Interesting discussion on officiating: Rooks vs. Vets
We spend a lot of time as basketball fans talking about whistles, particularly those directed (or not) towards the local squad. On this site, folks complain that Kobe never gets a call. On others you can read how he gets every call. Some of that is the nature of partisanship, but much comes from the culture of basketball, in which the role of officiating is at once incredibly vital, generally inconsistent, and a constant focal point for fans and media alike. That it's the hardest of the mainstream sports to call accurately given the size, speed, and strength of the participants, makes it that much tougher to put the refs on the back burner.
That's what makes this post I ran across at 3 Shades of Blue (the top flight Grizz blog... thanks to Ball Don't Lie for the tip) an interesting read, in which moderators from other cool hoops blogs (Upside and Motor, With Malace, T'Wolves Blog, Bust a Bucket) were asked about one of the great perceived inequities of NBA officiating (summarized below- the actual question had a few more levels to it):
Is there in fact a hierarchy of Rookies, Veterans and Superstars, a three-tiered system that determines which calls you will get at any given point in a game?
I think almost everyone agrees the answer is yes, but the question is why.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature. Even after the revelations of Tim Donaghy, I don't believe the NBA is fixed. I don't think David Stern pulls strings from his office to try and get certain results. (Was he happy the Lakers and Celtics made it to the Finals last year? Yes. Did he manipulate the system to make it happen? No.) Yes, there is a disparity between how games are called for rookies and veterans, for scrubs and superstars. But rather than looking for evil machinations to explain it, I think it's a matter of human nature. Writes Jon from the T'Wolves Blog:
Every year, players seem to get quicker, and I've no doubt that the game gets more difficult to officiate every year as well. Fifty years ago, referees may have been able to "call 'em like they saw 'em," but now I suspect it's true that refs have to "call 'em like they think they saw em."And so I would suggest that, while part of the difference between "veteran" and "rookie" calls is ingrained bias - there are almost certainly officials out there who want to make young players "earn it" - part of the difference also is simply because of familiarity. After refereeing 150 games involving Kevin Garnett - and watching him take hundreds if not thousands of turnaround fallaways on the baseline - it has to be easier for a ref to notice when a defender commits a foul on that jump shot. If Kevin Love takes that same shot, that ref simply won't have that same frame of reference, and might miss a violation.I see that I seem to be defending referees at all time, which isn't necessarily my intent. When refs intentionally call the game two different ways, just because one player's a veteran and one isn't, that's patently ridiculous. But I think we need to separate that bias from the natural, if unfair, prejudice that refs will have for veteran players.
That human influence extends to skill sets. When deadeye shooters miss by three feet on a contested shot, the assumption often is that they were fouled. Bricklayers don't get that whistle. Great ball handlers get whistles when they lose their grip, while Mark Madsen doesn't.
It also applies to teams as a whole. Yes, the Jazz tend to pile up foul calls, but given that on a nightly basis Utah pounds on the opposition like they're trying to forge iron, it's a miracle they don't get five or six guys disqualified a game. Squads that build a reputation for aggressive play will get more calls, because referees are conditioned to anticipate contact. Teams that sit back passively won't get the same benefit.
The moral of the story? Force the issue, and do it consistently.
BK
Rooks vs. Vets
True unless your name is Kobe Bryant.
Still hard to believe he doesn't get the calls inside.
Perhaps if he just drove without all that contortion he might get some calls ala Dwayne Wade, but it's a lot safer to do it his way.
Posted by: You Ever Notice | December 17, 2008 at 05:32 PM
"But I think we need to separate that bias from the natural, if unfair, prejudice that refs will have for veteran players."
Jon from the T'Wolves blog has the definitions for "prejudice" and "bias" mixed up; "bias" is simply a predisposition toward a particular attitude or action, whereas "prejudice" is commonly associated with a prejudgement toward a particular situation.
In other words, a "prejudice" has more to do with one's (by definition, usually incorrect) opinions after a certain amount of introspection, whereas a "bias" has more to do with one's tendencies (not necessarily erroneous) before even having attempted to make a justification for one's opinions or actions.
Posted by: Schlieren | December 17, 2008 at 05:58 PM
In any endeavor, whether it be flying, driving, playing sports, or reading, the natural tendency is for people to "see what they expect to see." Think how many times a quarterback throws a pass towards a receiver, without noticing the linebacker positioned in plain sight, right in between the QB and the WR. You need to be constantly aware of this tendency, or you will fall prey to it. Some people are better at this awareness than others; as you noted, as you grow more familiar with something (i.e. a ref with Kevin Garnett's shot) this tendency grow stronger.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | December 17, 2008 at 06:06 PM
I happen to be a professional soccer referee, as well as (of course) a Lakers fan, so maybe I can give a bit of an officiating perspective on this.
Many times referees make calls to keep games fair, not to enforce the letter of the law. This is especially true for higher levels of competition where play is much faster, fouls are much harder, and fouls are more frequent.
Soccer has a huge advantage over basketball for referees in that in Soccer the official is explicitly expected to allow play to continue if it's to the advantage of the fouled team to do so. I think part of the problem with NBA refs is that they are expected to manage the game by not blowing the whistle on every single possession of the game (and in many games they could), but they aren't given explicit guidance from the rulebook on exactly what it's ok to let go and what must be called.
