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Poll question: Did Pau Gasol foul Hedo Turkoglu?

Pau Gasol:Lamar Odom #12

Surely there were many areas that contributed to the Lakers' 106-105 loss to the Toronto Raptors, beyond controversial officiating calls.

I noted in an earlier post that the Lakers presented problems Sunday that need to be corrected regardless of the outcome. But I'll admit the call involving Pau Gasol's foul on Toronto's Hedo Turkoglu was a head-scratcher, especially since the play took place in the final seconds of the game.

Gasol certainly took issue with the call, telling reporters afterward, "I don't think I pushed him. The momentum carried him to fall like that. It was a questionable call. I don't think I pushed him at all. My arm was on his back, but I never pushed him."

Watch the highlights for another look. The play in question begins at the 1:25 mark. 

I certainly recognize that this poll is really preaching to the choir here. But I'm curious to see to what degree Lakers fans disagree with the call. More importantly, I'd like to read your overall take on the call itself in the comments section below.

-- Mark Medina

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It was a brute of a game but, homerism aside, that seemed to be about as clear of a foul as it gets. Turkeyglue drove to the lane, there was contact, he went down.

The closing moments of a game shouldn't be a foul-free period - the rules still apply.

Hobbitimage,

I enjoy your posts.I don't always agree with them,but when i do i love it...

The lakers lost because they went away from Gasol in the 2nd half. Replace Hedo with Kobe, should there be a foul call? I thought so...

Great officalating from the inconsistant NBA referees once again, since when do NBA referees began blowing the whistle with less than 2 seconds remaining in the quaters? It was a BS call and I bet the referee who blew it was in a blind spot, like aways. I wish there were referees who had a clear shot at the play and saw what really happen, go up to the referee who did not see it and say, "Hey, I saw it clearly and NO it is not the right call." And reverse the call, because all these unsure calls these idiot referees call are costing teams games. It is very sad that professional sports cannot call their games correctly.

Pretty marginal call even if it wasn't the last seconds of the game, especially given 2 factors:

a) Turkoglu's reputation for being a flopper

b) Turkoglu's celebration after the play which clearly seemed to indicate "I just fooled the refs with a flop" type of excitement.

So yes, it was a bogus call, 100%.

2 Losses on a road trip both decided by refs in the final seconds. The NBA, where Bullpoo happens. Nightly.

The Lakers lost because they gave up second chance opportunities, could not secure loose rebounds and stop them defensively when a stop was needed. The game was not lost on a Pau Gasol foul, in my opinion. We lost it when we decided we would not be playing any defense.

It's a foul in virtue of the referee calling it one. People might dispute the grounds upon which it was called (especially with worries about consistency), but it doesn't make it less of a foul.

CornerJ,

you wrote:

You know, hobbitimage, you're becoming a one-trick pony here and a complete bore with your incessant carping about Bynum and non-stop ambushing of Laker Tom. The biggest problem for you is, in the actual game yesterday, once we all got to see both of them play against one another, you'd have to be an idiot not to notice that Bynum more than held his own against Bosh. In fact, he stuff blocked him a couple of times, outscored him, and clearly showed who the true center is (and FYI, in case you still didn't catch the clue, it ain't Bosh). Bosh clearly is a natural PF, very much like Garnett, who prefers the high post area and mainly shoots mid-range jumpers. Very good player, NOT great. Thanks, but I'm sticking with Bynum.

And Laker Tom, your noting the similarities of Bynum to Jabbar, was very insightful. Jabbar never was a great defender, and obviously you weren't saying that Bynum is as good as Jabbar, or ever will be. But the similarities in characteristics and demeanor are right on.


my response:

1st. Hello.

2nd. You should pay more attention to what I write.

If you actually paid attention to what I wrote, you would have noticed the
following:

1. Bynum had a good game against Toronto.

note: this is actually not what I wrote about Bynum's games in Dec. To
clarify, because you seem not to be paying attention, in Decebmer
I wrote that Bynum was loafing, that he wasn't trying, that he was
unhappy because Pau came back, that he was focused more on
being an all-star vs. winning a championship.

2. re: LakerTom. Hmmm ... Were you reading/paying attention when I
supported LakerTom or where you busy doing something else?

