22-0 runs, they do come in handy: Lakers 108, Clippers 88
Like, seriously handy. Handy enough to overcome a first half with some lackluster play, as evidenced by the Lakers' 106-88 win over the Clippers. You wouldn't guess by just checking out the box score, but the game's first half featured a considerably closer contest. In fact, the Lakers actually drank their halftime Gatorade down four points, the results of some raggedy O and a pressing D often left vulnerable to primo red, white and blue ball movement. But life is often about trending upward and/or downward- the latter describes this supposed "rivalry" of late- and in the second half, both teams saw their current, respective trajectories continue in a path uninterrupted.
Issues putting the ball through the net were offset by strong work on the boards (Andrew Bynum tied a career best 17), strong work from Lamar Odom off the bench (15/9, 3 steals, 2 blocks) and a defense that turned increasingly relentless. Hence, a stretch of six minutes where the Clips were stuck at 81 points. In a game short often short on proficiency, when it mattered the most, the Lakers rediscovered the newly improved defensive identity they're looking to forge this season.
As Phil Jackson put it afterward, "We saved the best for last, so to speak."
OTHER NOTES
- Magic and Kareem talk Obama. So does ex-Laker Caron Butler, who also gives props to Kobe and the AI-Billups trade, a move considered by some to be a salary shed by Detroit for the goal of adding LeBron James in 2010. But is the Motor City actually a big enough market for the King? And in the meantime, Antonio McDyess was part of that trade and may not stay in Denver. Were that the case, would he join up with LBJ's current team?
- Big nights by Tony Parker and Amare Stoudemire are broken by stat guru John Hollinger and compared to other big nights (including 81).
- Six degrees of separation: Drew Gooden and Johnny Depp.
- Upon expressing his unhappiness in the Bay Area, Al Harrington isn't getting his typical PT anymore. But hey, it could be worse. Starbury isn't even dressing these days, an approach Mike D'Antoni doesn't plan on altering anytime soon.
zen,
"His athleticism has given him everything he has."
Except his passing. That's the one aspect of LeBron's game that impresses me: He's a good passer.
That's the one part of his game that makes him a good basketball player and not just a great athlete.
Lakers Today. Lakers Tomorrow. Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 12:34 PM
"the only thing the Big Malcontent can take over these days is a Sizzler Salad Bar. "
LOL! Man, I don't care who you are - that's funny.
Posted by: cscoot | November 06, 2008 at 12:51 PM
""What were the circumstances surrounding the loss? Can it be explained as a breakdown on the Suns part, or did the Hornets have a superior team that night?"
The Hornets beat the Suns by hitting a crazy 3-pt %, also because the Suns had 24 turnovers. CP had a big night as usual against Nash and Posey was clutch.
Posted by: BUTLER | November 06, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Considering LeBron is averaging 8 rebounds this year and seven on a career from the SF position, I think we can safely add "good rebounder" to the list of skills for this "average" player.
Seriously, people. Are we actually trying to make the claim that a guy who's nearly unguardable, sports some of the best all-around stats and skills in NBA history, has made strides on the defensive end (anyone who remembers how well he played Kobe last year at Staples knows this is true) and has carried some crap ass teams multiple playoffs rounds is "average?" Seriously?
You know what that sounds like? The same ridiculous nonsense MJ fanatics spout about Kobe being "overrated" because they hate the idea of anyone being in Jordan's stratosphere, particularly a player at the same position. To quote Jeremy Piven in the great-terrible movie "PCU"... "Don't be that guy."
Admitting LBJ is a great player (which is just plainly obvious) doesn't diminish Kobe's greatness in the slightest. There's room for more than one outstanding player in the league (even if he's an outstanding player still not as good as Kobe, as I believe). And be glad that's the case, because if there weren't, Kobe's greatness would ultimately be hollow. There's nothing particularly noteworthy about being the tops among a grouping of chumps.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 12:52 PM
puddle sez:
"What you meant I'm sure was an 11% difference in FG% and OFG%. Regardless, that's only one piece of the puzzle. What about turnovers? Rebounding? Pace? The Lakers are 1st point differential (+20.8 - the Suns are at +8.2), 1st in rebounding % (56.7% - Suns are 53.5%), 1st in defensive efficiency (73.3 - Suns are 92.1), and 1st in effeciency differential (+19.2 - Suns are +4.2). This won't hold up as we play tough teams, but this is a more complete picture of a team's efficency.
