Lakers buzzing as the Hornets come to town
(Get it? Buzzing? Hornets? BZZZZZZZZZ!!!! Took a team of writers to come up with that headline...)
Looking for another indication everything's coming up Lakers these days? Take tonight's matchup with the 7-10 New Orleans Hornets at Staples. The Hornets, 1-8 on the road after losing Sunday night in Sacramento, will be short not only Chris Paul, on the sidelines since wrenching his ankle on Nov. 14 in Portland, but likely Peja Stojakovic as well. Considering how easily the Lakers handled NOH earlier this month, back when all hands were on deck and Byron Scott still had a gig, one expects most of the Vegas money on this one shift to a decidedly purple and gold direction.
Granted, it's not all gloom and doom in New Orleans. Since GM Jeff Bower took over for Scott a couple weeks ago, there have been a few positive developments for the Hornets. 2nd round pick Marcus Thornton has found his way onto the court a lot more, and is providing a spark and some scoring punch. CP3's injury has hastened the development of former Bruin Darren Collison, all of which has contributed to a 4-3 mark since Paul went down, including wins over Phoenix and Atlanta.
But those wins all came at home, and more importantly the Hornets haven't gotten any taller or deeper or Hilton Armstrong-y since the first time they came to Staples this year, when the Lakers used their superior size to crush them inside (and that was without Pau Gasol). Nor can the Hornets count on the Lakers playing down to their level. These days, LA is getting out fast against lesser teams. A couple years ago, the Hornets seemed destined for a higher designation. These days, it's the only way to describe them.
More Lakers/NBA news and notes below the jump...
-It seems Gasol has taken a shine to this winning a title thing. This year, he's more confident, and remains highly motivated to acquire more fancy jewelry. Gasol is leaving any baggage he carried from his days in Memphis in the rear view mirror, even if he doesn't carry himself like a typical NBA superstar.
-Jordan Farmar, gaining more time on the floor, is also getting more aggressive.
-Ron Artest is finding that no good deed goes unpunished.
-Hoopshype talks to Shannon Brown.
-If you missed it yesterday, here's some information on how Kobe's next deal could play out.
-Cavs coach Mike Brown is getting some heat, not because his offense is totally unimaginative and my buddy from Cleveland thinks he's the worst coach ever, but for not finding a way to get Big Z on the floor in what would have been a historically significant game.
-Allen Iverson could be back in a Sixers uniform by Monday, reports ESPN.com's Marc Stein.
-The Wolves may not be good, but they're certainly eager to get better.
-The Spurs are leaning on Tim Duncan more than ever these days. Meanwhile, the Portland's young core is trying to prevent the wobbly Blazers from falling over.
-The lesson for Amar'e Stoudamire: Keep an eye on who has the keys to your Twitter account while you're on the floor. Plus more fun stuff from Suns HQ.
BK
Zaira,
Gracias/Merci.
To Everyone, sorry. I'm going to ask mr. JimJoyce some questions. :)
JimJoyce,
you wrote: On the contrary, it further confirms what I said. On a team this talented, there is no reason for him to take so many more shots than anyone else.
It's as if he still wants it to be *his* team, with him as the undisputed star and a "supporting cast" of players around him, despite the fact that these other players are good enough to make a serious playoff run entirely without him.
Yes, even without Kobe, the Lakers might still be the best team in the league.
He's miraculously talented, but simply doesn't understand what a team is, as if he's got a narcissistic personality disorder. He demands the ball and takes shots, regardless. And yet he considers himself a "leader," with the responsibility to "make the other players better."
That's delusional. It's got to be all about him, all the time. Period.
OF COURSE the Lakers are winning all the time. Do you remember what the team was like in early 2008 before Bynum got injured? That was pre-Pau, pre-Trevor and pre-Ron. Kobe himself said that with Bynum playing as well as he was, the Lakers were now a championship contender.
Then they added/stole two of the best players in the league!! To a team that was already championship caliber!! They've now got five of the top 30 players in the league, including two of the top ten!! They should change their name to the Yankees.
The question is no longer whether the Lakers will win (I've said many times that they will win the championship with ease this year), but rather whether they will achieve the level of greatness appropriate to a team with this much talent. My take is that as long as Kobe plays the way he does, there's just no way.
I would love to see how the Lakers would perform without him for an extended stretch. I don't want to see the man injured (as if that would take him out of the lineup anyway), but if he just overslept for six or eight weeks, we'd see how talented this team is, and I'd bet we'd see much more team play than we see now.
Or maybe he'll go free agent and sign with another team next year. :)
my response:
1. re: the talent on the team. Umm ... I think you've got this wrong. Let's
flesh this out a bit and see where it goes.
