Jordan Farmar, on his role, acceptance, and playing outside his wheelhouse
But that laundry list aside, Farmar has also succeeded through a willingness to honor the Laker game plan, a system that isn't really tailored to what he considers his strengths. Phil Jackson noted how Jordan is being asked to slow the tempo this season, as opposed to the previous pair when speed was a Bench Mob calling card. At the same time, however, Jackson wants him to remain aggressive, but in a way that suits the triangle. PJ called this wave of prosperity a "second wind" for Jordan, despite the season being just nineteen games in the books. Good for Farmar, but that rush has come at a price.
"It kind of takes away some opportunities," said Farmar of the adjustment. "But you still have to be aggressive... Sometimes, I get unselfish and I'll make the extra pass when I have a good shot myself. I can't pass up shots. I'm a good shooter... It kind of takes me out of a point guard mindset a little bit... (But) it's worked itself out. We're winning games. And I'm playing, so it's okay."
It's interesting to hear Farmar's perspective of a system requiring him to take more shots, considering how often he's viewed by fans (and at times, yours truly) as a decidedly "score-first" player. I don't think if it's necessarily Jordan being asked to take shots that's the issue, but rather the shots themselves. As he notes, spotting up for a corner trey doesn't mesh with his natural first instinct, driving strong along the baseline to the hoop. As he notes later, his natural inclinations as a player are also usually forged with the ball in his hands: pushing the break and penetrating the lane as early options and generally being allowed to make more decisions throughout a possession, as opposed to the early dumps inside that he mentions as part of his duties. Basically, a more traditional point guard, as opposed to a "triple post" point guard.
I asked Farmar about what often appeared last season to be a resistance to the system. From Jordan's perspective, it wasn't so much "resistance" as frustration over being asked to operate outside his wheelhouse (which is actually resistance justified through semantics, depending on how you view the issue). "I just don't really get a chance to do what I do best," explained Farmar in a matter of fact tone. "Trying to go out there and do have it conflict with what they want, it was frustrating at times. Trying to play the way they want me to play and not being successful. Not being successful in the limited time I was getting. It was kind of like, how do we work this out?"
As it turns out, the "solution" was eventually reached through a combination of compromise, understanding where comfort zone opportunities may still exist, and, quite simply, unlearning a lifetime of roundball education.
After hearing Farmar describe his struggle to play in a foreign manner, I couldn't help but notice how differently Shannon Brown later explained his preferences as a player, which are basically "none." He doesn't care if he's playing with the ball or without it. He doesn't care what's being asked of him. He just wants to be on the floor. It should be noted that Shannon was NOT speaking in reference to Jordan's comments, and that Shannon joined the Lakers after bouncing around and nearly falling out of the league, which naturally creates a different perspective on PT. But that viewpoint also explains in large part why the self-described "throw-in" from last season's Vlad Rad-Ammo trade was able to become a surprise addition to the rotation and temporarily bump Farmar: the willingness to do whatever is asked and put personal agendas on the back burner. I didn't include this clip as a criticism of Farmar, who I think has come a long way in this regard. It's just indicative of the mentality all players ultimately have to adopt to some degree in order to help a team.
As I said, Farmar is playing well right now, and some of that credit goes to an improved mindset. Last season featured for the first time what felt like a step backwards in Jordan's career, a third campaign failing to build on the opening pair's diet of steady improvement. Even more alarming, that hiccup didn't feel so much like a flat line as regression, which hit its lowest point when Brown snatched his gig. But to his credit, Farmar got the message, stepped up when opportunity knocked (a starting gig filling in for a suspended Derek Fisher in the Houston series) and ever since, he's largely been a "company man." (In many ways, I think getting benched was the best thing that could have happened for him.) Save maybe Andrew Bynum, Jordan's preseason was as strong as anybody's, and some early struggles were likely caused in some part by Phil doing a lot of mix n' match with floor combos, experimentation that's necessary for a long-term project (defending a title) but makes the short term low on continuity.
It's fairly obvious that Jordan isn't enamored with his role, and it's often been speculated that he'd be a better fit elsewhere. I think there's some truth to that, and I doubt Farmar would disagree (privately, if nothing else). BK and I have stated on several occasions that Farmar's impending free agency could very likely result in him leaving the Lakers, and had pegged him as a decent candidate for summer 2009 relocation (although not so much anymore). I don't think the organization is sold on him as their point guard of the future and I'm not positive Farmar is, either. But as long as Farmar remains mature enough to see the bigger picture, that he's more likely to land in a "better situation" (if that's what he wants) by being an important cog in a successful machine than standing out like a sore thumb "doing what he does best," I don't view any dissatisfaction with his role as a problem. I actually give Farmar a lot of credit. He's a cocky guy by nature, and nothing if not headstrong. Many players never change (see Vujacic, Sasha). Whatever unhappiness Farmar may or may not be experiencing at the moment, it's seemingly tempered with professionalism. Win-win for the Lakers and, ultimately, Farmar himself.
AK
Photo: Jordan Farmar dives for a loose ball. Credit: Mark J. Terrill / Associated Press / December 4, 2009
Farmar's comments had me flashing back to when Kobe used to say similar things - of course once the Tomjanovich experiment failed, you never heard Kobe utter a single negative about the offense, about not doing what he does best, about being held back
If Farmar sticks around long enough, I suspect you'll see a similar switch take place - it took Kobe a VERY long time to temper his skills and goals to that of PJ's.