Suns look good. Can't wait for the 20th."
Nice breakdown and thanks fro the correction. Here's what I got from basketbawful.com:
"A few thoughts on the Suns: People who thought the Phoenix offense died when Mike D'Antoni walked out the door were sadly mistaken. Their scoring is down a few points this season, but they're still leading the league (106.4). They're also shooting a blistering 55.2 percent from the field. And, according to John Hollinger's team statistics, their effective field goal percentage is just over 60 percent. By contrast, their opponents are shooting only 44 percent...which gives them a whopping 11.s percent differential in FGP. That's five percentage points higher than the next best team (in terms of differential), which is Boston (at 6.0).
There's a lot of season left to play, but the early results seem to indicate that Terry Porter's more disciplined approach is making the Suns an even more efficient team. Now if they could only do something about those turnovers..."
Turnovers are indeed the problem right now, but I expect it to improve as the team is still getting used to the motion offense.
Posted by: BUTLER | November 06, 2008 at 12:58 PM
AK,
So are you saying that LeBron James is a clutch shooter and a game winner when things are tight?
Lakers Today. Lakers Tomorrow. Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 01:05 PM
AK,
Remember, the way that Zen and I are talking about LeBron James, we're not saying he's not a force to be reckoned with. We're primarily addressing the intangibles in his game, his surehandedness, and his drive to win in comparison to some other players out there.
It may feel like a childish "Jordan versus Kobe" kind of thing, but that's not where I'm coming from.
Lakers Today. Lakers Tomorrow. Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 01:08 PM
Jon K,
"So are you saying that LeBron James is a clutch shooter and a game winner when things are tight?"
Yeah, I think so, considering the Cavs have won a fair amount of games and LBJ's been at the center of about 99% of them. And according to the well respected 82games.com, his "clutch time" stats were the best in the league last year.
http://tinyurl.com/5m95h9
Has he specifically hit a ton of buzzer beating game winners? I haven't seen enough Cavs games to know for sure, but I also think that's a semi-BS way of measuring to begin with, because it discounts what may have taken place over the other 47.5 minutes that might prevent a game winner from being needed in the first place. The bottom line is that he's played well down the stretch of many games.
I don't know how anyone could watch LBJ absolutely carry the Cavs in that Bos-Cle game 7 last year and not have respect for the guy. The Cavs lost, but LBJ had literally no help whatsoever and kept them in it by himself against a better team. That's a winner in my book. And unless you considered Kobe a "loser" because of Phoenix in '06/'07 (as many of the circumstances were almost identical), it should be in yours, too.
Again, acknowledging this doesn't take away from Kobe (which I think is the #1 reason Laker fans resist). It's just being honest and objective.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 01:13 PM
maybe Lebron just hasn't had as much chances to nail the game winner as Kobe has.
give credit where credit is due. opposing scouting reports key in on Lebron... it's not like Sasha Pavlovic is a threat to drop a triple dub or a doulbe nickle on anyone, anytime soon....
Posted by: sixonezero | November 06, 2008 at 01:14 PM
AK,
As a member of the gulag of Cleveland, I've seen my share of Caviliars games. I'm not knocking LeBron James as an athlete. He's a PHENOMENAL athlete. Truly talented in that way. Truly so.
However, when it comes to a competitve fire that a player like Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, even Rasheed Wallace and Sam Cassell, maybe even Baron Davis... he doesn't have it. He just doesn't.
He really tries to feign that level of competitive fire and surehandedness during VERY close and important games because he knows it is expected of him, but... it just doesn't come natural to him.
He's not that guy.
Lakers Today. Lakers Tomorrow. Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 01:20 PM
Jon K,
"However, when it comes to a competitve fire that a player like Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, even Rasheed Wallace and Sam Cassell, maybe even Baron Davis... he doesn't have it. He just doesn't. He really tries to feign that level of competitive fire and surehandedness during VERY close and important games because he knows it is expected of him, but... it just doesn't come natural to him."
C'mon, man. You can't possibly believe that Rasheed Wallace, who routinely checks in and out of games mentally and is among the more unreliable players of his talent-level, is more competitive than a guy who carries his team more consistently. That's just not a defendable position. And Baron Davis has not only been willing to coast over a LOT of his career, he hasn't even been a given to stay in shape.