So ... We've got Pau, Bynum, LO, Artest, & Fisher as the best players
outside of Kobe, yes? That means that our 2nd, 3rd & 4th best perimeter
players are LO, Artest & Fisher, yes? Which of 2 - 4 best perimeter players
recently had an 0-fer? Fisher. Which of our 2 - 4 have routinely put up
1 - 5, 2 - 7, 3 - 11? LO. [ Feel free to check the box scores for the last 4
years. ] Which of our perimeter players is new to the triangle offense &
Phil Jackson? Artest. Which of our all-star caliber talent was unable to
get the Grizzlies out of the 1st round? Pau. Which of our dominant bigs
has yet to play 1 full season as an all-star caliber player, was known for
picking up silly fouls the last two season & went to Italy instead of training
with Cap? Bynum. In this context, you're telling me that the best scorer
in the NBA/World should not be shooting as much? You're telling me that
the 2-time scoring champion should defer to LO, who was on those teams
and eating milk duds? You're saying that Mr. 81 should defer to D-Fish???
To paraphrase the words of Phil, Jim Cleamons & Coach K. Kobe, shoot the
ball! [ Feel free to research this. Over the last 4 years I've posted numerous
quotes from coaching staff, basketball pundits & players. ]
note: go back and look at the Lakers vs. Celtics in 2008. They're defensive
focus was on stopping Kobe. It worked! Our second best shooter was not
LO, nor was it D-Fish. It was Sasha, aka the busted machine. I think he got a
nice contract out of it though ...
re: *his* team. You seem uninformed about this. Allow me to clarify. IT IS
HIS TEAM!!! It is his will driving this train. His playing hurt, has caused
other players to play hurt. He forced the issue against Orlando and caused
them to commit. Then he passed. You'll recall that he had one of the best
finals EVER! He is the mega-star that Shane Battier reads a book on, every
time they play. [ reference earlier link to moneyball. ] His threat to leave
the team caused the Lakers to scramble and land Pau Gasol. Kobe is the
player Artest wanted to come play with. It was his defense on Melo that came
at the pivotal time and helped us win. He is the one the coaches fear.
They respect Pau & Artest. They love D-Fish. They believe that Bynum can
become good/great. Kobe is the one that steals their sleep and causes
nightmares. Feel free to reference quotes by Karl or Van Gundy or Popovich.
re: a serious play off run. I thought this was clear to you. This is *NOT* about
a serious playoff run. This is about winning the championship! NOTHING LESS!
This is about taking every team, by the throat, and choking the snot out of
them. This is about breaking their spirit and causing them to concede before
tip-off. It is not about being GOOD! IT IS ABOUT WINNING EVERYTHING!
Greatness is not politically correct. If you want to see politically correct
basketball, I suggest you go watch a pony league game. We are trying to
beat the best teams in the world and we can't do that by not using our best
weapon. We saw what LO, Artest, Pau & D-Fish can do without Kobe. They
failed. With Kobe, they can and have won.
re: 2008. Interesting. Do some research and tell me who the Lakers
beat with Bynum. This has been one of my issues with the Bynum promotion.
We play a team like GS, Bynum has great numbers, and we say Bynum will
be a god. I say, when Bynum has great numbers against Howard or Duncan
come talk to me. Greatness is not winning against a few teams who suck.
Greatness is treating the best like " a red-headed step child". We praise MJ
because he beat Bird, Magic & Barkley. We don't praise MJ because he
beat the Grizzlies.
You've used a subjective term and I'm going to call you on it. You said:
will achieve the level of greatness appropriate to a team with this much talent
Please spell out what your level of greatness looks like. As you reach down
deep for this, some things to help you:
Bryant finished with 30 points, eight rebounds, and seven assists Sunday against New Jersey.
In the month of November, Bryant averaged 29.9 points, 5.2 rebounds, and 4.2 assists. The Lakers went 12-2 during that span and scored better than 100 points in every game. [ note: when did Pau come back into the lineup? ]
He is averaging 4+ assists per game. D-Wade, B-Roy & J-Johnson are
ahead of him. Which of those players has a point guard who has made no
points during an entire game?
re: Team play. You seem to be unclear on this concept as well. MJ is widely
regarded as the best SG to ever play the game. Was he a team player? If
you compare the stats of MJ & Kobe, you'll find that they're reasonably
close. [ This is well documented. ] b/n 1999 & 2004, Kobe averaged
b/n 4.0 & 6.0 assists per game. That is with the most dominant C in the
league, at the time. So the stats indicate that Kobe is within his historical
average while playing with two people, who on any given night, can't buy
a bucket even though they're multi-millionaires. That means that before
this *crap* about Kobe being a ballhog started, Kobe's passing numbers
looked exactly like they look now.
Finally, it is clear to me that you would to see Kobe shoot less and everyone
else shoot more. [ KB Blitz, back me up on this one. ] EVERY SINGLE
BLEEPING TIME that Kobe has slacked off on his shooting, the Lakers have
lost and he has been publicly castigated for this. I seem to recall the pistons
and the T-wolves as great examples, but I'm not sure. Do you read about
any Lakers coach saying, we think Kobe is shooting the ball too much?
We are ~ 20% done with the season. The Lakers are tied for the best record,
in the L column, in the NBA. We have 4 players on the all-star ballot.
We are CRUSHING the competition with our starting 5, and you want to
castigate the best player in the world for ... playing like he's the best player
in the world?
I publicly dare you to go back and post the shooting numbers for LO coming
off the bench, D-Fisher [ whom I love], & Artest. I will not ask you to post
the numbers for Sasha or Ammo or any other bench player because it's just
sad.
