Really, there aren't many other storylines of import
Which is why Lamar Odom continues to dominate purple and gold headlines. Sunday, before coming off the bench in L.A.'s exhibition win against the Kings in Vegas baby!, LO told the media that if his role is indeed that of a sixth man - and it isn't yet - he's on board:
"You only get one or two shots at this, you know what I'm saying?" Odom said. "Some guys might not be able to take it well, especially in their contract year. Whatever, I'm good. I've made enough. I'm OK. My family's good. Hopefully, I can win a championship this year, and be rewarded for it."
Odom noted his agent probably wouldn't like the move, and it's pretty clear that given a choice he'd certainly pick a starting role (who wouldn't?), but the point he was making is clear: If Phil Jackson decides to make him a reserve, LO won't cause trouble. As for his spotty play early on in the fake game season, Kobe certainly isn't worried.
Meanwhile, Andrew Bynum is coming along, feels comfortable and understands what the Lakers want from him this year.
Back to LO for a minute: I've written this before, and I'll continue to write it. Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench, if Odom is to be a 30-35 minute player, getting starters minutes in a reserve role, than the basic issues of how he'll fit in with the two tall trees up front or with the other starters in the backcourt need to be resolved. The "supersub" role means he'll be on the floor in the fourth quarter and for important stretches with the first unit (or most of it, at least) in the opening half. It's not simply a matter of captaining the second unit. That's a 20 minute a night role, and in my estimation a waste of LO's talents.
PJ has said his lineup experimentation will continue right up until the start of the regular season, but in reality it could go beyond that. I don't think the Lakers will operate like a well oiled machine in the first few weeks of November. But while those games certainly matter, we all know that it matters less how teams play early, but what they look like heading into the playoffs. This team, from the players to the coaching staff, know they're sitting on something good. The key is to maximize it, which could take time.
There are a lot of ways to set things up, to plug in a guy like Odom, to best take advantage of each small forward's skill set. It's very positive to hear LO say publicly that he's on board with whatever Jackson decides to do. For that matter, everyone is saying the right things. PJ has a tough task ahead of him in trying to figure out how best to dole out the PT, but the active cooperation of his players will make it easier, for sure.
I'm still of the opinion that everything will be fine. Time tends to work these things out better than anything. GIve talented players pulling in the same direction enough time to build some chemistry, and good things will happen. I still believe LO can play on the same court as Bynum and Gasol, I still believe that combination can give the Lakers something incredibly unique in recent NBA history.
BK
Charles - I'm in Rancho Santa Margarita. We'll talk before next partaaayyyy!!
Ex - I have to echo Jon K's "BLASPHEMY". Please - DO NOT lump Fish in with the mediocre point guards in this league. The man is nothing but heart. His contributions - both on and off the court - take him out of the mire of mediocrity and put him into the elite level. Please - how can you say anything else? How can you THINK anything else? It's not the 0.4 that makes him great - it's not the clutch attitude and team spirit he contributes to and helps maintain - it's ALL of that and even more. This year, I would rather have Fisher over Farmar - IF I had to choose - any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Thankfully - we do NOT have to choose. We have the best of both worlds - the aged veteran who has got more game than most of the guards in this league - AND the young up & comer who's got some big shoes to fill and needs to start with his attitude. Show me an entire season of Farmar better than Fish and I'll show you the calendar where it says it's the year 2010 or so. Farmar has a lot to prove before he can tie Fish's laces.
Posted by: justanothermambafan | October 13, 2008 at 06:21 PM
It looks like Vlad might be the starter.
http://my.lakers.com/blogs/
Posted by: Xodus | October 13, 2008 at 06:24 PM
Jon K,
I actually agree with Ex. I mean didn't you once rate Fish the 11th best PG in the league? There is no way Fish is better than 19 other starting PGs in the league. He fills an important role for us, but he's an average player.
As someone who grew up in Miami and has many friends and family who are HEAT fans I can say the same thing about Heat fans with Haslem. He's an average at best player, but HEAT fans act like he's an untouchable.
Posted by: Xodus | October 13, 2008 at 06:28 PM
BUTT-ler - what the....???? What are you still doing here? Aren't your Funs playing too? Aren't the Funs fans tripping all over themselves on the Funs blog? Why aren't YOU there - all sharing your fantasy world together? Better yet - why don't you go back to school & run with scissors or something....
Please Laker nation - don't be fooled by this freak Butt-ler. He has no common sense to speak of, and is definitely off his meds. His cow paddies have been stinking up the blog all summer.
AK/BK - can't we close the screen door yet????
Posted by: justanothermambafan | October 13, 2008 at 06:29 PM
Puddle...During the broadcast last night one of the game callers said that in all of the 3peat seasons just gone by the Lakers never had a winning preseason record...In one of those years they went 4-4 ...
Posted by: Thirty2 | October 13, 2008 at 06:32 PM
A BIGGER AND BETTER BYNUM?
Not yet for sure. I have to admit that Drew really is not yet the player he was before he got hurt last year. While I did think he played better yesterday, he is not the beast that was last year. Don’t get me wrong, I still believe this will be Drew’s breakout year and that he will become the next great Lakers center. But it’s going to take him a month or two to get back.
What almost bothers me more is that the entire team seems completely out of synch, much like I thought they were in the Finals. The synchronicity and chemistry that made the Lakers such a pleasure to watch with Drew the first half of the season and Pau the second half is missing. It is probably partially due to Phil’s constantly changing lineups but it also seems as if much of the problem is due to the uncertainty surrounding the lineup and rotation issues facing the team.
Anyway, while the team’s play has been lackluster and Kobe sputtering like during the Finals, there have been some other positive signs. Josh Powell has been very active on the boards and Chris Mihm is showing signs that he may finally be healthy. Jordan Farmar has also played well and continued to be a spark plug off the bench. And Lamar appears to be coming around on the idea of becoming sixth man. As I said before, there are some good reasons for Phil to vary the starting lineup depending on who is hot and who we are playing. That would seem to me be a smart approach, especially since Lamar, Trevor, and Vlade each bring different talent sets to the game. Maybe this different starting lineup at halftime will become the norm.
