If we lose Fisher, we will not be able to win the championship this year.

Fisher brings the intangibles that every championship team needs.

We have the stars, Fisher is a role player deluxe who makes those stars look good. He's a leader, he's the strongest point guard in the league; he plays good, solid team defense; and most of all, he's as clutch as they come.

The qualities Fisher brings to a team are qualities that not many players can provide. Farmar is good, but he cannot come close to Fisher as far as contributing winning plays to a basketball team.

Right now, I'd take Fisher over Farmar every single time.

Jon K.

"Cynics always present themselves as realists, but that is rarely true".

"I'm not ashamed to have a highly diverse educational and experiential background."

"For someone to say that Derek Fisher is a mediocre player is a clear indication that they do not understand basketball or competitive team sports."

I'm being a "Jerk" as you say because of statements like those listed above. And that is just from this AM. If anyone disagrees with you they are stupid. Your tone is that of "The smartest man around". The funny part is that I agree with you on most things.

But when I don't agree, you're quick to let me or anyone else know that they are stupid,or uninformed, or both. I will go out on a limb and say that there are probably one or two other bloggers here that are just as smart as you.

Peace,

Jon K,

I think you may be missing what I'm saying. Fish is a fine player whom I love as a person and a player, but he is a mediocre basketball player, as are most role players. Fish fits perfectly into the role that he is given and I don't want anyone else in the league to fill that role, but he is nothing more than a role player on a title team.

Udonis Haslem is a perfect comparison. He's nothing more than an average PF, but he fit the Heat's needs to a tee because he played his role and was team-oriented, like Fish. Heat fans tend to overrated who he is as a player because he was adept at filling his role. It's the same with Fish, he's adept at filling his role, but he's a mediocre basketball player. There are several PGs who are better than him, but not many who can do what we want him to do.

Does that make sense at all?

Zen,

I agree with ALL of that. This was NEVER anything against Fish. I love fish. He has all the intangibles.

A few of us were just talking about IF Farmar can't pick it up, then FARMAR may not be the point guard of the future.

Farmar is coming into his third year. He is not a rookie or second year player anymore. Fish is getting old. Time for him to step up IF he is capable. I predict that if if Farmar doesn't equal or surpass Fish this year, he will NEVER be anything but a backup/second tier point guard.

JMO

Eric M,

By the way, give me an example of cynic recognizing that he actually being cynical instead of "realistic". It's just the nature of the beast.

GO LAKERS!

>>>Shaq could care less about Kobe. He is just softening
>>>him up and then when Kobe loses, he will be right back
>>>to bashing him

So you're saying Shaq is never going to get to bash Kobe again?
That must be sad for him. :-)

Jon K,

re: your man crush on D-Fish. I wouldn´t have phrased
it that way, but I´m with you on D-Fish. He may not be
an all-star, but he was crucial in the Lakers winning 3
championships. When we signed him last year, I noted
that the Lakers would finish at least 5th in the west and
that was before we got Gasol or Bynum showed that he
was working out.

There are 3 Lakers that I absolutely *trust* regardless of
how they play. Kobe, Fish & Pau. What I mean by *trust*
is that 9 out of 10 times they will attempt to do the right
thing and do not have *heart* or *mental* issues. If Bynum
and Farmar or Sasha or Ariza can get to this level, only injuries will prevent us from owning the NBA for the next 5 years. Regardless of who we play.

Eric M,

I feel Farmar is a Back up Point Guard of the future...

Jon K.

"I apologize if my confidence in that regard annoys you. I can be annoying at times."

No problem...It's all good!

We're all hoping for 65+ wins. It's a GOOD time to be a Laker Fan. The season starts in @ 2 weeks AND I AM GEEKED!

>>>I'd say it's an insult to say Derek Fisher is a mediocre
>>>basketball player. He's not.

I wouldn't call him mediocre personally. I'd say Derek is a
slightly above average player (a bit below average stats, a
lot above average on intangibles). He's not really all-star or hall-of-fame
worthy, but definitely someone who made solid contributions
to the three championship years.