While you're coming up with a response, if you intend to, here is some
reading material: http://tinyurl.com/yd94zmp
snippets:
"In those years that have ensued, he's learned how to become a leader in a way in which people want to follow him.
So many of his teammates are successful creations of this new, older Kobe Bryant. Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Trevor Ariza -- none of them was viewed as anything like a championship contender until each began to play with Bryant.
The young star who could not be trusted has turned into this Kobe Bryant upon whom the Lakers -- and Jackson especially -- depend to make the right decisions.
Instead, he has grown up to be the team captain who blocked a game-best four shots and passed for a team-high five assists in addition to his typical 30 points and six rebounds.
he has turned into the kind of versatile star who was contributing but one basket while distributing three assists among Ariza (who scored seven during the run among his 15 points overall) and Derek Fisher, who at 34 is the only Laker older than Bryant.
Bryant said. "I think it's a matter of understanding the moment. It's also understanding your team and the lead that they have to follow.
*** end snippets.
Posted by: hobbitmage | December 01, 2009 at 10:17 AM
To Everyone, sorry. I'm going to ask mr. JimJoyce some questions. Posted by: hobbitmage | December 01, 2009 at 10:17 AM
OOOOOOH WEEEEEEEEE!!! I WANT TO BE LIKE HOBBITMAGE WHEN I GROW UP!
OUT FREAKIN STANDING!!!!!
Posted by: mamba24 | December 01, 2009 at 10:30 AM
hobbitimage,
that was an epic response!
Posted by: bangdangvn | December 01, 2009 at 10:36 AM
Those Talkin' Tiger / Kobe
There's more on the line with this one. The NBA has other stars. Golf doesn't. Tiger has ladies and anything else he might want lined up at every venue. Does he take advantage of that? In this case, I'd guess yes.
Don't know what your experience might be with TMZ or the Enquirer but mine has been they get it right. Some corporate PR works on a "privilege" basis, spinning things to their end. They reel in media with exclusives in their favor and block those that don't play. The Enquirer doesn't fly that way. Stories they've covered concerning people I know have been accurate, sometimes not even as bad as it was.
No one wants to bring Tiger down, they want hits in a world that's seen it all. They want to keep the slime machine flowin'. Is that a bad thing? You had to ask?
The other thing, would be the movie star / athlete whatever that "deserves" to be left alone. It's not like today's famous types didn't know the job description when they applied. They're pop stars, it's in the manual. It works for ya and agin ya and the not famous option is always available.
Will this effect his endorsements? Probably but if you're keepin' score, money isn't his concern. Will fans bail? The question in some board rooms is, what if he bails for a while?
He ups ratings 50% when he's in the field. There are Tiger golf events and events no one watches. Merchandizing? He's raised the bar so high no one will ever get over it. Corps don't cater to Kobe like they cater to this guy. He doesn't live in our world. He's got one of his own.
This will tip Tiger's scale but he'll win redemption. Liz Taylor said "there's not deodorant like success." Like Kobe, when the red shirt comes down the back nine at Augusta with a 2 shot lead, everyone will be watchin'.
Posted by: VMan | December 01, 2009 at 10:42 AM
- Next time you watch a Laker game, try taking your eyes away from the ball and just watch Ron Ron do his thing. You will see all the little things he does to frustrate and tire out his opponent. He is absolutely relentless. He will bruise you up and wear you down. He's good now, but will have an even bigger impact in a 7 game series.
- Everyone expects Bynum to get better and better, which seems inevitable, but let's not overlook the fact that Pau has also improved his game every year as a Laker, and should continue to improve for years to come. It's fun to get excited over the emergence of the Beast, but we've had a Spanish beast on the roster for almost two years now, and his confidence is only rising.
- I'm getting a little tired of all these blowouts. We need Luke back ASAP, so we can watch some close games for once.
Posted by: LAKER TRUTH | December 01, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Hobbitmage,
Nice post.
I love how Kobe has smacked all of his critics upside their heads with his play on the court, and continues to do so. Most of the criticism about Kobe's game through the years has proven to be false, but there are still haters like Jim Joyce who continue to grasp at straws to find something....anything, about Kobe's game to hate on. After Kobe's return to glory last season, a big chunk of these haters have retreated back into the shadows like dirty little cockroaches, just waiting for the opportune time to hate again.
I suspect Joyce was in the camp that thought Kobe was a ballhog for not passing the ball to Kwame, Cook and Smush - that he couldn't win a ring without Shaq - that he is not a leader - that players do not want to play with him - that he didn't make his teammates better - that he was uncoachable - that choosing Shaq over Kobe was a mistake - etc etc. The finals MVP has silenced his critics for the most part, but a few cockroaches still remain, and they do not die easily.
Posted by: LAKER TRUTH | December 01, 2009 at 11:07 AM
How much is kobe worth for a new contract? How old is he? How many new young rising stars that can score tons of points in his position, F/G?
I say supply and demand should be the way the Lakers should value him.
Franchise players in their downhill who stayed with their team until they retire, initiates their own salary cut, so the team can still be competitive to surround him with young talents.