What I like about rotating the fifth starting position according to the opponent and which player is playing best is that it gives each player their best opportunity to help the team win. In a way, it actually promotes a team-first attitude. It also gives each player the chance to show what they could contribute as a starter and as a sixth man. Nothing helps a player get better than the confidence that comes from success. I hope this is what Phil is thinking about because I think it would be the smart and motivational thing to do. And it would make the Lakers better.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | October 13, 2008 at 06:37 PM
I'm glad that PHX finally got someone with some sense on their staff.
http://tinyurl.com/4xfvlu
Whether or not Steve Kerr is a great GM remains to be seen. But, at least we know he's holding the organization to a higher standard than anyone else there.
"I believe, when all is said and done, that we're still going to be very entertaining," Kerr said. "And I think our fans are ready, too, because we don't have a title in 40 years. Maybe it is time for a different approach."
Maybe it is time for a different approach. Thank goodness they finally realized their recent philosophy has been fools gold this whole time. The Doug Moe Nuggets teams from the 80s already making that mistake wasn't enough. Dallas making it to the Finals only after not re-signing Nash and adopting their own defensive-minded philosophy wasn't enough. Some people are slow learners. At least they've taken the first step. Admitting they were wrong.
Posted by: lakers_sth | October 13, 2008 at 06:47 PM
Xodus,
>>>>>I didn't say that the Farmar, Sasha, Kobe backcourt was usually the end game
>>>>>lineup, just that there were multiple games where Farmar played the entire 4th
>>>>>quarter instead of Fish. Which is the truth. And he did outplay Fish on a statistical
>>>>>basis last year and I would be disappointed if he didn't do it (and hopefully by a
>>>>>slightly wider margin) this year.
I believe Phil will rotate who finishes games in much the same way as I have been predicting he will rotate who starts games. Look, the honest truth is the core of this team are the threesome of Kobe, Drew, and Pau – they’re the players who need to be on the floor to start and finish games. So why not rotate the two starters and finishers according to the team’s needs based on whom they are playing and who is playing well. That’s what I think we are going to end up seeing this year and I like the idea a lot. It really takes optimum advantage of our depth while putting each player in situations where they have the best chance to succeed. It is the ultimate team ball.
I mean, it just makes good sense to make the fourth and fifth starters and finishers the players who best fit each game situation. Fisher, Farmar, Lamar, Trevor, Vlade, Sasha, Luke, Chris, and maybe even Sun Yue would find themselves thrust into situations best suited for them where their special talents or physical skills – be it defense, scoring, playmaking, or rebounding. What better way to share the opportunities of starting and erase the stigma of coming off the bench. It is a sure fire way of taking optimum advantage of our great depth and versatility by adjusting our basketball tool set for each game and opponent. I think the players would love it.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | October 13, 2008 at 06:56 PM
I like Lamar off the bench. He has mad skills physically, played a lot with the second unit last year, and gets along with everyone. We all know LO has his moments of brilliance and his moments of bone-headedness. That's what makes him LO. I'm not sure what I think about trading him, to be honest. I liked that his game was looser last night, but didn't like the three. Yeah, he made it, but oy vey he scared the crap outta me.
If there's one thing I'd change about the Lakers is their propensity to jack up the three. Every team has their something, and this is theirs. I can't tell you the times I've watched a game and screamed "RUN THE OFFENSE!!!"
Loved Fishers fluidity in shooting last night. Those shots were pretty. Drew will get with the flow. Seriously, it's been a very long time since he's played. Hey, I go away for a week from work and come back like a full fledged idiot for the first 10 minutes. He's been gone a lot longer than a week. Radman looked pretty good, but he's not consistant. Like the effort. Like Trevors effort a lot. Powell looks like he's been in the offense a long time. He keeps it up and I don't miss Ronny. Much. Jordan can speed it up, can't he? Smart kid too. Will like to see how he looks three to five down the line. Can't stand #0. He needs to go. Pau looks great. Kobe is Kobe and can turn it on at will. Not worried there at all. Fun to see Mbenga. Mihm can get better - let's see if he does. Miss seeing Sasha and Luke. I'm reserving my judgement 'til I see 'em play. Probably forgetting something but I'm numb from working all day and still packing to move.
GO LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: longtimelakerlover | October 13, 2008 at 07:05 PM
If we are going to go with Vlad at the three we might as well go with Sasha as our starting 3. The only advantage going with Vlad is that he's bigger n taller, which might stop Sasha from starting over Vlad. It's Phils call. If Vlad is starting, expect Sasha to get lots of minutes.
Our best lineup for the season and close out lineup in games:
Farmer, (he has looked great in preseason)
Sasha
Kobe
Pau
ByNUMITE.
No team wants to mess with that line. We got everything we need in this lineup, and most of all this line is competitive.
Posted by: wow | October 13, 2008 at 07:07 PM
Jon K,
"Dude, why do you have to be such a wet blanket at times"
Sorry, I thought you really wanted to discuss what the best lineups would be, and it seems very likely that Farmar will pass Fisher by this year, and thus would probably be part of the "best lineup."
But since we're not doing that, I'll see if A.C. Green and Kurt Rambis can suit up, and we can have an "all heart" lineup. Doesn't matter if they win any games.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | October 13, 2008 at 07:54 PM
I'm really happy to see all the posts favoring Farmar in the Starting 5. This isn't about Fish. It's about Jordan. The Lakers need to open every game with energy and speed.
For as many seasons as I can remember, you never know which Laker team will show up at the start of a game. Jordan will set the tone, something Fish with all his leadership qualities and the respect he has from the entire team hasn't been able to do.
In many ways, this is a new NBA. Kobe is now a senior statesman. The spotlight is panning over to a next generation of NBA players and the game has changed. For all the experience Fish and Lamar bring to the starting unit, they don't bring the energy and excitement to the floor that fans feed on.