K Bros - Have you seen this link?

http://tinyurl.com/nbadramatiquelal00

A guy's writing a fictionized account of the NBA as it happens. In the link I've given, he writes about the Lakers. Pretty obvious who the assassin and the monk are... =)

Fisher is not only average as a player - he is a hair below average for a starter. There, I said it.

Don't get me wrong - he fills a valuable role on this team - but he wouldn't be starting at point guard for the majority of teams in the league. It just so happens that the Triangle Offense is perfect for his skill sets, where he doesn't need to be initiating the offense off of high S&R, dribble drives and kickouts. The Triangle requires player movement, crisp passing and good spacing - and good shooters camped in he right spots around the 3pt line. In a sense, Fisher's job is to simply take care of the ball, make good decisions, hit outside shots, and play hard-nosed defense. Little is truly required of him.

Fisher is one of my favorite Lakers of all time and he has been a huge contributer to mulitple winning Laker teams. But let's not pretend he's something that he's not. He has always had trouble finishing around the rim, has trouble with quick guards, is a poor decision maker in the paint on dribble drives, has trouble defending the S&R (although, what Laker PG hasn't?) and can often go invisible for long stretches. He makes up for this with his valuable leadership, strong outside shooting, steady hand at the FT line, anticipation in taking charges, and strength against bigger guards. I sometimes feel he'd fare better as an undersized 2 rather than a 1.

Let's not forget as well that Fisher basically had a career year shooting from the field last year. Chances are that production will dip a bit. Farmar, on the other hand, is only 21 and should continue to get better. His defense will only improve with experience, while Fisher's is sure to decline as he loses quickness. Farmar is going to take over as the starting PG soon - very soon - and Fisher will make an excellent backup. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen at some point this season, but the switch is inevitable.

Now I'll sit back and wait for the hate mail to arrive... :)

BUTLER COPPED OUT WHEN HE DIDN'T ANSWER PIG MILLER.

THE FIRST QUESTION IN THE WHOLE THING WAS PIG MILLER'S "WHY".

--------------------------------
"they aren't getting better."

Interesting. Why? If he comes off the bench, they have improved significantly. A player with his ability coming off of the bench is a pretty nice option.

Posted by: "Pig" Miller | October 13, 2008 at 12:59 PM
------------------------------

WHY BUTLER? WHY AREN'T THEY GETTING ANY BETTER? PIG, A FELLOW PHOENICIAN NOT DRINKING THE ORANGE KOOLADE, ASKED YOU FIRST.

Xodus,

You're right on about Fish. I think it's easy to overlook what Phil wants a player to do in his system and focus instead on statistical comparisons. OK, so Fish isn't CP3. But he is a brick @#$# house of a 210 lb. guard who knows how to make things difficult for opposing point guards, knows how to defend in a way that maximizes the team's chances of stopping penetration, and is a stabilizing force in an offense that requires intellectual focus and diligence to execute correctly. When you have a team full of explosive offensive weapons, a guard like Fish is essential.

Interestingly, Farmar is very much like Fish in his cerebral approach to the game. That makes Fish the perfect mentor and puts Farmar in the perfect position to gradually take over Fish's role.

The thing I like the most about Farmar is his relentless pursuit of improvement, geared toward winning. He exceeded expectations in high school, then again at UCLA. I think he'll do the same as a pro.

As for the issue about what type of guards we have, isn't it interesting how the first team has a penetrating guard in Kobe and a spot-up shooter in Fish, while the second team has a penetrating guard in Farmar and a spot-up shooter in Sasha? Phil's teams are about flexibility and balance. No one player has to be everything at his position, but it does help to have one player who is (Kobe).

It is such a waste of time to evaluate any player on the Lakers apart from his role in Phil's team system. Also, there is a reason that championship teams tend to be veteran teams. A younger player might be able to do flashier things on the court, but the veterans usually know better how to win in June.