Posted by: Tim-4-Show | December 08, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Tim-4-Show
I was going to comment on how Kobe had his disagreements with the Triangle and how he saw his skill set not fitting into the system back in the day. He actually expressed this on CBS 60 Minutes. Youtube it. Interesting interview from the past.
Farmar has been playing well of late, but I, like others, am not sold that he can be the point guard of future. He does not shoot well, from the field, free throw line, or three point line. The same excuses he is making for his free throw struggles this year, he made the previous year- "They are going in and out, I'm only shooting two a game". The player I wanted the Lakers to trade for, Hinrich, is not playing well right now, so I guess the Lakers have to stick with Farmar.
Posted by: Tom | December 08, 2009 at 12:55 PM
AK, thanks for a great column. The growing on-court chemistry between Jordan and UPS when they're playing together is helping the two guards and the team in general.
As Fish has proved, the Lakers as constituted don't need a lot of scoring from their point guard. If Jordan can continue to demonstrate self-discipline, improve his FT%, and show he can make clutch shots, there's no reason he can't become the Lakers point guard of the future. Considering all the team's salary cap issues, Dr. Buss is going to be reluctant to go out and spend the money for a premiere point guard. Jordan would be wise to stick around and get a few more rings before trying to go for the big bucks.
Following the posts here, Farmar seems to be converting one hater at a time. For a while he was rivaling Luke as the most reviled. It's a long season and this chapter in Jordan's career is far from being written. But his comments reflect a maturation that is all we should expect from a 23 year old. He'll continue to be judged one game at a time for a while longer. I'm happy to see signs of a turnaround for a player I believe has lots to contribute. It's up to Jordan and I hope he continues on an upward path.
Posted by: Rick Friedman | December 08, 2009 at 01:00 PM
AK,
An intriguining write-up.
I think we all know that from a coach and fan's perspective, Shannon Brown has a better attitude. However, upon going through this thread, I began to forgive Farmar for his inflexibility a bit more.
Many people are prone to dualistic thinking. They tend to categorize life in terms of "this" and "that" instead of synthesis. These types of people's cognitive inflexibility is heightened relative to their sense of ego which makes compromise challenging.
Farmar is one of these people. In addition, he hasn't had the life lessons Shannon Brown has--being thrown around the NBA, struggling to even stay in the league, etc. These kinds of humbling experiences tend to support cognitive flexibility.
Instead, he's gone from UCLA to the Lakers--two programs where players are treated like living gods in their communities.... and he's extremely talented. So, his ego is not rooted purely in delusion, but it is fed by his status and his community.
So, in Farmar's self-important mind, you're either a point guard who penetrates and attacks the basket (a scoring point guard) or you're a point guard who makes the extra pass and tries to get assists (a system-orientated/ball movement point guard). You can't be BOTH!
Well, you can be both. [See Magic Johnson]
This is Farmar's challenge. To think less dualistically and think more syncretically. To focus on how he could be BOTH is just not natural to Farmar, so that's why he resists it. The advantage of thinking dualistically is that it allows a person to commit to a goal with little or no hesitation. It provides clarity, thereby allowing Farmar to be explosively aggressive--and that is how he has succeeded previously.
Farmar doesn't want to be tenative, which is what he fears he'll be if he begins thinking in terms of synthesis, instead of duality.
Farmar could use a nice long lunch with Magic Johnson, just to try to get into his head. I think if Farmar understood the thought processes/decision-making processes of a synthesis-orientated point guard, it might make sense to him better than it does at the moment, because at the moment what is being asked of him doesn't quite make sense, and thus he's struggling a bit with what Phil Jackson is asking of him, but at least he's trying.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 08, 2009 at 01:12 PM
Nice insight. You guys and Kevin Ding really provide insight, not just inflammatory sensationalism (can't believe that's a word nowadays) for the sake of readership.
It would be interesting to ask who Jordan idolizes, or more to the point, who he sees himself as.
I've never been cocky like Jordan, but in the rec league I play in, my teammates used to always ask me to slow the down. Actually it was more like "slow the -f- down!" That's a hard thing to do. As a speed demon, with the defense in a backpedal, you can't help but want to push.
I give Jordan credit for what he's done, but wonder what he envisions. Jordan can win, and win big here, but he's not the first second-string Laker guard to test his hand at being a starter elsewhere (see Derek Fisher).
Sometimes, people need to leave to see what things are like elsewhere.
Posted by: #4 | December 08, 2009 at 01:25 PM
Its taken Farmar a long time to mature...
Shannon had to mature on the fly after being cut then traded..
For Farmar to develop he needs an outside mentor..Not within the club..
Its clear that if Fisher cant help then that help needs to come from the outside..
I hope it clicks and he realizes that this is the FRICKN LAKERS in the middle of a DYNASTY.......
Posted by: Thirty2 | December 08, 2009 at 01:27 PM
#4,
"It would be interesting to ask who Jordan idolizes, or more to the point, who he sees himself as."
I second this request.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 08, 2009 at 01:51 PM
is he traded yet? wake me up. the sun will rise again.
"i'm shooting well" this guy is totally delusional and obviously in denial.
Posted by: ouchhhhhhhhh | December 08, 2009 at 02:01 PM
the shannon/jordie line"kinda" works when the team is up by 15-20 points. but the miami game is the perfect example that when the game is tide, and the opponent is pretty good, they don't work. each dribbles for 10 sec. and after they give the ball up or make some terrible shot.
PJ yanked shannon out.
unfortunately, shannon started to learn some bad habits from jordan
Posted by: ouchhhhhhhhh | December 08, 2009 at 02:02 PM
BK,
Frasier and Niles?