3. Did you actually read what LakerTom wrote or were you just looking to
take a shot at me? Allow me to clarify things for you:

LakerTom just compared Bynum to Kareem Abdul Jabar. Think about
that for a second. Maybe you're still not getting it. Allow me to clarify
my stance. From wikipedia.com:

Alcindor had an outstanding career at UCLA. As of the 2008-2009 season, he still holds or shares a number of individual records at UCLA:[8]

* Highest career scoring average: 26.4
* Most career field goals: 943 (tied with Don MacLean)
* Most points in a season: 870 (1967)
* Highest season scoring average: 29.0 (1967)
* Most field goals in a season: 346 (1967)
* Most free throw attempts in a season: 274 (1967)
* Most points in a single game: 61
* Most field goals in a single game: 26 (vs. Washington State, 2/25/67)

That is Kareem in college. Bynum actually didn't go to college. LakerTom
has indicated that Bynum is intelligent and well read. Does it bother you
that I asked what books he's actually read? Did you consider that this
question was asked in light of his lack of education? Did you consider that
, in general, the educational quality of the US has deteriorated over the last
30 years?

re: Bynum & defense. Did you read *why* Bynum didn't work with Kareem
this past summer? Do you remember what Kareem's defense was like?
Allow me to jog your memory:

On defense, Abdul-Jabbar maintained a dominant presence. He was selected to the NBA All-Defensive Team eleven times. He frustrated opponents with his superior shot-blocking ability, denying an average 2.6 shots a game.

This year Bynum is averaging 1.6. blocks.

If you wish to agree with LakerTom about Bynum you are welcome to. There
have been a number of times that I have agreed with LakerTom. Making
outrageous comments about a player who has yet to play a full season,
won/been awarded a single accolade & who just *MISSED* the team flight
to the game seems ridiculous. Excuse me for wanting more from the team I
cheer for. Excuse me for wanting a fellow fan to have a marginal grasp of
reality.

BTW, are you smoking crack too?

I probably wouldn't ahve called it. But it can be called so... live and die with it.
We lost not due to that foul, but die to the fatal final five minutes of hectic, unfocused play.

I won't blame anyone else but us there.

Next game, another story to be written.

Go LakerLand :)

Serious and complete BS call. Gasol barely touched him and he flopped all dramatically!

What a ridiculous question and argument this is:

lets ask Lakers fans if this was a foul.... and if it is, should it be called that late in the game? I wonder what kind of result this gets on a Raptors site....

A foul is a foul regardless of how late or early in the game it is. If they completely stop calling fouls at the end of the game, why can one not simply tackle or hold the opposing player to prevent them from even getting a shot off? Where does the not calling a foul end? What about an intentional foul to force FTs? probably shouldn't call those if you aren't going to call fouls in the last few seconds either.


Pau even admitted to having his arm on Hedo's back (athough he claims he didn't "push"). He fouled Hedo... Lakers fans know it, Raps fans know it, basketball fans know it.

Arguing that its too late in the game to call a foul is just ridiculous.

The Lakers problems are a lot deeper than what occurred in the last 2 seconds, at the end of 4th quarters it appears the Laker players are winded and begin to reach instead of moving their feet, either use more of the bench throughout the game or conditioning may need addressing. Lack of consistent defense is costing them wins. The call was 50/50 at best.

This cracked me up before, Today, it is down right hilarious!
http://tinyurl.com/ybajz9q

BYE BYE Brett

Being a Raps fan we are the first to be wary of phantom calls. The number of times we've seen teams come into our building and get bailed out by refs giving other teams the benefit of the doubt is astounding. LeBron has to look at Bargnani and a foul is called on Bargnani.

So, with that sensitivity in mind, I examine whether the Raps finally got the benefit of call in this case: and they did, and it is about time. I think it was a 50/50 call: could have gone either way. Look, there was contact, it was an aggressive drive, and there were three players, any one of which had some kind of contact with Turkoglu. On home court with an aggressive drive and that many collapsed players having SOME KIND OF CONTACT, you better believe there ought to be a foul. If a Laker made the same play as Turk you better believe he would have got the benefit of the call, especially if the game were in the Staples Centre.

Turk has a reputation for flopping? I guess you, Mayor of Kobe Town, a Lakers fan, get your information from the Boston Celtics. I only heard that once coming from Rasheed Wallace, after Turk admittedly enhanced the contact after Sheed kept setting a series of moving screens. As Lakers fans ought to know, Boston is the best team at setting illegal screens and getting away with it.