Look at Shaq, who was opposed to it and put himself above the team, now travels and changes team every year for the last three years. Then look at Tim Duncan, Bill Russel, David Robinson, Larry Bird. They all put the team above them, and their organization returned the respect and kept them until they retire.
So Kobe, do not be another Shaq. You have a beautiful home here in LA.
Lakers will pay you what is fair and what is right for the team to compete and continue winning championships. It is yours to decide what is enough (money) and what are your goals (rings, respect and legendaries of the City)?
Stay and you shall be rewarded that money can not buy.
Sign your extension now Kobe or be a free agent and be ready to take the consequences of Buss not hesitating to look at Lebron James, Dwayne Wade or Kevin Durant.
THe only place I would like to see Kobe Bryant play is in New York City with Mike D'Antoni where he will be allowed to score 100 pts a game..
Posted by: Staples 24 | December 01, 2009 at 11:12 AM
Tiger's in big trouble now, what with another woman coming forward with not only affair info, but phone calls, tweets and other incriminating stuff. Now, I have no problem with TMZ going after Tiger. My problem occurs when Florida law enforcement starts acting like celebrity paparazzi and going after people for ridiculous reasons. TMZ and the National Inquirer have never sworn to protect and serve the citizens of their states. These police organizations have.
And I want to throw my support to Sasha. Outsiders can say what they want, insiders need to keep their moths shut. LO, this includes you. Don't be dissin' Sasha. I love LO, but he's no one to criticize Sasha's game. I can't be the only one who has noticed 10-12 extra pounds on Lamar right around the gut area. He's huffing and puffing in the first 20 minutes of the game like a baby elephant stuck in a mud hole. I'm just saying. One too many late night cocktails has taken up residence in Lamar's love handles. So, LO, chill out with the being rude to Sasha. And this goes for Laker Tom bashers, too. The man writes good sentences! (as if this makes up for everything else).
Love,
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | December 01, 2009 at 11:20 AM
Ziara,
I have a question for you. What's your take on the Amanda Knox trial? Do Italians think she's guilty? Will the courts find her guilty or innocent? Why are they going after life in prison with her, when the other guy, the actual killer, got 25 years (I think)?
Just wondering.
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | December 01, 2009 at 11:30 AM
More signs that Shaq is not working in Cleveland:
LeBron criticizes Cavs coach
"Dear Mike Brown, you should not be surprised that there is fallout from Zydrunas Ilgauskas receiving the first DNP-CD (Did Not Play, Coach's Decision) of his career. or should it have been a shock when James stepped up to defend his teammate. Other than his buddies from St. Vincent-St. Mary, no teammate has meant more to James than Ilgauskas. Or that your big man would be hurt, especially since this was not a matter of him being disciplined. It was just your call. Sources told The Plain Dealer Ilgauskas was so upset about not playing in the first half that he asked to sit out the second half. Probably not a good move by him, but Mike, you started this."
I think big Z is a better fit for that team at this point and the Cavs will 100% trade Shaq's expiring deal for a superstar to help Lebron. But who?
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | December 01, 2009 at 12:19 PM
@hobbitimage... oh... Whoooahh! What a glorious post that one is?
A true pleasure to read (really amazing nickname, too).
About tonight game... will be awaken again and ready to see our Knights transforming themselves in human Buzz-Up Fly Killer Insecticide.
No mercy.
No jokes.
Have all a great day. ;)
Posted by: ZairaAmaterasu | December 01, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Vman....Really nice post man...
Wes....Sometimes these little stains that stars pick up along the way can work for the star 10 fold...
The guy has worn a teflon suit since he came in to media spotlight and i know from speaking to mates that puts them off a little...BUT....although this could affect his brand,it also shows he's just like the guy next door or up the road from us....HUMAN......This type of incident could also attract a whole new legion of fans...The ones who like a little bad boy in who they support........
I have some Valentino Rossie stories that would shock you to bits and change the way you looked and thought about the guy forever....REALLY BAD MUD......Im friends with someone who meets often with his mechanic Jeremy Burgess....Man if only knew.....I dont know how this guy has stayed clean from the media..Maybe its his joking ways that allows him to slip through the net...He never portrayed himself with that robot image you sometimes get from tiger...thats the difference..The media has been waiting for a slip and now it has its mud.....I know its cruel but so is sharks eating baby seals...
Posted by: Thirty2 | December 01, 2009 at 12:36 PM
I think the Kobe haters have been put into check.
People "hate" that term (funny how they're full of hate, huh) but yet, that's precisely what it is. If Kobe goes 0-50 from the field, then maybe you can complain, but until then, shut it.
There is no greater winner in the NBA. There is no greater winner in basketball today.
Mr Bean stands alone on top of the mountain.
He makes his teammates famous. He makes them millions.
If anyone has a problem with this, come talk to me. You won't be able to speak afterwards.
Now let's apply the pressure to the Hornets. And then let's all file complaints with HUD for trying to throw off the locker room... good for nothing govt. What, they want Ron Artest on food stamps?
Classic.
