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Jordan Farmar and Shannon Brown approaching free agency with differing attitudes

Lakers guard Jordan Farmar sat upstairs in the Lakers' practice facility, outlining in detail to Coach Phil Jackson and General Manager Mitch Kupchak his view that his role hasn't changed in the last four seasons.

"That was kind of the plan going into every year, which was getting a little more and a little more and it's kind of stayed the same," Farmar said. "For me, that's been tough."

Guard Shannon Brown sat in the same office, agreeing with Jackson and Kupchak that his main goal should entail marked improvement.

"They feel I made progress with the things I have done," Brown said. "It's all about getting better."

Brown pointed to his short shelf life with four teams in his first four seasons as a possibility why he'd prefer staying with the Lakers.

"I would definitely love to come back here," he said.

Farmar pointed to his L.A.-centric basketball career, which has included playing for Taft High School, UCLA and the Lakers, as a reason he'd leave his hometown.

"I think it's good for somebody to get away sometimes," he said. 

Farmar shook hands with reporters after his exit interview Monday, forewarning that this may be the last time he'd see us. Brown shook hands with reporters after his session, hoping this wouldn't be a goodbye.

Both players face uncertainty regarding their future with the Lakers.

"They haven't really discussed or decided much about what the situation is going to be next year," said Farmar, who earned $1.9 million last season and will become a restricted free agent July 1. The Lakers can match any offer he receives.

"I'm still thinking about it," said Brown, who can opt out of his contract.

Both acknowledged that they would prefer a more significant role than the ones they had in the 2009-10 season.

"For my career," Farmar said, "I need to establish myself as somebody who can lead a team and play big minutes and be a lead guard."

Added Brown,"You don't want to go nowhere and just sit on the bench."

And both players are rather close. They leaned on each other during uncertain moments of playing time and they even capped their exit interviews with an appearance together Tuesday night at Playhouse Hollywood.

Yet, their attitudes couldn't be any more different. Farmar thinks he has put in the work and seen little benefit. Brown thinks the hard work he has put in expedited his opportunities. Farmar seems willing to give up playing with a championship team in hopes that he lands a starting position somewhere else. Brown seems to want to stay with the Lakers, knowing that the strong supporting cast will only foster his learning growth. Farmar views Derek Fisher's playoff success as a reason why his chances of staying are dwindling. Brown views Fisher's success as a model to follow. 

The latest snapshot regarding Fisher and Brown shows the same inconsistency that plagued the Lakers' bench all season. And it's a reason  the two face uncertainty about whether they will remain with the Lakers. Their erratic and unpredictable play often left Jackson limiting their minutes. But Farmar's energy and Brown's athleticism provided Jackson a legitimate reason to give them playing time. Farmar expressed reluctance to play a bench role because he's afraid he'll be pigeon-holed as a utility player. Brown showed reluctance to embrace his reputation for making theatrical dunks because he wants to be a complete player. Farmar and Brown often played outside of the triangle offense. But Farmar's disruption pointed more to his desire to do things on his own. Brown's disruption pointed more to him figuring things out on his own. Farmar often was beaten on defense because of poor effort. Brown often was beaten on defense because of poor awareness.

Both also had moments of greatness. Farmar's fourth quarter in Game 1 of the Western Conference finals and his loose-ball dive over Rajon Rondo in Game 6 of the NBA Finals stood out as signature plays. Brown's two energetic dunks in the same contest as well as his trip to the All-Star dunk contest signified his tremendous growth this season, though the latter appearance also coincided with his performance dipping after the All-Star break. 

The relationship between Farmar and the coaching staff has often appeared disconnected. Farmar thinks the coaches' distrust in his abilities has stunted his growth. The coaching staff thinks Farmar's distrust in the triangle offense has stunted his growth. The relationship between Brown and the coaching staff suggests an understanding. Brown openly admits his weaknesses but thinks his work ethic will overcome those lapses

Both face uncertainty about where they will land. But it's safe to say that Farmar's and Brown's differing attitudes toward the organization will significantly affect their futures. 

-- Mark Medina

Follow the L.A. Times Lakers blog on Twitter: twitter.com/latmedina. E-mail the Lakers blog at [email protected]

 
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This article says a lot about the mentality of Jordan and Shannon. I think a lot of people already knew this about both of them and why a lot of people really love Shannon.

what a thrilling end to the USA-Algeria game

1-0 in extra time - spectacular. and they r in the sweet 16!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is Jordan's first stop and he feels he is being held back (though I think he has the minutes he's earned)


Shannon sat elsewhere and earned playing time here.


That is reflected in the attitudes of both.

Out of curiosity does anyone know if the Bynum for CP3 trade works?

I'm puzzled how some here still want to trade AB...Especially for Bosh...

Hasn't AB proved he is determined to make his mark...his heart during these playoffs, playing while injured, said it all...

Big men like AB don't grow on trees...He is only 22 yrs old...

How can anyone think there could be a better trio than Kobe-Pau-Bynum...

LEAVE THE CORE PLAYERS ALONE...

Build around Kobe-Pau-AB-Artest-Odom...

We got a great thing going...More rings to come...

Please keep this team intact...#17 Coming UP!!!

Congrats USA Soccer Team...

We make the Sweet 16...

USA USA USA!!!

"Out of curiosity does anyone know if the Bynum for CP3 trade works?"

Posted by: hobbitmage | June 23, 2010 at 09:12 AM

Only if it comes with a new set of rules allowing for 2 balls on the floor at once.

Good luck finding someone with the talent, ability, and upside for the money (or less) that JF will make next season.

I don't see anyone. Do you?

While everyone BUT LTLF, Todd, and myself are saying "don't let the door hit you on the way out," I'd like to know what you all think we'll do not only immediately but long term. Can you find a guy that can get to the bucket and also lead the Lakers in 3pt %??

We've all loved Shannon from day one when he had that "Thank God" look on his face - but Shannon's season was a bit disappointing to me + his play actually hurt the other back-up PG (JF).

