In the category of "dumb things said"...
This little gem would qualify. The notion that Magic Johnson "faked" having HIV is, on its best day, shamefully ludicrous. But hey, at least these guys were being "edgy." As we all know, that's what matters most in today's media. Their station issued the inevitable "we regret these statements" statement.
For those interested in hearing the inane exchange, have at it.
(Update: Magic has taken the high road and opted not to call for the clowns in question to hit the unemployment line. A classy move, for sure.)
AK
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I just listened to the exchange.
Beavis and Butthead are mental giants compared to these buffoons.
O Lord, deliver us from the idiotic and let the NBA season begin in earnest.
Posted by: Jamie Sweet | October 10, 2008 at 01:56 PM
Seriously?
Posted by: #4 | October 10, 2008 at 02:46 PM
Ive always thought that Kobe clearly faked the whole colorado thing....
Posted by: Kiwi | October 10, 2008 at 02:47 PM
AK-
Just saw that article, ridiculous!
You're right! The Shield is getting intense! What's Shane gonna do now...
Posted by: ajax | October 10, 2008 at 02:50 PM
I'm pretty sure these guys in Minnesota should be dragged behind a truck while Laker fans beat them with bamboo sticks.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 10, 2008 at 03:25 PM
Yeah, Magic just wanted the extra attention. He didn't want to just play a game he loved. He would rather get a diagnosis of a disease with a super negative stigma so he could weird everyone out.
That BS makes a lot of sense.
When making science or medical comments, it helps to have a clue about recent developments in treatment. HIV positive folks are living about as long as regular folks, albeit with far more expensive medical treatment and way more medication side effects.
Posted by: Benjamin | October 10, 2008 at 03:49 PM
This makes me think of that South Park episode where the kids go visit Magic in order to find out the cure to AIDS. It's pretty poignant when they discover that the cure to AIDS is.....MONEY!!!!!
Who would've thought!?
Posted by: Lawrence Tanter's understudy | October 10, 2008 at 03:49 PM
What Magic got to gain in faking his diseases? Unlike cancer where people will sympatize with you 100% AIDS is a disease you will not be proud to announce to the whole word. It's a shameful disease that if you can hide it until you die you will do it by all means. Of course if you got infected because of blood transfusion or going from the dentist just like what happened to the tennis great Arthur Ashe, there's nothing to be ashamed of getting that dreaded disease. But admitting you got it from another woman (Johnson being a married person) you must be crazy to faked you have an HIV virus. Destroying your reputation and people not wanting to be close to you because of your infections all these 17 years of your life just to gain sympathy is ridiculous. Magic should sue those two idiots.
Posted by: dacsila | October 10, 2008 at 03:52 PM
Eddie Jones is going to Indiana!
Posted by: bAkEr LaKeR | October 10, 2008 at 03:56 PM
Jamie Sweet -
No worries. It's all good.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | October 10, 2008 at 04:06 PM
Here's something everyone on this blog should agree on.
Two things you should never do.
1) Spit in the wind.
2) Use Magic's good name for your own selfish interests.
Posted by: Laker Kev | October 10, 2008 at 04:23 PM
I don't comment much, but, this is just really ridiculous....I can't believe that these guys would even consider such a stupid idea...did they even consider the times when Magic came out?
I mean, I'm only 23 so I'm not 100% sure as to when he announced he had the disease, but if I'm correct it was way early 90's right?
Announcing to the world that you have AIDS in 2008 is nowhere near as taboo as the early 90's.....Magic should be given all the respect in the world to come out when he did....put aside the fact that it shortened his already Hall of Fame career, I can just imagine some of the remarks he got from homophobes or ignorant people in general for admitting the fact that he was diagnosed...Players didn't even want to be on the same court as him (I'm talking to you Malone) and yet, we're supposed to think he would put himself through that for what, sympathy votes?
So Magic is one of few, I'm sure, living examples of striving with the ultimately, deadly disease. I think, though, that it's safe to say a majority of the people with the disease cannot afford the treatment that Magic has probably received as he is rightfully financially secure. It's an unfortunate, but true fact that if you have the money, you can get medicines and treatment that people like myself would otherwise be unable to afford.