Posted by: exhelodrvr | December 08, 2009 at 02:16 PM
Nice Thread K Bros, I like the water you lead Farmar to, even if he doesn't want to drink there.
Jordan has always been a conundrum to me, he came up with basically one play. Drive to the hoop. He found numerous ways to get there, but he didn't have much else going for him.
At times he'll try a pull up J in transition and often times he holds the ball in his hands too long forcing him to try an nigh impossible shot high up off the glass. Those are the most frustrating moments for me. You have a Kobe or Lamar and now an Artest trailing, make a play to get them a shot. Too often he relegartes the superior player to 'decoy' status when he should set them up, especially since they're all statistically better free throw shooters than he is.
He's cut down on silly threes this season (so far) and hasn't dribbled the ball on the perimeter for an interminable period of time on most possessions, but he's still a scorer before he's a facilitator. He'd be more of an asset to us if he averaged 7 assists a game as oppossed to 7 points a game.
My feeling is that he'll never feel like he'll have had the chance he so obviously craves and that when it comes time to sign a new contract, it'll be the PT/starting issue that determines where he ends up. He won't make more than 5 mil/year (if that) and will be looking for either guaranteed minutes (20+ I'd say) or the opportunity to start and get a chance to prove himself. That doesn't sound like a Laker-proffered deal to me.
Just my shave and hair-cut of the day.
Posted by: Jamie Sweet | December 08, 2009 at 02:25 PM
Farm can shoot more, push the ball, drive the lane, or whatever else he thinks is missing from making him "the guy" but it'll have to be on his next team.
He's right, this isn't a traditional point guard paradise, it's a player's paradise.
Leaving paradise has historically been a bad move.
Posted by: VMan | December 08, 2009 at 02:29 PM
AK,
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Thanks for another great KamBros exclusive player interview with Jordan Farmar plus an excellent analyses of his adjusting role on the team and recent performance off the Lakers bench. I wish Chick had lived long enough to experience what you guys have created with this Lakers Blog. More than our announcers, it is you guys who are becoming this generation’s version of Chick Hearn. Like Chick, you put us inside the Lakers organization just a heartbeat from the next wave of Lakers news.
I have been a big Jordan Farmar supporter from the day he was drafted. To say that I was seriously disappointed at his play last year would be a huge understatement. As a former point guard, I have never been one who believed the Triangle Offense wouldn’t be better with a lead guard with true point guard skills. Passing and moving and spacing is what the offense is all about, not counting transition, pick and rolls, and feeding the post, Although really a combo guard. Jordan was the first lead guard the Lakers have had this decade who actually possessed a true point guard skill set.
The reality is that if Jordan wants to take over from Derek Fisher as the Lakers starting point guard, he will have to make sacrifices to the team in his style and preference of play. He will never have the freedom in the Triangle Offense or the ball in his hands as much if he were playing in another system. That is why the question of whether or not Farmar will stay with the Lakers keeps coming up so much. Maybe like with Trevor, the answer is that Jordan will eventually be better off with another team.
Personally, I don’t Jordan Farmar wants to play for any team but the Lakers. This is his home town. I think much of his improved play this year is the result of his seeing what happened to Trevor Ariza, a home town hero who was startlingly not resigned as the Lakers opted to go physical with Ron Artest. I think Jordan will hunker down and continue to play better and better as the year goes on. If he can play half the minutes at the point by the playoffs, he may well have earned a qualifying offer.
Since Jordan now makes $1.9M, the Lakers could lock him up as a restricted free agent by making a qualifying offer or $2.9M ($5.8M with tax). That would then give them a year more to see how Jordan progresses and the right to match offers by other teams. Considering they will save $10M on Ammo’s expiring contract, I am betting that Jordan will play well enough to at least earn a qualifying offer and another year to show he can be our next point guard. And no, his agent is not David Lee. LOL.
Regardless of how well Jordan plays, however, the Lakers would be smart to target both guard positions in the next few drafts. No way in my opinion is this team going to trade any of their Big 5 of Kobe, Drew, Pau, Ron, and Lamar for Ricky Rubio or any other fantasy point guard. Right now, this team is Kobe and the front court. That’s where the salaries and shots go. So we have to do with what we can when it comes to the point guard position on this Lakers team. Jordan will probably be fine.
No disrespect to Shannon Brown, but I think the faint hopes that some Lakers Bloggers had that he might be a better starting point guard candidate than Jordan Farmar have hopefully been put to rest for good. Shannon has taken over Sasha’s prior role of backing up Kobe and now teams with Jordan, Lamar, and two Lakers starters as the team’s 1.5 string rotation. Right now, in my opinion, there is only one player vying to win the future starting point guard position and that is Jordan Farmar.
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Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | December 08, 2009 at 02:33 PM
ex-
Yeah, I wasn't quite sure what to do with that one...
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | December 08, 2009 at 02:35 PM
i see that jordan farmar is learning and improving as he continues to play in the nba. I was pretty sure this was going to happen. It doesn't change my overall view of farmar 1)there are both better and worse point guards in the nba 2)we probably aren't going to trade for any of them, as 3)we have such ridiculously stacked talent that we can probably win whether jordan farmar improves or not.
but another good article. K Bros, you guys are demonstrating some serious journalistic chops these days. I haven't actually read anything on basketball in the print media in about three weeks now, which is some kind of record for me. I still go out of my way to read Chris Dufresne on college football though. He does good work.
Posted by: phred | December 08, 2009 at 02:48 PM
My couple cents about Farmar. As a guard I think in NBA it's almost "must" to shot at least 70-75% FT. Even Drew as a Center, and I believe statistically Center much worse FT shooter compare to PG, shooting much higher %. So, big question, what is it? Extra work, effort? Or what?
Farmar as a guard not fit for our triangle, he is hogging ball too long and he needs the ball in his hands. Sometimes we bark at Kobe, but Kobe is unique because he can create something out of nothing and Farmar not Kobe by any stretch of imagination. He also not a Fisher, I don't remember when was a last time he took a charge like Fish creating offensive foul. As a conclusion I'm totally with bloggers who still share the same opinion, he is not our PG of the future and his talents would be better off with some other team running traditional PG oriented system.
Posted by: LAL_Fan | December 08, 2009 at 02:50 PM
The PG in Phil's triangle is only a label, since Kobe (our PG on the perimeter) and Pau (our PG in the post) are the real PGs in this system, as was Michael and Scottie in Chicago. Phil's ideal PG is in actuality a SG, who hustles and plays well under pressure, can play defense and hit the open shot (i.e. Fish, Ronnie Brown, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong, etal). If we are discussing the PG of the future for this budding Laker Dynasty, than Farmar does not fit the bill in any way shape or form. It is no coincidence that he has been shopped around for quite some time, and it is no coincidence that the front office was not able to find any takers. Some would argue that a traditional PG, like Farmar, is a better route to take. Well if you want to go the traditional PG route, as opposed to Phil's prototypical PG, than just look around the league and there is an abundance of good traditional PGs who are much better and have more promise than Farmar, and more good PGs are entering the league every year.
The NBA is evolving into a PG's league. There are good PGs everywhere you look, even down to the bench. This year's class of rookie PGs alone has plenty of PGs that should have promising NBA careers (Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings, Johnny Flynn, Stephen Curry, Rubio, Ty Lawson, etc), and there will be more and more able PGs in the draft for years to come. Most of these ROOKIES are already better than Farmar. The only starting PG in the league that Farmar MIGHT be better than is Chris Duhon. It's difficult to even find a backup PG in the league that Farmar is clearly better than.
Farmar might be suitable to lead the bench, but as the starting PG of the next Laker Dynasty, I don't think so. No way in hell. The Lakers deserve better. Even if Farmar has a great year, the front office will not make the same mistake of paying someone who only performs in their contract year (i.e. Luke and Sahsa).
Posted by: LAKER TRUTH | December 08, 2009 at 03:00 PM
Great Column. It is good to see Jordan improve this season but should we resign him, in a word, NO....
Posted by: Mark | December 08, 2009 at 03:10 PM
"It would be interesting to ask who Jordan idolizes, or more to the point, who he sees himself as."
That's easy to answer from the way he plays, walk and talk.
Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Monte Ellis are more like it.
Defintely not John Stockton, Steve Nash or Magic Johnson.
Sasha and Farmar both think of themselves first before the team, that's why their chemistry on the court is terrible.
I would keep Shannon and keep looking to replace Farmar and Sasha.
Posted by: Staples 24 | December 08, 2009 at 03:18 PM
Hello lakerblog.... Good posts lately esp on the STERN THE ANTICHRIST that are gettin my juices flowin.....
Lakertruth- agree on all pts. Now ur really livin up to your name
Troy- yes yes!! These refs are sterns little cronies and salvatorre nxt to crawford have completely sold their souls to the devil just like every bspn commentator/writer/reporter who have to continuously defend every bogus call because they can't bite the hand that feeds them
Wesjoe- that dallas/heat finals is literally one of the worst FIXES IN SPORTS EVER.... Dallas was absolutely dominating that series up 3-1.... Stern didn't like what he saw and clearly wanted to promote dwade as the nxt big superstar. Go back and look at dwades FTs in game 6 and 7 with the series on the line... He knew he could just drive the lane and AUTOMATIC WHISTLE.... Shaq was also an absolute nonfactor so I don't even know why he gets so much credit for his kobeless ring..... Stern also had major issues with cuban and there's no way he would let him win.
AK... I could somewhat live with you defending lukes game but how in the world can you defend that contract??!! You can't justify his contract by saying there are tons of other role players in the league that make about the same..... Bottomline is his current market value would not be close to that amount.... Everyone knows luke is a onedimensional triangle player who gets special love from phil.... there is not another crazy GM out there today who would pay him close to midlevel... So relatively speaking his contract is a HUGE BURDEN no matter which way you spin this...
Lakertom.... Happy belated... But damn medicare already? maybe I should call you uncle tom instead ;).... Also agree with ur post about lakers getting very big tall and long but believe me when luke is back and playing with our starters that's all about to change real fast... We may all be askin phillip soon " honey who shrunk the kids?"...
NBA ITS FAN-TASTIC! WHERE CORRUPTION HAPPENS!
Posted by: yellofever | December 08, 2009 at 03:19 PM
We have not talked about defense and Farmar. No matter his ups and downs on the offensive side and willingness to "submit" to the system, Jordan has played below average defense. He was always one of the easiest players to shed on a screen, stepped aside instead of taking charges, slow laterally for a small quick guard, didn't put his body on people, etc.
Until recently.
Now I see Farmar consciously tryingto become a better defender. And he's always had the speed and jumping ability to come from behind and block a shot on the opponents' break.
Part of it may be the competition from Shannon who has always shown better defense compared to Farmar and Sasha.
