamented that Winter's role as a key architect in the triangle offense has been overlooked because Winter mostly has been an assistant coach in the NBA. But Lazenby expressed some optimism that Winter's induction Sunday to the National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame in Kansas City, Mo., would help Winter's cause.
"He's had a profound impact on basketball as we know it," Lazenby said of Winter, whose head coaching stints at Marquette, Kansas State, Washington, Northwestern and Long Beach State led to records with the Wildcats for most league titles (eight), two trips to the Final Four in 1958 and 1964 and UPI coach of the year in 1959. "I don't know if the Hall of Fame can see past its formulas and its snooty attitude to correct it. I hope it does." Lazenby noted that Winter receiving the Chuck Daly Lifetime Achievement Award prior to Game 2 of the 2010 NBA Finals probably gave him another boost toward the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame.
In his way, Jerry West can relate to the long wait. Though he was inducted into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame as a player in 1980, it wasn't until Sunday that he was inducted -- alongside Winter -- in the National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame.
"I think they think I'm going to die right away. They always do that before they do these things," West said of his induction which honors his efforts at West Virginia, which includes holding multiple Mountaineer records
Lazenby, who authored a West biography last year titled "Jerry West: The Life and Legend of a Basketball Icon," spoke with me in the video below both about West and Winter, whom he's known closely since being an assistant under Jackson with the Chicago Bulls.
Among the highlights:
-- Winter's contributions to the triangle offense and whether the system will live on after Jackson retires.
-- Why Winter has yet to be inducted into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame.
-- West's legacy at West Virginia.
-- West's litany of accomplishments this year, including an induction into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame for his involvement with the 1960 U.S. Olympic team, the Lakers announcing they'll unveil a statue of him as a player outside Staples Center and his induction Sunday into the National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame.
-- Mark Medina
E-mail the Lakers blog at mgmedin@gmail.com
YIKES! I rarely repost, but today I'm going to. Sorry.
GOOD Morning Lakerland! What a great day it is to be on top of the world. The Lakers 2011 Coronation continued throughout the Country and they made the games look easy.
Now Bynum is working out the details of his return from injury and is preparing to join our party? NICE! We are already SICK (meaning good, lol). If he can contribute even a few minutes, Pau and Lamar's minutes can start to look much more appropriate and they can avoid a potential breakdown from too many minutes.
I was reading an article this morning about the Lakers and their caution regarding Bynums' return. There was just one comment (at the time) and he made some interesting points regarding Bynums' injuries. Talking about Bynum at all on this blog is tricky, but I wanted to share this guys view and see if you too learn something.
Here is the link:
http://www.foxsportswest.com/11/20/10/Lakers-take-slow-steady-approach-with-By/landing_lakers.html?blockID=357406&feedID=3687
Posted by: JohnnyV | November 21, 2010 at 10:32 AM
Posted by: JohnnyV | November 21, 2010 at 10:33 AM
Good Morning JohnnyV! Good article thanks for the Link! And I agree if we can get just a little contribution from Bynum in the coming weeks everything else will fall in place.
Posted by: Mamba24 | November 21, 2010 at 10:45 AM
Here are some thoughts on the Hall Of Fame thing:
Jerry West deserves a statue but not as a National Collegiate HOF, that should be in his College alma mater in West Virginia. As a Laker, the honor is for his services as a player, coach and general manager.
Tex Winter also deserves NBA HOF for his coaching ingenuity in introducing the triangle offense as a basketball strategy. Here is the suggestion, if his name is submitted,(for God's sake!) don't submit another Laker name. HOF has to spread the honorees to all other teams and others posthumously.
I hope this is the last statue to be erected at Staples and Nokia Live. Don't use these statues as commercial tools like a Christmas decor to entice visitors in the area. We already one in boxing, one in broadcasting, another one in hockey, two in basketball, yet there is one more who may demand a space because of their revenue contribution to the stadium. Unfortunately, there is no achievement to boast for this team, I'm referring to the Clippers.
Statues are symbols of achievement, honor and acknowledgment of a grateful city and its fans. There is no need to sell it. Let the honoree's achievements speak for themselves.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | November 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM
Wow, a near-30 minute interview with Roland Lazenby? Should make for interesting listening later on, although he was downright paranoid with his take on Phil dating Jeanie as merely a power-play to achieve some leverage over Dr. Buss. I'm surprised that Phil would use Lazenby to let his off-the-record views out after that one.