Having heard many of your LeBron criticisms in the past, I honestly think this is a case of you taking his "billionaire" aspirations, your personal dislike for him (plus the city of Cleveland) and applying a context that simply isn't true. Are you telling me LBJ didn't look competitive during last season's playoffs? Or in China with the Olympic team? That's just absurd. How exactly do you define "competitive fire," if that's the case?
I also noticed that among the players you cited, NONE of them play the same position as Kobe, making any direct comparisons beyond that harder to do. It reminds me a lot of how in '06, nobody got too upset when I made an argument for Elton Brand as MVP (whether they agreed with my take or not), but FLIPPED OUT when BK cited Dwyane Wade, who just happens to get compared to Kobe all the time. Coincidence?
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 01:30 PM
"People who thought the Phoenix offense died when Mike D'Antoni walked out the door were sadly mistaken"
Yep - it actually died right around the trade deadline last season.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | November 06, 2008 at 01:52 PM
Jon K,
Do you really believe LeBron's lack of rings (now or in the future) has more to do with him lacking "competitive fire" than his supporting cast being average or below since he entered the league?
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 01:54 PM
AK,
I want to make this clear: I AM NOT MAKING A KOBE VERSUS LEBRON JAMES ARGUMENT HERE. Not at all.
I've just watched a lot of Cavs games and spoken with a lot of Cavs fans.
Cavs fans run into two types: Delusional and reasoned.
Delusional Cavs fans (and from whom I gain much of my antipathy towards LeBron James) believe that LeBron James is a messiah-like figure who is not only the Greatest player of all-time, but will also be the Greatest player of all-time forever. He is unsurpassable in their minds.
Reasoned Cavs fans will watch the game with you in a balanced way and say, "LeBron's an amazing player and all, but he chokes. He defers when the game's on the line."
And this is true. I've seen it plenty of times. He doesn't have the edge that a lot of players have.
You make a good point about my use of Rasheed Wallace and Baron Davis. They do lack consistency, but they are also very competitive at times. They get worked up. LeBron never really gets that worked up and its not because he's levelheaded, it's just because he's not as competitive as a lot of professional athletes. When LeBron gets worked up, there's something disengenuous about his body language. It's like he's putting on a show.
Regarding me not citing players who play the same position as Kobe, you're reading into things too much, at least for this particular debate. I repeat, this is not a LeBron versus Kobe debate.
It's a critique of LeBron James' intangibles as a basketball player and his competitive fire as a potential "winner" within the personality of professional athletes.
You can disagree with me, but until LeBron James shows me something different than what I've witnessed with my own eyes, you're going to have a hard time swaying my opinion.
Lakers Today. Lakers Tomorrow. Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 02:04 PM
AK,
You make a great point. Lot of the Lakers fan are so in love with the team and our beloved Mamba, that we try to deny anything that might be a threat to Kobe in any sort of way. Anyone who thinks Lebron isn't a great player is just in plain denial. Just ask yourself this guys, if Kobe wasn't in the league today, and you had the choice of taking one player in his place from any team this season and put it on Lakers, who would it be? Lebron would win this in a LANDSLIDE. He is freak of an athlete, plays SOLID team defense, passing skills are great, rebounds great...things he is missing are three point shot, post up and some free throws issue. But to say he isn't a great player already is just plain denial and sounds very ignorant. Obviously, no one (other than lakers/kobe haters + cleveland) believes that he is better than Kobe, including Lebron himself. But he has ways to go and as time goes by, some of those weaknesses will be gone. Just like we were yelling a couple years back that people are missing out on greatness in Kobe by hating on him, lets not do the same for this once-in-a-lifetime type of athlete who could become one of the all time greats one day. Remember, just because you loved Magic, didn't mean we denied the greatness in Bird. I think the same scenario applies here.
Posted by: StaplesMamba | November 06, 2008 at 02:06 PM
AK,
"Do you really believe LeBron's lack of rings (now or in the future) has more to do with him lacking "competitive fire" than his supporting cast being average or below since he entered the league?"
No player wins (or loses) in a vacuum.
LeBron could be backed by a stronger cast. Yes.
If he was on the Lakers right now, would I feel confident that he'd win a ring this year? Ummm... YEAH!
I just don't see him making decisions over his career based first upon an undying thirst for winning. Winning may be important for him, but I don't see it as the pentultimate factor in his decision making. Thus, I don't see the potential for his career as a Champion to be as great as for some other players.