RMA

AK/BK,

Is it true that Tiny URL website has the potentials of spreading malware according to Microsoft? see article below: http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2008/07/11/microsoft-bans-tinyurl-from-windows-live-messenger

Lakers will go against F C. Barcelona as part of their tune up games ex NBA players like Juan Navarro, Fran Vasquez, Ilyasova This is a good test for the Lakers, FC. Barcelona reached the quarterfinals in the Euro League last year w/o Navarro.

Rick F

I may have doubted Farmar inherent shortcomings but I cheer for his success and improvement. I just call what I see but when the season starts, we all bleed purple and gold. Surely, he has improved greatly compared to his initial start with Smush. Doubt is just a contructive criticism that there are still areas of improvement.

With regards to Fisher, there are also doubts thrown in some posts despite his proven success in the past. Well, Fish may no longer have the legs as fast as Tony Parker, CP3 and Deron but he delivers his point when it counts. He and Kobe are still dangerous duo during crucial moments.

I'm open for questions, and pertinent conversation.

Let me throw this out there - if the lakers only needed bynum to succeed, then how many reg season games will fans give the team to establish a winning record before hitting the panic button?

In PHX, I say 15, because of the new coach and system and all.

WAITER demands to know:

"WHY ARENT THEY GETTING ANY BETTER?"

Well, since Pig can't bring himself to explain his side of things, I'll give you an answer.

Last year, the lakers (thru a fortunate postseason schedule that was quite soft compared to the spurs or SUNS or Hornets) reached the FInals with Lam-Od at PF.

So how does it help to change that scenario and deconstruct what was a good team? I would be bringing bynum off the bench to ensure that the starters retain the cohesiveness established last season.

If Lam-Od makes the team better off the bench, then puhleease tell me why...in detail, with facts.

Lamar's contract was now being discussed as he says that he wants to be Laker for life as previewed on PE.com and LA Daily News. Socks may be asking for 80 M while Kobe will opt out and renegotiate for a new deal. Italian team, Olympiakos are ready to throw an investment for Kobe, I doubt if they can beat his good life in LA, provided the insider incident last year is buried in oblivion. With Socks, Lamar, Mihm contract coming up, next year it will be Kobe, Ariza and Farmar who will be asking for more.....I need the Lakers organization will need a bailout from Uncle Sam. LOL!

Anthony "Pig" Miller,

"What's your beef? Either you're BUTTLER, trying to goad me into an argument. Or you're just someone generally trying to incite things around here."

No beef, just interacting. This is a public place of exchange. Just calling you out on your claim of not responding to Butler. But I felt you could've. Oh, I am no way Butler. If I wanted to GENERALLY incite things, I'd come of like LGC or Butler. In case you haven't noticed, this all directed to you.

"You apparently think BUTTLER runs the show around here, and that I should be ashamed or that I'm scared to respond. "

I am not a Butler fan. I don't think that he runs the show. Why are you so insecure? I never intimated that you were scared or ashamed to respond. Interesting that you derived all of that from one post. Maybe you should change your name to "Chicken" Miller? Anthony Miller at least made it to the pros.

"I'm not answering to him or you."

You have been.

Cluck Cluck, Oink Oink. Si hi to the poultry animals!

Xodus -

Thanks for the backup. Doesn't surprise me that we're on the same page. I generally find you to be one of the more insightful bloggers on here.

Wow a debate I see while at lunch here's my small two cents:

Xodus,

"Derek is an above average shooter, gets beat by quick PGs defensively, but can make some defensive plays because of smarts. Running an offense he's average. He's not a great passer, doesn't get into the lane to collapse the defense and make plays because he's not quick enough and takes too many quick shots.

Physical and mental strength I agree with you, as well as leadership."