DKWSFO
- - - - - - - - -
Thanks for your response. I also cannot disagree with your comments about being more aggressive. If I were Drew, I would be using that great quick spin move he uses to get open for backdoor lobs to get inside position on every rebound and to seal my defender deep in the paint on every possession. Of course, I might not have that same motor if I were 7-1 and 285#. That was the only point I was making. Drew gets ignored for such long periods of time that he must get frustrated at not getting the ball when he does get good position or does have an easy lob opportunity. At any rate, I too wish he would be more active but I think some of that is still hesitancy because of his inexperience and because of anxiety and lack of trust of his knees. Maybe if he gets by January this year, he will start to unleash his physicality, which we only see on occasion. Until then, we will have to live with just a Beastling and await the full grown Beast next year after he is fully recovered both physically and mentally. I think Drew is playing well but not like a Beast. We actually are in agreement.
- - - - - - - - -
Tom

Was there contact? Or was it just another NBA player falling to the ground on a drive? Man these ultra-coordinated athletes sure can't seem to stay on their feet. Good thing they don't play football.

Is there anything uglier than a "bully" team that whines about a call that they would whine about had the shoe been on the other foot?
Laker fans should be happy that Bosh, the supposed "upgrade" for the Lakers was still dominated by both the "soft" Gasol and Bynum....relax, you don't have to waste $130 mil on someone who makes Gasol look tough, like the Raptors are going to this summer.

Glad to see this ridiculous poll woke up RaptorNation who are starting to chime in here with some real perspective on all of this.

Let's just say the original poll, the results and subsequent early responses were pretty much what you'd expect... Chill out Laker fans, this is but a blip on an otherwise stellar season. Chill.

Pretty interesting game last night. The Raptors played at a high level. Jack and Bellinelli made some pretty amazing circus-style shots in some crucial situations. Sometimes, you just have to give props where they're due.

It's always interesting to watch the Lakers on road trips. Since I don't live in CA, I watch the games on DirecTV's NBA Pass, so a lot of the time, I'm watching the other team's broadcast and listening to their announcers. You know what several of them are saying (including Toronto's guys last night)? Something like "If the Lakers are smart, they'll keep pounding the ball inside to Bynum and Gasol".

Last night, I noticed the same pattern I've seen in previous games. Early in the game, we do pound it inside to our bigs. But in the 4th quarter, Kobe starts directing the bigs (especially Bynum) to come up top and set a screen for him. There was one specific time when Bynum posted up his man and Kobe pulled up, gave Bynum a dirty look, and waved his arm, motioning for him to set the screen. Bynum did, both defenders went to Kobe, Bynum rolled to the lane, and Kobe threw up a contested jumper over the double team and missed.

That's the sort of thing that has always bugged me about Kobe. Just the other day he's telling his teammates (through the media) to demand the ball and be aggressive, yet on the floor, when they do he yells at them because they're not setting screens for him. And it's simply stupid basketball to not hit the open man and chuck up contested jumpers.

What saves Kobe and the Lakers is his talent. Even though his style of play frustrates the crap out of me, I'm always in awe of how often he manages to pull it off. One cannot help but feel lucky at times to be watching such an amazing player. If only he were as smart as he were talented.

the Andrew Bynum missing the plane story is humorous but strange... you would think SOMEBODY would have said, hey, where's Andrew? Not one person noticed he wasn't on the bus or wherever they were meeting up? What's up with that? Did Mbenga notice and not say anything, thinking he might get some playing time? LOL!

CornerJ

Why the hostile tone on hobbit? He's just stating his opinions no more than lakertom states his... Lakerttom is no less guilty than anyone else around here when it comes to being judgmental... He calls out lakerfans as being haters when they come close to criticizing his boytoy bynum.. He says all fans should be "ashamed of themselves" for saying anything remotely negative about bynum ... If anyone does any bashing or engages in any hateful or overlybiased posts its LT himself.

As I said BEFORE this trip, I expected the Lakers to struggle. They are seriuosly banged up.

0 Their best player, Kobe, has a broken finger that is clearly affecting his play.

0 Their best defender, Artest, has foot problems or something that are impacting his athleticism.

0 Their key bench player, Odom, is one handed. The incredible ball handling skills of our PF are pretty much gone and he is grabbing boards awkwardly with one hand. Still getting them, but not able to then turn and take the ball quickly up the floor himself. Not able to drive to the hole.


So with these handicaps they head out on a tough 8 game road trip. They are going to lose a few. Hopefully it will be a blessing in a very good disguise - when these guys start to heal after the All Star break they will have something to prove, a chip on their shoulder that will lead to the Lakers peaking at the right time.


But no cause for panic. Just an ugly stretch in the 82 game marathon. Never seen a Laker team that didn't have one, except maybe 71-72.


Tom Daniels

Now, I can not believe that we are standing so low as to question the referee calls. Don't other teams in NBA always blame us that our players protected by referees. Now, let's don't blame referee for our own poor playing. Suck it up, and play!!!

You could call a foul on every play in basketball, just like you could call holding on every play in football. Difference makers are the refs. Normally refs do not call game changing calls in basketball during the last 4 seconds of the game. In the end, it will all even out. Laker fans let's not cry over this one, because in the end we will always get our share of calls. Everyone wants to beat the Lakers because we are NBA champions, so they bring their "A" game whenever they step on the court against the Lakers. Get use to it, it's not going to change and has been that way since the West and Chamberlain days. The refs are no different then the opposing team, we have to play and forget about the officials.

It's not going to get any better in terms of officiating so be prepared mentally when you see strange calls.

Defenitely was a foul, lets replace Hedo with Kobe. In that case who would have blamed the call! Honestly!

As for Bynum missing the flight! They cannot hold up a flight for one person -- or rather, I've heard that they do not do this. He's not on the plane, they have a schedule they have to adhere to...

LakerTom,


I asked, and possibly not only me, to shows up during the game and try to defend your "pet project" Andrew Bynum while we having a chat. Comparing him to Kareem Abdul Jabar? You got be kidding me, you either got high or slowly morphing into well known here MikeT with his fascination regarding famous "calves". Bynum not even an ALL-Star yet and at present I regret to give my vote for this season. First of all, he is making a lot stupid decisions, yes I know you going to repeat like a lot of people out there he is only 22 and blah blah blah. I’m hearing all of this already 5th year in the row with only difference being his age. Does he ever going to be mature and mentally tough? Will he ever live up to what called here, potential. I’m ready starting to hate this word because to me it’s hiding inability to move from “wonder kid” to “super man”. Oversleeping? Missing teams plane? Do you want to talk about basketball? Ok, how about yesterday surrounded by 3 defenders, with Kobe in clear view on the perimeter, and someone else he still can not pass out of triple team and went straight trying to overpower 3 Raptors players, loosing the ball at the end and ultimately creating a turnover. But after watching carefully I started getting idea, he either does not know about passing from double or triple team, or just don’t care. Speaking about don’t care, this kind of Bynum’s attitude we seeing more and more on defensive end, looks like protecting our basket just an afterthought for him. I don’t know what is it maybe his not very smart agent, remember the one who orchestrated Ariza departure from Lakers for essentially the same kind of money to Houston, who privately emphasis Total PTS vs. Everything Else. But it very obvious boy does not care about anything else but scoring.

yellofever, Hobbit has A LOT of time on his hands apparently and it is quite annoying to write something on a blog no less and then have someone sit there, take it apart piece by piece saying, "you wrote", "my response" when... in the end, who really cares? I just like writing comments on the Lakers, I'm not writing a dissertation, just a quick comment on this or that and then I do something else. Hobbit on the other hand... gets into these intense details... sometimes it's funny, sometimes... it's a bit much... for a friggin BLOG about dudes who toss a ball into a hoop for a living...

This cheating by the NBA refs will continue as long as we continue to support this sorry excuse for a pro league. Stop buying tickets, NBA Pass, and turn off the TV sets and maybe, just Maybe, it will catch the attention of Stern and his comrades. I said it before, Donaghy was the tip of the iceberg. They are all (REFS) told which games to call and how to call the outcomes, PERIOD.

lakersrydeordie re your post:

I couldn't agree more. Good offensive balance, poor defense throughout. Time to get ready for the next game and hope we'll play better D.

If it were called on Artest or Odom, I could have theoretically bought that, but Turkoglu was moving faster and away from Gasol. There would be no momentum to generate a push hard enough for Turkoglu to fly into the stands.
Bogus call.

BTW, Bellini or whatever is pretty good..And they have Calderon -- Toronto has a lot of talent on their bench..Marcus banks and Reggie Evans not even suited up....

of course you loser's are going to think Hedo didn't get fouled, but i was at the game, and saw MANY replays. The NBA isn't an aggressive league, the fact is that if you play 3 "bigs" on a player, even if the ref doesn't see anything, their still going to call something.

I love the Lakers, but this is a dumb arguement. Including this stupid poll... Of course the votes are going to go towards the Lakers, its the LA times. -.-"

Turk literally flops forward out of bounds. Was ticky-tac contact yes. But nowhere near for him to fall out of control. Great acting job.

If the situation was reversed and it was Kobe driving the lane he would get the call 100% of the time. The calls should be the same for everyone, it's a shame that they aren't.

And the "Best Flop of The Year" Award goes to,

*Opens Envelope*

Hedo Turkoglu!!

