Derek Fisher on defense in today's NBA
I had an interesting exchange with Derek Fisher at practice earlier this week about defense in today's NBA worth passing along...
Q: The way games are called now on the perimeter, with guards especially, how do you quantify defense as a point guard? Is it more about helping? Putting the opposition in the spots you want them on the floor? Or is it still about staying in front of your guy?
Fisher: It's more so about being able to influence guys to have to operate in certain areas and certain positions now. I think you're required to know much more about the guy you're playing against, his strengths and weaknesses, whether he prefers to shoot going left or right, or how he finishes at the basket going left or right, and then try your best to influence him and make him operate in the weaker areas.
But as far as staying in front of him or trying to be physical with him? You can't do it anymore.
Q: Is there anybody in the league that's still considered a "lock down" point guard?
Fisher: (pauses to think) Not that I know of. I don't think at any position there is. I know a lot of people say that about Kobe, but I think in international play he has more an ability to do it than he does at this level. As soon as it looks like a guy is being overly physical they call a foul, even if there's not a lot actually happening. I don't know if there are any. I know there are guys that are capable of being lock down defenders, but the way the game is being called now, with the focus on freedom of movement, it's almost impossible.
Q: So it really emphasizes team defense?
Fisher: Yes, absolutely.
No question a lot of this is relative: There are guys who are better at staying in front of their man than others, players who do well against quicker covers but struggle against stronger ones, and so on. No question having an imposing big in the lane makes a difference. But even the best defenders, and certainly an attentive and motivated Kobe Bryant would qualify, struggle to mark the league's best players one on one.
The most successful defensive teams are the ones that consistently make good and coordinated decisions as a group, not necessarily the one filled with the best individual defenders.
Big picture, I think the Lakers have done better work over the last couple weeks on their own end, looking more like the top five team statistics (or at least one statistic, defensive efficiency) say they are. (In a relatively ironic twist, it's been much more painful at times to watch the offense. Go figure.) That they'll have two more games than anticipated to re-integrate Andrew Bynum into the lineup is a bonus going into the playoffs, but once the real games it'll be the decisons they make on the context of team defense that make the difference.
BK
Interesting to hear Fish's take.
Thanks for posting.
Go Lakers!!!
Posted by: olf | April 11, 2009 at 03:59 PM
I really think that the NBA...if not already...is moving from pure man2man defense to more of a man-zone. Kind of the "my guy just beat me to the basket but my 4/5 shifted over to contest his shot, and the 3 guy shifted over to cover the 4/5's guy." I think that is why we see the points in the paint increase for every team in the league, and not always necessarily by a big guy.
That is why it is imperative to have a PG who can on offense: shoot, drive to the hole (and quickly to beat his defender), and be able to distribute the rock intelligently and on defense: be quick and stay with his man, and be able to shift quickly when another teammate shifts defenders, like on a pickNroll.
Today's game is so great for me because just because you are talented individually does not always make you successful. It takes team chemistry on offense/defense and a good knowledge of basketball IQ to be successful. The game is more strategic today than ever.
Posted by: IanFountains | April 11, 2009 at 04:02 PM
There is no other active PG who can run the triangle as well as DFish; his presence is like having a coach on the floor. And to think that he actually took a pay cut to be able to play with LAL again. His real value to the team does not show up in the numbers as there are no stats for poise, leadership, and character.
Posted by: The Snake | April 11, 2009 at 04:15 PM
Blah. I liked the days when the zone wasn't allowed in the NBA. It put a premium on great individual defenders. All of these new defensive schemes are making the league more like college basketball.
Posted by: EJK | April 11, 2009 at 04:22 PM
First of all, Fish rocks. Plain and simple.
Second - there's been a lot of blog talk the past couple days about sending Jordan packing and I have to admit that I myself posted something a few days back about getting tired of his learning curve. But, I was just thinking about it, and do we really need to carve the guy's epitaph right now? Doesn't Shannon's recent play allow us a bit of a luxury?
The way I see it, we can probably sign Shannon for around a mil to 1.5 for next season (he's making around 800,000 this year). Jordan makes a little less than 2m next year I think, and will be an expiring contract. Sun's a project for 730,000 next year. Fish is the only guy who's making solid money - he'll make a little over 5m next year and that's not a lot to pay for the starting point guard on the best team in the league.