Posted by: Tim-4-Show | December 01, 2009 at 12:42 PM
{Secret Agent Jon K. Just Getting Up From Nocturnal Schedule Mildly Caffeinated Post-Grad School Application Completion First Time-Wasting Activity Of The Day}
Convert The Lakers Into Super-Heroes Using A Messy Mash-Up Of Marvel & DC Universes: I Encourage You To Participate
Kobe Bryant = Silver Surfer {Possess the Power Cosmic. Herald of Destruction}
Pau Gasol = Plastic Man {Incredible length}
Ron Artest = Deadpool (maybe Wolverine) {Sublime warrior. Recovers quickly. Kind of crazy. Comic awareness.}
Andrew Bynum = Colossus {Incredible strength. Size.}
Derek Fisher = The Beast (sorry Laker Tom) {Intelligence. Makes teammates better}
Lamar Odom = Adam Warlock {Incredibly well-rounded powers. Troubled past.}
Shannon Brown = Spider-Man {Athleticism. Attitude}
Jordan Farmar = Daredevil {Knows no fear.}
Sasha Vujacic = Nightcrawler {Foreign. Quick. Tends to disappear.}
Luke Walton = Cyclops {Not athletic, but with incredible vision}
Josh Powell = Luke Cage {Tough. Strong.}
DJ Mbenga = Iron Fist {Martial artist. Power punch.}
Adam Morrison = Nick Fury {Cunning. Kind of looks like Nick Fury.}
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 12:44 PM
You need not trouble yourself with Kobe's salary.
By the time it comes up, the economy will have fallen off a cliff. Kobe will be gracious to extend what he already makes. If not, then it will be a very modest increase at best.
Buss would be better served to offer a Magic Johnson type contract - extremely long term with ownership possibilities. That ought to keep Kobe in the family.
Posted by: Tim-4-Show | December 01, 2009 at 12:47 PM
BK,
"my buddy from Cleveland thinks he's the worst coach ever"
Mike Brown is not the worst coach ever, but he should NEVER have won Coach of the Year. NEVER!
The guy is a decent defensive coach, but his offensive system could be best described as "Okay, guys! Go get 'em! {Clap. Clap.}"
Under a coach like Larry Brown the Cavs would be a much better team. At the same time, I'm kind of curious how LeBron James would deal with a more offensively disciplined coach who could be interpretted as "stiffling" The LeBron's "creativity".
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 12:50 PM
Pretty interesting how the Hornets seem to play better without Chris Paul and the Cavs seem to play better without Shaquille O'Neal.
Never underestimate the value of team chemistry.
In my not so humble opinion, the most important component of team sports is team chemistry. You can't have synergy without team chemistry and synergy is the only way to make a team better than the individual components of its parts.
Defense wins playoff games. Synergy wins Championships.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 12:54 PM
I wonder if Elton Brand still feels good about throwing the Clippers under the bus.
Go Clippers!!!
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 12:55 PM
Wes,
I think a lot of fans/coaches forget that players are humans first, athletes second, and professionals third.
We expect them to be professionals first and that simply is unrealistic.
So, Z's getting bumped for Shaq, even though Z has a huge history with the Cavs and the Cavs win with Z in. How's Z and his friends (LeBron) NATURALLY going to act? With resentment.
People handle resentment differently. Some lash out; some become bitter and distrustful.
LeBron will last out. That's his Bio-Chrono emotional type. However, when people lash out, it creates additional resentment... and that undermines team chemistry.
Shaq's emotional type is just like LeBron's emotional type. If people lash out at him, he lashes out back... which creates a cycle of resentment.
So, we'll see, but I suspect the Curse of The Big Mistake continues...
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 01:21 PM
To ol' Jimmy Joyce,
A good coach like Phil understands that different players have different on-court personalities and game-playing characteristics, and that they must be understood in order to determine the roles players will play within the team game. Kobe plays the kind of game he has to play. It's what he does best, and consequently he is used in much the same way that Shaq was used, which is to put pressure on opposing defenses and force them to adjust. The triangle offense requires a player who can do that. The defensive adjustments that ensue leave players out of position and less focused on their assignments. Kobe plays his role within the team game, and he has learned to do it nearly perfectly. When additional defenders close on him, he usually swings the ball. Sometimes he aggressively tries to go through scrambling double teams. Doing so successfully now and then is actually a good thing. It doesn't allow the opposing team to get too comfortable with the idea of just sending double teams his way and making others score. It also keeps defenders from getting any kind of confidence with a particular strategy. Shaq previously played that same role for Phil. He put pressure on the defense in the low-post and forced the defense to adjust. Then he swung it out or sometimes tried to go through double and triple teams. Ultimately, Kobe is what makes the triangle offense on our current team so successful, much the same way Shaq did on our older teams.
Posted by: Raj | December 01, 2009 at 01:22 PM
Tim-4-Show,
"Buss would be better served to offer a Magic Johnson type contract - extremely long term with ownership possibilities. That ought to keep Kobe in the family."