So in the NBA to whistle or not turns into a judgment call by the official based not just on the rules in the book, but also:
1. The physicality level of the game. If a team is playing rougher, the official will tend to call only harder fouls with the idea that they don't want to stop the game so much. The trap for the officials in this is that if every time a team played that way they heard a whistle on every play, it's take them maybe one quarter to adjust their play and they'd never play another game like that. The other unfair part is that if two teams are playing at different "intensity" levels, if you call the game looser you penalize the team that is playing closer to within the rules. That's not exactly the ideal outcome if you're supposed to be making things fair by penalizing rule breaking.
2. The player skill levels involved. Kobe IS going to get fouled a lot more than anyone else on the Lakers. That's because not only does he have the ball a lot, but because he has the skill to blow past defenders, make crazy shots after he's hit, etc... The officials see that happen and while the exact same foul on Rad causes him to miss, Kobe makes it and doesn't seem all that put out by it. The officials will tend to react to that in a combination of adjustments. They will call less fouls against people defending Kobe (because as we all know, they could call a foul on just about every drive to the basket) and then they will compensate by letting Kobe get away with a little more. It's that little more that a Mark Madsen will never get away with and that people complain about.
3. Cheatin' experience. Veteran players learn how to cheat better over the years. They learn exactly how far certain officials will let them go. Whether it's the leg kick-out, the slight hook on the turn, or the grab as someone goes past them, they know what get's called and what doesn't. They also know the angles that the refs are watching from and what they're watching for from each position and have figured out what they won't either see or call. If one officials responsibility is to watch the three point line to make sure a shot is a two or a three, a veteran player knows that they can get away with a subtle grab or push underneath with his back blocking out the other two officials because the third one is too busy watching the 3-point shooter's shot location on the floor and arms. That third official can't also watch the players blocking out under the basket.
4. Rookies are slow and clumsy and officials know that. Slow and clumsy players are much more frequently a little late on what they're trying to do and thus commit a foul. Officials know this. Experienced officials watching a game can tell you based on each player's demonstrated tendencies exactly where fouls are most likely to happen. You might say that an official should look at every game situation fresh each time, but in order to catch more calls live at high speed, officials must learn to anticipate fouls and watch for them. If a certain rookie has hacked their opponent twice already, you can be sure the third one is getting called even if it's close because the official is expecting that rookie to do it again in the same way. I can be officiating a soccer game and predict some fouls 5-10 seconds ahead of time. Officials get really good at reading the flow of the game. I'm sure that if there is a fast break one-on-one with an attacker that is a lousy free-throw-shooter, most nba officials (likely out of position on that play) are going to be expecting the defender to foul in order to send that player to the line. Don't be surprised if in that situation you're more likely to see an early call.
5. The game is really fast. What looks easy to call on tv replay isn't nearly as easy to call in person. Officials only get one shot at it. If they aren't sure, they shouldn't blow the whistle. That can lead to fouls that aren't called when an official's angle is blocked out by another player passing through, or it can lead to phantom calls when an official breaks the rule about being sure, because the "think" there was a foul based on LeBron missing a layup.
Anyway, that's my perspective.
Posted by: Sharper | December 17, 2008 at 06:47 PM
As a referee, I deplore much of the officiating in the NBA. The reason they don't get the calls right is because of poor positioning (I have NO clue what they are taught, because the trail ref is ALWAYS too shallow and is in the middle of the play) and they don't run up and down the sideline like they should.
It's a fact that it's easier to make a call when someone is driving to the basket (especially when the lead official) - the action is coming directly towards you, so you can see what's happening. It's much harder (at least from a justification standpoint) to call an on-the-ball foul when you're the trail official.
It would be refreshing to see the officials strive to get the best position on every play. Unfortunately, I don't see that enough when watching these games.
As far as a rookie/vet/superstar bias, I believe that there is an inherent bias, especially with so many former NBA players (who are now sportscasters) stating that people have to 'earn it'. There's no 'earning' a foul (at least there shouldn't be) - either someone is fouled, or someone is not. People can 'draw' fouls, but there really isn't anything to be earned. That's one thing that I really detest about the NBA - besides the lack of transparency.
Anyone know how to get their hands on an official NBA rulebook (no matter what the previous year?) I'd love to give more insight from my time as a referee and compare that to the NBA rule book.
Posted by: Caliphilosopher | December 17, 2008 at 06:47 PM
EXPLETIVE, EXPLETIVE, EXPLETIVE, EXPLETIVE!!!!
Why cant the Hawks put the Cs away? Hawks should have beaten the Cs twice now! I was so happy when Rondo CHOCKED that free throw but unfortunately Johnson choked more. I guess the Hawks to the Cs are the Kings to the Lakers, just can't beat em.
One thing I noticed during the game, Hawks got quite a few offensive rebounds. Bynum is going to PUNISH the Cs on Christmas.
8 days until redemption...
GO LAKERS
Posted by: mrbarneydangles | December 17, 2008 at 06:54 PM
It really has nothing to do with rooks and vets.
Lebronze has been grabbing the ball and travelling to the hoop time after time ever since his first nba game, and he never got called for it. Kobe on the other hand gets battered half way to death every time he has the ball, and he gets a fould barely 1 out of every 10 times, and he's a 12 year veteran.
Do I even need to mention D-wade and the 06 finals?
I just watched the celtics vs. hawks game, and i dont know what the big deal is, they barely beat atlanta. . . again. They also barely beat Utah (withouth Boozer) 2 days ago. To say the truth I'm not impressed at all. True they hold oppenents to less than 90 pts, but it really isnt that superior of a defence, it's just they manage to slow the pace of the game close to a halt. They're not scoring that many points either. The only area I think they're better than the lakers is discipline; like everybody says they play with intensity for 48 minutes.