Unless Mitch can pull off some wacky stuff (ie, LBJ, Dwade, CP3, Will Bynum) then his best bet is to just match whatever is offered to Farmar. The guy will NOT make MLE money in this market, but he will probably get something more than what he got this last season

Here's another thing to consider. If you're a Derek Fisher fan, then you require a decent back-up. Because otherwise you're asking Fisher to log heavy minutes throughout the season and into the playoffs. The guy needs a decent back-up. Do you see one out there? I don't. Steve Blake is probably the best option mentioned here, but I'm not terribly fond of that option... a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.

If Shannon opts out, it's just for the extra years to his contract. That guy will not get paid.

And IMO, replace Morrison's spot on the roster with Coby Karl.

Why is everyone so high on TMac? Can that guy even lace it up anymore? Can he play more than say 20 games in a season? Sign him for vet minimum and not a penny more, IMO.

More draft possibilities for the lakers. I say we go one small andone big:


43 Brian Zoubek
Duke,
Senior
22 C 7'1" 250

After dealing with nagging foot injuries for most of his career and spending the former half of this season serving as little more than a foul machine for Coach K and the Blue Devils, Brian Zoubek was elevated to the starting lineup in mid-February, transforming his role and Duke’s season outlook in the process.

The country’s most dominant offensive rebounder on a per-minute basis, Zoubek played as important a role as any player in Duke’s journey to a national championship.


28 Greivis Vasquez
Maryland,
Senior
23 PG/SG 6'5" 195


STRENGTHS: - Go-to scoring mentality - Transition play - Ability to create own shot - Competitiveness - Confidence - Mental toughness - High-level productivity - Level of competition - Ability to create for others - Court vision - Excellent wingspan - Size for position - Average rebounder - 3-point range - Free throw shooting


WEAKNESSES: - Efficiency - Not a true point guard - Out of control at times - Shot-selection - Ability to defend position at next level? - Ability to fight through screens - Commitment to playing defense - Lateral quickness - Physical Toughness - Ability to finish through contact - Average athleticism - Inconsistent shooter - Low shooting percentages


Recent Tweets All Tweets Greivis Vasquez apparently impressive in Minnesota today. Made great passes to Ebanks, made shots off dribble. Vs Courtney Fortson though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQEa-glPE18&feature=player_embedded


58 LA Lakers Alexey Shved 6-6 178 PG/SG Russia


Strengths: A 6-7 natural point guard with immense upside ... A real competitor, also very smart. Charismatic ... Really has a great feel for the game at a young age ... Has it all offensively with the ability to shoot off the dribble with range as well as take it to the basket ... Tremendous passer and ball handler ... Has a nasty crossover and handles the ball well against the quickest of defenders ... Makes the game look very easy ... Creates baskets for his teammates and makes those around him better ... Very bouncy, good leaper with huge wingspan ... Looks very young. Could still be growing ... Has huge hands giving him added control over the ball ... Applies himself defensively and shows good instincts staying in front of his man and not biting on fakes ... One of the top overall prospects in all of Europe ...

Weaknesses: His frame is very long but his shoulders are narrow and he is very skinny ... May never be a very strong player, but as a point guard, that's less important ... Added strength will allow him to drive to the basket and absorb contact better ... He'll also be able to use his size better on the boards ... Being from Russia, he has some hurdles to cross as a number of recent Russian players (besides AK47) have struggled to make the transition to the NBA/USA culture ...


43*
Willie Warren
Ht/Wt: 6-4 / 207 lbs
Position: PG/SG
Team: Oklahoma
Class: Sophomore


A player once projected to be selected near the top of the lottery, Willie Warren’s fall from grace shows in his numbers. He turned the ball over on 22.7% of his overall possessions, the highest amongst twos projected to be selected in the draft. Warren sits right at the average in overall scoring percentage at 42.5%, but is second lowest prospect in terms of transition scoring percentage at 45.1%, nearly 20% less than Evan Turner.

On the positive side, Warren shot 47.8% from the field in half court situations, the highest mark amongst all prospects. Much of his success against a set defense comes from his ability to score in isolation situations. His explosiveness played a key role in his 52.5% shooting in one-on-one scenarios –the highest percentage on our rankings. He also shot the highest adjusted field goal percentage in pick and roll situations at 60%. These are qualities that are in high demand in today’s NBA, and could make him an intriguing change of pace option in some team’s second unit, granted he’s able to hone the rest of his game.


(High School championship game) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZoyabbt9Jw


58
Derrick Caracter
Ht/Wt: 6-9 / 275 lbs
Position: F
Team: Louisville
Class: Junior


"Talented UTEP basketball player Derrick Caracter has shined under a bright spotlight -- The young man is huge ... seemingly big enough to create shade.

Derrick Caracter -- 6-foot-9, a fit 280-pounds, quick feet, agile, athletic -- is quite simply a force down low in UTEP's basketball scheme. Oh, do not overlook his ability to step outside and float home a butterfly-gentle jumper, either"


(I'd like to add some size in this draft along with a PG, and this guy looks mobile like big Baby) http://www.mefeedia.com/video/31449954


58. Los Angeles Lakers - A.J. Ogilvy, C, Vanderbilt

Ogilvy was an interesting talent a few years ago, but has since died down and regressed as an NBA prospect. He still has good size and a solid offensive game, and could be a nice prospect for L.A. to groom behind its line of elite bigs.


Ogilvy’s freshman season was highlighted by his dominant play with his back to the basket, and his sophomore season was no different, as he continued to punish opposing defenses inside. Ogilvy’s footwork, awareness, and understanding of how to use fakes in combination with every move in his arsenal are nothing short of outstanding, and he uses these things very well in combination with his imposing stature. On the downside, however, Ogilvy didn’t alleviate many of the concerns from a year ago in regards to his post game, not showing much ability as a power finisher and lacking the lower body explosiveness that would help his game translate more seemlessly to the next level. Also, while he has great fundamentals and can methodically beat almost any college defender on an island, he does show some problems dealing with double teams, not always showing the quickness to finish before they collapse on him, leading to his high turnover rate for a big man.