Agreed.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 01:23 PM
Tim-4-Show,
I didn't know you were into MotoGP. I would love to hear some of that dirt. Tell me, is his best mate Uccio his best mate (eye wink)
aww man, hopefully I'm not gonna be regretting my Rossi sun n moon tattoos.
Posted by: Magia32 | December 01, 2009 at 01:37 PM
My bad, my post was meant for Thirty2.
Posted by: Magia32 | December 01, 2009 at 01:41 PM
So if you criticize Kobe you're a Kobe hater? How does that work exactly? It seems kind of silly.
Posted by: Mark | December 01, 2009 at 01:48 PM
Hobbit here's some back up
1) When Kobe said that "We are a championship team" with Bynum he meant with Bynum as the side kick. Remove Kobe from that 08-09 team but have a healthy Bynum would the Lakers have even made the playoffs? If Bynum still isn't a true go to guy now he was much less back in 07-08.
2) When Kobe takes bad shoots (as in take contested mid range and deep range jumpers) then you could have a point (as was in 2004 against Detroit and was half true in 2008). Detroit is understandable considering how Shaq dominated against Ben Wallace and Elden Campbell. 2008 Pau was great only for 2 games being average on the others....LO same story but was worst on the others than Pau...Trevor wasn't himself...Sasha shot the Lakers out of Game 4 and choked big time in both Game 4 and 5...Jordan choked in Game 4 and was horrid in every game save for Game 5...and Ronny looked lost against the Celtics. Kobe was the ONLY option and he unbelievably still led his Lakers against almost all the best competition with a squad that overachieved. He won the Finals MVP the year after....Kobe may not be always efficient but he's the best damn player in the league nevermind his own team.
3) Team play hmmmm..... yet Jim Joyce goes and bashes Phil Jackson as a terrible coach whose offensive system is predicated on ball movement/passing. So what does he want without Kobe helping ball handling and removing Phil Jackson? Put in Byron Scott and expect Pau and Bynum to win it all? No they would be a good team no doubt but not the championship caliber team.
4) As Floyd Mayweather Jr. would say about jimjoyce: "Jim Joyce is but a blogger he don't know nuttin about basketball"
And one thing Hobbit....MJ never really owned Magic or Bird. Bird repeatedly owned Pippen and Jordan and even hit a Game Winner in both their faces. Sure Michael beat out Earvin in 1991 but this was a shadow of Showtime with no Pat Riley (Dumbleavy choked away the home court advantage after Game 1), no Cooper (no way Byron Scott would have defended MJ as good as Cooper would have), no Kareem (Vlade Divac was solid but he was no hall of famer), and James Worthy had an ankle injury in the Portland series that eliminated his effectiveness which he would re injure in Game 4 and eliminated him in Game 5 (Magic 20 assists in that Game!)
Otherwise Jimmy Joyce: you don't know nuttin about bball.
Posted by: KB Blitz | December 01, 2009 at 02:12 PM
@ Tim 4 Sho and Jon K.
Imagine Kobe as the coach. All the lazies would be "Brian Cooked" traded or "Smushed" outta here!
Posted by: Charles | December 01, 2009 at 02:17 PM
Regarding the Ron Artest welfare fraud story with his sister...
I grew up upper middle class in the Conejo Valley, California, but I've been living among people of lower economic class in Akron, Ohio for some time now.
I also grew up pretty liberal, but I can tell you, in my personal experience, EVERY person I've met out here on welfare (and that is NO exaggeration) is engaging in some form of welfare fraud. ALL of them (at least as it has been communicated to me) are either hiding income, inflating statistics or both.
It's staggering.
I mean, literally, everyone out of hundreds of people I've met on welfare. That's how complete it is, in my experience.
Ron's sister is unlucky to be caught and it probably is reflection of her being Thriller's sister, but among welfare culture, in my experience there is OVERWHELMING fraud. I can only imagine how bad it was before welfare reform happened.
It's just amazing how much the system has been corrupted.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 02:23 PM
Magia32....your heading down the right path with that eye wink...
Posted by: Thirty2 | December 01, 2009 at 02:27 PM
Charles,
"Imagine Kobe as the coach."
In my not so humble opinion, it's a terrible idea.
Imagine Magic Johnson as coach.
Imagine Michael Jordan as GM.
The only Hall of Fame player who I thought made an excellent coach was Larry Bird... and he could only handle it for so long because his competitiveness made him want to play himself to correct errors... but he couldn't.
For some reason, intelligent role players like Phil Jackson... or Derek Fisher... seem to make the best coaches and GMs (Jerry West being an exception). Super-stars don't really seem to coach as well, unless they do as assistant coaches.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 02:54 PM
So if you criticize Kobe you're a Kobe hater? How does that work exactly? It seems kind of silly.
Posted by: Mark | December 01, 2009 at 01:48 PM
This is how that works exactly. JimJoyce didn't only criticize Kobe he said he hates to say it but he wishes he would be injured and out for 6 to 8 weeks so that the team could play team ball. You agreed with him, but with one exception, you thought the Lakers would be a playoff not championship team. You didn't qualify your statement to say you didn't agree with him about Kobe being off the team for 6-8 weeks with an injury, instead you went on to say how it's your opinion that Kobe is holding the growth of the team back. It's crap but it's your opinion. A hater in the slang sense of the word as it is used by most bloggers is "One who disapproves of somethingor someone" in this case your disapproval of Kobe's current role on the Lakers makes you a hater.