The way I see it is that the Celtics are playing their best B-ball, the lakers are not even close to their full potential, but the C's are only 1 game ahead in the records.
Posted by: LAKERDAWG | December 17, 2008 at 07:10 PM
Why can't there be a few more officals involved?
Say 5?
Posted by: busterjonez | December 17, 2008 at 07:10 PM
mrbarneydangles - LOL. Johnson tightened up big time on the potential game tying free throw. I thought Atlanta had a great mindset for the game. They played with a nice intensity the entire game but got "the fear" down the stretch.
Posted by: lakers_sth | December 17, 2008 at 07:10 PM
It would be nice if we could get current Refs perspectives on the games and how they are called. But as we all know, they are more private than Supreme Court Justices.
The NBA in its new openness policy has a show to explain the Refs position, hosted by Ronnie Nunn. His arrogance in explaining the rules (Refs don't make mistakes, they are as infallible as the Pope) only serves to cause more doubt and ask more questions.
The NBA, where amazing and surprising calls will always happen.
Posted by: Fatty | December 17, 2008 at 07:18 PM
Wow, Clippers are beating the Bulls...
Posted by: Anna in Bondi | December 17, 2008 at 07:22 PM
LAKERDAWG
Think about it. The C's have won an impressive 16 in a row, and have one of the best starts in NBA history, yet.........
The Lakers are only one game back in the loss column.
Pretty good for a team just jogging along, yet to find our rhythm.
Posted by: Fatty | December 17, 2008 at 07:30 PM
The 4 game road trip will decide home court advantage.
Why?
The Cs will arrive xmas day with 2 loses.
If the Lakers lose once on the road:
The Cs will smell blood.
A Lakers loss on the road= 4 loses.
A Celtics win on xmas day=3 game lead for home court.
A healthy Cs team with 3 game lead=NBA finals repeat.
That's why the Ls to the Kings and Pacers were huge.
The moment of truth has arrived, my friends.
The Lakers will have to man up (4 road victories).
Home court (and KB24's legacy) is on the line.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | December 17, 2008 at 07:39 PM
131-92...Do those numbers ring a bell, Laker fans?
Looks like you`re still having trouble coping with the team Kobe refers to as the "Barometer".
Well, Xmas is only a week away.
This time, please, for the love of God...take it like a man!
C`s The Day!!!!
Posted by: RED`S LOVE CHILD | December 17, 2008 at 07:47 PM
Can we stop reporting Pierce is hurt?
Every time....ooohhh no....Pierce injured his knee!!!
Then, he's OK...Pierce is dropping fadeaways...
Ridiculous!
Posted by: Korey | December 17, 2008 at 07:48 PM
I hate all this talk from Bynum about his playing time in the 4th and Farmar complaining about what his role is. You have players on the Celtics crying because he didn't play well(yeah, probably because he got yelled at too), and on this side, we have Lakers players who have not established anything substantial in this league chirping about wanting to play during crunch time and cry baby Farmar. Bynum was in at the end of the game and he didn't do much rebounding on defense. There was a crucial play with the Lakers up by 2 and he couldn't grab the rebound and the Knicks scored an easy layup. Farmar looks lost out there. He needs to be traded, but I doubt that anyone that the Lakers would want, would want him.
Posted by: DT | December 17, 2008 at 09:08 PM
Busterjonez -
The problem with 5 officials on the floor is trying to work out:
1) the rotations that the officials go through when the ball goes from one side of the floor to the other. Not rotating enough leads to one watching the game (as a spectator) instead of officiating the game.
2) trying to figure out which official has precedent over the other when making calls in areas that overlap (such as in the paint area)
Hope that helps! Good idea though. :-) You might need something like that if they ever enlarged the court (like the large number of officials that the NFL/College Football has due to the size of the field).
Posted by: Caliphilosopher | December 17, 2008 at 09:11 PM
Sharper - that's a great, informative post. Thanks.
Posted by: dave m | December 17, 2008 at 09:12 PM
How come Javaris keeps getting DNP's? Can anyone give this kid a chance specifically at least 10 minutes of pt.?Jordan Farmar, you should cherish your position because I'm really hoping the Lakers will be able to get JC back. I heard that in the Pau deal, the Lakers were trying to give up Vlad instead of JC, anyone else hear this?
Posted by: never | December 17, 2008 at 09:16 PM
Fatty,
Exactly. . . We're just jogging along right now and we have the second best record, only a game behind the first. Imagine when this team start playing to its potential (and they can). . . The rest of the league should be very afraid.
Boston's record and streak do not impress me though. I'll start worry if they're ahead of us in june
Posted by: LAKERDAWG | December 17, 2008 at 09:22 PM
RED`S LOVE CHILD,
"This time, please, for the love of God...take it like a man!"
Wanna call in a wheelchair for me then?
Posted by: EJK | December 17, 2008 at 09:27 PM
Too bad by posting as that Mr. Love Child that you are just disgracing Red's memory.
Remember Red himself was carried by Bill Russell who is one of the top 5 NBA Players of all time and yes greater than Paul Pierce or even Larry Legend.
And before you can make that pathetic excuse of "Well Red developed Bill while Jackson had Jordan", don't try it, Russell showed his greatness even before by winning 2 National Championships at San Francisco State (which didn't even have its own basketball gym). Heck Bill's college accomplishments even surprasses Michael Jordan's college accomplishments who only won 1 National title and that was because he was paired with the Lakers own Big Game James Worthy and going to North Carolina which was a major basketball program (Hansborough will be good only at college not the NBA).