Part of it may be the Lakers as a whole have improved their defense to where they are now one of the top defensive teams in the regular season consistently.
Part of it may be seeing Artest's example on defense where I think Ron ron has been a leader this year and in so small part responsible for Lakers' improved defense.
Part of it may be the lack of a contract and the humbling experience to be basically on a tryout again.
Part of it may be just a function of getting more mature and becoming a more complete basketball player.
Posted by: LakerinBC | December 08, 2009 at 03:43 PM
LakerTom,
Since I don't feel like making a long post of my own about Farmar I second yours ;)
But I did want to amplify the last point you made about Shannon (or at least give it my own twist if you decide not to agree with this).
Not only is Shannon not playing the PG position right now, but he is simply not a good choice for it. The kid is a decent defender, plays WELL above the rim and has a semi-decent shot.
But IMHO he is NOT a good ball handler and I don't think he makes the best decisions when he has the ball in a half court set. He had a lot of success late in the season last year (as did Ariza) by bringing fresh energy and a clear willingness to shut up and work. But even last year, when he was taking Farmar's minutes, it wasn't because he was doing a good job running the team on offense.
This year, in half court sets (which our bread and butter), and with opposing teams now accounting for him, he has proven that he can make some shots. But he has also proven that he is a turnover machine when trying to make plays for the rest of the team (not to overstate it or anything).
When you add all that up you get a guy with a SG skill set, definitely not a PG, and probably not even triple post PG like Fisher. This is almost certainly why he had so much trouble getting burn on his various teams. He is a SG in a PG body, and his initials aren't AI.
But unlike the rest of the league we run the Triangle, which can be very forgiving to players who are a mismatch for the rest of the league. As a result Shannon (as a SG) doesn't have to break down taller players off the dribble on Iso plays like he would anywhere else. He just has to sit back and wait for the offense to create an open look.. and then shoot the ball. And in the meantime play solid D and make the occasional spectacular play in transition.
~Thomas
Posted by: Thomas | December 08, 2009 at 03:44 PM
Who are the best PGs in the league? Top three are probably Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, in some order. How many titles do they have?
You don't need a great PG to win in the NBA. You need to be good both outside and inside on offense, and good on defense. That can still be accomplished with an adequate PG. If Farmar improves a little more (which is a reasonable expectation, based on his recent play), he will be an adequate starter for the Lakers, which is all they need, considering the rest of the roster. Anything above that is gravy.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | December 08, 2009 at 03:47 PM
Yeah Ex...its the whole Smush Parker syndrome.Your willingness to get rid of Faramr depends on what you can replace him with.I like how AK touched on the point about the players mentalities.My view is they are paid an awful lot of money to help the team.Nobody is paid to work to either indulge themselves or look for personal success that is in conflict to what the organisation as a whole requires.It seems amazing to me that these basketball players just can't quite fully understand that and its like they are doing the team a favour by doing what is asked of them.I think the attitude of the point guard is particularly important in this offense if you look at Fisher,Paxson etc and you want a guy who naturally plays and thinks in a certain way.I'm sure Farmar COULD do it but better finding someone who is more of a natural fit if possible.
Teach Brown the offense and give him the job.
Posted by: Kiwi | December 08, 2009 at 04:09 PM
Ex - I agree completely, and only because that Jordan - because of defense and attitude - seems to only be capable of adequate. It's all in the brain - and while his physical talent is up there in the semi-rare air, the brain has always been in a small rut in the road. I like Jordan - I like this team. When Kobe slows way down it expansionism not matter who we have.
Posted by: Otis | December 08, 2009 at 04:12 PM
ex,
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>>> If Farmar improves a little more (which is a reasonable expectation, based on his recent play),
>>> he will be an adequate starter for the Lakers, which is all they need, considering the rest of the
>>> roster. Anything above that is gravy.
You are truly the master of the understatement, ex, a man who has made blog history pointing out the obvious that so many blind Lakers fans refuse to see. The added words of verbosity are appreciated.
The gravy in the Farmar situation may well be his alpha-dog mentality and his true point guard skill set. What would you rather be, the starting point guard for the multiple-championship LA Lakers or the #1 ball handling and scoring option on the Memphis Grizzlies or LA Clippers? Farmar went to UCLA. He knows what the destiny and history of the sport are all about. He wants to be a Laker. That’s his only goal in my mind. Anything else is like Trevor Ariza.
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Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | December 08, 2009 at 04:20 PM
Here's a list of BACKUP PG's that I think would be just as good or better fit as the starting PG over Farmar:
Shannon Brown, Jarred Jack, DJ Augustin, Luke Ridnour, Eddie House, Rafer Alston, Larry Hughes, Kirk Heinrich, Jose Barea, Goran Dragic, Jason Williams, Sebastian Telfair, Steve Blake, Darren Collison, Ramon Sessions, Will Bynum, Azabuke, Anthony Murow, Eric Maynor.
The list is endless.
Posted by: LAKER TRUTH | December 08, 2009 at 04:26 PM
I'm still not getting why Sasha isn't getting more playing time.
Posted by: troy | December 08, 2009 at 05:50 PM
First and foremost I'm not a die-hard Farmar's fan even though I do root for him a little bit more because we do share the same alma mater. However I do feel sorry for him that his talent and potential is not being fully utilized and he is NEVER going to flourish under the Triangle.
Maybe the Lakers can do themselves AND Jordan a favor by trading him or not re-signing him so he can go somewhere and blossom.
I also think that Jordan is just not good enough to be a starting PG on a championship team. However he could be much more useful to a team if he's allowed to play TRADITIONAL PG. That is if he is allowed to run an up-tempo pace and plenty of penetration via the pick n roll. He has proven this ability when the Bench Mob was at its peak last year, being allowed to run and gun.
It is a total waste of his talent to have him be a "facilitator" the way Fish is. It is perfect for Fish because he's got no speed, no slashing ability, no finishing touch and all he has to do is hang around to shoot open jumpers which is what Fish does best. OTH, Farmar is 100% opposite of Fish.
Why are some Laker fans so dismissive of Jordan's aggressiveness to attack the basket? Haven't they seen how a quick and effective slashing PG could break down LA's defense and drive the Lakers bonker time over time over the years? That is perhaps until this year when LA has to muster up two 7-footers, Bynum and Gasol in the paint PLUS two All-defensive-caliber perimeter defenders, Kobe and Artest to slow down opposing PGs.
That is the price the Lakers pay to adequately defend themselves against opposing PGs! Never underestimate the power of a quick penetrating slashing PG to disrupt the opponents' defense.
But then again with Phil, Jordan is destined to just stand around and pass the ball around the horn, a la Fish... what a waste.
Last but not least, sorry but I'm just not blinded by the blings blings. To me a real great coach knows how to mold his system to take advantage of his players' best talent, not the other way around.
Posted by: Psycorp | December 08, 2009 at 06:03 PM
EX
Who are the best PGs in the league? Top three are probably Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, in some order. How many titles do they have?
Tony Parker... 4
Posted by: VMan | December 08, 2009 at 06:54 PM
"Who are the best PGs in the league? Top three are probably Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, in some order. How many titles do they have? ..."
...
Tony Parker might have something to say about that list. And if memory serves, Tony has 3 rings. And all this talk about our Laker PG's needing time to mature, remember that TP was a 19-year old who never played in the US when he was given the keys to the Rolls-Royce and drove it to 3 championships.
Posted by: The Snake | December 08, 2009 at 06:56 PM
Right now there is nobody out there to replace Farmar, Hinrich is a long shot and too expensive for a luxury team. So far, Jordan has been playing well and wait till his valleys appear, then cynics will again go for a trade. If you were Mitch, how are you going to solve the Farmar dilemma at the end of the year? Is he the PG of the future? it depends on what is available out there in 2010. If Farmar asks for 5M per years, that's double in a luxury team, so I guess Lakers would look elsewhere. Perhaps, the 3m will be a good batting average for average salary for two more years, anything above that Lakers should just go with College rookies taller and faster than Farmar. We have to think on the total salary of the Lakers and make some hard choices. Kobe's salary will go up, Pau will have his contract renewal next season, Fisher will be re-sign at a lower rate, still Lakers will hit the luxury taxes. If lakers will make a reapeat, there will be another player out there who would like the follow the Artest path of getting a ring, a marquee player willing to take less just to be part of purple and gold. Will Jerry and Mitch refuse those good players?
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | December 08, 2009 at 06:58 PM
There's always a lot of talk about the "PG of the future" for the Lakers. Remember, this is a zen-coached team and in zen it's about the present, not the future. If Jordan has a productive season with around 20 mpg and a championship ending, the team will probably want to stick with continuity and what's worked in the present. As Laker Tom said, they'd most likely make him a qualifying offer of 2.9. And as Laker Truth correctly noted, there's a lot of PGs in the sea. Which means it's doubtful that another team would bid against the Lakers for Farmar. And then we'll have another year of wondering what's in Farmar's future and another year of him being a backup who may get just as many minutes as Fish (who will still be solid and will still catch flak from a fair number of bloggers). Same as it ever was... and hopefully with another championship.
Posted by: dave m | December 08, 2009 at 07:03 PM
It's really reat to see/read stories about the other men on the team!!!! These two are the future and growing fast. I get tired of when another player makes a great pass or an awesome basket, no matter wherre Kobie is, we see a picture of him. Farmar and Brown are awesome, it's about time they're reconized. Pul Gasol came to a so-so team, since then they are 120 over .500 winning mark. He is the true M.V.P. Until Pul came, "Kobie's team" never won anything to speak of. I love it when TNT, ESPN and A.B.C. broadcasts Laker games. The two Kobie P.R. announcers, I don't know how much they get paid to say "Kobie", I'm sure it's a lot. Kobie has not won anything on his own without solid stars around him. I will say with my last breath Kobie is one of the greatest individual players ever. The M.V.P., the "superstar" makes players around him better. Kobie may get another scoring title, As Miami G.M. Pat Railey said "shot a lot, score a lot". If he gets another scoring trophy, the Lakers will not win a championship. Magic Johnson once said that Kobie could have a triple-double "anytime he wants"... It took Kobie 13 years what Mr. Johnson understood in one.
Posted by: Gary Whitacre | December 08, 2009 at 07:23 PM
dave m, edwin- good comments. psycorp- i'm sorry if i misunderstood, but are you saying that phil jackson should change his philosophy to better utilize jordan farmar? If so, i don't get it.
ex- chauncey billups. Ok, i think your point was actually- do we need an elite pg to win a championship; no. which i not only agree with, i'm pretty sure i said the same thing about four comments pvs. so i'm not going to pretend to disagree.
Posted by: phred | December 08, 2009 at 07:33 PM
I'm amazed at how young people hafta ALWAYS figure things out for themselves (the grass is greener on the other side) even when trustworthy people (players, parents, friends) with experience explain how this is an illusion.