Jerome Randle "most handles in college bb"
PG 5'10" 160
California
Randle, a quicker-than-quick point guard with three-point range seemingly to midcourt, and Samhan, a back-to-the-basket center who averaged a double-double (21.3 points, 10.9 rebounds), were the standard bearers for Bay Area college basketball last season.


After scanning various mock drafts and talking with an NBA scout, it appears Randle, Samhan and Stanford forward Landry Fields are the Bay Area college players with the best chances of being chosen Thursday - with Randle having a slight edge on the other two.


It would come as no surprise if no Bay Area player gets selected.The major knock on Randle is his size (5-foot-9). Samhan, who's 6-10, lacks speed and there are questions about whether his body can handle the rigors of the NBA.
Samhan and Randle have had workouts with several NBA teams. That, in and of itself, is a plus for Randle. "A lot of people aren't getting as many workouts as me," Randle said in a recent phone interview. "They're trying to look for workouts. I'm blessed to say that I have been working out for teams. Hopefully, I've impressed some people enough to draft me."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSFyOjU1hI0


Ryan Thompson
SG 6'6" 210
Rider
Recent Tweets 21:33:01 Ryan Thompson's team won 114-82. He finished with 37 pts (14-20), 4 ass, 0 TO. Impressive showing, needless to say. A.J. Slaughter w/28 pts
2010-04-07 20:38:02 Ryan Thompson, Jason's brother (Kings) is having a great game here. 20 points in first half, all within flow offense. Making shots, passes.


Career Highlights: Only player in program history to be in school’s all-time top 10 in points, rebounds and assists. Finished his career with 1,879 career points, fourth-highest ever at Rider, 393 career assists, sixth-most ever at Rider and 734 career rebounds, seventh most ever at the school. Started and played in every game from his sophomore through senior year.


43 LA Lakers Lance Stephenson 2013 SG Cincinnati 6' 5" 210 Lance Stephenson: The Most Intriguing NBA Draft Prospect


Had Lance Stephenson been asked a year ago about the draft, he would’ve thought he was a lock for the lottery. This year, however, Stephenson finds himself on the first round bubble.

It's hard to see how this happened, considering this was his freshman season at the University of Cincinnati, where Stephenson played well, being named the Big East Rookie of the Year while averaging 12 points, 5 rebounds, and 2.5 assists per game. A year ago Stephenson was one of the top high school recruits in the country, a McDonald’s All American. ESPN had him ranked as the 12th best high school senior in the country, among the likes of John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Xavier Henry, and Derrick Favors.


Lance vs OJ Mayo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOAyUMH2Tng


58 LA Lakers Andy Rautins 2010 SG Syracuse 6' 5" 205


Steadily improving in each of his four seasons at Syracuse, Andy Rautins is now a key contributor on one of the best teams in the nation, leading Syracuse in assists and three-point shooting.


From a physical standpoint, Rautins is underwhelming for an NBA shooting guard, and doesn’t have any notable strength, length, or athleticism to make up for his average size. He has strongly defined strengths and weaknesses as a player, and he plays a style very well suited for his lack of physical prowess.


On the offensive end, Rautins’ game completely revolves around his three-point shot, which he hits with very high accuracy (41%) and is capable of doing in a variety of ways. 81% of his field goal attempts come from beyond the arc, a number that has remained consistent throughout his career at Syracuse. His shot has outstanding mechanics, including a quick and high release point, excellent elevation, and a consistent shooting motion. He does an excellent job squaring his shoulders and maintaining body control when shooting on the move, either catching and shooting or pulling up off the dribble. This also makes him an excellent shooter in transition, where he can stop on a dime and still maintain good form.


In space, Rautins is outstanding, especially when he has time to jump into his shot. Coming off screens and/or shooting with a hand in his face, Rautins is still good, though definitely not on the same level as he is in space, and there are question marks about how these areas of his game will project to the next level, where he’d be facing bigger, longer, and quicker opponents on a nightly basis. On the plus side, Rautins does an excellent job using pump fakes and quick power dribbles to create separation, being able to pull up and square his body whenever he gets the smallest glimpse of daylight. This luxury can also cause problems for him, however, as he’s prone to pulling up for high difficult shots early in the shot clock, either with a hand in his face, from well beyond NBA range, or both.

Aside from his jump shot, Rautins does most of his offensive damage by making strong passes in the flow of the offense, getting the vast majority of his assists through pass penetration, staying on the perimeter and finding cutters in the lane. He’s capable of coming off screens and going into the lane for a drive-and-dish when he already has a step on his man, but is not the type of player that’s going to break a guy down in isolation and draw in the defense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URUXavCxeoY


LA Lakers Trevon Hughes 2010 PG Wisconsin 6' 0" 195 Military school molded Trevon Hughes into a leader for Wisconsin. In addition to being his basketball team's leading scorer, guard Trévon Hughes is a captain for Wisconsin, a title nobody could have predicted years ago for the Queens, N.Y., native.


"I wouldn't say thug, but I was something along those lines," Hughes says of the knack he had for finding trouble.
His mom, Twanna Hutchinson, says Hughes kept making costly missteps in middle school: cutting classes, menacing a kid in the neighborhood and vandalizing an elementary school with his friends.


Now Hughes is a Badgers senior averaging 16.0 points and 5.0 rebounds who wants to protect his turf the right way. No. 16 Wisconsin (16-5) will try to win its 18th home game in a row Tuesday night against fifth-ranked Michigan State (19-3), the Big Ten leader at 9-0. Wisconsin, Purdue, Ohio State and Illinois are tied for second in league play at 6-3.