And Bill Russell showed even more his greatness by being a player coach and leading the Celtics to two more titles without Red!
And the only time besides when Chamberlain's 76ers beat Russell that Russell failed to win the title was because Russell had an ankle injury and the Celtics lost!
Red wants to criticize Jackson by being on already talented teams? Well Red himself was carried by Bill Russell! So much delusional and senile Red was in his last years by taking credit away from where it is due!
At least Bill admitted he was wrong about Wilton Norman Chamberlain!
-blitz
Posted by: kobeblitz | December 17, 2008 at 09:44 PM
UH-OH!
Oh Jon K! Oh Eric M! And that includes you Long Time Laker Fan (and maybe Hobbit hehe)
http://tinyurl.com/3eg2sw
"Lakers' Jordan Farmar seeks clarity about his role"
"By Tuesday night, Farmar seemed disgruntled, the telling sign coming when Jackson yanked him out of the game against New York 4:01 into the fourth quarter and the 6-foot-2 point guard stormed off the court and exchanged words with his coach."
On Wednesday after practice, Farmar sounded more disillusioned about his role when he talked about his meeting in Jackson's office at the team's practice facility.
"He didn't call me up there, I asked to talk to him -- to vent," Farmar said. "Just trying to get some things across."
Now it is Jordan? Should we not be surprised? It wasn't like the other things that happened recently like Lamar Odom's drama. He was being sent on the bench which is basically almost a demotion even if the intention is good. He managed to accept it in the end. It isn't even like Bynum's rant about not being at the end of games. Had Bynum not played better defense at the end of games on the pick and rolls (why didn't he learn how to defend against it earlier in games though?) PJ would have not hesitated to put Powell at center or perhaps even Mihm. Yet Bynum prevailed and now it is to Farmar.
The stats speak for themselves:
"Farmar, who is averaging 19.7 minutes a game this season, is shooting only 39.5% from the field and 32.8% from the three-point arc, well below his career averages."
That is Jordan being soft. It all starts with his pathetic defense. When opposing point guards bust through him he tries to get back to them and score and he's not nearly as talented as elite point guards....and that hurts the 2nd unit's offense. No Trevor, No Sasha (who busted out of his slump again thanks to running the offense instead of the Jordan Farmar way), No Lamar, not even Bynum is involved. Only when Pau or Kobe is in to settle down the 2nd Unit do they look okay at most when Jordan Farmar is on the floor.
Current December Stats of Farmar:
5.8ppg on 33.9% (Wow that's bad) 1.3apg (that's it from a PG??) , 33.3 from 3 point land, 57.1% from the free throw line (and he calls himself a guard!). And those don't even describe his horrible defense.
And he is complaining?? Venting?? Of the crap that he did and trying to make his point about he doesn't like it when his Coach is telling him to be more precise in his passing/shooting. Who does he think he is? He is the one who basically gave 6 free points to the Knicks.
"Jackson is not trying to stifle Farmar's creativity, but he wants the 22-year-old Farmar to be a better decision-maker."
Luke at this rate will average more assists than Jordan will. So much for the notion that Farmar wants to keep his teammates involve, again his only me attitude. And ever notice when Sasha is with Kobe instead of Farmar that he shoots better? That's how much faith Sasha has with Kobe finding him rather than the me-first attitude of Jordan Farmar.
If Farmar continues to act this way.....maybe J-Critt again is available? If we can get him it won't be like if Jordan will be too lonely. He'll have another LA product, Gilbert Arenas to be with and shocking as it may sound both their styles are so the same except Gilbert is way more talented than Jordan is.
-blitz
Posted by: kobeblitz | December 17, 2008 at 10:16 PM
I LOVE THE LAKERS!
Lakers Today... Lakers Tomorrow... Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | December 17, 2008 at 10:27 PM
Non calls influence the game at least as much, if not more, than calls...players attack them rim in the first...hacked repeatedly with no calls...it's human nature to stay outside and put up Js...the snakebite foul is another example...when a defender realizes he's not getting called repeatedly, he does it more...doesn't take much pressure on the elbow to throw a shot off...
http://tinyurl.com/5br7qj
Posted by: christopher blake | December 17, 2008 at 10:29 PM
I think Kobe does get fouled a lot and it mostly doesn't get called. I think some of that is his problem because when he is in the lane, he mostly tries to avoid contact. He does the opposite when he's shooting from the outside trying to draw contact. Many players do that. If you look at guys like Pierce, even when he's driving in, he tries to draw contact. Nate Robinson did this against Bynum late in the 4th to get two free throws, and Fisher did the same thing against Lee a few plays later. Kobe doesn't do this as much. I think that as he gets older, and slower, he'll probably take this type of approach as well.
Also, because Kobe gets fouled almost every single time, I think refs have a hard time calling it all the time. It's like how refs had such a hard time calling fouls on Shaq in the past.
As for all those Laker fans thinking how great they only have 3 losses, that would be great except that Celtics have only 2 losses. Granted, they got lucky a few times winning close games, and also playing Utah without Boozer, and NO without Chandler, but they are better than the Lakers right now. So it's like the Lakers are the 2nd best swimmer in the Olympics this year breaking all the records so far, but the Celtics are Michael Phelps.