The players with the rings want the money and freedom to play like they can play. In turn, the players who are playing free but making big ching would give it up in a heartbeat for a couple of rings.
Jordan Farmar is a classic example of a kid that just doesn't get it... so lemmie help him with this:
Jordan... you're getting paid an incredible amount of money to play professional basketball for the Los Angeles Lakers, one of the, if not THE, greatest franchise in all of sports. You also get to share the court with all-star caliber players, as well as some international talent who could walk into any Mickey D's in the world and get a free Happy Meal, AND you are hooping it up every single day with one of the top five players of all time, not to mention the most successful Coach to ever walk on this planet. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Whether or not "the system" works for Jordan Farmar is irrelevant. If he cannot figure out for himself that where he's at currently is the place of envy for MILLIONS of people, well... that's just plain ol' sad.
If he's one of those that would give it all up to take a pay raise and sit at the bottom of the standings year after year while he's busy being "the man"... that's not sad anymore... that's stupid.
Farmar has the potential right now to put another three or four rings on his fingers... maybe more. In addition, he has the abilities to actually contribute to this possible Laker Dynasty... if he's smart.
And to think... if the Lakers had passed on him a few years ago, Jordan Farmar could very well have been the starting point guard for the New Jersey Nets right about now.
...The General.
Posted by: General Hooper | December 08, 2009 at 10:07 PM
I miss The Critter and LaRon Profit.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!!!!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 09, 2009 at 12:13 AM
improved play from farmar???? how many games??? one, two??? not complaining???? yeah right! it took him 3 or 4 yrs to figure it out??? ah! must be a contract season.....
Posted by: lakerfan@818 | December 09, 2009 at 12:43 AM
Excellent post General Hooper, I completely agree, and I genuinely think Shannon Brown feels that which makes him such a favorite of the fans and coaching staff alike. I definitely wouldn't mind if SB continued to eat Sasha's minutes.
Also many interesting posts by all the commenters above regarding Farmar and his abilities (or inabilities). It will definitely be interesting to see how Jordan shapes up for the rest of the season and what moves he will be making regarding his future in the NBA.
Also, great post Tom! I don't remember seeing that particular 60 minutes with Bryant, but I definitely remember (just as everyone else) Kobe's frustration with the triangle offense earlier in his career. I'd like to see what he had to say about the offense nearly 10 years later. Just as General Hooper said, "I'm amazed at how young people hafta ALWAYS figure things out for themselves (the grass is greener on the other side) even when trustworthy people (players, parents, friends) with experience explain how this is an illusion."
True words.
Posted by: joneric | December 09, 2009 at 02:31 AM
Another valuable insight from this amazing blog, and something I am double grateful for cos these kind of second line news won't ever make Italian Chronicles from NBA (today for instance we will probably have a whole day up with the latest Celtic win. And no need to add I'm far from impressed by that... *sigh*).
I have a suspended judgement on Jordan. I still don't like his attitude, and I have serious doubts he could fill in a much demanding role than he's accomplishing now.
I rank him above Sasha, but I am not bought on his side yet.
And this insight keeps me on that place.
On the other side, I think for giving us what we need from him this year, he needs to believe he can play that stepping-up role he thinks he's so fit for, and someway to perceive that kind of well biased faith around him from the locker room and also from the fans could help him - therefore us - a lot.
I hope the tiny, tiny, TINY balance that keeps him useful for the Lakers and not a double sided knife to us will mantain for this season.
As long as he covers what PJ asks him to, I'm fine with him.
At the moment I am not really seeing whom we should pursue in his (and Sasha's) place. But the season will land that answer to us in a while, and let's hope the answer is gonna be satisfying on all sides.
After another ring, of course.
Posted by: ZairaAmaterasu | December 09, 2009 at 02:45 AM
This interview explains what I see on court. Farmar has a very clear of the kind of PG he wants to be and he struggles with playing another style.
I like Jordan, but from UCLA to the Lakers I have always struggled with his hard headed approach to the game. Here is a chance for Jordan to re-frame his internal struggles:
"I have a chance to play on a team that just won an NBA title and has the potential to compete for a few more. The starting PG slot is going to be available. I get to play for the greatest coach in NBA history, alongside one of the greatest players ever. And I am learning a new way to play the game that will make me a more well rounded player. I'm a lucky bastard!!"
The alternative? Jordan leaves at the end of the year. He plays for a lesser franchise (they are all lesser). He plays his style of Jordan-ball. But Jordan is not a franchise-type PG. So he gets to dribble to the hoop more, and lose a lot more games.
His "style" does not win titles. The two best small, dribbly PGs of our time, Iverson and Nash, have exactly zero NBA titles between them. Jordan should learn to be happy on this team. Otherwise someone will be the starting PG on a team that wins multiple titles. It's up to him.
Tom D.