I mean, the general assumption here in Cleveland is that he's going to leave Cleveland to go to the Nets or the Knicks.
Why would a player driven by a compulsive desire to win go play for the Knicks or the Nets right now?
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 02:12 PM
Jon K,
If you claim it's not a "LBJ v. Kobe" thing, I'll take your word for it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the other areas of debate. But you even admitted that some of your opinion is based on disgust towards LBJ fans in Cleveland, whose opinions are totally irrelevant when it comes to how LeBron actually plays. If you watched LeBron's games regularly, but in, I don't know, Delaware, do you think you'd feel the same way?
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 02:13 PM
AK,
By the way, I really like Dwayne Wade. He's a winner.
Lakers Today. Lakers Tomorrow. Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 02:18 PM
Lebron James is a stud, a phenom, and one of the absolute best in the game. If he is one of the best just because of his amazing athleticism, then so what? I dont think the NBA rules have an athleticism limit. I personally am not a fan of his and everytime i watch him play i keep hoping he scores 5 points and 2 rebounds which never happens. But im a realist and know that it is what it is which is lb24 is a baller.
Posted by: kene_slow | November 06, 2008 at 02:20 PM
Jon K,
"I just don't see him making decisions over his career based first upon an undying thirst for winning. Winning may be important for him, but I don't see it as the pentultimate factor in his decision making. Thus, I don't see the potential for his career as a Champion to be as great as for some other players. I mean, the general assumption here in Cleveland is that he's going to leave Cleveland to go to the Nets or the Knicks. Why would a player driven by a compulsive desire to win go play for the Knicks or the Nets right now?"
LeBron wouldn't be going to the Knicks right now. He'd be going in two seasons, when they've cleared most of their bad contracts, have the cap space (and an owner willing to spend) to put better pieces around and will have spent a few seasons with a coach and GM finally on the same page. That's a considerably different and theoretically more competitive scenario as going to the Knicks this season, so you can't think of it that way. Same thing with the Nets, who are also in rebuilding/cap shedding mode. And frankly, why are either of those options worse than staying in Cleveland, who have been spinning their wheels since drafting LeBron?
Along those lines, couldn't somebody say Kobe was all about the money/higher profile when he opted to stay with the Lakers in '04, despite the Clips having a better supporting cast (at the time)? Or when he wanted to be traded, but had basically narrowed it down to Chicago, which would have put him on an average team (after the trade) in a fantastic market? I'm not saying that was Kobe's motive in either case, but without extending him a benefit of the doubt, the comparison doesn't look much different on paper.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 02:36 PM
Zen,
I've never heard MJ call LeBron average, or even heard about him calling him that. Can you find that article or clip?
I've also seen LBJ post guys up and I guess I just think he's a better defender than you do. He's come a long way along those lines, as has his shooting. It's not like he's scoring nearly 30 a game just on dunks. He's not Shaq.
You're also disregarding his rebounding (he's among the best non-big men in the league), his steals (top 10 in league in '08) and just how difficult the guy is to guard. I've spoken to a lot of players who say he's every bit as hard to cover (or harder) as Kobe because of that size/speed combo. And if you read NBA player polling results, they say it, too.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 02:37 PM
AK,
"If you watched LeBron's games regularly, but in, I don't know, Delaware, do you think you'd feel the same way?"
I think I'd feel less passionately about my conclusion, but I'd come to the same (or at least similar) conclusion.
Lakers Today. Lakers Tomorrow. Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 02:48 PM
Korey,
>>>>>Also, Bynum is starting to prove his worth. Countless altered shots.
>>>>>Dominant rebounding. This is the kind of stuff that takes its toll on a team.
I loved Drew’s game last night. This was the first game where you could see him grabbing boards above the rim and all of the other players’ hands. It was also the first game where rebounds seemed to stick to his fingers like glue. Additionally, it was good to see him grab a rebound and go up in traffic and throw it down viciously. Give the kid another couple of weeks and I think we will see the center we had last year right before he was injured.
Good to have you back posting. Great observations.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | November 06, 2008 at 03:00 PM
dangles,
>>>>> What do you guys think is going on with Farmar? He had this great preseason
>>>>>but hasn't really put together anything too solid this year. In his interview he talks
>>>>>about putting the team first which will result in some off night, I kind of agree but
>>>>>not totally. Last night he got the ball picked bringing it up the court, that isn't normal.