TOP 25: Wisconsin holds steady at No. 16
TEAM REPORT: Inside the Badgers


Hughes' turnaround began in eighth grade when his mom sent him to military school. Going from problem child to respected role model was a lengthy process. "Coming out to military school helped me learn how to deal with people and listen instead of back talking all the time," he says.

Dexter Pittman C
22 years old; 6'10"; 310 lbs.
Texas, Senior


After a breakout junior season, Dexter Pittman continued his physical transformation in the offseason, losing even more weight while working on his game, and it’s been showing in his performance this season. Pittman’s scoring and minutes are both up, while his efficiencies have shot through the roof, and he continues to rank among the top players in our database in a ton of categories, most notably ranking 2nd in PER, 2nd in EFG% and 6th in offensive rebounds per-40 minutes pace adjusted.


On the offensive end, Pittman has taken his post game to the next level, showing a noticeable improvement in his comfort level and footwork, while he’s definitively developed a go-to move in his right-handed hook shot. Pittman does an excellent job of establishing great position on the block, where he either seals his man for an inside power move to the basket or just backs him down for an easy hook shot across the lane. He appears more confident in his game here, and has kept things simple to work to his strengths.


Dexter Pittman is quite a unique physical specimen in his own right, measuring 6-9 ½ without shoes, with a 7-6 wingspan. He also has the biggest hands in this draft (a new stat) at 10.5 inches.

The fact that Pittman tips the scale at over 300 pounds and measuring nearly 21% body fat (fourth highest in history after Chris Marcus, Oliver Miller and James Lang) tells us that he still has a long ways to go with his conditioning. But if he’s willing to commit himself, he could carve out a long and lucrative professional career.


http://multimedia.foxsports.com/m/video/31509149/draft-preview-dexter-pittman.htm


Thats it...


Wes

The Lakers need to keep AB, sign Bell, sign Blake and sign Mickael Gelabale.

Farmar couldn't beat out a 36 year old point guard,what makes him think he could start and be succesful.Does anybody remember Tyron Lue?

Things I used yell at the TV (or write in letters to Dr. Buss):

"G** ******!!! Put Farmar in the game! F***" - 2009-2010

"WTF Phil, take Kwame out! Bynum is far better and needs to develop! G** ******!!!!" - 2007-2008

"Why is Smush even playing? What a waste of talent. Farmar could do this and he could actually develop into something long term. Come on Phil, just do it already!!!" - 2006-2007

"Dr. Buss, do something and do it now!!! Give me a team of Jordan Farmars and you'll see your team go from joke to champ" - letter I sent to Dr Buss at the conclusion of 2007 season. My reference to Farmar was just to showcase a player that's not considered good, but works his tail off, the Lakers lacked this back then (aside from Kobe of course)

"Del, you mother ******er!! Put Kobe in. We all love Eddie Jones but this is **** ridiculous!! Two seasons already you ***hole" - 1997-1998

"Del, dammit!! Put in Kobe!! You have Jordan sitting on the bench you idiot!!!" 1996-1997 (and yes, I actually verbalized those blasphemous words at my TV)

Not a fan of the "better have two balls on the court" logic. I've seen super teams with multi-scorers who shared one ball to multi-titles. Teams like Boston, Lakers, Detroit in the 80's - star-studded offensive juggernauts with brains.

Great players on a needy team are required to score and hog - what else can the team rely on? When these players go to a well-run organization, they blend in if smart. If not - well, don't trade for the weak-minded.

Jordan is hot and cold - can be a real firestarter and can show himself to be a very very average defender. Good IQ for b-ball - he always looked small on the court to me. He does want to be king - this is an unfortunate mindset, for he is already a king - just doesn't see it. To be a role player on the Lakers for an entire career is, well - beyond the wildest of dreams.

Keep AB, upgrade the bench, and survive his health problems. He poses an impossible formula for opposing teams. If he is a regular season player, so be it. We need those players, too. I am not standing tall on this position, and I'd be happy with what Mitch decides.

KB Blitz - you continue to be the man.

You don't really need a true point guard in the Triangle Offense,but if Phil leaves than going after CP3 would make sense

Tim-4-Show,

I don't have a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" attitude toward Farmar either. But I do recognize that:

a) He wants to "run a team"
b) He is probably not a starter on the Lakers
c) Even if he does start in LA, the Lakers' PG will not "run the team." the offense will be run through Bryant and Gasol (as it should be).


So I see Farmar going someplace where he can play more, have a freer hand running a team, and (probably) lose more. He seems unhappy with not only his minutes but his role here. But if you have Kobe and Pau, you want the ball in their hands most of the time, not a small PG. So Jordan would have to buy into that role to want to stay.


Jordan contributed a lot in these playoffs. But he wants to be something he can't be here, and he is young and he will and should take a shot at it. He will only be in LA if the interest in him is weaker than he expects. And he will probably be frustrated if he is back in LA.


So the Lakers have to look at other options. As long as a guy can handle the ball and has a good basketball IQ, I think he can be a PG or an SG. I'd like to see a guy who can feed the post.


In the Ammo post yesterday I pointed out how little top tier point guards help to win titles. We just need a solid ball handler, spot up shooter and defender. We don't need a floor general.


Tom D


Fools! Don't be this year's Trevor Ariza! Although I'm sick & tired of Farmar's careless play.

lewstrs,

you wrote: Hasn't AB proved he is determined to make his mark...his heart during these playoffs, playing while injured, said it all...

Big men like AB don't grow on trees...He is only 22 yrs old...

my response: umm .... Lamar Odom has played hurt for years. It hasn't
stopped people from wanting to trade him. Sasha has played hurt. It
hasn't stopped people from wanting to trade him. Kobe has played hurt.
It hasn't stopped people [ staples24 ] from wanting to trade him.