Honestly, IMHO, I think these guys need to be taken off the radio. I'm never an advocate of making someone lose their job or getting someone fired, but when they warrant it themselves, then I really don't see why they shouldn't be gone. Shock Jock or not, those are just inappropriate comments and just generally stupid and not needed and is a slap in the face to people with the disease, including Magic, that are still living.
Posted by: Rob | October 10, 2008 at 04:23 PM
PARTY ALERT!!!!!!!!!!
Hey all. We (me, Charles, Simi Laker Girl, Lakerman420, hopefully Elle) are getting together for a Laker viewing party this Sunday Oct. 12th at 6:30 to watch Lakers vs. Kings. If you are interested in joining us please send a message to myself at www.myspace.com/pslakerfan or Simi Laker Girl at http://www.myspace.com/augie5581 She or I will respond with the location if you are interested. I would give out e-mail, but the K-Bros frown on that :-( It is a sports bar, not a private residence so everyone will feel comfortable.
We have been trying to get one together for a while and if you can come that would be great. It will be in the general vicinity of the SF valley.
Thanks,
pslakerfan
Posted by: Simi Laker Girl | October 10, 2008 at 04:28 PM
Simi Laker Girl,
Just wanted to say you've got some awesome 90's songs on your myspace. haha
Posted by: Xodus | October 10, 2008 at 04:59 PM
Simi laker Girl -
Speaking of parties, I heard Lamar Odom is throwing a Pre-Season "Laker" party tomorrow night at Jet in Vegas. Leave it up to L.O. to be out partying the night before a game (although it is preseason, he's done this many times during the regular season).
Posted by: bobie | October 10, 2008 at 04:59 PM
Man, do I hate stupid people.
The dumbest thing is that they say he faked having AIDS. Magic has never developed AIDS because he could afford the medication to keep his HIV from developing into AIDS. If that hadn't been the case he would have died a long time ago.
Posted by: Xodus | October 10, 2008 at 05:12 PM
LO throwing another party. If it ain't a jump shooting party, it ought to be a going away party.
Lamar=Laker until we find a taker
Posted by: htj | October 10, 2008 at 05:33 PM
htj,
Man, that was cold!
Posted by: Xodus | October 10, 2008 at 05:38 PM
Those idiots, just trying to stir up the pot, because they have nothing else...not talent...
Now if they really believe what they are saying...hey I got $1000 to give you if you accept a blood transfusion from Magic...
If you don't believe he is HIV positive, then it is easy money...
Posted by: Jin | October 10, 2008 at 06:46 PM
AK,
By the name of your latest title, I thought BUTLER got his own thread! LOL
Posted by: Santa Barbara's Finest | October 10, 2008 at 06:49 PM
That was very cruel what they said and implied. Similar to what Howard Stern and other shock jocks say on a daily basis.
Although the station publicly condemned their actions, privately they probably are being praised and given raises.
Posted by: Fatty | October 10, 2008 at 07:53 PM
Hi there Xodus,
you went to my myspace and didnt email me about the party- are you coming?
I have the 90's songs there because I was bored one night and I thought I should start cleaning so I put on a bunch of cheesy songs that came out while I was in high school, cleaned and did cheesier dances lol.
Bobie and htj,
I am not sure I have seen alot of either of you on the blog but I took the long off season away from the blog, so welcome.
I think Lamar just needs to find his rhythm, he would be good as a 6th man, he just has to get used to the idea, also it's gonna be hard because he has been a starter for how long? I think it is a bruise to the ego to be replaced by pau, because the lakers just got him.
if he cant buck it up and be there for the team and play basketball, then trade him after this season, but nobody needs to discount him now- same thing with Walton he played like a bum last season but now he should be healthy and he should give us the chance to get to know him again.
Lets wait on trading anyone untill christmas, that will give us the time to see how our team works together and then decide who doesnt perform- it is only preseason.
LETS GO LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE ROAD TO THE RING BEGINS!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Simi Laker Girl | October 10, 2008 at 08:05 PM
Imagine if Magic Johnson had retired at 38 instead of 32.
It's such a shame he got sick.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 10, 2008 at 08:36 PM
I would like the thank the Blog for their response to this issue. I made the mistake of reading some of the more than (at that time) 500 comments on ESPN's article on this subject and found a surprising amount of racism, ignorance and hate often politicized and tied to free-speech and the upcoming election.
I should say that Magic is my #1 all time favorite athlete bar none. His combination of greatness at and love of the game is one we may never see again. I can understand why people who did not follow his career closely might not recognize the wonderful qualities of his character, particularity in light of the fact that the media enjoys pointing out ways in which celebrities are not perfect (and magic certainly was not, and I would assume still isn't).
But this is asinine crap, and I'm glad there is somewhere I can go to discuss this with a dose of sanity and common sense, even allowing for divergent opinions and the occasional troll. Thank you.
GO LAKERS
Posted by: Cameron | October 10, 2008 at 09:08 PM
Don't know what to say about the tools from whatever show that was... but we all know that ignorance exists out there in the world and we just call it what it is. We also know that good exists as a counter-balance and Magic is definitely a good guy.
On another topic, this early part of the preseason always feels strange to me. On the one hand, I'm totally into the fact that it's basketball time again, that things are starting to happen. On the other hand, it's so embryonic that it's hard to assign any real opinions or value... does that make any sense?
Posted by: dave m | October 10, 2008 at 09:22 PM
Klacs Steve hartman is crying about the two ex losses dude is on something call bruin homer, I say its the preseason.
simi laker girl great music WOW
Posted by: pk-mesa | October 10, 2008 at 10:53 PM
Oh and magic doesn't have aids, thats increditible I guess the stock market isn't losing any money too!
Posted by: pk-mesa | October 10, 2008 at 10:57 PM
Cameron,
There are a lot of idiots in this country. Most of whom don't read newspapers, but they might go to ESPN. One of the reasons this blog is as good as it is is because a lot of the bloggers here are relatively intelligent and nearly all are diehard Lakers fans.
Idiots from places like Lexington, Kentucky who don't read have a tendency to make repulsive statements.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 11, 2008 at 08:03 AM
All these issues redounds to jealousy on the achievement of this black player. Whether it is Magic or Kobe, these wackos want to attract attention to their station, get ratings at the expense of someone's success. Is there anything new from such innate self-serving interests?
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | October 11, 2008 at 08:13 AM
Simi Laker Girl,
Unfortunately I live in Florida. :(
Posted by: Karl | October 11, 2008 at 08:37 AM
Simi Laker Girl,
Yeah, those are songs that were out when I was in elementary-middle school. Good memories. haha.
Posted by: Karl | October 11, 2008 at 08:38 AM
Cameron,
Avoiding the ESPN.com message boards is the best thing a person with an IQ over 90 should do.
Posted by: Karl | October 11, 2008 at 08:40 AM
oops!
Those posts from Karl were from me Simi Laker Girl. I was signed in somewhere else and it makes me post as Karl here too.
Posted by: Xodus | October 11, 2008 at 08:41 AM
AK,
I know this may not entirely be the right forum for this question and it is preseason and all, but do you think that the Clippers victory over the Lakers is more an indication of the Lakers still trying to get their footing as a team with an almost too flexible roster OR is it more of an indication that the Clippers might actually be pretty good this season?
Go Clippers!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 11, 2008 at 09:11 AM
Now this was an insensitive thing to say and it was in poor taste...but it was a joke.Not dissimilar to the Phil Jackson brokeback thing except worse taste as you are joking about someones life threatening illness...when Phil actually just highlighted peoples stupidity by alluding to a gay situation in a normal way - which is apparently what the gay community wanted anyway right? to be accepted and treated normally? Phils joke contained too much sexual imagery but it wasnt offensive to anyone unless you were hanging around waiting to feel offended.
Anyway I dont seriously think these guys believe magic faked aids nor did they expect other people to take them seriously.It's possible they were looking to draw attention to themselves but probably more likely they were just doing their thing and pushed it a step too far.Should they be accountable for the fact that the media make it out as a serious thing and idiots actually believe they are serious?
The announcers themselves even say the whole theory falls down when you assess magic's motivation.(that bit of course has not been widely reported)This was humour...insensitive humour but still humour in a day and age where humour is edgy,insensitive and constantly pushing boundaries...and lets face it we live in a world where public figures are constantly the victims of such humour.
Nearly everyone on this blog at the time from the K's down thought it was okay to be 'insensitive' to Britney Spears when she was mentally ill.... mental illness and substance abuse are misunderstood and no laughing matter but we can be insensitive and misinform edabout that...What about the Kobe jokes regarding his false rape accusation? ...and if these guys are going to live irresponsible lifestyles and get away with it becasue of the money then they are going to be joked about....misinformation? yeah maybe... but stupid people are stupid people and if they are that stupid then they probably still think you get aids from sitting on a chair.I mean what? we want to take some responsibility for society and this stuff all of a sudden? anyone with a mic has catering to the lowest common denominator? OK sign me up but do it consistently - dont cherry pick ...or maybe Kobe bryant shouldnt jump over aston martin's becasue the idiots will think they can do it.
We're either a culture that behaves responsibly or we're not...and most of the time we are not.Its about money not responsibility.
The general lack of regard for peoples feelings by both comedians and in the media is what we should be complaining about...that and the fact that the media are the ones out there giving the hype to this sort of stuff.Now this particular situation may or may not or be worthy of it but generally speaking so much of these situations are unworthy of it....
So hold them up as villans if you want but theres deeper issues than that which we should be looking at.We blame these guys for their 'use of the media' to publicise themselves if that is in fact what they were doing) when you should be blaming the media itself for creating such a climate in the first place if we are that readily cynical....
We should also look at the hypocrisy in our own lives and in society at large regarding what is and isnt okay to say and to joke about.
I'm sorry but while these two guys are being hauled over the coals I really find once again the real issues are lost.I personally find alot of stuff offensive or could be construed or misconstrued as such but as long as the masses are all misinformed over the same things then its okay I guess - poke a toe out of cultural line though and you've had it.
We constantly blame the one off products of a system...not the system itself.Thats democracy for you.
With all this financial crap going on its a good time to be thinking about areas of society that need a radical overhaul and media and celebrities is one major area.For the most part though pick a line dont cherry pick whats fashionable to get offended about.
we need to be ever progressing to being more reasonable and enlightened.We've seen it with the banks...now if we dont gain control of the information explosion we will suffer the consequences without doubt.
Posted by: Kiwi | October 11, 2008 at 10:28 AM
Jon K sez:
"do you think that the Clippers victory over the Lakers is more an indication of the Lakers still trying to get their footing as a team with an almost too flexible roster OR is it more of an indication that the Clippers might actually be pretty good this season?"
Both. The lakers are trying to tweak a formula that worked out for them last season, which limits team effectiveness right now. Pau and bynumb both like to oocupy the same areas on the floor and given that bynum hasn't played in half a year, it's going to be a long adjustment process to get things going.
The Clips are going to be better than people give them credit for this season. Sure they lost brand and maggette, but team chemistry may improve with Baron and Camby in their place. Throw in their unproven but potent playas such as Thornton and that dude who posterized Chris Mihm, who's name I can't recall, and you have the makings of an athletic team capapble fo both scoring and dominating the frontcourt.
The lakers will not own Staples this season like last year.
Posted by: BUTLER | October 11, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Kiwi.....Top Notch my friend....Well done .....Great Post
Posted by: Thirty2 | October 11, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Jon K,
It's a preseason game. It means absolutely nothing. The Clippers may very well be better than expected, but that could mean they win 40 games this year.
Posted by: Xodus | October 11, 2008 at 12:25 PM
AK
I appluad your addition of Magic's stance, which is just another reason to consider him the classiest of classy.
I would also like to apologize for my extreme political rants that you saw fit to not post, for the ggod. Magic Johnson is one of the few, living, people who I call my hero. He is an inspirational figure to poor men and women across the country, and abroad as well. To listen to two men who, obviously, have no idea WTF they are talking about gets my blood boiling as only a careless Luke Walton bounce pass can.
We should take a page from Magic's book. He wants to make sure the radio hosts help to educate their audience about the truths a nd realities of HIV/ AIDS. Well, let's help. What can we, as a blog, do to educate these radio hosts? Can we forward them an online medical journal that uses Magic's case as a basis for study? I am no medical professional, and don't know if this is possible, but it seems spreading a little education is just what the world needs.
Basically, in the words of Burt Bacharat: "What the world, needs now, is love, sweet love...
Let's educate these clowns.
GO LOVE!!!!!
Posted by: Jamie Sweet | October 11, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Kiwi,
Dude, you're missing the point.
They insulted MAGIC JOHNSON! MAGIC JOHNSON!
It's not the stupid thing they said it's who they said it about.
Man, I'd donate time and money to get Magic Johnson elected president if he ran! Talking smack on Magic Johnson's almost like talking smack on a family member!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | October 11, 2008 at 12:38 PM
With the thousands and thousands of hours of radio broadcasts across the country each day, it actually surprises me that things like this don't happen more often. To wit, I've read dumber things on this blog, and people have time to actually process their thoughts before they type.
It's like the people panicking after a couple of preseason games, calling for wholesale changes or the coach's head. One can only imagine the gems they'd come up with given their own radio show.
Last year during the preseason, fans and media were complaining that Kobe was phoning it in, and if I remember right, he had a pretty good season. Why don't we wait until Game 1, or maybe a week or two into the season before we allow our heads to implode.
Posted by: Marty | October 11, 2008 at 12:42 PM
AIN;T NO PARTY LIKE A LAKERSBOG PARTY...
it shouldn't be hard to recognize who's who:
-Simi Laker Girl will be the one singing karaoke to "Oasis" during pre-game.
-Faith will be the girl smacking away drunken, cheesy, one-lined meathead's at the bar with her Trio.(or is it a blackberry now??)
-Mamba24 will be the guy walking arounnd with the beer-stained ROLL CALL list.
-Jon K. will be the guy doing karate chops and round-house-double snapkicks every time the Lakers score.
-Edwin will up past his bedtime. Outraged by the fact that bars don't serve warm milk!
-BUTLER will be the guy in the Nash jersey getting jumped in the parking lot.
-Kiwi will be the guy getting a D.U.I. in his Yugo with international plates.
-Laker Tom will be the guy with me in the circle getting blunted in the bathroom.
-AK and BK will be "too cool" to show up!
-Mike T. is the name on the tab that I'm using to buy rounds for everybody.
-Joninjapan(incanada) will be the dude, double-fisting pitchers. Using passports as bar-coasters.
-Listen for the laughs, you will find Ex huddled in a group, cracking fools up.
-You can't miss Blitz, the only one there with a pocket-protector and stacks of stat shees.
-Laker s_th will be scalpig tickets behind the bar.
-mrbarneydangles will be wearing the New York Knick's Lamar Odom jersey.(he's gonna get traded you see)
-sonnybelfast will be the only one rooting for the Kings!
-STARGAZIN...That dude's not with us anymore. Posted himslef to death!
-Rocky and Andrew Z will be late to the game. San Diego traffic sucks.(luckily, Ex has his helo)
-KL will be somewhere being miserable.
-Korey will be the guy walking around trying to pick fights with people.
-And psLakergurl is the one I'm going home with.
Santa Barbara's Finest
Posted by: Santa Barbara's Finest | October 11, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Kiwi
Great post, I agree with you on many points.
I do, however, think that in order to begin changing the public perception of such folk, that we need to do something to ferret them out. Britney Spears succumbing to mental fatigue as a result of her probably too meteoric rise in a world that idolizes those that rise from nothing is one thing. I believe public slnader is another.
I choose to pay or not to pay to see/ hear Britney Spears, or Michael Richards or George Carlin or to see Bob Dole speak at a university, but when Public Radio and Public Television, that which is funded by citizens tax dollars, moves into the realm of uninformed slander, than I have a big problem with a, "well, that's they way the world is now" mentallity.
I agree, no cherry picking, no double standard, however, I think we must look at the line between voluntary entertainment (going to a comedy club, Laker game, speech, cable TV, etc) and how public funds are used to give people like this a voice where they would, otherwise, have none.
But I agree that, too often, we see something we don't like hearing and decry it while we defend against the same from someone who doesn't like what we like. That si human nature and the basis for political discussion, which has been reduced to shrill crys of 'foul' in the wind.
Posted by: Jamie Sweet | October 11, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Question for the blog.