The Lakers must adapt. That means big roles for Farmar, Sasha, and Trevor. Phil has kept them safely in the nest long enough. They are ready to rise to the occasion.The sooner the team makes this transition, the better positioned it is for the future. Go Lakers!
Posted by: Rick Friedman | October 13, 2008 at 08:54 PM
Exh,
Jon K. did want to talk about best lineups but he was really taken off by your statement that Laker Fans overestimate Derek Fisher.
Derek will never be the point guard that is a real distributor. However he is the shooter that is required at the point guard slot. Jordan's biggest strength is his passing and that comes in part due to dribble penetration. He's not the guy who usually will be a spot up shooter. 37% for one season but heck that would be like saying Lamar is a great 3 point shooter as well (37.2% in 05-06 season). Jordan does not yet have the defense (beyond steals) of Derek Fisher and Derek doesn't seem to have lost a step.
Don't confuse the 37% of Jordan Farmar's 3 point shooting and compare it to Derek Fisher's Career 3pt%. It is too early to compare Jordan Farmar's 3 pt% to Derek Fisher's 3pt%.
And besides it's not just 3 point shooting that people say Derek is a shooter, he usually gets them in mid range spotting up shooting. Jordan gets more near the basket which is a bigger strength.
Plus Jordan is NOT the defender that Derek is nor do I think that he will be. Solid? Perhaps but Derek at the least managed to some all Defensive team votes last season. Jordan is good reading passing lanes but when he's one on one and especially picked on rolled on he was beaten many times.
Jordan is the point guard needed to penetrate and dish it out to spot up shooters and may get a decent jumper. Having a jumper like Derek Fisher's? I doubt it.
I agree with Jon K. though I don't take it as personal maybe as Jon did Ex. Jordan is improving but better than Derek in the role of being a spot up shooter and really good defender? In my opinion: this is still Jordan's year to improve that personal defense, not wilter, and improve that jumper. So no Derek will still receive most of the minutes at point guard though Jordan will get increased minutes.
Xodus,
Jordan will receive some more minutes this year but he will still have lower minutes overall than Derek.
Derek Fisher: 27
Jordan Farmar: 21.
When the regular season is over, then we can compare who had the better season for point guards lol. Either way as long as we got home court advantage through out the playoffs (including the final) it's all good.
-blitz
Posted by: thekobebryantblitz | October 13, 2008 at 09:10 PM
exhelodrvr,
I've rarely heard you say anything that wasn't cynical.
Cynics always present themselves as realists, but that is rarely true.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 13, 2008 at 09:24 PM
Jon,
>>>>>Dude, why do you have to be such a wet blanket at times – Jon K to ex.
You have to take it easy on ex, Jon. These are not happy times for him. Sometimes, the key ingredient to a championship team are the players like Fisher, who does possess mediocre talent compared to the current legion of awesome point guards in the Western Conference, but also has a championship level of heart and leadership that cannot be measured by a box score.
Farmar will have to better than Fish in order to supplant him as the starter. Being just as good won’t cut it. In fact, I would suspect that Phil would prefer to see Fish start even if Farmar ended up playing more minutes and finishing more games. I also don’t think that Jordan would mind that arrangement. He understands the value and leadership that Fish has provided and the respect that he deserves. If we keep Fish’s minutes down so he stays fresh, he still is one hell of a clutch shooter and will still be a key contributor in this team’s drive for a championship.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | October 13, 2008 at 09:40 PM
Jon K,
Agreed that they key is playing well. I think we agree in principle. That Fish fills his role better than Farmar could, but that Farmar could (and should) be a better player than Fish this season.
Farmar is younger and more talented, he should be a better player than Fish this year. It won't be a good sign in my eyes if he isn't. But that doesn't mean Farmar should be starting necessarily because Fish fills his role well (except for those quick transition 3's and awkward drives to the basket).
Posted by: Xodus | October 13, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Cool pic of Roni flying to China:
http://www.nba.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0810/101308china/content.2.html
Posted by: warren with butterknives | October 13, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Even if the lakers fail to win the West, you have to admit that the games vs. PHX will make this season worth it to be laker fans.
The final chapter of kobey vs. Shack. This is it, men. At long last, they get to do battle in meaningful games in which something great is at stake. Control of the Pacific Division, and perhaps the Western Conference Finals.
The story of this season will be told to our grandchildren..
Posted by: BUTLER | October 13, 2008 at 11:09 PM
thekobebryantblitz,
>>>Jordan Farmar is the classic penetrating guard. In a
>>>way he reminds me of BJ Armstrong and while a good
>>>shooter he's not the spot up shooter that Derek is yet.
Huh? Last year Fisher had one of his best shooting seasons,
and hit 40% of his 3-pointers, while Farmar hit 37% of his, which
is about Derek's career average. The year before that with
Utah, DFish shot 31% on his 3's.
I think it's too early (second year) to concretely assess Farmar's
potential shooting skill. If you made the same assumption about
Sasha, then you'd assume he's a 34% 3-point shooter,
rather than the 44% 3-point shooter he has become.
Most guards do most of their improving in the first 3 years
in the league. Farmar could improve into a very good 3-point
shooter, or last year could be a fluke and he could actually
do worse.
But actually, I think he's about as good as DFish as an outside
shooter and I think Jordan can drive to the hole and shoot
over or around bigs, which Derek is NOT very good at.
Fisher's defense is still a little better than Farmar's, but
Jordan should improve in that area over time.
Posted by: | October 13, 2008 at 11:22 PM
Blitz, Jon K,
My previous post was meant to be addressed to Blitz, not you Jon. I think I had just read your previous post and accidentally wrote your name.