>>>>>I just think his shot isn't falling and he's kinda looking for excuses. I don't think
>>>>>this slump will really last though. He just has to keep pushing the ball up,
>>>>>being aggressive, and not relying on the 3.
I think Jordan is doing great. He was a real catalyst when we broke the game wide open in the fourth, especially that play where he grabbed his own rebound and put on a sweet spin move to finish with a layup. There was a series of three plays where he had a part of three straight hoops to give us a six point lead. You also have to realize that playing time and points are now being shared with two guys who really were not here last year – Drew and Trevor. Anyway, I thought 9 points, 3 boards, 1 dime, and 2 steals in 18 minutes were pretty good. He did get embarrassed on that one steal but came right back down and sank a midrange. At any rate, he will be our starter next year in my opinion.
And your man Lamar had a great game, too. Clutch free throws and midrange shooting.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | November 06, 2008 at 03:12 PM
Jon K,
Fair enough.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 03:27 PM
So did you hear how Scott Foster, Tom Donaghy's referee friend, came out saying he didn't have anything to do with rigging games for vegas?
There was 170 calls of about 2 minutes each between him and Donaghy during a season. The games Foster worked with Donaghy show a significantly greater frequency of beating Vegas than those games not worked by them.
And I have to say, it's getting like Tiger Beat in here with all the attention lavished upon the prima donnas of the NBA.
Posted by: BUTLER | November 06, 2008 at 03:33 PM
Jon K,
A lack of posturing and technicals does not indicate a lack of competitiveness.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | November 06, 2008 at 03:36 PM
AK,
>>>>>Admitting LBJ is a great player (which is just plainly obvious) doesn't diminish
>>>>>Kobe's greatness in the slightest. There's room for more than one outstanding
>>>>>player in the league (even if he's an outstanding player still not as good as Kobe,
>>>>>as I believe). And be glad that's the case, because if there weren't, Kobe's
>>>>>greatness would ultimately be hollow. There's nothing particularly noteworthy
>>>>>about being the tops among a grouping of chumps.
Well said, Andy. In addition, both LeBron and Kobe still have a long career ahead of them before they can be compared with MJ and other retired players. Having said that, they are among the top 3 players in the league at this point for sure. Kobe is first, LeBron second, and take your pick is third. JMHO.
Did you get a chance to see Atlanta beat the Hornets? Very interesting game, The Hawks are much improved but what stood out to me was that New Orleans has no offense other than Chris Paul penetrating. They spent the entire 4th quarter just isolating guys, usually West, and letting them go one-on-one. Paul got the ball stuffed down his throat several times and the Hornets could not stop Joe Johnson, the guy the Suns should never have let get away.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | November 06, 2008 at 03:56 PM
KOBE = The Best Player in the league.
LBJ = One of the best players in the League.
come on guys, LBJ is in exact stratosphere as Kobe was with MJ days. Succession.
Let's not be blinded with our loyalty to Lakers and Kobe. Let's admit that hand's down no one can lockdown LBJ. A team can shut him down but not a single player. It will take a team effort to shut him down not a single player. That goes with Kobe too. Besides, we already admitted that LBJ is a phenomenal player, that makes him ONE OF THE BEST players in the NBA. but still KOBE IS THE BEST PLAYER in the NBA.
Posted by: tower_of_power | November 06, 2008 at 04:58 PM
AK,
"Along those lines, couldn't somebody say Kobe was all about the money/higher profile when he opted to stay with the Lakers in '04, despite the Clips having a better supporting cast (at the time)?"
Someone could.
As I've mentioned muliple times in this dialogue, I'm not talking about Kobe Bryant. I'm talking about LeBron James.
Lakers Today. Lakers Tomorrow. Lakers Forever.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | November 06, 2008 at 08:33 PM
Jon K,
I realize you're talking about LBJ, not Kobe. My point was that someone else could say the same thing about Kobe's situation, and my guess is that you'd say they were jumping to conclusions. The same logic could be applied to LeBron. Particularly when you take into account that the Knicks/Nets team he'd theoretically join would be nothing like the current incarnations.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 06, 2008 at 08:47 PM
I wish we could get Caron Butler back. I'm hoping they would accept Vlad for him.
Posted by: never | November 06, 2008 at 10:49 AM
==================
Hope they would take Luke instead of Rad.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | November 08, 2008 at 02:48 PM