I am going to the Phoenix Suns vs. Denver Nuggets game today in Indian Wells. I am not a fan of either, obviously, but I thought it would be cool to go to an outdoor game and I live 2 miles from stadium. So, my question. Do I root for Nuggets because I hate the Suns, root for Suns because I hate the Nuggets or do I represent the Lakers and just root for carnage? I think I know most peoples answer, but I am curious. By the way I will look for Butler. (I am thinking pigtails, pink sweater and skirt, bobby socks and black leather shoes).
pslakerfan
Posted by: pslakerfan | October 11, 2008 at 01:08 PM
pslaker fan-
Root for injuries...jk(kinda). Just wear your Laker gear and be indifferent. By the way, checks in the mail, thanks again.
-----------------
Jon K-
You've told me to go to Scotland Yard on Sherman Way and I still haven't but I went to Cavarettas (right next store to Scotland yard) today for lunch and it was super good, you ever been there?
-----------------
Santa Barbara's Finest-
No dice on the Odom Knicks jersey, I'll just keep rocking his Laker jersey (if I even had one, I just have a Kobe authentic). and its Lakers all the way, never rooting for another team.
Lamar = Laker for Life
GO LAKERS
Posted by: mrbarneydangles | October 11, 2008 at 03:44 PM
Santa Barbara’s Finest,
>>>>>Laker Tom will be the guy with me in the circle getting blunted in the bathroom.
LOL. And wearing a KB24 AND AB17 Jerseys back to back. Good party takes, SBF. I really could visualize several of the partygoers.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | October 11, 2008 at 03:57 PM
John K...
I too think magic is great and Ive got no knock on you for feeling the way you do but I just attempted to objectify my response more.We're in different ballparks with completely different interpretations.All is cool.
Thirty two - thanks heaps!
Santa's finest...classic! my friend used to pick me up for school in a yugo everyday - true story.I wish I could go this party!
Posted by: Kiwi | October 11, 2008 at 04:08 PM
pslakergurl????
Ouch, slapped with a featherduster. The pain, the pain, it's unbearable.
Posted by: pslakerfan | October 11, 2008 at 04:22 PM
Jamie,
I definitely see your point but I think its fair to say that Britney was publicly slandered as are many of these people and often there is an element of misinformation on important issues...and you'll see more of the same if you turn on family guy,southpark,david letterman,Leno...and Fox news... etc the list goes on....These very same guys have probably taken the wees out of all kinds of people and their issues.
To be fair I'm not sure how the tv funding thing works in the states but I guess some, if not all of those shows ,are free to air or have been at some point...and I love alot of those shows but theres alot of misrepresenting issues and slander happening and we dont go holding everyone to account.
It does come down to whats cool and whats not.We've got freedom of speech to a subjective point...I mean should we be able to discuss magic if we want to? wheres the line? I thought it might of been further back than it actually is.
You and JK are peeved becasue its Magic and fair enough,thats completely fair enough, but it doesn't change the fact it happens to all kinds of people every day....and in London they hand out free newspapers that are basically tabloids on the tube and round the stations where people who might never purchase one of these things under normal circumstances will take one out of sheer boredom to get their daily dose of bullcrap celeb news and watered down politics.Any thoughts on that?
But I will say one thing with absolutely no offence intended...its merely a thought...As great as it is that magic looks to promote awareness of the realities of the illess how does spending a fortune to beat it display the realities?Won't these people in need of education look at him and say 'well this HIV thing is a load of baloney magic's had it for years and he's fine'
Dunno irrelevant to the discussion we were having perhaps, and I dont think I can rightfully expect Magic to not use all his resources to fight the illness but I do see a certain amount of irony about a guy who has access to all sorts of treatment that most people dont have educating others on the realities of the illness while seemingly avoiding those same realities...and I dont think theres any particular class in his not calling for these guys heads...he would be a gigantic A&*hole if he did...and as someone used to dealing with the media magic knows the drill....he just had to respond.Again I love me sum magic but I'm just keeping it real.
Posted by: Kiwi | October 11, 2008 at 04:25 PM
pslakerfan,
I'm so sorry, I don't know where I got that from, Wasn't there a pslakergurl here at one time?? If not, my sincerest appologies!
Posted by: Santa Barbara's Finest | October 11, 2008 at 05:52 PM