Posted by: Xodus | October 13, 2008 at 11:24 PM
*Just*aLakerfan Poutez:
{Sonny, don’t they teach anything in Colorado except have bumbling white girls try to sue superstar basketball players? Semantics sonny learn business etiquette. Not rehired because of disagreement with owner = FIRED. Getting let go because owner wants to go in different direction = FIRED. It does not matter what or who I wanted as coach but the owners obviously did not want P{J and he was FIRED. ]
No he did not get his contract renewed. If he was FIRED, then there would have been the same notice that Lane Kiffin did by Al Davis. BIG Difference. Get your FACTS straight.
[ Kidd declining talent and got Byron fired and Kidd accomplished what? Nada. Byron went on to Hornets and built them into a contender with 2nd best record in WC. Kidd ended up in Dallas and what title?]
Lol. Kidd's reputation was built up in Phoenix and Dallas LONG before he got touch with Byron Scott. When he arrived in New Jersey he bailed out Byron Scott's butt out and got to the Finals TWICE. Kidd was still recognized as one of the best point guards even after Byron Scott left until he was traded to back to Dallas last year when he was long past his prime (and yet he got selected to the FIBA Team 2007 AND to the Olympic Team). Now saying Kidd's game was declining? Guy scored in double digits not only till he came to Dallas but also averaged around 8 assists and 7 rebounds per game! Kidd until 2007-2008 was not declining. I find it amusing you say that it is fact that Kidd's game cost Byron Scott his job when he averaged 15.5ppg, 6.4 rpg, and 9.2 apg. Now probably you can be labeled as a Byron Scott apologist huh?
[Son again learn about basketball. Michael Jordan was not effective until his 3rd year as well as Kobe, Deron Williams etc. So he did not make playoffs with rookie. Now that is laughable. Gee did PJ make the finals with Farmar his first year, or Bynum? Some coach indeed.]
Deron Williams in his 2nd year made it to the Western Conference Finals. Kobe did not become great until 1) Phil came to LA and 2) His FOURTH season. Yao Ming was an All Star in his ROOKIE year. Byron Scott had 4 LOSING Seasons (Discounting the season where he got fired I am being fair to him). Phil NEVER has had a losing season. And yes PJ made the finals with Farmar in his SECOND year despite Farmar being in a reserve role. Clearly you are just kidding yourself and just defending Byron Scott when he hasn't done crap except ride Jason Kidd to the Finals and having CP3 develop to carry his butt. Some "Hall of Famer" Byron Scott had to be just to even make the playoffs.
[Mbenga showed offense in end of regular season and yet as Kobe stated defense wins championships. We had offensive players so how about trying to use defense? That so hard for you to fathom?]
There are 3 games where PJ put Mbenga in non Garbage times at the end of the regular season and those were Charlotte, Memphis, and Washington. We lost Charlotte and Memphis game and barely won the Wizards game. DJ scored an average of 4.6ppg in that game. That is your offense of Mbenga? Wow.... Kwa-may Brown has done way better and actually played better defense than just blocking shots not to mention REBOUND better.
Offensive players? The same players who turned the ball over 18 times and were shooting ice cold? Defense wins championships, Mbenga is not a defensive guy less than shot blocking. Come back when he REBOUNDS and denies PENETRATION better boy.
[I have posted this before but since you only look at your posts as factual I will reply again to this. I suggested we try Mbenga on Perkins and move him to top of key to open up lane for Kobe. Pau would take KG. Mbenga showed he could hit 15-18 footer so Perkins would have to come out to cover him and keep him honest.
Ira in his stint could have taken either PP or Ray Ray. In short stints he would not have to pace himself and play very aggressive. So simple yet not even tried. So forget the rest of your dribble below.]
DJ Mbenga as a guy who can CONSISTENTLY shoot jumpers from Mid Range?? I've seen Mbenga based on the limited game footage and comparing jumpshots I'll say Rondo has a way better jumpshot then him. I'll say this: Stop over rating players. And what about Defense? Perkins dominated Antonio McDyess and the usual rational basketball fan and analyst would choose McDyess OVER Mbenga any day even on post defense. Luckily for the Lakers Perkins had an injured shoulder plus Lamar played better defense on Perkins than McDyess did so Perkins wasn't an inside scorer as he was against the Detroit Pistons. And here's another thing: don't say I can't say that with Mbenga and Newble we wouldn't have won the series becase YOU can't say even with Mbenga and Newble we would win the series.
[Again who cares what fat Shaq T. Prince or anyone else did. Did PJ coach Prince to do a good job on Kobe and should get the credit too? Kobe’s lack of acknowledgement came because of the fact you loved him or hated him. The writers etc refused to acknowledge Kobe over the years and the Colorado incident did not help. No matter what Shaq said or did he was just Shaq and no bad. Every thing Kobe said or did was under microscope and was judged to death about kobe being Kobe. So that has nothing to do with PJ or his lack of coaching have to do with Kobe getting his dues as time went on. Or did PJ influence the writers with his zen to get Kobe acknowledged. Stick to facts and don’t try to pin Kobe’s success on PJs tail.]
Oh now trying to dodge the question of why Kobe couldn't win against Detroit and had was the one who let Shaq dominate against the Pacers? I dunno if you remember that series but Kobe took tons of shots despite having Shaq securing good position in Game 1 and 4. Kobe didn't bother to pass instead trying to beat out Tayshaun Prince for contested jumpers. If he worked hard wouldn't have he at least found better methods and running the offense to get the best player who has the best chance at the FG% have the ball (as is the triangle offense's passing is supposed to do)? No again you are dodging my question of WHY Kobe shot a low FG% instead of passing it to his team mates and putting blame on Phil when Kobe was shooting us out of the finals.
[BS. You made points as if your opinions are fact.]
Kobe shooting 36% in the 2000 Finals, 38% in the 2004 Finals, and 40% in the 2008 Finals are not opinions, they are FACT.
[ As I recall Kobe had a lot of turnovers so do we sit Kobe? Again you can’t say what woulkd have happened if PJ used either player or both, Mbenga or Ira. But again we know for a FACT we lost Not using them. You can’t argue that as that is fact and history.]
Kobe averaged 3.8 turnovers for the 2008 Finals. Kobe in the regular season averaged 3.1 turnovers. While a difference, its not a big difference. Lebron James averages around the same. 18 of the Lakers Turnovers in Game 6 resulted from Steals by the Celtics. Again this is my opinion of what would have happened if Mbenga and Ira was put in. To be realistically honest with you, they wouldn't have done crap.
[I can and I did. You are totally clueless if you think a team of superstars can just be thrown together and play as a team. Again I am really getting tired of you putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said they are ballhogs! That was your way of stating a bs response and trying to attribute it to me. Stick to my points and not what you make up. Got It? So PJ declined offers so does that make him a coward. Seems the greatest coach of all time would want that feather in his hat. Unless of course he knows he can’t do it. Just saying.]
1992, 1996 and 2000 Teams were formed without the 3 year commitments that were required for the 2008 Olympics or for future Olympics. Chuck Daly, Lenny Wilkins, and Rudy T. had all won championships as well. 2004 Team had similar talent such as Tim Duncan and not only had Larry Brown but Poppovich as well yet could only get the Bronze medal. Your point is moot because those 3 teams had players not put the 3 year commitment yet they succeeded.
[I just did and again PJ was clearly outcoached. Kobe had too much responsibility to carry the whole team and coach when PJ wouldn’t or couldn’t. Kobe had to draw up plays, tell players where to be on the floor and when Pau came talk to him in Spanish while coaching him on the floor while PJ sat on his arse.]
LOL LOL LOL! I wish I could stop because you are really beginning to be more deluded more than Butler is! Kobe having too much responsibility? Isn't that what he is supposed to do? Jordan did it did he not and he had Phil as well. Shaq and Kobe did the same in the 3 peat. Kobe drawing up plays? Please show me any game film where Kobe took the drawboard. Plus when Pau coming to Phil talking to himin Spanish? You should really stop because 1) Pau speaks English well also and 2) He wouldn't have talked to Phil in Spanish. Now it's nothing blame on Kobe and all blame on Phil according to what you said. And saying he was outcoached? Hmm I wonder why you say I can't say Mbenga or Newble wouldn't have made difference while you say PJ was outcoached and treat it as fact. Very hypocritical. In any case, Kobe is not above the game. I know you didn't say that but saying he had too much responsibility is like what you said: BS.
[PJ got fired. Hint hint and there was a coaching turmoil with Tomjanovitch quitting and Winters, PJ’s protégé and triangle innovator, sucking up the sidelines. Ring any bells?]
I thought you said Laker success was more on player success then coaching? If that was the case shouldn't have Kobe being in his prime have even made the playoffs despite having Hamblen and Rudy T.? Again you are just ignoring facts simply you want to damn PJ and belittle his coaching abilities (this once and yes this only once I am putting words in your mouth because simply, you won't stop with the revisionism).
[No you missed the point. I pointed out what Riles accomplished and showed PJ has not contributed a thing except for zen which is useless. If you can’t see the fact that Riles contributed then you missed te point.]
No you missed the point again and tried to divide up what I was trying to say. You keep giving examples of what other coaches did. That's not what the original point was. The point was:
"If Laker success deals with players success then why did we miss the playoffs in 2004-2005??
I explained just now that Kobe should be blamed more for the 2006 and 2007 Playoff defeats and not making the playoffs in 2005. Clearly you are again trying to give credit for other coaches and not blame Kobe for losing. (Don't try to put the words in your mouth excuse it is getting old and simply you are blaming Phil and not even blaming Kobe). Simply another Kobe apologist.
[Don’t have to as I stated we hire coaches in expectation to win championships. That does not mean we always succeed. But when we don’t we replace the losers with winning coaches. And yes PJ has failed miserably in that department as he has brought the most credentials than the other coaches you mentioned. So yes his specific job was to bring championship home and his recent record shows he failed.]
Again:
2004-2005: 32-50 record
2005-2006: 45-37 record
2006-2007: 42-40 record
2007-2008: 57-25 record.
PJ helped Kobe get a team that was worst than the 2004-2005 team and sent them to the playoffs. In that time we were REBUILDING after we traded Shaq and Caron Butler. Most rebuilding processes take more than 2 YEARS. The Timberwolves after making the WCF were in rebuliding mode despite having KG. The Magic after losing Shaq and Penny didn't make the playoffs until 2006. Kobe would have probably opted out (not unreasonable speculation). Phil comes and he immediatly improves the situation to at least be a competitive team at the 7th seed in the 2006 Playoffs. The Kings after losing Adelmen don't look to be a real playoff team despite their talent and even having Ron Artest last year. If any of his record indicates, Phil got this team to compete and gradually develop talent around Kobe to make the Finals. Have we won yet? Not yet but consider it great that we have a bright future ahead and be thankful that we were only was stuck in rebuilding mode for 3 years unlike Minnesota.
And finally:
[Just as good since these players made the playoffs and went 3-1 over Suns and then lost 3 straight with PJ making no adjustments and lack of coaching. So not the best players but good enough to make playoffs.]
Wow. Now you are saying Kwa-may Brown, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Lamar Odom are better than CP3, David West, Tyson Chandler and Peja. That really takes the cake. Who else in the world would think that Brown, Smush, Cook and LO are better than 3 All Stars and 1 Former All Star in Peja. As I say to Butler: Keep dreaming in that world which you think everything is what you say it is. 2006 Playoffs was overachievement. Suns had no Stoudemire and Kwa-may Brown as our center. Brown was distracted by the rape accusations against him and his play suffered after Game 4. Smush shot like crap after Game 3. Cook wasn't even a factor as center. Only Lamar Odom stepped up his game along with Kobe. The next year the Suns with Stoudemire whipped those same Lakers. And good enough to make the playoffs? Wasn't it Kobe who stepped up his Game with Phil to carry us into the playoffs? The next year we had those same players and we barely made the playoffs thanks to Kobe and Phil allowing Kobe to go on scoring binges. Those players except for LO perhaps are bone fide scrubs. No one would dare start Kwa-may as center, nor have Brian Cook as starting power forward, nor even dare think Smush is a quality starter. Yet Phil had those guys to work with and along with Kobe managed to make the playoffs. You really must be more delusional than Butler if you are saying Kwa-may Brown, Smush Parker, Brian Cook are just as good as CP3, Tyson Chandler, and David West.
[How in your mind does this qualify as as me going against myself? Your words in my mouth again? Hell no.]
No simply you state that we can't compare Coach K to PJ because the games in College and the NBA are different. Hence you cannot state that Coach K is a better coach than Phil yet you have said in the past that Coach K is a better coach then Phil. That is going against yourself.
[My facts are facts and my opinions are mine.]
Since when did you become the Fact Master? I'm not the Fact Master either but heck many of your facts (not all) are revisionist facts simply trying to lay Kobe and other coaches blameless and Phil being the 100% blamed for losses.
I really must stop arguing with you are *Just* a Laker Fan.
Btw Westwood is where UCLA is located!
-thekobebryantblitz
UCLA LOVES THE LAKERS!
Posted by: thekobebryantblitz | October 14, 2008 at 01:12 AM
Early reports (maybe a few weeks in) about Kobe's finger mentioned an avulsion fracture, i.e., that his finger is broken.
I thought it was odd too and didn't want to believe it, but I think it's true.
I had a fracture of my olecrenon process on my left arm (that's the extension of the forearm bone ulna to form a ball and socket style joint at the elbow) many years ago. The fracture itself didn't really hurt that much. It was just very stiff at the joint. Doctors were okay with me not wearing a cast after I told them I'd be very careful, had experience with fractures and wasn't experiencing discomfort in the elbow. The fracture was confirmed by x-ray. I saw doctors at UCSF about the fracture so that may be why they didn't insist on a cast. They're going to be more cutting edge and innovative than your typical orthopods.
Anyway, when you have very severe tendon or ligament damage, you can actually rip off part of the bone. I'm not sure if that's exactly what Kobe did, but I think that's probably it. It's still a fracture, but it's related to the soft tissue damage.
Posted by: Benjamin | October 14, 2008 at 01:20 AM
"The story of this season will be told to our grandchildren.."
Fast forward 30 years...
GRANDCHILD: So, Grandpa, tell me why we're Laker fans?
BUTLER: Because in 2008, I finally saw the light.
A man can dream, can't he?
Posted by: Badfinger | October 14, 2008 at 01:28 AM
http://tinyurl.com/3rgyvn
Good Article, should help with your questions of charges/blocking fouls Pig.
Freedom of Movement on the Perimeter
Shows that hand checking is eliminated in the perimeter. Why bigs may have trouble guarding the perimeter more since they cannot use their hands to guard the opponent unless he's near the post.
-blitz
Posted by: thekobebryantblitz | October 14, 2008 at 02:43 AM
I would guess that would be Long Time Laker Fan so if thats you LTLF here's my response:
Let's break down Jordan Farmar and Derek Fisher of 2007-2008 (heck its fun)
Points per game: Derek and Jordan virtually tied in this one 11.1 for Fish and 9.1 for Jordan, Derek naturally having a bit more because of more playing time.
Edge: Tied.
FG%: Derek is more outside kind of guy. Jordan while having a decent jumper as well is more the penetration guy. If you look at 82games.com Jordan has driven the basket a bit more than Derek has. Hence the larger FG% for Jordan because he took more high % shots.
Edge: Jordan Farmar
3PT% Shooting: There is where probably most debates come from lol. True Jordan has 37% while Derek has 40%. Difference? Derek is known as a shooter that is the strength of his game. He isn't a penetrator and when he does try to penetrate it isn't as good as Jordan's. Hence he spots up more and tries to find opportunities from Kobe to kick the ball out of him. Jordan on the other hand is the more classic type point guard. Jordan did get 3 pointers assisted too him as Derek did but many times especially late in the season Jordan stopped being a spot up shooter and mainly tried to create on his own at 3 point shooting without either someone kicking it out to him or getting a pick and which is why Post All Star Break Jordan only shot for 35.3% at 3PT Shooting while Derek remained around 39.3%.
Edge: Derek Fisher
Rebounding: Moot. Both guards rebounded at 2 rpg and aren't the ones who are supposed to get the rebounds.
Edge: Tied.
Assists: Now Derek is not the real distributing point guard . That is Jordan Farmar's perfect style. At best Derek got 4.4 assists per game. Jordan in comparison got 5.5 during his sophomore year at UCLA. Jordan will be the one delivering the assists once Fish hangs up the controls and he will definitely be better than Derek at this department:
Edge: Jordan Farmar
Defense: Derek held up against the best point guards the league had to offer: CP3, D-Will, Baron Davis, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups. While not certainly shutting them down, Derek did a solid job defensively against the top point guards of the NBA. Jordan on the other hand is more of the ball thief, excellent at reading passing lanes and getting the steal that way. Personal Defense last year he was really quite manhandled by D-Will and even against a 35 year old Jason Kidd. Jordan may eventually become solid in this department but he has a ways to go before he can be solid.
Edge: Derek Fisher
Intangibles: Derek has experience and savvy plus 3 rings as well. Jordan has youth and the energy to lead the bench mob. As the Boston Celtics showed though: Experience is a big advantage over youth.
Edge; Derek Fisher.
That is my comparisons of Derek Fisher vs Jordan Farmar.
Xodus,
Jordan may surprass Derek in terms skill but at the moment doesn't have Fish's personal defense (real defense not going for steals all the time) nor the experience and savvy of Derek and those two is what sets them apart. Given time Jordan will become a really good point guard, he just still isn't there yet and has a whole NBA career to keep on improving and I"ll be watching as well.
Jon K,
Don't be too mad there buddy hehe.