So, I'd say, unless some really enticing trade comes up (and we'd probably have to package Jordan with a more expensive piece), maybe we just keep what we have to start the year. Fish, Shannon, Jordan and Sun for less than 9m is pretty deep and affordable guard corp (plus there's Sasha who can play the position in a pinch. Oh, and the draft - you never know, a decent player might slip to 30.
Okay, feel free to fire back with both barrels.
Posted by: dave m | April 11, 2009 at 06:53 PM
I hope that we get Portland in the second round so that people can't say that the Lakers were lucky not to face them should Portland lose in the first round. Personally, I think the Blazers are like the Jazz when it comes to playing the Lakers. They'll play the Lakers tough, especially on their home floors but will not get over the hump because the Lakers are just the better team and will stand in the way of these teams for a while yet. Like great teams that had the unfortunate fate of facing MJ and the Bulls during their second threepeat, these Blazers, Jazz, Hornets, Nuggets and Rockets will discover this to be true as Kobe and these Lakers make a run for multiple championships. I've excluded the Spurs because they're the team in the West that has won championships other than the Lakers over the past 10 years. But, unlike the Lakers, the Spurs are older and seem to be on the decline right now although their experience and savvy could still present problems to any team out West.
This is why the Lakers are the most beloved and hated team in all the NBA because they just almost always seem to be in the hunt for the title and are a model of consistency when it comes to winning. The Lakers rarely go through a bad cycle where they're down for several years and then work their way back up. Credit the owner, management, coaching and the fact that we continue to find that Superstar(s) and players that keep the winning tradition in Hollywood. I've no doubt in my mind that even Kobe hangs it up, that the Lakers will plug in another star alongside Bynum and Gasol to keep the purple and gold royal in the NBA. Seriously, the Rockets have two rings, SuperSonics 1, Blazers 1, Warriors 1, Jazz 0, Suns 0, Nuggets 0, Clippers -0, Hornets 0, Mavericks 0, Kings 0. Think about it. Which team stood in the way of most of these teams not getting a title or more titles??? That's right the Lakers(Spurs to a lesser degree because they don't have as many titles). The Lakers beat great Rockets, Sonics, Blazers, Mavericks, Kings and Spurs teams spanning three decades now from the 80's, 90's and 00's to challenge for the title. This is why all these teams and their cities loathe the Lakers because we tend beat their best assembled teams which then lead them into a downward spiral into mediocrity or worse while the Lakers consistently find a way stay in contention. All these teams in the West will find themselves in real trouble should the Lakers win it all this year because it will make the Lakers hungry for much, much more especially Kobe. So I say bring on all comers because these Lakers will stop them in their tracks as past great Laker teams have done before them.
Posted by: Nemaia Faletogo | April 11, 2009 at 08:04 PM
I have to say it. No one was complaining about the referees when the Lakers were getting the multitude of calls during the Nuggets game and shooting over 40 free throws. The discrepancy was well in favor of the Lakers, but no one complained.
Just saying.
Posted by: Pig Miller | April 11, 2009 at 08:23 PM
Dave M,
I agree with what you say to keep all and just be UBERdeep at the 1 and 2 positions.
Yes, and the price is excellent as well...
but what about playing time?
Someone has to be odd man out....and for us as a team in general, that is the only problem in being so utterly deep as a team that we are 1-12....playing time.
Look at "Bangin" Mbenga....unlike Farmar he has been consistenly improving...but now that Bynum is back, neither him or Josh Powell will see much time.
But who knows at this point, I am just glad as a Laker fan to have all this talent on our team, and i know that our excellent coaching staff will find a way to make it work.
Posted by: IanFountains | April 11, 2009 at 08:24 PM
Fish only proves furthermore how HARDER it is today than in previous generations. Fish can't be as physical as he could be back in the three-peat years.
THE ABSENCE OF HAND CHECKING IS A BIG REASON WHYTHE LEAGUE EASIER TO SCORE TODAY RATHER THAN EITHER THE SHAQ-KOBE DAYS OR THE SHOWTIME DAYS.