This is not a knock on Jordan Farmar:

Derek has the lateral quickness necessary enough to hang around with quick point guards. Athleticsm? Not quite but instead he uses his IQ to match up well against them. He faced the likes of AI, Deron Williams, and Tony Parker in the playoffs and did well especially against D-Will when Jordan did nothing but look like a D-Leaguer in that series. Jordan's lateral quickness is not yet with par with Derek and he has been beaten even more than Derek especially on screen and roll. Jordan himself is not athletic. Derek is still a great passer, the thing that separates him from Jordan is the dribble penetration. Fish is not the classic point guard, he is more the spot up shooter of Steve Kerr and John Paxson. Jordan Farmar is the classic dish and drive point guard. That is why Jordan can get into the lane because it's what the strength of his game is not shooting 3 pointers and spot up jumpers like Derek can. Derek is still very quick. And taking too many quick shots? I can say the same thing is true of Jordan and even of Kobe. Heck Heath even did it during the final minutes of the pre season game against Sacramento even though he should have waited and run the clock and finding a better shot selection.

"My point all along is that Farmar should probably be splitting minutes with Fish fairly evenly this season (if not playing more) considering their large age differences, Farmar's superior talent, the desire to get Fish as much rest as possible, and the fact that on a statistical basis Farmar already outplayed Fish last season (Fish was better on D and with intangibles obviously)."

I don't disagree with you with Jordan getting more minutes. It should be less than Derek though to keep Derek in the game and still have Derek's defense. Farmar outplayed Fish even statisically? Let's break it down:

ppg: 11.7 to 9.1: Though I did say before that it's tied because Fisher's more minutes, Fisher still beat Farmar here

rpg: tied

apg: tied

FG%: Farmar

3pt%: Fisher

T/O: Tied

Stls: Tied

FT%: Fisher

So that is 3 categories statistically Derek beat Jordan while Jordan only beating Derek in only FG%.

Not a knock on Farmar, he will eventually become a solid point guard, I still think he has one more year to really prove he is the real deal. And that includes not wilting in the playoffs.

-blitz

PEOPLE THAT TOOK ME:
PIG MILLER

PEOPLE THAT NEED A NAVIGATION SYSTEM AND ONSTAR TO FIND ME:

BUTLER
SNORT OINK
OR BUTLER (SNORT OINK)

zen,

It's a nutraceutical company I'm starting up.

GO LAKERS!

*Just*aLakerfan Poutez:

{Sonny, don’t they teach anything in Colorado except have bumbling white girls try to sue superstar basketball players? Semantics sonny learn business etiquette. Not rehired because of disagreement with owner = FIRED. Getting let go because owner wants to go in different direction = FIRED. It does not matter what or who I wanted as coach but the owners obviously did not want P{J and he was FIRED. ]
No he did not get his contract renewed. If he was FIRED, then there would have been the same notice that Lane Kiffin did by Al Davis. BIG Difference. Get your FACTS straight.

[Semantics sonny. He got fired.]
[ Kidd declining talent and got Byron fired and Kidd accomplished what? Nada. Byron went on to Hornets and built them into a contender with 2nd best record in WC. Kidd ended up in Dallas and what title?]
Lol. Kidd's reputation was built up in Phoenix and Dallas LONG before he got touch with Byron Scott. When he arrived in New Jersey he bailed out Byron Scott's butt out and got to the Finals TWICE. Kidd was still recognized as one of the best point guards even after Byron Scott left until he was traded to back to Dallas last year when he was long past his prime (and yet he got selected to the FIBA Team 2007 AND to the Olympic Team). Now saying Kidd's game was declining? Guy scored in double digits not only till he came to Dallas but also averaged around 8 assists and 7 rebounds per game! Kidd until 2007-2008 was not declining. I find it amusing you say that it is fact that Kidd's game cost Byron Scott his job when he averaged 15.5ppg, 6.4 rpg, and 9.2 apg. Now probably you can be labeled as a Byron Scott apologist huh?
[Confused as ever as you blather on thinking you are speaking facts but just your opinions. Grow up sonny ]
[Son again learn about basketball. Michael Jordan was not effective until his 3rd year as well as Kobe, Deron Williams etc. So he did not make playoffs with rookie. Now that is laughable. Gee did PJ make the finals with Farmar his first year, or Bynum? Some coach indeed.]
Deron Williams in his 2nd year made it to the Western Conference Finals. Kobe did not become great until 1) Phil came to LA and 2) His FOURTH season. Yao Ming was an All Star in his ROOKIE year. Byron Scott had 4 LOSING Seasons (Discounting the season where he got fired I am being fair to him). Phil NEVER has had a losing season. And yes PJ made the finals with Farmar in his SECOND year despite Farmar being in a reserve role. Clearly you are just kidding yourself and just defending Byron Scott when he hasn't done crap except ride Jason Kidd to the Finals and having CP3 develop to carry his butt. Some "Hall of Famer" Byron Scott had to be just to even make the playoffs.
{Dillusional child Kobe was held back by PJ and he tried to get him traded when Kobe tired of PJ’s mind games. He showed PJ he was not going to let him dictate Kobes career or greatness, even though whiskers sided with Shaq and committed the coaching blunder by not staying neutral. Deron second year but not established as one of the premier pgs. Talented and upcoming but not great. Slaon probably had done a very good job of coaching and had good players. Get real.]
[Mbenga showed offense in end of regular season and yet as Kobe stated defense wins championships. We had offensive players so how about trying to use defense? That so hard for you to fathom?]
There are 3 games where PJ put Mbenga in non Garbage times at the end of the regular season and those were Charlotte, Memphis, and Washington. We lost Charlotte and Memphis game and barely won the Wizards game. DJ scored an average of 4.6ppg in that game. That is your offense of Mbenga? Wow.... Kwa-may Brown has done way better and actually played better defense than just blocking shots not to mention REBOUND better.
[Apparantly you remember things differently as we were losing to sub 500 teams because PJ overworked the short rotation. Mbenga came in and provided both instant offense and defense and Stu commented wow he can really play. Wake up out of your slumber.]
Offensive players? The same players who turned the ball over 18 times and were shooting ice cold? Defense wins championships, Mbenga is not a defensive guy less than shot blocking. Come back when he REBOUNDS and denies PENETRATION better boy.
[Dunks by driving lane are way higher percentage than outside shots or don’t you understand basketball? Offense would not have struggled as much. Man am I wasting my time trying to educate a stubborn child?]
[I have posted this before but since you only look at your posts as factual I will reply again to this. I suggested we try Mbenga on Perkins and move him to top of key to open up lane for Kobe. Pau would take KG. Mbenga showed he could hit 15-18 footer so Perkins would have to come out to cover him and keep him honest.
Ira in his stint could have taken either PP or Ray Ray. In short stints he would not have to pace himself and play very aggressive. So simple yet not even tried. So forget the rest of your dribble below.]
DJ Mbenga as a guy who can CONSISTENTLY shoot jumpers from Mid Range?? I've seen Mbenga based on the limited game footage and comparing jumpshots I'll say Rondo has a way better jumpshot then him. I'll say this: Stop over rating players. And what about Defense? Perkins dominated Antonio McDyess and the usual rational basketball fan and analyst would choose McDyess OVER Mbenga any day even on post defense. Luckily for the Lakers Perkins had an injured shoulder plus Lamar played better defense on Perkins than McDyess did so Perkins wasn't an inside scorer as he was against the Detroit Pistons. And here's another thing: don't say I can't say that with Mbenga and Newble we wouldn't have won the series becase YOU can't say even with Mbenga and Newble we would win the series.
[Wow comparing DJ to a point guard shooting jumpers. Lame as can be. I am not overrating players but have seen what they can do. So quit trying to dismiss players abilities. Why compare different players? I saw a game when Harpring ate ip Artest but Luke cancelled Harpring out in his match up. So does that make Luke better than Artest? Yeah right. I can say without Mbenga and Ira that we would not have won the series. Look at results, it is a fact we lost not using them. Celtics and bets won. Its in the history books. Done finito. Got it? I can opine using Mbenga and Ira we could and probably would have won. We will NEVER know. I never ever stated we would have won the series just opined we would have. So again pud puller quit putting words in my mouth. “YOU can't say even with Mbenga and Newble we would win the series.”
[Again who cares what fat Shaq T. Prince or anyone else did. Did PJ coach Prince to do a good job on Kobe and should get the credit too? Kobe’s lack of acknowledgement came because of the fact you loved him or hated him. The writers etc refused to acknowledge Kobe over the years and the Colorado incident did not help. No matter what Shaq said or did he was just Shaq and no bad. Every thing Kobe said or did was under microscope and was judged to death about kobe being Kobe. So that has nothing to do with PJ or his lack of coaching have to do with Kobe getting his dues as time went on. Or did PJ influence the writers with his zen to get Kobe acknowledged. Stick to facts and don’t try to pin Kobe’s success on PJs tail.]
Oh now trying to dodge the question of why Kobe couldn't win against Detroit and had was the one who let Shaq dominate against the Pacers? I dunno if you remember that series but Kobe took tons of shots despite having Shaq securing good position in Game 1 and 4. Kobe didn't bother to pass instead trying to beat out Tayshaun Prince for contested jumpers. If he worked hard wouldn't have he at least found better methods and running the offense to get the best player who has the best chance at the FG% have the ball (as is the triangle offense's passing is supposed to do)? No again you are dodging my question of WHY Kobe shot a low FG% instead of passing it to his team mates and putting blame on Phil when Kobe was shooting us out of the finals.
[BS. You made points as if your opinions are fact.]
Kobe shooting 36% in the 2000 Finals, 38% in the 2004 Finals, and 40% in the 2008 Finals are not opinions, they are FACT.

[ But no guarantee Shaq would have turned those low posts to points. Ever hear of hack a Shaq? Foul him and watch him miss FT’s]
[ As I recall Kobe had a lot of turnovers so do we sit Kobe? Again you can’t say what woulkd have happened if PJ used either player or both, Mbenga or Ira. But again we know for a FACT we lost Not using them. You can’t argue that as that is fact and history.]
Kobe averaged 3.8 turnovers for the 2008 Finals. Kobe in the regular season averaged 3.1 turnovers. While a difference, its not a big difference. Lebron James averages around the same. 18 of the Lakers Turnovers in Game 6 resulted from Steals by the Celtics. Again this is my opinion of what would have happened if Mbenga and Ira was put in. To be realistically honest with you, they wouldn't have done crap.
[Again your opinion and not based on fact. Just like my opinion.]
[I can and I did. You are totally clueless if you think a team of superstars can just be thrown together and play as a team. Again I am really getting tired of you putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said they are ballhogs! That was your way of stating a bs response and trying to attribute it to me. Stick to my points and not what you make up. Got It? So PJ declined offers so does that make him a coward. Seems the greatest coach of all time would want that feather in his hat. Unless of course he knows he can’t do it. Just saying.]
1992, 1996 and 2000 Teams were formed without the 3 year commitments that were required for the 2008 Olympics or for future Olympics. Chuck Daly, Lenny Wilkins, and Rudy T. had all won championships as well. 2004 Team had similar talent such as Tim Duncan and not only had Larry Brown but Poppovich as well yet could only get the Bronze medal. Your point is moot because those 3 teams had players not put the 3 year commitment yet they succeeded.
[Just attribute that to great coaching and molding great players together to play team ball. Something PJ can’t. Even in this preseason he has already admitted he was playing mind games with AB and Pau. I think LO too. What a fool instead of getting cohesion from players he creates discord.]
[I just did and again PJ was clearly outcoached. Kobe had too much responsibility to carry the whole team and coach when PJ wouldn’t or couldn’t. Kobe had to draw up plays, tell players where to be on the floor and when Pau came talk to him in Spanish while coaching him on the floor while PJ sat on his arse.]
LOL LOL LOL! I wish I could stop because you are really beginning to be more deluded more than Butler is! Kobe having too much responsibility? Isn't that what he is supposed to do? Jordan did it did he not and he had Phil as well.
[You are the dillusional one and have your nose so far Butler’s arse you can taste his food in his mouth. Yes Kobe having too much responsibility as your great coach admitted he had Kobe doing more things that he did with MJ. Kobe did all MJ did and was even the playmaker which MJ was not. Kobe coaching on the floor when PJ should be coaching. What a laugh. PJ should give half his paycheck to Kobe.So no kobe’s job is to play not coach but when coach does not someone has to.]
Shaq and Kobe did the same in the 3 peat. Kobe drawing up plays? Please show me any game film where Kobe took the drawboard. Plus when Pau coming to Phil talking to himin Spanish? You should really stop because 1) Pau speaks English well also and 2) He wouldn't have talked to Phil in Spanish. Now it's nothing blame on Kobe and all blame on Phil according to what you said. And saying he was outcoached? Hmm I wonder why you say I can't say Mbenga or Newble wouldn't have made difference while you say PJ was outcoached and treat it as fact. Very hypocritical. In any case, Kobe is not above the game. I know you didn't say that but saying he had too much responsibility is like what you said: BS.