That was deserving of a Actors Guild Card.

Typical European flop!!!!
Ref should know better; if Pau pushed him, Hedo would of been flying out of bounds. Did u see Hedo, he just went down like a baby and he smiled afterwards.

Tough call - however they normally go against the Raptors....also, wide open look at a 3 or step in 2 pointer for Jarett Jack....let it go - you are still the champs!

No way whatsoever that Kobe doesn't get this call in the same situation. And if he did, just about every one of the "bogus call" posters would be singing a different tune.

On the road, arm extended, player falls = foul, doesn't matter if it's less than 2 seconds or 2 minutes. The officials have been consistently calling the arm extended foul all season.

Whether he fouled him or not usually isn't as important as whether it looked like he got fouled.

Which he did.

Raps fan,

Boston is hardly the best at setting illegal screens. That honor goes to the Phoenix suns, no question about it.

And yes, Turkoglu has a reputation as a flopper. If it's news to you, you haven't been watching the NBA for very long. He learned from one of the best in Vlade Divac when they played on Sactown together (and yes, Lakers fans know how to spot a flopper, after all we have DFish). Hedo's a well known flopper, and he sure seemed happy to have gotten away with a big one last night, so grats to him on winning the game by cheating.

I think Stu called it a foul yesterday and I consider Stu to be pretty much a homer. But the truth is it really doesn't matter if the call was bad or not. They shouldn't have let themselves get to a point where the refs could make a difference.

Don't know if you guys noticed in last night's game, the Lakers didn't shoot a free throw until real late in the second quarter. In fact the Lakers' broadcast team mentioned it several times. I think it was something like 19 - 0 for the Raptors at the free throw line at the time. Well, I am not one of the Lakers' coaches but if there is such a descrepancy at the free throw line for almost two quarters, wouldn't one of these coaches, or perhaps PJ whisper in one of these referees' ear about such a descrepancy...you know, complain to them a little bit and let them know that they're being a little bias here. I think it was the Lakers' coach fault for not stood up for their players. In the end it was something like 28 to 9. Don't tell me that the Lakers didn't draw that many fouls on the Raptors when they outscored the Raptors big time in the paint...and in contrast, the Raptors are the jump shooting team but yet went to the line more.

Champ, consider this: Maybe the reason the Lakers outscored the Raptors in the paint so much was that the Raps were soft in the paint - when they're letting you score, they're not fouling.

To TruFanvLA -- Gasol push.

I agree that Gasol did not push Turkoglu. I watched the video in stop-motion over and over. Gasol touched Turk lightly on the arm as Turk was turning the corner and heading in. No foul. Then he rode Turk to the left with his forearm. Moderate contact, generally no foul unless in the act of shooting. Then he gripped Turk's upper right arm with his hand. Fairly significant contact, likely a foul but rarely in the final seconds, unless in the act of shooting. Then he touched Turk's back, but didn't push. Looks bad from some angles but really not a foul.

But something else happened before the "push" that wasn't a push. Someone tripped Turk. I can't tell whose leg it was but it got under Turk's right leg -- you can see his leg pop backward and out from under him. It was either Gasol or the other defender on the inside.

That trip may be what triggered the foul call... but it doesn't matter. A very finicky ref could have called 3 to 5 fouls on the play, while even a laissez-faire ref was going to call the trip. There was just too much contact all the way in.

BTW, I'm a Raptors fan.

To Norm -- Re: Raps soft in the paint. Yes, I think that's why we saw the big FT discrepancy. Also, the timing of the fouls -- the Raps got into the bonus earlier.

My name tells you where my loyalties lie, and I'm a fan of both Hedo and Pau.

I couldn't believe how bad this call was.

As Turk was going down he managed to dish to the wing. I think it was Belinelli that he dished to...? Belinelli shot 4-5 on the game. Turk is an 80% ft shooter. The chances of turk hitting both (and winning) is therefore about 64%. Bellinelli, givin that he was hot, had a better chance of winning the game if the foul wasn't called. (plus Kobe wouldn't have had time to even take the final shot). So yea, maybe it was a bad call, but hey, even if it wasn't a foul, there was still a better than good cahnce that Toronto would have scored off the dish, in which case Hedo would be the Hero for an amazing pass. Instead, he is ridiculed for being a flopper. Now, wether or not im even accurate by assuming belinelli was receiving Turk's dish, isn't really the point. The point is that the game is 48 minutes and at the end of that 48 minutes, whoever the winner is, is the winner because they deserved it.


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