Unless one Pierce, Garnett, or Allen get hurt, there's a good chance that they'll do better than 72-10. I counted about 9 games that they have left this year where they have a legitimate chance of losing. They probably will be favored in about 6 of them. If they lose 3, that's 5 losses only. I doubt that in the other 50 games against really bad teams, they'll lose more than 10% of these games.
On the other hand, the Lakers have about 18 games where they have a legitimate chance of losing. Assuming that they win 2/3 of these, that's 6 more losses. That means that they can't ever lose against crappy teams to get to 71-9. But at best, looking at this team, they will win 90% of those games.
I think Celtics finish 73-9, Lakers 66-16.
Not to say that the Celtics will be a guarantee for the Championship. I think the sweetest thing will be if the Celtics break the record but lose to Atlanta or Cleveland in the playoffs. Pats going 16-0 and losing in the SB was one of the most satisfying games I've seen in my life.
Posted by: DT | December 17, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Fatty-
I know, its awesome. They are getting all the attention but we are winning as well, we have just "paced" our wins out instead of winning 16 in a row. And if the Hawks weren't such a choke the Cs would have 4 losses. We will for sure get it together by April.
I just can't stand to watch Garnett and Pierce scream every time they score like they are playing the lead role in a horror movie. Oh yea, and Big Baby crying like a little baby was a pleasure to watch.
Highlight of my night. Perkins getting an And 1 and screaming like he's some macho man then having Josh Smith DUNK ALL OVER HIM in the next minute and watching him shrivel up in to a little ball while Smith roams around with his chest out (even the ESPN guys were saying how bad it was for Perkins) hahahaha.
8 days until redemption...
GO LAKERS
Posted by: mrbarneydangles | December 17, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Two last points...
We get League Pass, and have for the last few years...we watch lots of games, not just the Lakers...I have to say that the quality of officiating has been in steady decline league-wide for at least the last five years...maybe more...it's easy for me to be dispassionate watching a game that doesn't involve the Lakers, and when I do...the officiating is, at best, very uneven...no real consistency to calls...
Finally, about conspiracies in the League...obviously, if David Stern got together with refs and told them to call a certain game a certain way, that would be a conspiracy...but...if I know Ref "A" has a history with a certain player or coach, and Ref "B" tends to call games tighter or looser, and Ref "C" has rabbit ears...is it a conspiracy if I make sure they ref certain games against/for certain teams in crucial situations?
If I have dug the channels correctly...I don't need to be there when the water is let loose to know exactly where it's going to go...
Posted by: christopher blake | December 17, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Watched the last 6 minutes of the ATL BOS game and almost had a coronary. OMg why oh why did Joe have to choke? Garnett was just too good that 4th quarter.
And I have to say, I absolutely HATE Boston. HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE them.
C'mon Lakers - let's get it started.
GO LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: longtimelakerlover | December 17, 2008 at 10:29 PM
blitz,
You'd rather have Crit than Farmar? I thought last year that Crit would have greater upside than Farmar. Crit just had a good feel for the game and seemed like a natural PG.
What I've always like about Farmar is his confidence and mental toughness. But you're right, the guy's been playing like he belongs back in college. I think he'll get it back together in time, at least on the offensive end.
Posted by: EJK | December 18, 2008 at 12:03 AM
RED'S LOVE CHILD,
I can see you have superior math skills and memory...Excellent display of learning using "tunnel" vision. That was LAST June. This is a NEW season.
The BIG question for your Greenies will be this going forward: Can they learn how to DEFEND their title with DIGNITY and RESPECT ALL THE WAY? KG is talking smack all of a sudden and going down on all 4's irritating 6'1 guards...Not necessary...Needs to pick on somebody his OWN SIZE...He sure as heck didn't do that in Minnesota after so many years of FAILURE. Hmmm...
Rest assured, they are going to find that out the hard way, especially come February through April when teams are going to challenge them at ALL costs for playoff qualification and positioning. That's just the way it is...What "goes around, comes around." We shall see... BTW, can you PLEASE tell posterboy Pierce to stop FAKING knee injuries! Unreal!
Getting back to the HEART of the matter, let me throw an ACCURATE number for you to think about concerning Kobe: 3!
That 3! is the NUMBER of championships Kobe has WON in his career.
On the other hand, the big three of KG, Pierce and Allen have only ONE! Each guy finally won one after 10+ years in the league...Obviously, they are STILL short thus far! It's all about the RESUME...
Congrats to your Boston Celtics for their excellent play throughout the season and winning the championship in June.
Don't be fooled, we all took it in stride as Lakers fans, as the end result was pretty emotional for us DEDICATED Lakers fans. No one likes LOSING... Human nature...Do you?
Despite the result, however, we have had many times of great joy in LA through the years (reaching playoffs, winning championships). I don't REMEMBER the Boston Celtics being a factor SINCE 1986. It took them 22 YEARS to finally WIN and be NOTICED in 2008! WAY TOO LONG in the book of basketball achievements...
Therefore, excuse our loyalty and PASSION for our team. Constructive criticism is ALWAYS good when sharing comments on a blog. Get my drift?
Speaking of LOYALTY, it will be interesting to see how Celtics fans react to adversity when their team goes through a funk all of a sudden. Like I said, it's going to HAPPEN eventually...No team is SPARED! REAL injuries will happen, teams will ultimately CRACK each others schemes, and benches will be tested to the PEDAL (BTW, BOSTON SHOULD HAVE NEVER LET POSEY GO...)
Remember, there is a LOT more basketball yet to be played...Stranger things have happened...especially involving "wheelchairs." Have a nice day.
Laker pride through ALL and ANY ADVERSITY! Peace!