Posted by: Tom Daniels | December 09, 2009 at 07:00 AM
A number of posters have noted that there are a lot of good PGs in the league today. So while having a great PG is obviously beneficial, it is pretty clearly not the best way to separate one team from the others. And neither is SG/SF - there are a lot of very good players at that position (combining them since so many players play both) today. The best way in today's game to separate yourself from the rest is with quality big men, particularly centers. The Lakers have two of the top four centers in the league, one of the top 3-4 PFs, and the best backup PF in the league. They win more games because of the mismatches they have underneath than they do from the mismatches they get with Kobe, and that FAR outweighs what they lose at the PG position.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | December 09, 2009 at 07:14 AM
Farmar's improvement is due mainly to contract time. He knows it is in his best interest to give the coaches what they ask for. Keep bucking the system and you end up without a contract extension. They drafted him, they already knew his game and what he can do. Every player has to tailor his game at some point to fit into a system. His cockiness as to what he can do makes me sick. Great players adjust. Brown is a perfect example. He just wants to play and is doing any and everything to be on the court. He will be part of All-Star weekend as a result. It took until the end of his contract, but Farmar finally realizes who holds the power. Coaches. Why was Shannon Brown and Trevor Ariza buried at the end of bench on previous teams -- coaches. The fact that Farmar is showing the capability to change his game works in his favor. Wait until he gets on a team where he gets big minutes -- but they're losers. Be careful what you wish for Farmar.
Posted by: lew | December 09, 2009 at 07:47 AM
Tim-4-Show and Tom,
Both of you already brought up what I was going to say about Farmar, in that his comments mirror almost word-for-word Kobe's when PJ first got here. The elephant in this room is the fact that the vast majority of the teams in this league play the way Farmar wants to play. However, none of those teams has won a championship in a very, very, long time. I don't remember when the last free-wheeling, dive-and-slash, or run-and-gun team has win it all. Might have even been before he was born.
Maybe you can count Miami. But that wasn't a team, that was a dude. Wade just went unconscious. Farmar is no Wade.
Maybe Farmar came to the NBA to play, and not necessarily to win. If that is the case, then his best fit *is* elsewhere (as much as it pains me to say that).
However, I can completely understand the frustration. Night in and night out he sees dudes playing just the way he wants to play and being congratulated for it on the other side of the court.
It is this dichotomy of philosophy that is the reason most dudes take over a year to fit into the Triangle. Pau and Artest are freaks of nature. They are the only two in all of these years where the transition has been so smooth. It is a matter if IQ that has allowed the two of them to catch on so quick.
Jordan might not be that smart, or he may be allowing his ego to overshadow his intelligence (a very common occurrence in the NBA). I hope he wises up. He definitely does everything Fish does, and some things better. He can be our future PG. Now, however, the ball in completely in his court.
--Fearless
Posted by: Fearless | December 09, 2009 at 07:55 AM
EX
Who are the best PGs in the league? Top three are probably Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, in some order. How many titles do they have?
Tony Parker... 4
Posted by: VMan | December 08, 2009 at 06:54 PM
=====================
Surround any of those first 3 pgs with the Lakers and see how many rings they would have.
Posted by: JustaLakerFankerFan | December 09, 2009 at 09:05 AM
Well it all goes to do you want to be a part of something greater, a cog on a championship team, or do you want to be the big fish in in the small pond. I guess he can ask Trevor about it after the season is done. Went from #5 option to #1, but he is also loosing a ton of games now and his shooting percentage is way down because he has no great players to keep the pressure off of him.
UPS clearly has learned, he will do what ever it takes. Farmar has not had that life lesson yet.
And, I think that UPS could totally replace Fish in a few years. As we have said time and time again, the triangle does not require a traditional PG- Fisher is not a traditional PG, he is more like a short shooting guard. I fully expect Farmar to be traded or not resigned and that UPS will take over the spot from Fish eventually. Sahsha will then go back to taking the back up SG minutes as we will not likely find any takers for his big contract. Plus, I also agree that we should concentrate on guards in the upcoming draft.
I could be wrong though- Mitch might just pull out the Magic Wand again. He is deadly with that thing.
Posted by: Dr. Funkbot | December 09, 2009 at 09:09 AM
Last but not least, sorry but I'm just not blinded by the blings blings. To me a real great coach knows how to mold his system to take advantage of his players' best talent, not the other way around.
Posted by: Psycorp | December 08, 2009 at 06:03 PM
======================
I completely agree
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | December 09, 2009 at 09:39 AM
Right now there is nobody out there to replace Farmar, Hinrich is a long shot and too expensive for a luxury team. So far, Jordan has been playing well and wait till his valleys appear, then cynics will again go for a trade. If you were Mitch, how are you going to solve the Farmar dilemma at the end of the year? Is he the PG of the future? it depends on what is available out there in 2010. If Farmar asks for 5M per years, that's double in a luxury team, so I guess Lakers would look elsewhere. Perhaps, the 3m will be a good batting average for average salary for two more years, anything above that Lakers should just go with College rookies taller and faster than Farmar. We have to think on the total salary of the Lakers and make some hard choices. Kobe's salary will go up, Pau will have his contract renewal next season, Fisher will be re-sign at a lower rate, still Lakers will hit the luxury taxes. If lakers will make a reapeat, there will be another player out there who would like the follow the Artest path of getting a ring, a marquee player willing to take less just to be part of purple and gold. Will Jerry and Mitch refuse those good players?
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | December 08, 2009 at 06:58 PM
=========================
sup Edwin,
Gotta throw my 2 cents in on this. I think there is a pg out there we replace Farmar with. At this point not likely or probable but I'd say he could replace Farmar and be pg of the Lakers future. That would be Rubio.
He is rook and can be brought around slowly while SB/Sasha back up Fish or Kobe back up Fish in a pinch. So that is my point.
Jerry and Mitch have stated they would make any trade that improves the Lakers so I bet money would be the main obstacle. I think Rubio can hold out for trade if he was inclined. Minny would have to look to see if taking Farmar and draft picks and possibly Luke will help so that they can use Farmar as trade bait to address other needs.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | December 09, 2009 at 09:50 AM