This would lead one to the belief that playing hurt has nothing to do with
whether or not some people would make trades.

re: Big men don't grow on trees. From a statistical perspective, and I know
what I've written about stats, Bynums rebounds per game has decreased
the last 2 years. His point total has increased. to be clear:

07/08 13.1/10.2 with 35 games played. [ best rebounding of his life. ]
08/09 14.3/8.0
09/10 15.0/8.3

vs. Chris Bosh

07/08 22.3/8.7
08/09 22.7/10.0
09/10 24.0/10.8

Chris Bosh *IS* a better player!

You have no objective evidence to show that Bynum has better chemistry
with the team than Bosh because Bosh hasn't played with this team.

There is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to support that players who
can play C/PF are better than just players who can play C. Examples:

KG, Duncan, Pau, Bosh.

Examples of pure C's: Howard, Shaq ...

No. I'm not putting Bynum in the list of C's because he hasn't been able to
average a double-double for more than 50 games in his entire life!

If you are willing to upgrade a position to get better at that position ....

That sentiment should be true regardless of the position. Otherwise, you're
not talking about getting better at a position. You're talking about getting
rid of someone you don't care for. Call a spade a spade.

The backcourt of CP3 & Kobe is fearsome!

We have not had a high-scoring C for 3 years. We have had a high-scoring
PF/C for 3 years and we've gone to the finals 3 years in a row. We have won
the championship with an injured C for 2 years in a row. That should tell
you which player/position is more important.

Tom Daniels, is your comment indicative that CP3 & Bryant both need the
ball?

I appreciate what you're saying Tom Daniels, but I'm not sure I agree 100% yet.

Yeah, he wants to start. He wanted that in 2007 and thought he had it, then Derek came back.

He wants some minutes and a significant role. I don't feel he needs to "run a team" like CP3 or Kobe or someone like that. His minutes were kept at 20 or below regardless of his play this season. Same story last season. Same story the season before, Hence, his role has not changed in 4 seasons = frustration.

I wrote out the things I used to yell at the TV to draw a parallel - hard working players that are also talented deserve and will thrive if given the chance. You've got to do it. Trading Kwame opened the door for Bynum. He didn't have a shot before that. Trading Eddie Jones opened the door for Kobe. He literally wasn't getting a chance before that (yeah, stunning I know)... JF while not as good as either of these two guys is similar in the sense that he works and cares a WHOLE bunch and guys like this that get a chance usually make the most of it... but somewhere along the line you have to actually give a chance.

If JF is that bitter, and I can't say I'd blame him (though I'd be disappointed) then I see him as sign & trade bait.... otherwise, good luck finding someone that skilled at this price.

And yeah, you may not *need* a guy that can get to the rack at the PG spot, but can you at least point me in the direction of someone that can play some D, dribble the ball, pass the ball, and lead the team in 3pt % at this price???

No.

But, hopefully Mitch finds a way to prove me wrong.

And if there's someone beside Mitch to prove me wrong, it's Sasha V... your new starting PG of the future. Hmmm, just doesn't sound right, but whatever.

We know that Bynum cannot play a season without getting hurt. If bosh is available we must trade Bynum for him. Period.
Jordan Farmer is right. He should go somewhere else to at least explore his chances of being the best he can be. It clear that playing in the triangle will not make him a good player. I perfectly understand where he is coming from.
Rondo would have never improved had he been with the Lakers. Ditto, Williams, CP3, Westbrook and all the rest. No point guard in Jackson's offense has turned out to be an average point guard in this league.
Hopefully, farmer finds a team where he is allowed to handle the ball more often.

And now the point guard you're all ignoring...

http://tinyurl.com/2emfae7

Chris Paul says that if New Orleans is rebuilding, he wants to be traded to a contender. New Orleans is also in the process of selling the team, and lopping off one or two huge long-term contracts might make the sale go easier.

And reportedly teams have been making big offers - Orlando has offered Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter, New Jersey has offered Devin Harris and the #3 pick in this year's draft.

Lakers don't have a great point guard to throw in an offer, but New Orleans has Collison, so that might not be required. I'll re-state my thinking from earlier in the year - Lakers could offer some sort of package involving Bynum for Paul.

Bynum is an injury risk, but he's one of the top 2 or 3 centers in the league in a time when quality centers are more rare than quality point guards.

If you want one of the top PGs in the league, you've got to give up a great player to get them, even if their team is having a bit of a yard sale for him (which New Orleans isn't yet).

The Lakers would have to get back a quality big in the deal to make them do it. Right now Bynum-Gasol-Odom is a pretty strong front court. Gasol-Odom-Powell isn't nearly as good. But if it's a salary dump trade by New Orleans, then I'm sure they'd love to get Okafor's 5 more years of salary off their books as well.

So if indeed New Orleans goes fire-sale mode to dump salaries off their books (which I doubt), then a trade like:

Bynum + Vujacic + sign & trade Farmar
for
CP3 + Okafor

would get the job done. A starting lineup of Okafor-Gasol-Artest-Bryant-Paul would be beastly on both ends of the floor.

But it's a pipe dream. Much as Chris Paul is talking right now, and much as ESPN is willing to hype it, I don't think he's going anywhere. More likely, they'll offer Collison to anyone willing to take Peja's contract off their hands and take nothing in return.

>>>How can anyone think there could be a better trio than Kobe-Pau-Bynum...

I'm not sure, but it's possible that Kobe-Pau-CP3 could be even better.

hobbitimage,

No, it was not a "need the ball" comment really. And, to be honest, it was probably too flippant.


I just don't think a "floor general" type PG, a guy who runs the offense, fits here. The offense runs through Kobe and Pau. A guy like CP wants to run things. He won't be able to handle the ball enough to make his salary make sense.


Personally, I'd rather have Bynum's size and defensive presence and a good solid guard than two SFs and CP3 on the floor, given the playmaking ability of Kobe and Pau. Length wins.


Tom D

>>>Mickael Gelabale

Jelly belly?

You've gotta be kidding. You know that he was with the Lakers for a pre-season but couldn't make the team.