Posted by: Let's go L's! | December 18, 2008 at 12:08 AM
Farmar also said he has issues with the team's defensive concepts.
"I was trying to go out there and do what I was told. Every time I would do what they asked me to do, it seemed like it was the wrong thing at that time, the wrong choice. I'm just trying to figure it out and do what they ask me in any capacity, whatever it is," Farmar said.
"I didn't create this, this is all their doing," Marbury said of his status as a nonplayer with the Knicks despite being under contract for more than $21 million."
Notice any similarity?
Attribution theory divides the way people attribute causes to events into two types.
"External" or "situational" attribution assigns causality to an outside factor, such as the weather.
"Internal" or "dispositional" attribution assigns causality to factors within the person, such as their own level of intelligence or other variables that make the individual responsible for the event.
When one succeeds, one attributes successes internally (”my own skill”). When one fails or makes mistakes, we will more likely use external attribution, attributing causes to situational factors rather than blaming ourselves.
Posted by: LakerinBC | December 18, 2008 at 12:08 AM
What is going on with the Jazz?
http://tinyurl.com/52aswz
I'm not surprised by Boozer's comments b/c of what he pulled on the Cavs but the timing of him saying it is strange. They're just getting healthy and are still an upper echelon team.
Here's a question for the blog. LO for AK47 straight up? I'd do it tonight. Wouldn't think twice about it. Him, his defense, fat contract and open-minded girlfriend are welcome on the Lakers as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by: lakers_sth | December 18, 2008 at 12:08 AM
We can take this Celtic team down, but we need to upgrade our metallurgy. We can't keep fighting with bronze spears and wicker shields when the Hittites (as it were) are using iron.
We need to upgrade the "big 3" I am convinced that Bynum will be awesome in a few years, and possibly the leagues best in 4 or 5. But for right now, we have to get another hot shooting, coldblooded, clutch, guard.
And I am so glad we play the Celtics on Christmas, I expect a loss and I expect that loss to be the genesis of some important roster move.
By the trading deadline the Celtics will be near every team winning record in NBA history and that might open our eyes as to the strength and determination of the enemy that considers us its number #1 target.
Damn it! Where is our Cooper? AC Green? Our Rambis? Our Michael Thompson or Byron Scott? These are the kind of defensive, tough and clutch players who imposed their near-marginal talent/athleticism on everyone without prejudice.
Can we get at least one other started who is 100% stone cold solid in the clutch?
For god's sake, we've got great pieces in Lamar and Farmar and decent ones in Walton and Mihm, we should be able to reload competently to better prepare ourselves for our real nemesis, though that battle remains a winter away.
Wes
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | December 18, 2008 at 12:08 AM
I really hate when the team starts having to do "meetings". That is just such a sign that there are fundamental problems. Even though Farmar went to HS and college in LA, he's never really struck me as an LA guy. In interviews, I just get the sense that playing for the Lakers doesn't mean anything to him. I don't need him to kneel at the statue of Magic, I just don't need to feel like he couldn't care less.
I think there are two things really affecting the mental health of this team. First, they made it to the big dance and lost. So, regardless of how much success they achieve, it's all empty b/c they feel like they could make it all the way and lose again. Second, the expectations are so high for this team, they can't even enjoy winning games anymore. Either these guys are going to fall apart or become stronger for it, but right now, their mental fortitude is being tested big time.
Character is so important. I was amazed at how great the chemistry seemed in the locker room but now that they've got some adversity in front of them, we're starting to see the cracks.
Posted by: lakers_sth | December 18, 2008 at 12:08 AM
I would love to throw those Showtime Lakers at the Celtic squad. That would be awesome to see.
I could not believe how tough that supposedly fitness team was. From A.C. Green' to Cooper to Michael Thomson to Magic and Worthy with the oldest, slowest guy doing all the clutch shooting. Wow.
Also, I think the West is absolutely, 100%, the inferior conference now with best teams being the Celtics, Lakers, Cleveland, Pistons, Spurs (maybe), Magic and Hawks, though the Nuggets are changed for the better and the Hornets and Rockets are supposed to be good, but I wonder.
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | December 18, 2008 at 12:08 AM
i've been trying to catch up on lakers blog posts tonight, as i've been away again for a while. thanks mamba, for adding me to the anti-boston bandwagon.
wow, i wasn't aware Farmar's #s were so bad this season. thanks for that update, blitz.
i noticed a lot of harping on the second unit, and who should be starting in recent posts. i also am concerned about the laker's defense, and if they can stop a team like Boston. but i have a feeling on Dec. 25, we'll see plenty of Odom and Ariza on Pierce. Phil might start Luke or Rad, but in crucial moments, i'm sure he'll go with defense on P.P. and quite frankly, i'm not that concerned with any other Celtic player. and Odom can be a good one one one defensive player. remember those times he shut-down Marion in the play-offs?
and as for Farmar, i'm concerned about him, but i will trust Phil and hopefully the team leaders (kobe, fish, lamar) can talk sense into farmar. and if he continues to struggle or won't play within the team concept, Phil will just reduce his minutes, and give them to someone that's dying to play (like Luke, Radman or more minutes to LO or Trevor or dare i say it... play Sun) (i know those guys play diff. positions, but you could have a SF move over to SG, and have Sasha guard the back-up PG, in limited minutes). worst case scenario: give some more minutes to Kobe (which i bet is happening in 4th qtrs).
Posted by: leonardbast | December 18, 2008 at 12:09 AM
lakers-sth,
"LO for AK47 straight up? I'd do it tonight."