UCLA LOVES THE LAKERS (And so does USC)
-blitz
Posted by: thekobebryantblitz | October 14, 2008 at 04:01 AM
Jon K,
Thanks for your info on Cleveland..I have a girlfriend in Cali and they want me to move to the Cleveland area. I'm making good money so I know that won't be a factor.
So you work online from home? I guess with the weather sometimes you have to do that! :)
I won't like having the Cavaliers as my team.
Posted by: zen | October 14, 2008 at 06:27 AM
blitz,
long ago in a far away land, you and I had an excruciating
conversation about LO. During that conversation I
pointed out that this blog was ¨tilted¨towards offense and
that was a problem because *defense* wins
championships.
Would you say that Ariza has played better defense
than LO at the 3? If the answer is yes, why would
LO be on the court during the final minutes?
Posted by: hobbitmage | October 14, 2008 at 06:52 AM
Tony Romo can't play with a broken pinkie finger.
Kobe would just rub some dirt on it and thrown for 3 more scores.
Posted by: Vman | October 14, 2008 at 07:36 AM
thekobe,
Fans almost always overestimate the capability of the players on their team, especially if he is a "favorite." And when the individual is great as a person, the appreciation for that bleeds over into an exaggerated view of his performance/value on the court. You can see that all the time on this blog with some of the trade proposals.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | October 14, 2008 at 07:43 AM
Jon K.
"Cynics always present themselves as realists, but that is rarely true".
Wow! First a taro card reader, then an herbal healer, now a psychiatrist. We're going to have to start calling you "DR. JOHN".
Stop with the silly man-crush on Fish. It's OK to say we love fish, AND point out that he has never been anything but average.
Posted by: Eric M. | October 14, 2008 at 07:54 AM
Xodus,
I have nothing against Jordan Farmar. Quite the opposite, I think that Farmar is going to be a very impressive player. I just think that his maturation process is a little slower than most players in the NBA.
Fisher is the opposite player. Everything about his play expresses maturity, wisdom, and veteran experience. When he was a much younger player, he was still mature beyond his years.
Anyone remember the 2000 Championship? Things weren't all hunky dory during the first half of the season. The team had a lot of problems gelling under Jackson's system. It was a young Fisher coming back from injury playing with energy that galvanized the team. It was after Fisher came back from injury that things began to click.
THAT'S the player that Fisher is. He brings players together and makes other players better. Does he get incredible stats? No. But he takes the charge when we absolutely need it or makes the three point when we need it to swing momentum.
It bothers me that some people expect winning to always be about putting together an All-Star team. That's not it. For the most part it's about having a few key weapons and then a team that surrounds those weapons and plays together as a selfless unit with the intuitive synergy that's needed to win.
Derek Fisher is a winner. He's such a winner that he doesn't need to be a selfish, flashy player to win. He recognizes what holes need to be filled within team play and he fills those holes... and he lets other players play at their best. He doesn't compete with his teammates. He competes with his opponents.
For someone to say that Derek Fisher is a mediocre player is a clear indication that they do not understand basketball or competitive team sports.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 14, 2008 at 07:54 AM
It's wonderful that Rad Vlad is finally stepping up. Let's hope he continues on this streak. It's a real boon for the team. If Rad Vlad plays at the level we expected with Trevor Ariza and Andrew Bynum playing healthy and the better-than-expected addition of Josh Powell, we're going to be REALLY fricken good.
Sure. It's looking like this team isn't going to click on all cylinders until probably after the first month of the season (sorry, 70+ win bandwagon), but when this team does click, it is going to be off the hook.
Our third string team is going to be better than nearly every other team's second team. Our second team is going to be better than half of the league's starting roster. It's going to be nuts.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 14, 2008 at 08:04 AM
Vic working his voodoo with Lamar. Great to see. Hear. Lamar's an important part of this team, and I think what makes him successful--his versatility--will make him successful in whatever role he plays.
Oh my. Last night's Dodger game really hurt. Painful, but I'll take this over missing the post season altogether. You see, I could have missed the pain, yes, but I’d of had to miss the dance. And that would be bad. And I see this Dodger team really responding to this 3-1 deficit. I'd bet money we take the next 2 games...if I had any.
Wes
Posted by: | October 14, 2008 at 08:06 AM
This is probably Fisher's last year as a starter, but he'll still be playing the majority of minutes in next season's fourth quarter, unless we're up by 12 points.
Farmar has a lot of growing up to do, but when he does, he's going to be really fine player.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 14, 2008 at 08:14 AM
I personally think that the Buss family are going with Lamar in the 2nd unit to form a Odom-less starting 5 before the trade deadline, so they can get rid of him.
11M coming off the books can get us a nice couple of players or packaged with another contract for a disgruntled star.
Posted by: DC383 | October 14, 2008 at 08:31 AM
Good Morning Guys!
Posted by: Charles | October 14, 2008 at 08:32 AM
"Why would I respond the jester who doesn't bring explanations for his little rants?"
Blah blah blah! You have responded a multiple amount of times to Butler. You Mr. "Do not bother replying to my post because I am done with you" cop put blogger. Butler was willing to give his reply if you gave yours!
"What a joke."
Indeed.
Posted by: Snort Oink | October 14, 2008 at 08:34 AM
Fisher is still OK and his shooting touch comes in spurts just like when Lakers were winning Championships, however it shows that he's getting close to retirement. He would be effective only for short minutes like 5 minutes per quarter.
Farmar is now a 3 year old Laker and I don't see consistency on his role as our future PG, there are times when he makes brilliant moves dashed to the lane, other times, he shoots in the post w/o even looking at the ring, gets lost on focus of his guard due to double teaming & crowding the lane for Socks. I also noticed that sometimes he could not penetrate effectively against the towering hands of PF's, therefore he settles with perimeter shooting which is also in preseason mood. At this point of his career, he should be like Norm Nixon or Van Exel during their prime as Lakers PG.