There was a time when 11 rings Phil Jackson wanted Kobe Bryant off the team. He didn't trust him, didn't like him, and felt he was too head strong to coach.

Hmmm.

Wes Joe,

I like Vasquez. But in the second round, the Lakers often pick someone I've never heard of (other than when they picked Luke).

>>>LEAVE THE CORE PLAYERS ALONE...
>>>
>>>Build around Kobe-Pau-AB-Artest-Odom...

For the most part I agree with that.

But if you could get Chris Paul, I'd consider breaking up the Fab Five.

Good morning, everyone.


We need to draft a center and trade for a point guard.


Farmar's attitude is a big reason why I've never really liked him. Good riddens.


Brown's attitude is why I hope he remains a Laker.


What do we play for? RINGS!!!


Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.


GO LAKERS!!!

>>>Farmar couldn't beat out a 36 year old point guard,what makes him think he
>>>could start and be succesful.

A 36 year old point guard who has had some of the most clutch moments in the history of the NBA. Fisher looked like a dead fish all season, but for most of the playoffs he looked like a shark. If this was any other team and any other coach, they probably would have replaced Fish with Farmar by about mid January (when Farmar was on a hot streak).

Farmar had one start in the last two seasons. It was in the Western Conference semi-finals vs Houston, when Fish got suspended. The Lakers handled the Rockets in that game, and Farmar played very well vs Aaron Brooks.

I believe Farmar would be just as good a starter as Fisher.

How about this...

Lakers trade Bynum for Chris Paul...

and then sign Shaq for the MLE for two years.

Shaq-Gasol-Artest-Kobe-CP3

whoooooo wee

I wouldn't mind Raja Bell for the biannual exception. Anything more than that would be overpaying.

A little about my views of the Lakers off-season but first a post about the secrect of their success over the decades.

First Magic was correct in giving Dr. Buss a lot of credit. It is amazing how much success in sports comes down to a good owner. The Lakers are profitable but so are the Clippers but for vastly different reasons. Buss pays a premium for players with the luxury tax but then usually gets a full slew of playoff games in return. Great for him, great for us.

He also leads to the second point. Good front office. He and now his kids seem to strike a good balance between input but also respecting and hiring good talent evaluators. But when they do get involved, Bynum and Artest come to mind, they have made very sucessful decisions, most of the time. I do think we haven't gotten enough except for Bynum out of our recent half dozen or more draft picks. We need to up that part of the Lakers. I think it is no accident, though, that the second most successful NBA franchise the last 10-15 years, the Spurs, also have a good owner and perhaps even better talent evaluators(front office, certainly they are better at drafts).

Third great players/coaches. Dah. But if the first two things aren't in place, number three never happens. L.A. has an edge over San Antonio as a place people want to play. That helps with players.

Fourth and not to be underestimated is a little luck. Let's face it, the streak of 3 championships to start the 2000s at least the one with Sacramento we easily could have never even been in the finals. We also could have lost to Portland in game 7. And for San Antonio their championship teams were built on a lot of luck. A very, very timely injury leading to Tim Duncan as the first pick. BUT if the other things I had mentioned had not been in place, they still would not have been a championship team.

Anyhow if Buss and I would assume at some point his kids continue to run the franchise as they have, we should all except continued success to at worse be contending for championships. Having Pau and hopefully a healthy Bynum extends Kobes possible championship years to hopefully at least the next 5 or so.

Now to the off-season. Is Pau's brother available? We need one more big man because we are not sure about Bynum. An upgrade over DJ would be most welcome. I am hoping a good vet big man, if Marc doesn't work out or is no possibility (he might have a few years on contact) wanting a ring will sign on.

As for point guard...I like Shannon. The staff and ownership knows a lot more than I do if they think he could be the answer at point guard. I'd like to, of course, keep Fish, but I think our starting point guard both for Fish's sake and the team needs to be someone else the coming year. Or if Fish starts, his minutes will need to be less than the average starting point in the NBA.

So who wants to join us for another ring? We do need a good off-season but with our core we just need a solid off-season not a great one to be up there for next year and the ones to follow.

I meant we don't know about Bynum's health, not Bynum himself as a player in my above post. We need a good backup big man. Bynum is still so young. If he gets strength in the knees and legs or just some better luck you do NOT trade him period. Certainly at this point in time you don't even think about trading him.

Learn from Trevor last year and Fish in 2004. The grass is not greener Farmar. L.A. is basketball's Mecca. 100 other point gaurds would love to trade places with you. You will probably play more minutes next year and start the year after that. Just relax and collect rings until then. You want to be on the roster when the Lakers with their 18th. 1 ahead of Boston and Kobe gets his 7th, 1 ahead of MJ in 2 more years.

We don't need Chris Paul.


We run the Triangle. We don't need a traditional point guard. We essentially need a younger, longer Derek Fisher who plays defense, has heart and athletic ability, and can make big shots.


And has the intelligence and flexibility to learn the Triangle QUICKLY.


That's it.


He's out there.


What do we play for? RINGS!!!


Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.


GO LAKERS!!!

Draft a center.


Second round, draft a power forward.


Get Raja Bell [I hate the guy, but if Kobe respects him, he's worth it.]


Get Steve Blake and/or Shaun Livingston.


Done.


What do we play for? RINGS!!!


Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.


GO LAKERS!!!

Draft a center.


Second round, draft a power forward.


Get Raja Bell [I hate the guy, but if Kobe respects him, he's worth it.]


Get Steve Blake and/or Shaun Livingston.


Done.


What do we play for? RINGS!!!


Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.


GO LAKERS!!!

Tom Daniels,

>>>A guy like CP wants to run things. He won't be able to handle the ball enough
>>>to make his salary make sense.