Those days you had to be more fundamental and more on TEAM effort to win. Nowadays the Lebrons, Wades, and yes the Kobes sell more tickets because the fans want to see more spectacular scoring.
You have 3 players today who have had 60+pt games since then - all perimeters - AI, Arenas, KB . Before 2005, the only active player with a 60pt game was Shaq. It remains the single biggest change in the general play of the game and it's why Winter hates the elimination of hand checking completely.
Players and coaches both agree that it is HARDER to defend against perimeter players than it was back in the Showtime days. That is FACT (Dumars, Drexler, Winters, Rod Thorn, Reggie Miller, and now Derek Fisher all agree).
How do you defend today? Quickness and technique. Out of the current starting lineup perimeter wise Kobe is the best and actually Fisher is the second best perimeter defender and the gap between Kobe and Derek is huge. Shannon Brown is up and coming and could be a better defender at the point than Fish was though we'll never know for sure because SB can never hand check as much as Fish was able to.
Then I will hear the backlash from Ariza dudes. Get over it, Ariza is best at creating steals and he has to guard more possessions than he can steal. What then?
Using hands more than using feet: POOR DEFENSE.
Kobe: When goes against top perimeter scorers (Lebron, Wade), best defender uses FEET first and hands as well. Hence why he's a great defender in spite of no handchecking. Fish: Same technique but athleticism isn't the same as 2002 Fish nor as athletic as Kobe. SB: Up and coming and seems to have the same techniques.
Farmar, Vujacic, Ariza: Hands first, feet first dudes.
Posted by: Kobeblitz | April 11, 2009 at 08:24 PM
Ian, it's tough to parcel it out, for sure. I liked the Denver game, where Farmar and Brown each played 14 minutes. The reality of course is that one of them will end up getting more minutes, there's just no perfect split with that many guys at one postition.
But, it's like you said about Mbenga and Powell. I remember the start of the season, I was jazzed about the fact that we had four 7-footers (Bynum, Pau, Mbenga and Mihm). I always want to see us as deep as possible. It causes tensions sometimes when guys aren't getting their minutes but better that than to come up short when the injury bug hits.
Posted by: dave m | April 11, 2009 at 09:42 PM
I agree with EJK. This zone bull is the equivalent of the college no dunk rule of the late 60's - just pure bull. So many drives to the basket result in a kick-out. Boring as
college BBall, this NBA has become.
Posted by: Otis | April 11, 2009 at 10:55 PM
Dump the zone rule, dump the double technical, allow more of the old hand checking, it helps the offensive player as well, keeps him aware of what his defender is upto and where he is....blocking, regardless of whether the defender is standing or jumping, if the offensive player initiates the contact call an offensive foul...it's so stupid that a defender has to rush to a spot and assume the flat-footed run into me stance...he should be able to continue playing D. Those plays where they are backpedaling but the offensive player runs them over and a block is called is absolutely absurd....
This year will be the first of 3 in a row for the Lakers as they are transitioning. Players and coaches.
14-1......that's championships lakers-blazers, and by the way do you guys hang conference banners??? Cuz they ain't worth squat.
Posted by: humanomaly (aka "The Anti-Crust") | April 12, 2009 at 12:25 AM
Dave M.......I agree with the point guard depth as well but one of the 4 has to go...Now....As i have mentioned before i dont like Jordan Farmar...If you look at Fisher when he first joined the Lakers he had Harper and Shaw to learn from.Farmar has a fantastic teacher in Fisher but the difference is EGO....The guy needs it scratched ....and secondly i think Farmar would be more suited to a break-neck speed system than the one he's in at the moment.
Im not saying Brown or Sun are the answer but Farmar gets the short straw with me..
As for who we draft....I would love a big power forward project...Powell is a stop gap but not the future...Someone who loves to do the dirty work and loves contact.....Think Craig Smith but with more size...
Other needs ....someone to give Kobe rest....
Posted by: Thirty2 | April 12, 2009 at 04:33 AM
Hapy Easter all!
Time to remember a great accidental Chickism. Toward the end of his great run as Laker announcer, Chick was putting an Easter Sunday game in the refrigerator. He meant to say "This one is in the refrigerator. The light is out, the jello is jiggling and the Easter eggs are getting hard."