No way. We don't need another player whose contract is way bigger than their game. AK47 is a really good defensive player, but his offensive game is suspect, particularly his outside shooting. Not to mention that I don't think he's the most mentally tough guy out there...I remember him breaking down and crying during a game.
Posted by: EJK | December 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM
>>>How come Javaris keeps getting DNP's?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe he doesn't quite live up
to our glorious expectations for him?
The road to NBA stardom is littered with point guards who were
overhyped coming out of college. Shaun Livingston, Mike Conley,
and Sebastian Telfair all come to mind. Not that any or all of those
guys can't be productive rotation players in the NBA, but each
was at some point hyped to be the next big thing.
Right now I give Critter & Sun Yue about equal odds of
succeeding at the NBA level, and I've seen about as much
play out of each of them.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
Farmar needs Javaris Crittenton. JC's presence was always reminding Farmar that his role may already be limited.
In all seriousness, I really do feel like the Lakers need JC. Farmar has now had a little over 2 years trying to prove himself. He got toasted by AI, Deron Williams, had a good showing in the Conference finals but disappeared in the Finals. I think the Lakers should start finding a new point guard soon considering Fisher's age and Farmar's inconsistency. I am not sold on Farmar at all. Crittenton's upside is way more than Farmar. I really believe had Crittenton been given the same amount of minutes as Farmar, he would have developed into a better player.
This point guard is consistently being burned on the defensive end, pushes the pace too much, jacks up shots, and questions his coach.
Let's face it, Farmar is becoming Smush Parker.
Posted by: never | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
*Damn it! Where is our Cooper? AC Green? Our Rambis? Our Michael Thompson or
Byron Scott? These ***are the kind of defensive, tough and clutch players who imposed
their near-marginal talent/athleticism on &*everyone without prejudice. BANDWAGON
*
(01) WESJOENIXON - DRIVER
(02) MAMBA24 – SUPPORT STAFF
Posted by: MAMBA24 | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
What's up everyone?
Is it just me when I say that I am not afraid of the Cavs at all? Other than Lebron there's nothing on that team that scares me, and Kobe can match Lebron, you might not think it now, but Kobe will be fresh later on in the season/playoffs. They've been beating up on far weaker competition in the east and seem to be playing their best basketball right now, something that I don't see them keeping up for the remainder of the season, whereas we haven't seen the Lakers' best yet (unless you count the start of the year, and that was much better than the Cavs' best shot.)
Also, I don't see any team this year breaking the 72 win mark, not even the C's. It's too hard, the Hawks are providing a blueprint on beating them and they'll slow down near the end of the season, count on it.
If the Hawks meet them in the playoffs again I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they took them to seven games/upset them. Not one bit.
Peace, two fingers.
-bozz-
Posted by: bozz | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
>>>LO for AK47 straight up?
If every player in the NBA made exactly the same money?
Or if Bill Gates was paying the salaries and didn't care if
the team lost money?
Maybe.
If the money was coming out of my pocket and it meant
spending an extra 7 million this year, and then he'd cost
me over 20 million next year (with luxury tax) and over
22 million the year after?
Not a chance.
AK makes 16.4 million next season and almost 18 million
the year after, and the Lakers are just a few million under
the presumed luxury cap both years.
Or let me put it this way. If you could have AK for the next
three years, or you could have BOTH Odom and Ariza for the
same amount of money, which would you take?
>I'd do it tonight.
>>>Wouldn't think twice about it.
Isaiah? Is that you?
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
To Kobeblitz : No argument about Russell...he`s the greatest ever! Only man to have more rings {11} than fingers{10}. KG has a lot of "Russell" in him. Leave it to Red to figure out a way to obtain Russ...just like he did with Bird, McHale, Parish, Cowens, Havlicek, Sam, Cousy, Jo Jo, etc.
By the way, who has Phil ever drafted or traded for? Oh yeah, no owner would ever trust his judgment to put together a team. It`s been 6 + years since Shaq gave him his last title.
C`s THE DAY!!!!
Posted by: RED`S LOVE CHILD | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
First off our defense is fine. At first because of our zone defense the Knicks lit us in the perimeter which D'Antoni's offense is designed for. When we switched back to man-to-man we did better on defense.
Even though many people will disagree,
Our starters are capable of winning a championship and it is a caliber team. The only problem? The attitude and the lack of defense coming from Jordan Farmar (who is allowing penetration like crazy) is really ruining the opportunities for us to blow out sub .500 teams. Now Derek may not be the best PG defender we have but he is very solid, moves laterally better, fights through screens better, does a good job at stealing at the right times, knows his role as a spot up shooter, and also while not the best assists guy, knows where to give the ball to. Wonder why his backup is not following his lead and instead making us win in spite of Farmar's play....
lakers_sth,
ever noticed that Farmar really only plays if the situation is bad? Happened in the title game at UCLA, then happened last year with the 3rd game against Phoenix (when Kwa-may Brown was booed), then happened in Game 2 (which he was partly responsible for the near comeback), Game 5 and Game 6 did he even have some good stats backing him. Farmar for some reason I think he is too arrogant in his belief that the Lakers will be built around him. Bynum is way more talented than him. If Farmar really wanted to be a Laker, he wouldn't be complaining about the system they run would he?
And no I wouldn't want an AK47 trade and here's why:
What happens if Pau Gasol again has another "strep throat' or Bynum is ill as well?