Well, if it was just a matter of ADDING Paul to the existing squad, then that would probably be the case. But consider these things:

1. Chris Paul is a better shooter than any starting PG the Lakers have had in a LOOOOOONG time. He out-shot Fisher overall (49%) from the 3-point line (41%) and shot about the same on free throws (85%) as Fisher this season. And Paul is a much better defender than Fisher. In other words, Chris Paul doesn't NEED to have the ball in his hands every play to make him more valuable to the Lakers than Fisher.

2. If the Lakers acquire Chris Paul (which I doubt is possible), they would be trading for him, so they would be giving up a bunch of salary to get him. If the core deal is Bynum for Paul, then the Lakers total salary would increase by about 1 million per year over the next 3 years to do that deal.

----

In summary - Fisher gets paid a modest salary by NBA standards because you are paying for a guy who plays average defense, is a so-so passer, and a decent 3-point shooter. With Paul, you'd be paying 3 times as much for a guy who is an excellent passer, and excellent shooter, and an excellent defender.

Worth every penny.

>>>Now to the off-season. Is Pau's brother available?

Nope. Marc is signed with the Grizz through next season, and at a VERY reasonable price.

Oooouuuuccch, you aren't kidding. That was as gut-wrenching (for me) as game 7!

>>>As for point guard...I like Shannon.

And I don't, for the same reason I don't like Sasha at PG.

If one of those guys is the only PG on the floor, the Lakers often end up passing the ball around the outside for 23 seconds and then jacking up a long jump shot.

Farmar is much more likely to get the ball into the post. Or dribble it into the lane and score, or dish for a short shot (or turn the ball over, but that's a risk).

I like how Kobe endorses signing aggressive defenders even if they had differences in the past. First Ron, now Bell. No grudges held if they can help the team. You can never have enough good defenders.

If Shaq wants to play for us at half the mid level we should sign him. Assuming Kobe agrees of course. I thik Shaq would come back if we made a pitch.

of course, this debate between a point guard and an aging defensively minded shooting guard hinges upon whether we'll be running the triangle or something else next season.

Phil, we need an answer!

In the Gasol/Bynum comparisons, something that should be looked at is the teammates each player has.

Bosh is not playing with Gasol, LO and Kobe.

Bosh is not likely to avg 23/10 playing with Pau, LO and Kobe. Bosh won't get as many shots or free throws as he gets now if he plays with Kobe and Pau.

When comparing stats Bosh played 6 minutes per game more than Drew, so Bosh should have more rebounds, points.

How about turnovers - Drew 1.7, Bosh 2.4.
Blocked shots - Drew 1.45, Bosh .97

Last year Bosh had 600 shot attempts to get those 24 ppg, Drew had 392 shot attempts.

Drew made .57% of his shots, Bosh made .518% of his shots.

Bosh took 329 more free throws than Drew because he played more minutes and more games adding to his ppg total.

How about an intangible like altering shots ability. Drew is taller, heavier, longer and stronger.

Using stats, Drew is a better defensive player and shoots for a higher % than Bosh.

When someone fights Drew for a rebound they fall down and tear knee ligaments from a 7', 285 lb body leaning against them :)


Kobe would want Shaq back?
I would be amazed.
After what Shaq said/did if I were Kobe I would tell him hey big dude, we been to 3 finals without you, go take a long walk off a short pier.

I said Gasol/Bynum comparisons, I meant Bosh/Bynum comparisons.

Tim-4-show,

Look dude, we all have watched the same games as you and saw what Jordan is capable of doing. We appreciated his play in his first season when he actually played some decent on ball defense. We appreciated him understanding he had to earn his way. We appreciated his spot up 3 point shooting this season very much. We appreciate his generally good finishes on breaks and creation of a decent shot at the ends of quarters.

But, we also see his deficiencies, many of which are attitudinal. Sure, he was promised something he didn't get and when he played better he wasn't rewarded in more minutes. That's how it goes!

I completely understand him wanting a different situation. I would too. More money and more minutes. Every player wants that and deserves an opportunity to pursue it. However, there's something else.

If he had the right attitude, played better D, would have been at least open to the idea of passing Sasha or Kobe the ball last year, could at least slow down opposing point guards and made better decisions in the triangle instead of trying to play shoot first number one guy on the team point guard, he'd be staying. He has a psychological shortcoming that makes him perform poorly for us so he's not able to realize all of his abilities. He's like a microcosm of Shaq, c. 2004.

We don't like his attitude and if he wants to be gone? Fine. We don't want you either because so far you've helped, but you haven't been that great. And you are replaceable.

Crit, Shannon and Fisher have all given him a run for his money. Sasha too.

Jordan has a number of deficiencies in his output that are not necessarily those of his ability. His ability DOES NOT MATTER. What he gives us does.

I hope he ends up with Larry Brown. Brown will kick his ass and show him how he's supposed to play as a point guard for a team, not for himself, and make his ass play defense (that sort of came out wrong though I think you know what I mean).

Jordan is the rock dropped on Phil's smooth, calm zen-like lake that disrupts it.

I do appreciate Jordan having good discretion with the media. But, what he does is a lot more important than what he says or doesn't. What he hasn't done reflects a fatal personality flaw which means he must now leave the Lakers.

I'm certain we will somehow survive without him.

His me, me, me attitude in his exit interview is a serious turn-off. After that and everything else, some of us get annoyed or even angry and that's why we've told him, "Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

Search your feelings trying to see the whole picture and you can better understand ours. There are other points of view that take more factors into account. And like yours, they may also have truth to them.

Being sided up with LTLF is usually a pretty good place to be. We are the Lakers. We'll figure it out. And for the last 3 years management has done a pretty darn good job. While we lose something in Farmar we'll gain something in someone else. Maybe it costs us 2M more a year (after luxury taxes)? It's probably worth it for better team chemistry and some real defense.

Keen Observer,

re: Shaq. He would kill the team chemistry.

>>>Draft a center.

With the 43rd pick in the draft, the Los Angeles Lakers draft Art Parakhouski of Radford College.

>>>Second round, draft a power forward.

With the 58th pick in the draft, the Los Angeles Lakers draft Derrick Caracter.

>>>Get Raja Bell [I hate the guy, but if Kobe respects him, he's worth it.]

Okay. Assuming they keep Vujacic and Brown, Bell is a bit redundant, but he's certainly a better defender than either Shasha or Shannon.

>>>Get Steve Blake and/or Shaun Livingston.

Presumably to replace Farmar as backup PG.

Except that you didn't mention re-signing Derek Fisher. Throw in Fisher and maybe you've got the new team.

Add the fab-five to that mix and they have a shot for a three-peat.

Hey Jordan, chewing of the gum doesn't hide your in security- it highlights your arrogance...
Welcome back Shannon- strength- security- ability - and humility will bring you much success!

ar has 2 rings, and now he wants to see where he can take his career as a player. He can be in a more run and gun atmosphere and maybe blossom at a differen, non structured rate. I don't feel there are enough places to go without younger players just as wild all over the league. Trevor had the same itch...more power to him. Jordan wants to go some place so he can compete against the Lakers, and show his skills. In the long run, he won't develop defensively, which will hurt his long range success.

If the Lakers have a legitimate shot @ acquiring Chris Paul they would be remiss to ignore it, even it meant losing Bynum, which I would hate to see happen. But from a marketing and business perspective, it just makes sense. One of their weaknesses was glaringly exposed during the playoffs......they need another outside shooter and Paul can do just that. Add in Fishers age (he can't play much longer/reload now) and declining defensive abilities, the point guard slot is a hole that needs plugging. All this talk about the triangle does not require a point guard is irrelevant. They need another outside shooting presence as an outlet esp. when Kobe's trapped in double/triple coverages outside the paint. Another floor general Phil can trust would make this team "far more" lethal. Farmar is right, Phil hesitates to give him floor time and does not seem to trust him.....Paul is a great answer to solve all these dilemmas. Sign and trade Farmar to New Orleans with whatever else you can get them to bite on and if they demand Bynum too......so be it.

GUYS GUYS GUYS!!!!!

stop guessing and wishing for players to be on the lakers team...

we dont touch the starting 4 +1 bench LO: Gasol, Kobe, Bynum, Artest,

we dont need a center!!!! i think we need another very good PG to back up FIsh and we need another LO type of forward who can cause damage to the opposing team. and when we say that i cant help but to think of TMAC!!! stop bashing on Tmac and how he sucksss this and that, his a cancer, a bad luck... call it what you want to call it but he is the best option that we have!!!

he said he wants to come to the lakers, he said his willing to take a pay cut just to get a ring, he says he dosnt mind coming off the bench as a second option (just like LO) and he wants to play with KOBE leading the team... i mean can a laker fan ask for more??? the guys pure gold!! his the most consisten play that can creat his own shots plus drive in the lane for a dunk or an easy layup... the man can do it all... he would be better than LO... i mean can you imagine how hard it would be for the opposing team to see kobe and Tmac on the court at the same time who are great shooters?? who are they gonna stop?? they cant contain both!! this is why we need him.... let everyone know that we do need TMAC!!

yeah sure he had bad experience with injures and stuff but he trained with the best athletic trainer that also treated Michale Jordan, Kobe ext... so he says he feels rejuvinated and is going to be an all star...

nuff said...
Gasol, Bynum, Kobe, Artest, Fish, LO, Tmac, Brown,

Farmar- GONE
Sasha - GONE
Morrison-GONE
Mbenga- GONE

jon K,

"Draft a center.
Second round, draft a power forward.
Get Raja Bell [I hate the guy, but if Kobe respects him, he's worth it.]
Get Steve Blake and/or Shaun Livingston.
Done."


Done and perfect! Until somebody can get thru our Lakers starting five, I would not mess with it. Bench needs upgrade, Blake and Bell should do it.


Jerry Buss made this a great organization because he makes his players Lakers for LIFE. Not like other elite teams who jump ship everytime but never builds a dynasty like the Lakers.


Lakers are a DYNASTY right now, DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES TO YOUR CORE TEAM of BYNUM, GASOL, ODOM, ARTEST, BRYANT and FISHER!!!!


Chemistry, playing with eachother for 3 NBA Finals in the same system counts a lot!!!


All Lakerfans should understand this.


The Lakers should keep Shannon Brown. He can get better and he has a good team attitude and work ethic.

Farmar has too swollen a head. He is just not an elite guard. He doesn't want to come off the bench. However, all I see is him coming off the bench on every other team. He is limited on defense. He is too small to go against the bigger point guards. Even CP3 would eat his lunch.

The reason Derek was the starter are numerous. But Derek, despite his height, could strongly play against the best guards in the league - as this championship showed. Derek played exceedingly well against the monster guards of the league.

Shannon isn't as bright as Derek. This is a significant limitation. But Shannon can grow up to be very useful a guard, perhaps a starter.

Chris Paul's talent and attitude is of Braynt's caliber, the only question is will he fit into the system, the Superstars we have.


We know Bynum fits well with the system, we know Bynum plays well with Gasol and KOBE. We know Bynum will get the rebounds no others can reach, we know Bynum intimidates shots from Perkins, Garnett to Rondo.


Chris Bosh should not be in the discussion because he is a duplicate of what the Lakers have in Odom and Gasol. That is 3 PF and no True Center. That is a recipe for disater!


Let's find a market for JF through sign and trade with another Laker not necessarioy named Bynum. How about LO or Sasha or even UPS provided we are getting the right piece for the position taken over.

On the contrary, if the addition next season will only be J-Critt and Raja Bell, I think we met the objective of having a tall PG, a faster PG, a PG who can be work horse during the season. It would be great if Lakers could get additional players who are good perimeter shooters from the Euro League. That's what we need just a little tinkering of the line up replace them with good bench, hungry players who want to improve and win another ring like RonRon type not swell headed guys who want to be the focus or the star guard.


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