Instead what came out was "This one is in the refrigerator. The light is out, the jello is jiggling and the Easter Bunny is getting hard."
Professional that he was, Chick and Stu were silent for awhile, then just picked up where they left off.
Happy Easter to Chick and Stu, the Lakers and the world's best bloggers (AK, BK and the gang)! This blog is a real pleasure to read every day, thanks to all of you.
Tom
Posted by: Tom Daniels | April 12, 2009 at 07:14 AM
Defense will be the defining issue for the Lakers in the playoffs.
This team's biggest weakness is a fondness for steals over solid position defense - Bryant, Ariza and Farmar spring to mind. When one guy overplays or gambles it throws off the whole defense, and puts the team in a help situation. When 2 or 3 guys on the floor do it, it is playground ball vs. an NBA offense.
It is the defensive equivalent of the pullup 3. It feels good, but it isn't. It works sometimes but it is a bad percentage play. Ariza and Bryant could be great defenders if they were less prone to overplaying. You can create turnovers with good solid team defense.
Watch Kobe away from the ball on D, playing a couple of steps too far off his man to get in the passing lane and throwing the whole defensive off balance. He does it surprisingly often for such a smart player. Watch Ariza overplaying and even reaching against guys who can drive around him. It just ain't smart.
The Lakers have the horses to play tough smart, tough team D and have a few guys who can guard top players 1 on 1, (Bryant, Ariza, Bynum). But they need more discipline.
Posted by: Tom Daniels | April 12, 2009 at 07:35 AM
Off subject here but did you see how Utah tanked yet another game? and on their home court to boot. they have locked up the 8th spot, they want the Lakers. i was really hoping that we got Dallas in the 1st, as Utah will give us a very very tough series.
Posted by: PurpleHeart | April 12, 2009 at 08:07 AM
To add more on your perspective Dave M, if Lakers bench Farmar, he will not be motivated to play well in the playoffs and his trade price becomes unattractive. Whatever the plans are, Lakers should be fluid in playing all players based on what is necessary prescription to win games. We need Mbenga's defense while Bynum is finding his usual strength, we need Shannon speed to neutralize other PG's, therefore giving the right medicine for the ailment detected. Lakers defense has to be fortified, these are now the playoffs, you don't need those monstrous showmanship or grandstanding of pouring more points. It is plain common sense just win baby and move on.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | April 12, 2009 at 08:30 AM
Kobe, Fisher and Pau should be on the bench cheering for their teammates today. I don't think they will be motivated to play because their minds is more on playoff preparations. They should be fresh by next weekend, however it doesn't necessarily mean to declare vacation, be lazy taking siesta. Why not improve those FT %, get to the gym for more workouts for Pau, Kobe should not be missing those long jumpers or if not sure, he should not be taking them in the first place. By this time, Kobe should be aware of his importance to the team.
Those Lakers who will be playing on these meaningless games should carry the burden of representing the No. 1 team in the West. It would be sad if they lose these last two games under their management. Purple and gold wear it with pride and play with passion, just consider the idea that many NBA players today are willing to trade places with a Championship caliber team. Many fans of other teams are hating the Lakers badly like Butler, 101-32, blazerforlife, for Lakers have away a chunk of their own crowd, they could not accept of being Lakerized. Therefore, if they post their garbage in this blog, we don't have to entertain them and add more into it. LOL!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | April 12, 2009 at 08:47 AM
Dave M
I can see what you are saying.Point guard is the toughest position to learn and we have put alot into Farmar - there is nothing to lose by keeping him next year.That said, I have long felt he is not really the right guy for the team as it is.
What really concerned me (apart from his form before his injury) was his attitude.We have no way of knowing really what he is like and his attitude will probably determine his lakers future as much as his play but I'd be happier with a different type of point guard in his role (I understand that is easier said than done) we should be trying to round out our bench with vets rather than developing players generally.See how Farmar goes this playoffs and next season tho...
I cant help but think however that there are too many young inconsistent players on this team.You never really know what you are going to get from the key bench guys which can be pretty concerning.