What's really kind of silly is that some continue to ignore that one of the main reasons the Lakers are Champions is because of the relentless drive to win that Kobe has. Kobe Bryant alone makes other teams change their game plans. No other player on the Lakers roster garners that kind of respect from other teams. Not Gasol, Bynum, Fisher, Odom, Artest, etc... Regardless of how often coaches have said they design their defenses to stop Kobe, regardless of how many of his teammates say they're on the best team they've ever been on, playing with the best player they've ever played with. Regardless of how many mediocre players have come and gone and the best year(s) of their careers happened when they were playing with Kobe, there will always be haters who think they know better than everybody else.
Posted by: Fan of the Mamba | December 01, 2009 at 02:58 PM
@ Jon K.
He would put on a uniform and beat his own players.
Posted by: Charles | December 01, 2009 at 03:00 PM
Charles,
"He would put on a uniform and beat his own players."
A distinct possibility.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 01, 2009 at 03:12 PM
i second what hobbit said. i couldnt have said it better. LAKERS back2back!!!
Posted by: Chris | December 01, 2009 at 03:17 PM
@ Fan of the Mamba, so then Jerry West is a hater because he said that LBJ had surpassed Kobe as the best player in the NBA?
BTW, Joyce didn't say he wanted Kobe injured, he specifically said he didn't want Kobe injured: "I don't want to see the man injured (as if that would take him out of the lineup anyway), but if he just overslept for six or eight weeks". . . (At least be factually accurate please)
I personally wouln't wish an injury on any player, even a Celtic.
IMO Kobe is probably the most skilled offensive player that the game has seen, but that doesn't mean I think he's perfect.
Now I haven't read all of Joyce's posts, so maybe he has posted some hateful stuff, I can't speak to that. What I did get of the post I read was that the Lakers could possibly be even better than they are if Kobe altered his game. Now you can disagree with this point, I actually think it's a valid argument, but I don't see this as slamming Kobe. Not being a sychophant, isn't the same as being a hater.
Posted by: Mark | December 01, 2009 at 03:21 PM
Jon K,
Lenny Wilkens was an exception to that.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | December 01, 2009 at 03:22 PM
Again Mark,
Jerry West said he thinks Lebron has surpassed Kobe as a player is fine it's not a criticism of Kobe nor has he said the Lakers would be a better team if Kobe changed his game. His statement in no way is disapproving of Kobe. So no I don't consider Jerry West statements the statements of a hater.
Sorry for not being factually accurate. The bottom line is he wants him off the team for 6-8 weeks. That's not a criticism.
Again the definition be used for Hater is "One who disapproves of something or someone."
Posted by: Fan of the Mamba | December 01, 2009 at 03:44 PM
@ exhelodrvr
"Lenny Wilkens was an exception to that."
Posted by: exhelodrvr | December 01, 2009 at 03:22 PM
Nice catch
Posted by: Charles | December 01, 2009 at 03:45 PM
Kobe should always pass instead of taking a shot and missing. That would be the best way for him to improve his game.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | December 01, 2009 at 03:53 PM
@Fan of the Mamba, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, my friend.
For the record:
I'm a huge Laker fan, and a Kobe fan, but I'd rather see him pass more and get the Bigs more touches. I agree the Lakers can't win a title w/o Kobe. In the Kobe/Shaq era, Kobe was the more important of the two.
If anyone wants to put me down as a hater, that's their choice.
Peace.
Posted by: Mark | December 01, 2009 at 04:01 PM
Mark, you said, "I'm a huge Laker fan, and a Kobe fan, but I'd rather see him pass more and get the Bigs more touches."
IMHO, this statement provides me with a totally different outlook on your comments. This statement is not hating, as far as I'm concerned (not that my opinion matters) it's a legitimate opinion of how you'd like to see Kobe play. There's no hating in that. I too would love to see him average 20+ points on 12-15 shots and 15 assists (smile). But I also understand that he's both a very confident scorer and a volume shooter. Most of the time both of these characteristic works to the Lakers' advantage. I just don't want him off the team for 6-8 weeks in order to prove that his absence would improve team play. I don't think that helps our team at all.
Good discussion, thanks for the responses.
Posted by: Fan of the Mamba | December 01, 2009 at 05:02 PM
You fellas make me laugh out loud with some of your comments. Keep up the good work! (Some of you may want to consider a remedial reading class or two.)
Sure, the Lakers have played great the last two games: Against, the Nets and Warriors, a combined 6-26 on the season. Congratulations! If that makes you feel good, good luck!
Posted by: jimjoyce | December 01, 2009 at 06:16 PM
In fact, let me go all in and put this in a simple formula:
Rather than making his teammates better, Kobe in subtle ways actually makes them worse, by forcing them to be role players subservient to his stardom, and failing to make the most of their extraordinary talent.
(Same goes for Coach Phil. All he cares about is the easiest path to winning that involves no confrontation. He knows this team can win with Kobe playing the way he does, and that the other players will defer to Kobe, so that's good enough for him. It's the same lack of leadership that led to the disastrous team dynamics of his first run with the Lakers earlier this decade, but that team, too, was so talented that it just didn't matter, at least for a while.)
With all the weapons this team has, imagine what they would look like with someone like Magic Johnson orchestrating the show.
Magic was never threatened by the greatness of his teammates, he thrived on it, because their own greatness gave him the opportunity to shine even brighter himself. Kobe? Well, it's a very different story.
Posted by: jimjoyce | December 01, 2009 at 06:54 PM
JimJoyce,
You've got a stick up your butt and no one can pull it out but you. Of course you have a right to your opinion and to insult others as you see fit. Your opinion is just your opinion, it doesn't make you right and everybody else wrong. Most of us on the blog disagree with you. You've decided for yourself that Kobe is threatened by the greatness of his teammates unlike Magic Johnson. That's your opinion. Are you correct. I don't think so, but you have a right to your opinion, most us just disagree with you.
Here's a little report of game action not opinion from Kevin Ding from the Hornets/Lakers game, "Bryant braced himself at halftime for much more aggressive double teams. When New Orleans brought those doubles, Bryant stopped scoring – but was still dictating everything for his team.
Bryant flat-out told and showed Lamar Odom during a Hornets foul shot how Bryant was going to catch it at the other end, draw help and whip a left-to-right pass to Odom when he cut from the top of the key. Odom was shooting his own free throws after it played out just as designed.
The next Lakers possession saw Bryant post up, draw two defenders and easily kick the ball out for Shannon Brown to nail a 3-pointer when David West's defensive rotation was too slow to reach Brown. A minute later, Brown hit another 3-pointer when Chris Paul sank off Brown in an attempt to cheat and deny Bryant's entry-passing lane in the post."
Kobe said something that rings truer than anything you can ever say. He said, the notion that you make other players better by simply passing them ball is ludcrious. ""It's funny to me when people talk about the notion of making other players better, and they talk about just passing them the ball. It's just the most ignorant comment I've ever heard in my life. No, there are other things that have to come into play besides getting assists.
"It's helping them get the championship mentality and attitude and work ethic and drive and persistence. All that goes into it. It's not just passing somebody the ball, and wow, he hit a shot; I made him better."
Magic didn't make James Worthy, Kareem Jabbar or Michael Cooper better. They were great players in their own right and Kareem was already a champion.
You see only what you want to see to prove what you consider your valid point of view, but what you don't see is the Lakers are as great of a team as they are because of all that Kobe brings to the table not inspite of them.
You want to see what you consider team ball played by losing teams, there are plenty of them to watch in the NBA. Here's a little reality for you. If you're gonna continue to watch the Lakers, Kobe is going to be front and center, like it or not.
Posted by: Fan of the Mamba | December 01, 2009 at 07:54 PM
One last thing jim,
Success can be achieved in a variety of ways. This is not Magic's Lakers team and the team didn't have to mimic the Showtime Lakers to win. The current squad is definitely on their way to being just as successful using a totally different formula.
The Lakers are Champions and they accomplished it in a total different way than any of the Showtime Lakers teams of the '80's.
Go Lakers!
Posted by: Fan of the Mamba | December 01, 2009 at 08:06 PM
@wes About the girl Amanda, sure I do believe she is capable and responsible of what she has been accused of (and so do the majority of Italian people).
A cute face won't help erase the reality about her drugged, raw behaviour those days (a thing very common by foreign students over here.. and that town is known for being really into drugs among students).
It's a clear case of game taken too further by too young people to have concept of responsibility.
But out from all the trial, she seems a very confused girl to me. Sure drugs had a huge part in her confusion. She needs terapy. And she's gonna get it while stay where she belongs to, namely jail.
About Valentino Rossi: teh guy has had his slice of troubles, but sporty speaking, he's a legend, and fairly a decent, often brilliant guy when you meet him in person. I did a few times. He sparkles grace.
Which make you overcome his minus (and btw, are we all perfect? don't think so. I am not).
Posted by: ZairaAmaterasu | December 01, 2009 at 08:52 PM
sorry, this is old, but it seemed proper to repost it;
“…You're right, jimjoyce, I find Kobe's play sickening. The would be soooo much better if he would just be less selfish. Maybe this year they could win two titles, instead of only one like last year. Talk about underachieving!
Posted by: Jman449 | November 29, 2009 at 06:03 AM”
[says nothing, points to scoreboard]
Posted by: phred | December 01, 2009 at 10:10 PM
*could and have (also); * poor subject for me "
Posted by: phred | December 02, 2009 at 01:04 AM
dang. I was going somewhere with that train of thought. somebody disagree with me so I can remember what it was.
Ok, this is all a minor annoyance. The Big Thing! The thing that anybody will remember ten years from now is that we have the best starters in the league. Unless my previous post, i think personality, things you've done or not done, the minor things a person says don't matter a bit. What you put on the basketball floor and how good you are at it is the BIG DEAL.
Posted by: phred | December 02, 2009 at 01:20 AM