[There you go again moron. Putting words in my mouth. I never said PJ spoke to Pau in Spanish. It was Kobe coaching on the floor talking to pau in Spanish to coach him on where to be. You look up Paus comments as he said it. Also Kobe did grab Cleamons clipboard and draw up play. You look it up as it is well known fact.]
[PJ got fired. Hint hint and there was a coaching turmoil with Tomjanovitch quitting and Winters, PJ’s protégé and triangle innovator, sucking up the sidelines. Ring any bells?]
I thought you said Laker success was more on player success then coaching? If that was the case shouldn't have Kobe being in his prime have even made the playoffs despite having Hamblen and Rudy T.? Again you are just ignoring facts simply you want to damn PJ and belittle his coaching abilities (this once and yes this only once I am putting words in your mouth because simply, you won't stop with the revisionism).

[I am not revising anything and I detest a fake fan like you putting your words which are really S@#t. So don’t attribute your lack of knowledge to me pud puller.]
[No you missed the point. I pointed out what Riles accomplished and showed PJ has not contributed a thing except for zen which is useless. If you can’t see the fact that Riles contributed then you missed te point.]
No you missed the point again and tried to divide up what I was trying to say. You keep giving examples of what other coaches did. That's not what the original point was. The point was:
[No you keep bringing up example of what other coaches did. I just stated in head to head Cryantoni and Doc outcoached PJ and that is a fact. You keep bring up Riles Pop etc and I responded to those remarks.]
"If Laker success deals with players success then why did we miss the playoffs in 2004-2005??
[It is a combination of both but mostly players who are on the floor. However the players cannot perform to their maximum potential if coach plays mind games, makes irrational substitutions or makes no adjustments. The players we had could have won had they been coached right.]
I explained just now that Kobe should be blamed more for the 2006 and 2007 Playoff defeats and not making the playoffs in 2005. Clearly you are again trying to give credit for other coaches and not blame Kobe for losing. (Don't try to put the words in your mouth excuse it is getting old and simply you are blaming Phil and not even blaming Kobe). Simply another Kobe apologist.

[How wrong you are as you are a recently new handle here Hugo but I have blamed Kobe mny a time for his actions. I think Kobe is the best but that does not make him perfect. Had you seen my other posts I have said give credit were it is due and give blame were it is due. So now I am labeled an apologist by a childish pud pulling ankle biter.]
[Don’t have to as I stated we hire coaches in expectation to win championships. That does not mean we always succeed. But when we don’t we replace the losers with winning coaches. And yes PJ has failed miserably in that department as he has brought the most credentials than the other coaches you mentioned. So yes his specific job was to bring championship home and his recent record shows he failed.]
Again:
2004-2005: 32-50 record
2005-2006: 45-37 record
2006-2007: 42-40 record
2007-2008: 57-25 record.
PJ helped Kobe get a team that was worst than the 2004-2005 team and sent them to the playoffs. In that time we were REBUILDING after we traded Shaq and Caron Butler. Most rebuilding processes take more than 2 YEARS. The Timberwolves after making the WCF were in rebuliding mode despite having KG. The Magic after losing Shaq and Penny didn't make the playoffs until 2006. Kobe would have probably opted out (not unreasonable speculation). Phil comes and he immediatly improves the situation to at least be a competitive team at the 7th seed in the 2006 Playoffs. The Kings after losing Adelmen don't look to be a real playoff team despite their talent and even having Ron Artest last year. If any of his record indicates, Phil got this team to compete and gradually develop talent around Kobe to make the Finals. Have we won yet? Not yet but consider it great that we have a bright future ahead and be thankful that we were only was stuck in rebuilding mode for 3 years unlike Minnesota.

[Who cares about T’wolves and et al. The Lakers had better players and so what PJ did not turn it around. Give FO credit for that. Not PJ.]
And finally:
[Just as good since these players made the playoffs and went 3-1 over Suns and then lost 3 straight with PJ making no adjustments and lack of coaching. So not the best players but good enough to make playoffs.]
Wow. Now you are saying Kwa-may Brown, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Lamar Odom are better than CP3, David West, Tyson Chandler and Peja.
[No my foolish one. Different times and opponents. But the fact remains we made the playoffs despite these players but lost due to lousey coaching. By chance have you ever heard the saying that not always the best team wins but the one that wants it more and is motivated? Gee wasn’t PJ’s job to motivate the players?]
That really takes the cake. Who else in the world would think that Brown, Smush, Cook and LO are better than 3 All Stars and 1 Former All Star in Peja. As I say to Butler: Keep dreaming in that world which you think everything is what you say it is. 2006 Playoffs was overachievement. Suns had no Stoudemire and Kwa-may Brown as our center. Brown was distracted by the rape accusations against him and his play suffered after Game 4. Smush shot like crap after Game 3. Cook wasn't even a factor as center. Only Lamar Odom stepped up his game along with Kobe. The next year the Suns with Stoudemire whipped those same Lakers. And good enough to make the playoffs? Wasn't it Kobe who stepped up his Game with Phil to carry us into the playoffs? The next year we had those same players and we barely made the playoffs thanks to Kobe and Phil allowing Kobe to go on scoring binges. Those players except for LO perhaps are bone fide scrubs. No one would dare start Kwa-may as center, nor have Brian Cook as starting power forward, nor even dare think Smush is a quality starter. Yet Phil had those guys to work with and along with Kobe managed to make the playoffs. You really must be more delusional than Butler if you are saying Kwa-may Brown, Smush Parker, Brian Cook are just as good as CP3, Tyson Chandler, and David West.
[Read above comment and you will see the folly of your ways and thought process.]
[How in your mind does this qualify as as me going against myself? Your words in my mouth again? Hell no.]
No simply you state that we can't compare Coach K to PJ because the games in College and the NBA are different. Hence you cannot state that Coach K is a better coach than Phil yet you have said in the past that Coach K is a better coach then Phil. That is going against yourself.
[My facts are facts and my opinions are mine.]
Since when did you become the Fact Master? I'm not the Fact Master either but heck many of your facts (not all) are revisionist facts simply trying to lay Kobe and other coaches blameless and Phil being the 100% blamed for losses.

[When I base my posts on facts and not opinions like yours and call them facts. I also give opinions but you think all your blithering posts are fact.]
I really must stop arguing with you are *Just* a Laker Fan.

[You should as you will get schooled every time.]
Btw Westwood is where UCLA is located!
[If you say so but hurry back to Colorado Hugo Blitz as I am sure your picture is on a milk carton in Denver as missing child. Does your new handle make you a Kobe apologist? Since Kobe blitzes over opponents. Just asking Hugo?

-thekobebryantblitz
UCLA LOVES THE LAKERS!
Posted by: thekobebryantblitz | October 14, 2008 at 01:12 AM
JLF