Therefore, that will be the Lakers handicap this season against the PG's of premier teams like N/O, Jazz, Celtics, Suns, Blazers, Pistons and Mavericks and also Mo Williams of Cavaliers. If you look closely at speed and shooting talents of PG's of these teams, they surely have advantage against the Lakers. Well of course in a triangle, the PG is only a messenger who will carry the ball to the front court, it will still be Bynum, Kobe and Gasol that will do the damage.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | October 14, 2008 at 08:51 AM
Snort Oink has a point. But hey, I'm willing to let Pig slide once in a while. Lots of talk around here, but little action.
TheBlitz sez:
"UCLA LOVES THE LAKERS!"
UCLA also loves the SUNS - Matt Barnes was a Bruin and now brings the spiritual energy of that school to the Purple and Orange.
It seems that bynumb is such a big muscle man, so big and ripped and everything, that he's forgotten how to move all that bulk at more than 2 miles per hour.
Posted by: BUTLER | October 14, 2008 at 08:52 AM
Hey,
Here's another good story line. Lamar says he'd be willing to
take less money to stay with the Lakers.
Asked if he would accept less to re-sign, Odom paused and then said, "Possibly, but I also have to make a wise business decision."
Here's the link:
http://tinyurl.com/5ytr34
Of course, if he's anything like Bynum, Odom's agent will
come out next week and say that Lamar was wrong, that
he won't take anything less than a maximum contract.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | October 14, 2008 at 08:55 AM
Hobbit,
Try to refreshen what post I said Lamar was on the court on the final minutes hehe.
From what I remember though I could be wrong when I included Lamar in the lineup was last year's rotation at the end of games and Odom was at the 4 not the 3. The lineup of Odom in the final minutes was last year and we did it many times in the playoffs:
Fisher-Vujacic-Bryant-Odom-Gasol. Trevor was out with an injury remember?
If anything I expect more the final minutes to be more like this:
Fisher-Vujacic-Bryant-Gasol-Bynum with Odom get minutes at Power Forward should Gasol or Bynum have fouled out or going against perimeter centers like Okur and Miller.
-blitz
Posted by: thekobebryantblitz | October 14, 2008 at 09:11 AM
At the highest level of basketball or any sport, advantages are achieved between the ears.
In that regard, D Fish is more than just appreciated. We all know his physical gifts or lack of. He has Kobe's respect, he has his ear. On this team, it's rare and matters most. Still? Maybe not quite as much but, he'll be in the right place in the clutch and he'll do what's necessary. Whether he starts or not, is irrelevant. The rest is just a semantical pissing contest.
Posted by: Vman | October 14, 2008 at 09:12 AM
Blitz,
"No one would dare start Kwa-may as center, nor have Brian Cook as starting power forward, nor even dare think Smush is a quality starter. Yet Phil had those guys to work with and along with Kobe managed to make the playoffs. "
Damn, you boke it down! Good stuff!
Posted by: warren with butterknives | October 14, 2008 at 09:14 AM
Jon K,
VladRad contributions on those rainbow shots are indeed secret weapon of the second team. If you bring in Sasha on the other corner, Mihm and Odom will handle the post while Farmar or Yue will execute the plays. this equivalent to the first team in other teams. Frankly, this is the second Laker advantage which is I refer as insurmountable offense. Most teams strenght and firepower are concentrated on their first team while their second team are composed of rookies and defense oriented players. Again if you look closely at our 2nd team players, what is lacking? Defensive grit similar determination of Milsap or Harspring of Utah, Posey or Artest type of protecting the position come in hell or in high waters. Whether Sasha or Vlad, they are still offensive threat and ignored their defense in their games. Mihm's and Odom's height are not impregnable wall, they often think of a possible midrib damage if they block a runaway rig in Corey Maggette and/or Amare Stoudemire, that's worth millions of earnings or even career ending. If we can strenghten our defense on these players from: LO, Mihm, Gasol, Vlad, Sasha, Farmar, Luke and looks like Yue too - beware and be afraid of this team, that is the path towards Championship.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | October 14, 2008 at 09:17 AM
Marc Gasol had a nice game last night, 14 and 10. Guess the trade wasn't so lopsided after all. It's only preseason and I still think Pau will always be better then little brother, but maybe Marc will turn in to a pretty solid player.
Lamar = Laker for Life
GO LAKERS
Posted by: mrbarneydangles | October 14, 2008 at 09:20 AM
zen,
Yeah, I work from home telecommuting for a start-up company I'm a partner in. I'm hoping that when we move to the next stage of development to move back to California. Until then, long hours on the computer indoors avoiding the Northeast Ohio gray.
Eric M,
My "man crush" on Derek Fisher is anything but silly. It annoys the hell out of me when people think that a player has to score a lot of points and have big stats to be above "mediocre." It's about winning. Derek Fisher plays a big role in the success of the Lakers (and other teams he's played for). It's that simple. A mediocre player is unable to ensure the success of a championship dynasty. It's that simple.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 14, 2008 at 09:23 AM
Eric M,
"Wow! First a taro card reader, then an herbal healer, now a psychiatrist. We're going to have to start calling you "DR. JOHN"."
Dude, why are you being a jerk?
I'm not ashamed to have a highly diverse educational and experiential background.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 14, 2008 at 09:26 AM
Long Time Laker Fan,
Shaq could care less about Kobe. He is just softening him up and then when Kobe loses, he will be right back to bashing him
Posted by: zen | October 14, 2008 at 09:41 AM
Jon K.
Is this an internet startup? If so, I may want in!
Posted by: zen | October 14, 2008 at 09:44 AM
Long Time Laker Fan,
Awesome link. I like what he said about Kobe. But, I really like what he said about "Mr. Russell" and Kareem. He showed that he can be humble from time to time.
He got a *tiny* bit of my respect back with that interview.
11 rings. Wow. That still amazes me. And, Russell seems to be one of the genuinely good guys in the league. At least in public.
--Fearless
Posted by: Fearless | October 14, 2008 at 09:54 AM