Ever heard of love Roland? The fact is, Jeanie is one darn good looking lady for starters. Gee, I guess nothing better to than start a pretty slimy rumor just at the time your Jerry West book hits the streets to get some much needed pub.
Nevertheless, Lazenby offers great insights too, just that one was particular whack...
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mamba: Thank you for reserving my spot on the Laker starting-5 all-stars bus. You must have remembered my post from a week or two back saying this team should surpass the '98 teams 4 all-stars (eddie, nick, kobe, shaq).
Honestly, with the all-star game being in L.A., they should just form a team composed of the all-stars from every other team and play the Lakers. They'd lose, but it would be fun...
The all-stars would lose, of course...
- - -
KobeMVP888: "MM, is there a way to slip this question to Phil Jackson somehow? I'm sure his response won't be anything that's understandable to the human mind anyway."
-
ROFL! I do hear him occasionally call rooks lower than whale poop, outside of that some things he says are harder to decipher than hieroglyphics. lol
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KB Blitz: You think that Larry Bird took harder shots on average than Kobe? Are you kidding me? You gotta be joking so I will leave it at that...
If you want to argue that you better understand Phil, then go right ahead. I don't remember in an interview saying that he'd take HCA over health, that is common sense. If he has healthy players, and hasn't wrapped up home court yet, then they probably would see a few extra minutes. Those nursing injuries, as Kobe was last year, he gives off-days. Where's the debate?
"Btw take your little Magic Johnson and his pathetic defense beyond steals who needed other players to guard players of his position that he couldn't do and be blinded by the flash. I'll take Kobe anyday over a team like Magic who had 2 other HoF over Kobe who at most has 1 and is a shoe in at best."
Is bashing Magic really necessary? I would take Kobe over Magic to cover a guard, but Magic was frequently guarding forward, it was left to Norm/Byron/Coop and even Worthy to cover guards. Magic would also defend in the post a lot of the time. Please, don't compare apples to oranges.
We get it, you take Michael over Magic, Michael over Kobe, and now it's obvious Kobe over Magic too - but don't need to slam Magic to make a point...
- - -
hobbitmage: You hit on a number of things. You like to see stats, so I'll throw some in here.
I think you overestimate Dwight's offensive prowess, although at 21.4 ppg he does seem somewhat improved - finally - with a 3ppg increase over last year which is 1 ppg better than a couple years ago when he averaged 20½. However, he's also getting 2 less rebounds a game, so that has about equaled out. Has he given Bynum problems? Not enough to disrupt the Lakers defensively, nor enough to basically neutralize him and allow the Lakers to exploit their mismatches at every other position on the floor.
Kobe DID rest down the stretch last year, sat out 3 games during the final 11 days.
These Lakers put together one of the most outstanding single defensive games that I remember any team outside of the Bad Boy Pistons in game 7 of last years Finals. Sure, individually Bynum wasn't facing Dwight and Perkins was out too, but Bynum could be argued was the MVP of that series considering that he played through the amount of pain that he did and when he was out there against the C's the Lakers controlled the paint. Obvioulsly, Ainge feels the same way, that's why he went out and got the O'Knee-ail bro's.
The Lakers this year have the biggest disparity between point scored/points given up in the NBA, I see it's currently 10 pts and was as big as 14 earlier in the season. Of course, being an offensive juggernaut means they will give opposing teams more possessions, that is why the best gauge of defensive ability throughout the season is the difference between scoring average and points given up average.
Opponents are also shooting .436% against them, compared to the Lakers .476 (coincidentally, the Lakers are shooting the same from 3-pt than opponents are shooting on them from the field, .436!). The Lakers are also getting almost 4-rebounds on average more than opponents.
I think it's safe to say that the Lakers are a good defensive team.
Posted by: CyberCosmiX | November 21, 2010 at 11:11 AM
An owners dream in putting up a team is to make money and win a Championship. Those are the primordial objectives, afterwhich he puts up the other sub objectives and strategies. He hires a good GM and build a working hierarchy from scratch. Based on their investments, work on an initial budget to get good coaches, players again based on the prime objectives.
To support those objectives, a good coach like PJ makes his own objective throughout the season. It is either number of W's or HCA and these strategies are reviewed periodically as they go through the season. He makes sub strategies on priorities on players, plays and games W or L. Players also have individual strategies based on personal goals as a player, obligation to the coach and the team. If all these objectives and strategies meet and happen to break records, fine and dandy. However, the focus must be on the overall objectives namely: 1) Make Money; 2) Home Court Advantage during the playoffs and 3) Championship during the playoffs.
Health issues are part of the risks in competition. You can avoid them by honing skills on avoidance during the preseason tune ups or summer work outs like what Shannon Brown did, he rolls when bumped and still standing. No one can avoid injuries, a good coach has a batting average on how his players would cope with injuries. Like for example, if you play Pau or Fisher 40 minutes per game during the season, chances are there a higher percentage that they will not be healthy at the 90th game.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | November 21, 2010 at 11:36 AM
KobeMVP888,
Bynum could be healthy during the playoffs but if he's not NBA ready then it also useless. It takes months to get to the groove of NBA quality, as you can see even Kobe who already a Superstar both in body and spirit has to undergo some honing of skills and blending with his new teammates. This cannot be accomplished at practices, it should come from games. It is like playing poker or chess, you have to be in competition to be ready for the big events.
Another way of protecting him from further injuries, preserved him as-is, include him at the Hollywood Wax Museum. lol! j/k only, no biggie.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | November 21, 2010 at 11:13 AM
======
Of course, Edwin. I don't say things in a vacuum. Andrew usually finds his groove about 6-8 weeks into the season, so I expect him to be playing at a high level come February. Let's pray he gets there and stays healthy for the duration. If he does and everyone else is healthy for the playoffs, no one has a chance against us.
Posted by: KobeMVP888 | November 21, 2010 at 11:39 AM
CyberCosmiX - I'd definitely give it a listen. Roland offers some great insight and detail on both Tex Winter and Jerry West
Posted by: Mark Medina | November 21, 2010 at 11:41 AM
There is no question on the importance of Bynum if Lakers want a 3-peat. However, Andrew is not an indispensable player as some of us paint as is. Fans are still waiting for his explosion, and consistency as a Laker throughout the seaon. LO broke that reputation and prove his worth to the team. We need Drew to follow what LO is doing for the team.
Unfortunately, we are frustrated and somewhat irritated when we hear stories about Drew's growing pains like: carrying a Playboy bunny while he's injured; postponing surgery to attend the World Cup; and lately going @ 110 mph speed on LA roads (is this not similar to snowboarding of Vlad) supposedly incapable of playing a NBA game. We understand that these are his personal choices and have freedom to do it. If the Coach or GM is not concerned with his extra curricular activities, then we should likewise follow their lead. There will be fans who will critique Drew and they are not Bynum bashers or Bynum haters. They critique because they recognized the importance of Drew to the team.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | November 21, 2010 at 11:57 AM
"KB Blitz: You think that Larry Bird took harder shots on average than Kobe? Are you kidding me? You gotta be joking so I will leave it at that..."
It's obvious way too much you watched too much Lakers to realize that they are other good players in the league. Like Mamba who lived for a time in Chi-town I had to live also in NYC for a time (for a job) and got to see other players. Bird even though he was at the end of his career put up crazy shots.
And since you want to blinded by flashiness try this for a tough move. Even I could not explain how Dr J did it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7njB1T-Xjk&feature=related
"If you want to argue that you better understand Phil, then go right ahead. I don't remember in an interview saying that he'd take HCA over health, that is common sense. "
The point was the he REALLY cares about Home Court Advantage other than the advantages in the playoffs it also can help for HEALTH reasons too. You blow out teams in the regular season instead of playing down to the competition=more rest overall. You get the best seed you can do and there would be nothing to win or lose=Rest at the end.
In this process fighting for home court=getting more rest if successful AND the best
"What's important," Jackson said, "is getting out ahead of the rest of the pack and somehow or other putting them in the back so that you have that home court advantage that looms important at certain times in the playoffs."
Did he say "Obviously home court is important but what's more important is getting our guys healthy"? That line actually sounds more like Doc Rivers.
http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2010/11/phil-jackson-lakers-home-court-advantage.html
During 08-09 he also stated:
"We've got a few more road games than they [Cleveland Cavaliers] do, they've got a better home record than we do, so that means that they have a better chance right now," Jackson said. "But the tie goes to us, so that's important that we keep pressure on them."
http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-03-25/sports/24572836_1_home-court-advantage-quest-for-home-court-phil-jackson
Since you guys love to defer to Phil.....I'll do so too.
"Is bashing Magic really necessary? I would take Kobe over Magic to cover a guard, but Magic was frequently guarding forward,"
Magic guarded SG who are much smaller and Magic matched up better with. First it was Norm Nixon then Bryon Scott who guarded the opposing PG. Magic would guard the opposing SG. Worthy guarded SF, AC guarded PF and Kareem to the C. In crunch time when Cooper was in that was when Magic guarded SF's.
And well when you have MVP888 trash Nick Van Exel to make a point (even I disliked Nick myself) well don't be surprised.
"Please, don't compare apples to oranges."
No that's why Bryant is a more complete player than Earvin. Kobe relished guarding players from PG/SG/SF. Magic always had to have someone else to guard to protect him from playing defense as much.
If it wasn't for Magic's achievements (5 rings, 3 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's vs 5 rings, 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's) Kobe would be better than Magic. Why? Because Kobe while being good (if not as efficient as his contemporaries) at offense he is a beast defensively (and better than Ron overall except in Ron's DPOY year).
Point? Flashy on offense and taking tough shots isn't nearly as impressive as your overall game.
And arguing Bynum was the MVP of the Finals series.....yeah I'm not going to even go there.
Posted by: KB Blitz | November 21, 2010 at 12:00 PM
@JimJoyce.
Really get a life man.
Kobe more rings than: Jerry West+Lebron James+Dwyane Wade+Chris Bosh+Allen Iverson
End of story.
Posted by: KB Blitz | November 21, 2010 at 12:03 PM
MM: I'm gonna give it a listen as soon as the Raider comeback vs the Steelers is over (ok, so I'm in blind denial!). I generally find Roland's takes to be very interesting as he has some 'sources' deep inside the Lakers heirarchy (sources is defined as Phil, lol). I just don't remember the word he used when he pulled out the Phil is blanking the owners daughter take, hmmm... was it shchlepping? Tepping? I just don't recall... but do remember it was a word normally pertaining to sheep. lol
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KB Blitz: Magic normally covered opposing forwards, some power forwards too. He covered some guards. He was the ultimate versatile player in NBA history, like L.O. x10. He didn't merely cover SG's as you suggest.
I feel like I'm going to need to dig up some youtube footage of him to cover my memories of him playing defense - if anything you've got me curious as I didn't follow the Lakers as closely then with high school/college and all plus the lack of 24-hr sports news cycle of today...
Comparing Kobe to Magic results in one common denominator: winning. Magic finished with 5 titles and 9 Finals appearances, Kobe has 5 titles and 7. Both are outstanding players that are the finest of their respective era's (sorry, Larry falls short of Magic). Both players have that winning-edge to them, and both have shown to be very adept team leaders (Magic the finest floor leader in NBA history - don't even try to go Nash or Kidd or Stockton or... anybody but perhaps Oscar on me!).
Kobe and Magic are different players, and Kobe is gaining ground not only on Magic for GLOAT, but the field for GOAT.
You really want to keep the Larry took harder shots than Kobe on average debate? Really? Larry took some very hard shots, some crazy ones, but ON AVERAGE Kobe's 'degree of difficulty' is much higher as his Kobe's skills are probably second-to-none that we have seen in league history...
And please, don't equate bashing Nick Van Exel to bashing Magic to make a point. That is just plain krazeee....
Bynum wasn't the MVP of the series, but with his heroic playing through injury and his affect on the Celtic bigs when he played made him a crucial piece in last years championship series...
Now, back to watching the Raidah comeback! (I can fantasize can't I???....)
GO LAKERS!!!!!
Posted by: CyberCosmiX | November 21, 2010 at 12:26 PM
Justanothermambafan,
I have no idea what you're talking about. Do what you need to do.
I'll catch you on a bandwagon or a bus.
Posted by: hobbitmage | November 21, 2010 at 12:33 PM
"Magic normally covered opposing forwards, some power forwards too. He covered some guards. He was the ultimate versatile player in NBA history, like L.O. x10. He didn't merely cover SG's as you suggest."
Starting wise....he guarded SG's. Worthy guarded SF's.
When Michael Cooper went in and Worthy went out.....Magic guarded SF's.
When Cooper and Worthy Magic Guarded SF's.
Byron and Cooper took more responsibility guarding perimeter players to prevent Magic from working too hard on the defensive end.
Now Magic was an avid stealer. One big reason for Laker fast breaks was those steals turned into transition points.
However you would NEVER trust him shut down a player defensively. Michael and Kobe did that. (Michael on Clyde and Kobe on Lebron).
"You really want to keep the Larry took harder shots than Kobe on average debate? Really? Larry took some very hard shots, some crazy ones, but ON AVERAGE Kobe's 'degree of difficulty' is much higher as his Kobe's skills are probably second-to-none that we have seen in league history..."
Again why take tougher shots? On AVERAGE you won't make a majority of them. That's why efficiency COUNTS. Any dousy knows that 50% is better than 45%.
No matter how many tough shots you make....you'd rather get the more efficient shots now don't you?
That being said while I will criticize Kobe I won't pull my hair out. Since Kobe is a career 45% shooter I don't expect him to improve so it's not like I lose sleep anymore about his FG%.
"And please, don't equate bashing Nick Van Exel to bashing Magic to make a point. That is just plain krazeee...."
Yea well that was a point MVP888 tried to do to me and failed so yes I guess that a failing too. My apologies.
"Bynum wasn't the MVP of the series, but with his heroic playing through injury and his affect on the Celtic bigs when he played made him a crucial piece in last years championship series..."
"He was arguably the MVP of that series". Huh?
"Now, back to watching the Raidah comeback! (I can fantasize can't I???....)"
BOO! Lol.
Posted by: KB Blitz | November 21, 2010 at 12:51 PM
Checking in to remind you guys that I'm going to the game tonight! It's been quite a while since I've been to Staples(8 years), so I can't wait!!!!
Leavin' early to get some pics of myself and the fam next to Magic and Chick's statues.
I hope it's a high scoring shootout tonight with Pau and Lamar putting up big numbers since Lee is out and all they have to contend with down low is Biedrins.
I'll give you guys the full report tomorrow!
Go LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: mclyne | November 21, 2010 at 01:08 PM
"Checking in to remind you guys that I'm going to the game tonight! It's been quite a while since I've been to Staples(8 years), so I can't wait!!!!"
Have fun there tonight
Posted by: KB Blitz | November 21, 2010 at 01:12 PM
mclyne -
Hope you get to enjoy the game this evening. Do let me know if the atmosphere has changed (i.e. that there are fans who cheer loudly instead of sitting there in silence for long stretches of time).
Posted by: Caliphilosopher | November 21, 2010 at 01:16 PM
@Mclyne, Make sure you represent!! Like Cali said don't let those blase fans sit on their hands. We are expecting a full report in the morning. Carry on sir!!
*
@Caliphilosher & KB Blitz it's a wonderful time to be a LakerFan! Of course any time is a wonderful time to be a Laker Fan unlike the "FAN UP" Heat! LOL!! Enjoy your weekend gentlemen and enjoy the game. Cali I hope you get to see the whole game. LOL!
Posted by: mamba24 | November 21, 2010 at 01:32 PM
hobbit - welllllll..... it's possible I took some of your comments the wrong way then. If that's the case - then my badness........
Posted by: justanothermambafan | November 21, 2010 at 01:39 PM
@mclyne - have a great time representing tonight...maybe you should bring a sign saying" Laker Blog in the House...
I find it very amusing that the Heat franchise needs to do advertising to fill their arena...Wasn't LeBron's 'talent' coming to South Beach suppose to do that...lol...maybe South Beach is full of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyqp2f6VPos
@utz - waiting to 'Amen' your prayer bro...
Lakers Dynasty - The Next Generation...
#17 Coming Up!!!
Posted by: LEWSTRS | November 21, 2010 at 01:47 PM