Last game proved it and Lamar showed that he is still a very good player. Lamar is a starter for most teams (well not teams like San Antonio and Boston who has really great power forwards) and having him as a backup only means so much more for this team, especially when things happen that a player may miss a game or so.
EJK,
I supported Farmar at first because one he is a fellow Bruin and two confidence was there and for a while I believed that his play was a true point guard. He was using his penetration correctly and trying to find Sasha a majority of the time which led to Sasha being even better. Plus he set tons of alley oops to Bynum and got him involved.
Farmar for a while was playing like a point guard despite his below average defense. In the playoffs especially against Utah, I thought the pressure got to him more so I thought this year he would be bringing an even more mental toughness and confidence in the offense/defense set to continue to mature.
So far he isn't doing it. He is too much on Trevor and himself and not enough on Sasha. Kobe loves having shooters and he passes it out a bunch to times to Derek/Sasha/Radman and well I don't like it when he passes it Trevor for a 3 pointer though it is a good attempt to bring confidence into any shooter. As a result of Farmar's greediness and ball hog attitude Sasha is suffering and it is really lowering down his play not to mention the 2nd Unit.
When PJ did the right thing and strip Farmar of his leadership of the 2nd Unit Farmar just gave up really. His performance declined, he isn't a avid stealer as he once was (which is good and bad), and his defense is just as bad as before if not worst. His jump shot has declined, and his wanting to find even Trevor has disappeared and he only became focused on himself. He basically gave the Knicks 6 points and he didn't seem to be upset too much at that compared to his venting at PJ during the game and after practice.
J-Critt I knew had bigger potential but I knew back in 2007 that Farmar had a better edge than Critt because Farmar knew the offense better. Now with Farmar's flaws exposed and him disgruntled combined with his me-first play I wouldn't mind J-Critt who I think had more skill, better defense (who didn't gamble as much), and simply a confident but not cocky attitude than Farmar. Heck he's been rottting in the bench yet I haven't really heard him really complain.
Imagine him and Bynum together, that would make the 2nd Unit so much better with a Unselfish guard like Javaris Crittenton and not a Ball Hogging, Me-First attitude, Soft mind and body, Jack up early shots, complaining because the offense is not what Jordan Farmar wants, don't want to play defense except for steals, the Lakers belong to me and not Bynum in the future, guard named Jordan Farmar. Sun could be better than Jordan in that he wants his teammates to be involved unlike the ball hogging Jordan Farmar. (you heard me Jon K.!)
"Jordan Farmar are you kidding me? Heck ship him out we had Javaris Crittenton but we had to give him up instead of that ball hogging Farmar and now instead we can't even enjoy our 2nd Unit helping the 1st Unit and b/c of him we are now in this messed up situation"
Might be a little harsh and different from KB's rant but heck Jordan is starting to become very much similar to Smush. Make no mistake I do want Jordan to succeed as Laker but until he gives up this me first attitude and complaining to PJ because he doesn't get to run the offense he wants (the Jordan Farmar offense) he will become a headache for the Lakers.
-blitz
Posted by: kobeblitz | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
"I was trying to go out there and do what I was told. Every time I would do what they asked me to do, it seemed like it was the wrong thing at that time, the wrong choice. I'm just trying to figure it out and do what they ask me in any capacity, whatever it is," Farmar said.
Farmar said that? Farmar?
Nah, that's got to be an old quote from Smush.
Posted by: p ang | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
[From the Az Republic]
The Suns are short one player for the league minimum of 13.
Last night, they were scouting and are contemplating bringing in……
Are you sitting down? Hold on to something, this is big, really big.
They are considering for Nash’s back up, the one and only…..
Can you guess?
Hint: “I be the floor general, whatever Riley wants me to be….”
That’s right………..Smush Parker!!!!!………..
hahahhahahhahahhahhahaahahahaha
There is a God and he’s justly sticking it to the Suns.
How bad has it got for the Suns? Even if they don’t sign him, just considering Smush must have Nash screaming for mercy.
“Why God have you forsaken me?!”
Fatty - This is too good to be true. THANK YOU Santa for the early Xmas laugh.
Posted by: Fatty | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
*UNCHAIN JOSH POWELL THE NEW ENFORCER – BANDWAGON*
*
(01) JON K. – Driver – We have an enforcer, Phil just won’t unleash him from the bench
(02) MAMBA24 – RIDING Shotgun1 – Unleash The Enforcer – Free Josh Powell 9Rings
(03) KEIFO - RIDING SHOTGUN2
(04) JUSTANOTHERMAMBAFAN – SECURITY
Posted by: MAMBA24 | December 18, 2008 at 08:09 AM
6 DAYS AND COUNTING TILL ARMAGEDON CHRISTMAS
WILL YOU BE THERE WHEN THE LAKERS TOTALLY ANIHILATE THE CELTICS
THE NBA WHERE CELTICS ANIHALATION HAPPENS
Posted by: MAMBA24 | December 18, 2008 at 08:10 AM
Only if the Jazz were willing to throw in Paul Millsap into the deal would I be willing to trade for AK47.
Trading LO for Mike Miller and Craig Smith wouldn't be a bad idea. We need consistent outside shooting to beat Boston's clog-the-lane defense and a physical frontcourt presence to bang around with Boston's fat boys.
I also wouldn't mind getting Nocioni, Noah, and Thabo from Chicago for LO and Mihm. I've always liked Nocioni's hard nose style. Thabo would be a nice addition to the backcourt for defensive purposes.
Posted by: EJK | December 18, 2008 at 08:10 AM