Posted by: Kiwi | April 12, 2009 at 09:10 AM
So, am I supposed to root for the Celtics today?
I can't.
I just can't.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | April 12, 2009 at 09:14 AM
I've asked the question since the beginning of the blog.
Who are the "lockdown" point guard defenders? Fish says there aren't any. Agreed. I can stop asking.
We've volleyed the Lakers point guard defensive deficiencies around here for years. Laker guards, don't get to go back at Chris Paul and D Williams, exposing them on defense.
Fish is as good as any at guessing where guys are going. S Brown looks defensively promising. There are guards that are better than others but nobody can stop great ball handling guards from getting to where they want to go when the whistle blowers are watching.
Posted by: VMan | April 12, 2009 at 09:34 AM
Fisher can't cover Kidd
Fisher can't cover D. Williams
Fisher can't cover Roy
Fisher can't cover Parker
Fisher can't cover Mo Williams
Fisher can't cover Rondo
Hope Shannon Brown develops!
Posted by: opk3 | April 12, 2009 at 09:40 AM
Jon K: "So, am I supposed to root for the Celtics today?"
I've put the race for best record in the refrigerator already and won't even be watching that game. Instead, I'll be immersed in the sublime experience that is Sunday at the Masters. Watching Tiger and Phil paired together and hoping that Kenny Perry can bring it home for all us regular guys.
Posted by: lakers_sth | April 12, 2009 at 10:28 AM
Thirty2 - a couple guys to tab in the draft, Tyler hansbrough, undersized at 6-9 but a real competitor... also DeJuan Blair, even smaller at 6-7 but the guy's a super intense rebounder, very physical, decent shooter.
Posted by: dave m | April 12, 2009 at 10:56 AM
I think Shannon Brown has the capability to be a great defensive player. Combine him with Kobe, Ariza, Fisher and Bynum and you've got the makings of a great defensive team. They're certainly not there yet but they've got the potential.
Posted by: aztronut | April 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM
opk3,
I've seen Fisher shut down D. Williams numerous times, he typically gives him fits. Fisher is a very good defensive point guard but he gets burned like everyone else from time to time. Given the defensive constraints he's working under he usually does an excellent job.
Posted by: aztronut | April 12, 2009 at 11:20 AM
With the playoffs coming soon, some of the Lakers, can actually be auditioning for a roster spot for next year.
Next year, the Lakers base salary will be 74 million.
Not counting the following.
Trevor Ariza
Lamar Odom
Josh Powell
MBenga
Shannon Brown
How much can Dr. Buss afford to carry in this economy with already paying lux tax penalties?
Sacrifices will have to be made, some who can really help the Lakers might go. Its still too soon to make that judgement. Mitch and company might have to set up a Triage and decide who can they save.
New variables may come to play.
Perhaps we see another salary dump with Farmar going, if he is not productive.
Or Kobe resigning a new longer contract (like Duncan and Arenas) for less?
Or Lamar willing to take less than market value could be a great bargain, to good to pass up, for the Lakers?
Ariza's stock has gone up, the Lakers may not be able to match?
With LO and Ariza, it could be a Sophie's choice, we can afford only one?
Winning a Title and having a great Lakers future may help in all these decisions. I would have to think, who's contributions toward that, would weigh heavily, on who stays.
So, let the tryouts begin.
Posted by: Fatty | April 12, 2009 at 11:23 AM
So, am I supposed to root for the Celtics today?
I can't.
I just can't.
What do we play for? RINGS!!!!!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | April 12, 2009 at 09:14 AM
I'm with you Jon K. Home court advantage be damned; no way I am cheering for Boston.
Posted by: The Snake | April 12, 2009 at 11:23 AM
The problems players have with defense these days is correlated to the problems the refs seem to have in anticipating calls. As Fisher says about the "appearance" of being physical on defense. Hyperactivity is not a foul and the refs need to wait for the contact to actually happen before making a call and not worry so much about keeping the game under their control.
Posted by: aztronut | April 12, 2009 at 11:28 AM
Great day.
Go Kenny Perry, Go Navy Seals, Go Capt Phillips,
Go Lakers
Posted by: VMan | April 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM