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Mitch talks a little Sun Yue

On the Lakers' website, Mitch Kupchak discusses the Chinese point guard, a 2007 second-round draft pick looking to make the team this season and begin his Lakers career.  Much of the interview centers on the contractual/legal complications involved with bringing Sun overseas, which folks may or may not find interesting.  But there are a few details worth noting:

1) The Grizzlies apparently wanted Sun tossed into the deal that brought Pau Gasol to L.A.  The Lakers, desiring to keep at least one of their overseas draftees, limited Memphis' bounty to Marc Gasol.   

2) Yue's English is pretty good, a MAJOR plus for a player looking to find a comfort zone on and off the court.  It's never easy starting a new job.  Think about being the new dude at the office when everyone else is speaking Swahili.  Mitch contrasted Yue's situation to that of Slava Medvendenko, who came America understanding no English at all.  On one hand, Yue's ability with the local tongue does rob fans of classic interviews such as this one. But if you're thinking strictly along practical purposes, Yue is armed with a serious advantage.  (While digging up the Bill MacDonald-Slava exchange, I stumbled across a couple of gems from the 2001 and 2002 championship parades.  Chick never could get that whole "Medvendenko" thing down pat.  I miss Chick.)

3) Aside from "Monkey King," you can feel free to call Yue "Q-Tip."  I'm assuming it's a reference to the lad's spiky hair, but who knows, maybe he's a seriously ginormous fan of A Tribe Called Quest. (On a semi-related note, I saw ATCQ about 9-10 years ago at The House of Blues and Shaq ended up stage diving.  I've never been more grateful not to be in the front row of a concert.)

Enjoy.

AK

 
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Although I like his name, Sun didn't show me anything in the olympics to suggest he'll be an impact playa in the NBA, at least not for the next few seasons.

The lakers lack defensive ability at the G position, and at SG once kobey sits. Seeing Sasha get burned by Ray A, seeing Farmar ineffective vs. Boston, and knowing that Sun is a few years away from NBA-level play, and looking at a decrepit Fischer, the picture does not look good.

But in PHX, the guard situation has not looked this good since KJ, Kidd and NASH all played on the same team.

Once again I have beaten AK to this news! Haha!

See Butler why people look down on you (the lakers blog) Kidd and Nash NEVER played on the same team (show me please or else don't try me).

-blitz

A Riddle for Butler:

What do a jilted bride on her wedding day and Amare Stoudamire have in common?

BRING SLAVA BACK!

GO LAKERS!

So sayeth Slava, "I LOVE L.A!"

GO LAKERS!

Butler sez

"But in PHX, the guard situation has not looked this good since KJ, Kidd and NASH all played on the same team...

...and managed to fail the city of Phoenix for the umpteenth time by failing to win it's first NBA Championship

This seems like a good place to mention that Goran Dragic is now officially a PHOENIX SUN. He signed the deal and all that's left now is total domination of the NBA.

From Paul Coro of AZcentral:

Dragic is expected to join the team's voluntary scrimmages Tuesday.

The Suns are planning on the 22-year-old point guard to immediately slip into the rotation as Steve Nash's backup. He has been in Phoenix for about a month after his buyout negotiations were completed but was limited to working out rather than playing because he did not have a contract.

Holy Cripes Butler...what do you sit around all day after you get home from school pushing F5 hoping for a new post to come up so you can be the first to post your nonsense?

While you are right that Kidd, KJ and Nash all where on the Suns what you do not mention is that Nash was warming the bench behind Kidd and KJ his rookie season and then warming the bench behind Kidd and Cassell before being sent to Dallas.

I'm not even going to waste time responding to the rest of your comment...that sheer and utter idiocy of it makes my eyes bleed.

In their time together, how many championships did KJ, Kidd and Nash win together?

This is just filler until training camp. I've been to enough Lakers events to know most of what Mitch ends up saying publically is either yesterday's news or irrelavent. It may be something we've never heard before but usually ends up being meaningless.

I think we'd all love for a player like Sun to be a surprisingly good addition b/c that is just like "found money". Gravy. But it's not likely to be the case.

I'm looking forward to the first season in quite some time where the Lakers just come out and impose their will on the league. Can't wait.

repost

Aloha Mike,

“Eddie Jones was not decent?”

Jones was good defensively, but not like a Penny, Wade or Young Kobe. I get your point nevertheless.

“If you recall Shaq was taking a lot of heat for not winning it all in L.A and then Kobe matures into a super star and Da DA!! Three peat.”

I’m not sure if it was solely kobe “maturing” rather guys around the league joining the shaq bandwagon. I could be wrong, but that’s what I remember.

“Michael Jordon couldnt do it until the Bulls added another super star in Pippin. The Spurs did it with a dominate Duncan and 2 other all stars. Detroit had 5 all stars. But somehow you always contend that Kobe was suppose to do it alone, why?”

I’ve never said that shaq did it alone. Shaq was the #1 and kobe was the #2. I’ve had a problem with this blog trying to re-write history by saying shaq and kobe were equals. That is simply not true. The offense ran through shaq, not kobe. In 2003 and 2004, kobe tried to take the #1 from shaq which caused the “feud” and my resentment towards kobe.

“Would you concede that San Antonio and Boston play a little better defense then Denver?”

Without a doubt. My point is that I would have like to see someone shine like Jordan making a name of guys like BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr and Jimbo/Johnny Paxon. Hell, shaq made a name for Kobe before kobe became the air apparent. Granted, kobe was on his way anyway, but playing next to shaq and in LA elevated kobe’s status which kobe pooped all over by talking smack about shaq and smack about the lakers. In spite of this, LA fans (more specifically, kobe fans) still blindly support kob. Go figure.

“See we now have a very good team. Kobe led us to the finals, rather easily I might add.”

Kobe compared himself to Jordan. Jordan won each and every finals as the #1 guy. Kobe is 0 for 1 as the #1 guy. Shaq is 3 for 3 as the #1 guy and 1 for 1 as the #2 guy. To be continued.

“Now I am very optimistic about this year.”

Me too as long as kobe remembers how he made it back to the finals. I hope kobe learns to elevate other’s game and not just his own.

I sincerely enjoy the chat. Mahalo.

K-buddies: I don't follow the blog as closely as i use to, but wanted to ask if i'm violating parole? I don't aways know what post gets deleted and figure if i'm still around, all is good in blog land.

All bloggers: if you posted me a message on "Dillbeck" i haven't had time to respond. I'll do my very best to respond even if i'm being beat down (cough,sneeze, cough...lakergurl <-- joke poking fun at myself).

If i'm not mistaken, we have we not won a title since Slava left... Curse of the Medvedenko anyone? What is that guy doing these days? Can't we bring him back?

Gabe Slava is out of a job after doing nothing for Atlanta

-blitz

Butler

'But in PHX, the guard situation has not looked this good since KJ, Kidd and NASH all played on the same team.'

and who got all the splinters in their butt on that team?

KL good to see you I was feeling guilty

Let's talk about Sun, and not about Shaq...."history...is like an angel being blown backwards into the future....." (Laurie Anderson, from one of her songs....)....what it means, sometimes I think I have it figured out, other times I think I'm way off...

Good move by Mitch to hunker down and not let Sun go, probably at the time they were both question marks to ever come to the US, but, this is one time when I think he defied the rule of when in doubt, always go with the bigger player....look, he risked upsetting Pau, even, we don't know that, but maybe Pau and Marc wanted to play together, but when it comes down to it, they all know it's a business.
Yes, we know Sun is probably at least 2 years away from being a consistent contributor, he may play between now and then and he may have those moments, but people give him time...I personally think he has "it", I think he has more than he has shown, playing under the control of the Chinese national team, filtered down to ABA, even in ABA he was probably controlled. Look at him, does he look scared??? I think not, I think he looks confident. He may not have Kobe athleteic ability, but with work, hopefully he can stay on the court. His jumpers look fine to me, and with his height, even if he has a slow release he should not be stuffed. Like I said, less 3's, the Lakers consistently went over their quota last year...so don't knock his 3. Yes I know the 3 helps spread the court, but as I see it, driving the lane and with option to handoff to AB, or Gasol, or Kobe lurking the baseline, or corner, or 4th player in 3-land, he can either take it to the hoop for his proven 2 handed dunks, pull up for the short jumper, or do the handoff....or pass out to the 3 shooter....let's hope he gets knocked on his ass a few times going to the hoop, because that will wake him up, and will make him a better player....

KL,

You simply don't remember what happened in 2001 an 2002. Shaq was clearly the No. 1 guy in 2000, but in 2001 and 2002 they were equals.

And the Shaq-Kobe feud started in 2001 when Kobe's game improved dramatically and Shaq and Kobe began to feud over the alpha-dog status.

AK,

It needs to be said that Mitch Kupchak is doing an excellent job as the Lakers general manager.
Wading through the paperwork and politics to get Sun to the USA required a deft and delicate hand. One of the qualities that Mitch has displayed consistently since he took over for Jerry has been utmost respect for the players. It’s why I don’t worry about negotiations with Kobe or Drew ruffling anybody’s feathers. Mitch is too smart and professional to allow that to occur.

>>>>>Memphis also wanted Sun in the trade, but we wanted to keep at least one of those
>>>>>2 guys so Memphis wanted Marc and we are happy that we were able to keep Sun Yue,
>>>>>because we liked him when we drafted him. Ronnie Lester went to Singapore in January
>>>>>to watch him play and indicated that he would continue to be considered a prospect,
>>>>>as he played well.

Some interesting comments from Mitch. Sun Yue and the second round pick (which may be like a late first round pick considering Memphis will stink) that Mitch got from the Grizzlies could turn out to be surprises that nobody expected.

>>>>>He's got a bounce to his step, he's got energy. I think our players won't have any
>>>>>problem embracing him. Now of course he's got to make the team and he's got to
>>>>>earn their respect so he may get the rookie treatment for the first month of the season.
>>>>>But if he earns his way, from my being around him based on his personality, I don't
>>>>>think he'll have any problem.

That bounce and energy are part of why I think Sun Yue has a chance to be a player. It is part of what is missing from Yao and Yi, who are both boringly stoic in demeanor. Sun Yue may fit better in the NBA than previous Chinese players.

>>>>>I spoke to Kobe last week, because Team USA played against China and Kobe said
>>>>>that he knew who the guy was. He said he was competitive and feisty and he did not
>>>>>back down. I know that he's athletic enough. I like his size, I like his skill level. I think
>>>>>he's a ball handling guard at 6'8". Those are all positives, but he hasn't played at this
>>>>>level and I think he'll show well, but the NBA is a different game. He'll face challenges
>>>>>he hasn't faced before, but I don’t think he'll back down. I think he'll embrace the
>>>>>challenge and at the end of the day if the guy is good enough after 28 days of training
>>>>>camp (and pre-season), we'll know it and he'll make the team. It's not something that
>>>>>will be ferreted out in a week or 2, maybe some guys will know in a week if they're
>>>>>good enough, but if you're with the team for 28 days, we'll know and he'll know
>>>>>too (if he's good enough).

While Sun will have to prove himself, I get a strong sense that Mitch thinks he may have a steal by getting the kid in the second round. Mitch also considers Sun Yue to be “a ball handling guard at 6'8".” This kid’s future is at the point, not at shooting guard or small forward. Don’t know what to say about Q-Tip, LOL. At any rate, it will be fun seeing if Sun Yue has game enough to play in the NBA.

Tom

humanomaly,

Apologies to Pig and Otis but there’s no reason why we can’t “gush” about Sun Yue on a Sun Yue thread, is there? I agree with you 100% that Sun Yue will be a player. I think there is a better chance that he will be our point guard of the future than Jordan Farmar. I also think that there is no way he will NOT make the final roster. Here are my reasons why:

(1) Height and length – there is no better fit for a tall point guard than the Triangle Offense. Sun’s legitimate 6-8 height will enable him to post up smaller guards in the paint on offense and to intimidate and make it difficult for small point guards to get good shots off.

(2) Ball handling and passing skills – Sun already possesses NBA quality ball handling and passing skills, which are the primary responsibilities of point guards. This is what will enable him to come in and play well even in sparse moments as a rookie.

(3) Shot blocking skills – While Sun still needs to work on not getting beaten off the dribble, he has already shown he has outstanding shot blocking instincts and skills. There must be a dozen YouTubes showing Sun blocking shots by Dwight Howard, Mike Conley, and other NBAers.

(4) Shooting skills – I think Sun will evolve into an outstanding 3-point shooter as well as an aggressive driver who can finish strong in the paint and dunk over people. His stroke is much more fluid and natural than Lamar Odom’s, for example. In time, he could become a deadeye shooter for the Lakers, ala Gail Goodrich.

Anyway, I’m half Chinese so I have to root for Sun Yue. Just me and a billion fans in China. More Jet Li. More Bruce Lee. More Brandon Lee. Tomorrow’s Lakers may be the Rottweiler, the Beast, and the Monkey King. LOL.


Tom

KL

"Have you considered that Jordan gave his guys confidence?"

No not until Jordan got Pippen did those guys become more comfortable (and Phil Jackson). Cartwright was the starting center in New York until Patrick Ewing came when his production went down.

Kobe as "the man" record so far

04-05: 32-50 Missed Playoffs
05-06: 45-37 Eliminated by Phoenix Suns 4-3
06-07: 42-40 Eliminated by Phoenix Suns 4-1
07-08: 57-25 Beaten in NBA Finals by Boston Celtics 4-2

Jordan's first 4 years

85: 38-44 Swept by Milwaukee Bucks 3-0
86: 30-52 Swept by Boston Celtics 3-0
87: 40-42 Swept by Boston Celtics 3-0
88: 50-32 Eliminated by Detroit Pistons 4-1

Can't make the argument that "Jordan was a rookie and was learning the NBA". Jordan was the Sports Player of the Year twice in North Carolina. Jordan, the greatest guard in NBA History still got swept 3 times in the playoffs and didn't win 50-32 until Pippen and Grant got drafted in 87-88.

"Kobe compared himself to Jordan."

Show the exact Quote. NO don't say "oh he did" that is just as believable as Robin Lopez being the next Tim Duncan. And it must say "I'm like Mike" and not some media (Stephen A. Smith) doing it for him. IN fact Kobe even said he wasn't Jordan"

http://tinyurl.com/4kqbln

"Without a doubt. My point is that I would have like to see someone shine like Jordan making a name of guys like BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr and Jimbo/Johnny Paxon."

You probably haven't seen my debates with Hobbitmage but the only reason why Kerr and Paxon even got playing time was because PIPPEN was able to play the point.
He disliked playing with Sam Vincent and Steve Colter for this very reason. The reason why was because they were in the lane too much, and Jordan wanted to be the one to drive to the basket. The only logical choice would be that Jordan play the point and put a spot up shooter at the shooting guard slot. However, Jordan hated playing point guard (though it was arguably the position best suited for him since other point guards couldn't defend him , not even Isiah Thomas) and lacked point guard skills. So in order to have Jordan play shooting guard, the point guard must be a spot up shooter (Fish for Kobe, Paxon/Kerr/Harper for Jordan) and have someone else play the point (Pippen). Neither Paxon, Kerr, nor BJ Armstrong would have suceeded anywhere as the starting point guard. Don't believe me still? Try Derek Fisher. Fish left LA to try to run the point guard slot in Golden State. However he lacked real point guard skills and was replaced by Baron Davis. The Warriors then traded Fish to Utah and because Ronnie Brewer wasn't that good and they had Deron Williams, Fish had to start at shooting guard even though he's 6'1! After the season ends he comes back to LA and with Kobe and guess what happens? Fish is back to being a starter at the point guard slot and has a solid year.

And BJ Armstrong, then why did BJ Armstrong get his ONLY All Star selection when Jordan was playing Baseball? Because he was able to run the point because he was able to run the point (since Pippen was the man) and guess who replaced Jordan? CBA's own Pete Myers. (You don't replace a great like Jordan with Myers and get a 55 win season!). Myers though was a spot up shooter and yet with Pippen running the team the Bulls got a 55-27 record. When Jordan came back, BJ Armstrong gets selected in the expansion draft (the Bulls wilingly let him go since he felt like a starter but wasn't the exact fit for the Triangle Offense).

In other words it takes more than just "individual" greatness, it takes the right system.

"I’ve had a problem with this blog trying to re-write history by saying shaq and kobe were equals. "

2000-2002 Season Shaq was the man. No one here doubts that and anyone who does (haven't seen any) is misinformed. 2002-2003 Kobe took charge of the Lakers after the Lakers went 13-18 thanks to Shaq and his "I got hurt on company time so I'll heal on company time". As a result the Lakers went 37-14 during that run and finished 50-32. Kobe got his best season statistically with 30ppg 7 rpg 6 apg and 2.2 steals per game and was the first time he got to both the 1st Defensive All Team and 1st All NBA. Kobe also improved Shaq that year and that year was the ONLY year that Shaq shot 62.2% on his free throws. In the playoffs, had Phil not have that surgery combined with Horry's miss (and being 5th seed) led to the Lakers not winning the title.

I"’m not sure if it was solely kobe “maturing” rather guys around the league joining the shaq bandwagon. I could be wrong, but that’s what I remember."

Kobe was maturing. The Lakers roster was left largely intact from 1998-1999. Some guys like Eddie Jones and Dennis Rodman had left the team before PJ arrived. Only Ron Harper was the only significant arrival in LA when the 1st Championship (he came because he would have the same job as he did in Chicago, spot up defending point guard). Kobe matured and became the side kick for Shaq.

Xodus here's the "leads" during the Shaq-Kobe years.

1999-2000: Shaq
2000-2001: Shaq
2001-2002: Shaq with Kobe playing a co lead role (only time that both co existed peacefully with both trying to be number 1)
2002-2003: Kobe
2003-2004: Shaq versus Kobe versus Gary Payton (All 3 wanted the lead, yes Payton wanted the lead aka during a press conference "I'm being disrespected ")

I understand that while KL feels that Shaq's accomplishments is being belittled by this blog, understand that most of us (yes there are some people who praise dumb ideas like Kwa-may's calves) will always remember what Shaq did for us and nothing can belittle that. That being said, Kobe is the one here in charge and while he has had his problems in the past he's the leader of the Lakers and thanks to great coaching combined with a great FO got us to the NBA Finals after being eliminated by the Suns 4-1 in the First Round. Kobe still had at least 4-5 years of greatness within him and time will only tell how great he will be.

-blitz

Blitz,

I agree, no one belittles Shaq's accomplishments. We, like the Orlando Magic and Heat fans, just see past Shaq's funny quotes and see that he's not what he appears to be. That doesn't take anything away from what he did as a player. Just like KL's personal feelings about Kobe shouldn't take away from Kobe as a player.

Xodus

I agree.

-blitz

blitz said "Gabe Slava is out of a job after doing nothing for Atlanta"

Actually, the reason Slava's no longer playing is because his back never properly healed after his disc surgery. He gave it a shot with Atlanta but was still in a lot of pain. He got offers to play euro ball after that but turned them down because he felt he wasn't able to perform at the level he wanted to.

Laker's nation still turns its lonely eyes to the Ukranian shooting 'bot.

I have no IDEA where did KL got his information that we here in this BLOG is BELITTLING SHAQ's accomplishments... totally unfounded...

Grow up KL... you are like 5 years old kid who's imagining things...

Shaq HAS BEEN a lakers player. And BIG part of lakers Successful franchise...

Go Lakers!

Go Kobe!

Laker Tom, you know I'm a double your % Chinese , but am always cautiously optimistic about Sun being able to make the team; and who knows it can go either way, and I'll be very frustrated if the teamates ( esp. those American teamates who also compete with him to make the team )don't embracehim because he's a Chinese, it would affect his performance.Bottom line is he has to earn their respect in order to survive, but he is a smart guy,he is likable in LA ( with a gigantic Chinese community backing him up ),he will be fine. BTW,I just learned that you live in the Bay area, not in LA ( or you used to live here . ) ?

Aloha K.L

Just a couple of things. First your memory is rather weak it appears. In Eddie Jones last full year Shaq had Horry, Fox, Fisher, a decent back up in Eldon Campell and a pretty good point guard in Van Exel. what happened? They lost to the team with 2 super stars, Stockton and Malone. Kind of supports what I have been saying.

As far as making others shine, again you must have missed a lot of games last year. I think Jordon Farmar led the team in last second shots, and Sasha was close. The guys you pointed out on the bulls hit some big playoff shots but never really had huge overall games like Pau, Odom and Shasa had during these playoffs. Besides Jordons playoff scoring average is 33 ppg with 5.7 assists and Kobes is 30ppg with 5.6 assists. They both fed their teamates equally and both scored alot, because that was what they were asked to do for their teams.

Lastly K.L I think the blog has passed you by. I dont know if you were reading it in exile but if you weren't you would have noticed that the topics everyone was talking about was:

Will Bynum be healthy and pick up were he left off?
Can Odom transiton to the 3 or will he come off the bench?
How will Pau and Andrew play together?
Will Ariza come back strong, can he shoot well enough to star?
Will Jordon take another big step like he did last year?
How good will Sun Yue be?

These are just some of the things people were talking about I can assure you almost nobody was really talking about Kobe except in the olympic context and maybe his pinky once in a while. But no one was talking Shaq/Kobe because most of us moved on from that. You should try out some of these other topics you might like them.

MH

LakerTom,

How have you been? You're right about Mitch's cranium....Anderson School of Business, UCLA MBA program,...from what I heard, my workmate went, a total turnaround from our working degrees, he went, I didn't...I think I should have gone as well. Like I said, I hate my job, but it pays the bills...will be on going through bay area twice in the next few weeks, I'll be watching the streets for you Tom.....have you noticed as the season nears, there are a few new posters than the usual bunch. I know I am a newbie, but I've been on the Laker bandwagon since the 60's....I watch their games when I get home (beta to vhs to dvr....) win or lose. Also, most will agree with you that Jordan Farmar is our one of the future, however, let it play out, remember, I noticed Sun is one year older, and 8 inches taller...I like the idea of the offense that doesn't constrain the player, which is why we have so many versatile multiple position players, obviously, the triangle offense does not box you into one slot.....so maybe down the road, they can both be on the court at the same time, alot. (I know, not a good word to use).....

Hey, everyone, it's ok to talk about whatever you want, but IMHO it's nice to drop a comment related to the blog topic....

My thought out of the blue...the Laker's have that Sunday white uniform for home losses (they always seem to lose those games, KBBlitz, help me out here, what's their home record since wearing Sunday whites? (I admire your stats skills)....I think they should have a black road uniform like the one Kobe wore on the cover of Slam a few years ago, or how about a blue that is so dark, it almost looks black, a pearlescent effect....

hman

LakerTom,

half-Chinese?....may I ask, what's the other half?

Me, 100% Chinese....

I never did this, but I always wanted to take exact geographical location of Los Angeles, and find out what is truly on the exact opposite side of the world.....this fascination of mine obviously came from watching those cartoons, as a kid (2 years ago) where they dig so deep, they come up in China?

hman.

Thekobebryantblitz

Comparing kobe’s first 4 year and jordan’s first four years is a red herring. It was a good try though.

“Show the exact Quote.”

I really don’t have time, but the sports illustrated documented the “there are only two real killers in this league” quote by a 19-year-old kobe. I’m not going to argue the obvious. I’m not sure how long you’ve been following the lakers, but it was very clear cut. I’m sure someone can vouch for me.

“2002-2003 Kobe took charge of the Lakers after the Lakers went 13-18 thanks to Shaq and his "I got hurt on company time so I'll heal on company time".”

You’ve made my point. The laker team wasn’t for kobe to take. Period. End of story. Your view is what started the “family feud” when survey said: kobe traded championship opportunities for individualism. You’re typical of kobe apologist who’ll make excuses for kobe. You have every right and I have every right to disagree.

“Kobe was maturing.”

Young padwan (that’s for you Godfather Mamba24), kobe didn’t mature until this year. Nice try.

how quickly we forget the crying like a little girl last summer.

“understand that while KL feels that Shaq's accomplishments is being belittled by this blog”

Young grasshopper, you're a pup compared to the people I use to battle.


Dice8up

“have no IDEA where did KL got his information that we here in this BLOG is BELITTLING SHAQ's accomplishments... totally unfounded...”

I never said this. All I said is this blog of kobe apologist tries to re-write history. I do not feel sorry for shaq, kobe or any other nba player who plays a game and makes hundreds of thousands (millions in most cases) while use fans have to dish out 2 bills for cheap seats and snacks (all in after transportation)

“Grow up KL... you are like 5 years old kid who's imagining things...”

Diceman, I only wish I was 5 again. Good times.


Aloha Mike

“Lastly K.L I think the blog has passed you by. I dont know if you were reading it in exile but if you weren't you would have noticed that the topics everyone was talking about was:”

I’d check on an off to see if I was still banned. You very well may be right. I like to chat about stuff that interests me. I’m not forcing anybody to respond. I scroll pass a lot of post due to boredom.

“But no one was talking Shaq/Kobe because most of us moved on from that. You should try out some of these other topics you might like them.”

To be honest, I’ve long moved on, but I get to call out bloggers who try and re-write history or whippersnappers who don’t have context about b-ball and who overweight individualism over team success. Don’t get me wrong, when I was a kid, I was fascinated by the dunks fest between Jordan domnic wilkins. When I matured, I cared about the team aspect of the game.

Nice chat to all.

repost to severl bloggers whom i responded in the previous thread.

Kiwi:
“Anyway no problem.I used to enjoy sparring with you but it appears you've lost your touch so I wont bother in the future.Might be time to find a new hobby KL.You've lost your credibility here as a villan with any edge.”

Sorry to disappoint. I really don’t have the time I use to and I’m on parole by the k-buddies. I recall you were one blogger I didn’t do the “schtick” and i look forward to having spirited conversations in the future. Next time I won’t be as nice. Haha.

“Your washed up,take a seat on the Suns bench pal... right beside your buddy Shaq.You can reminisce about the glory days when you were both relevant.”

LMAO. Haha….funny. BTW, i can take the punishment. i've taken much, much more from this blog.


Thekobebryantblitz:
“Not defending KL, just stating that there has been worst than him.”

Um…thanks?


Xodus:
“No one tries to act as if Kobe is perfect (well, maybe pfunk36 does), but for you to act as if you don't understand why a lot of Lakers fans hate Shaq is beyond me.

I really don’t understand the “haterade” for shaq. Shaq was the most recent laker to bring a championship to LA (actually, the only 3-peat in laker history) and the dude’s vilified because kobe wanted to be the man instead of being a legend like Magic. I’m certain my view isn’t isolated. It use to be on this blog a negative opinion about kobe would get shouted down. Now the neo-blog is a place where people like vaasa and myself can openly express opinions without fear of being called names. It’s refreshing.

“I mean, you can't seriously tell me that there isn't SOMETHING going on if three NBA cities despise Shaq.”

AK, pointed this out and I’ve changed my position on shaq.

steven V:
“Please provide me and the rest of the Lakers Blog with direct quotes, web site media articles, archived newspaper articles, or even a Youtube video showing Kobe comparing himself as Jordan.”

http://tinyurl.com/5o7rla

Sports illustrated circa 1999.


LTLF:
“Kobe started off the series shooting well, but as his teammates failed and continued to fail, it allowed Boston to clamp down more and more on Kobe and his shooting got progressively worse. Once again, it's not Kobe who compares himself to Jordan, but since YOU continue to push that argument, let's look at how the guys around Jordan did in his first finals:

1991 finals -
Scottie Pippen - 50.4% shooting
Horace Grant - 58.3% shooting
Bill Cartwright - 51.9% shooting
John Paxson - 53% shooting
BJ Armstrong - 50% shooting
Craig Hodges - 42% shooting
Will Perdue - 54.7% shooting
Cliff Levingston - 51.2% shooting”

Have you considered that Jordan gave his guys confidence? Jordan made names out of no-names like Cartwright and Livingston? That’s my main point between the true greats and kobe. True greats know how to elevate the play of others. I’ll give you an example, my high school coach is a great coach because he saw that I lacked confidence. On day after practice, coach said to me “KL, I want you to the 6th man and the defensive stopper”. That gave me confidence to work on my game and be the defensive stopper. To this day, I’m better that defense than offense mostly because I worked like hell to be the “defensive stopper”. Imagine if the star of my team told me the same thing and lobbied coach? Get it?


Posted by: KL | September 22, 2008 at 05:46 PM

Bah,

Abdur-Rahim retired. Why couldn't he have retired with us and we could have paid only half of Odom's salary for Artest? We could be paying 15M less in luxury taxes, maybe even kept Ronny.

http://tinyurl.com/3ejge7

Shum,

regarding acceptance of Sun by teammates...you earn it by what you do on the court...

...Larry Bird, although he came into the league with a greater fanfare proved his game throughout the league, not just to his teammates by his play...being in Boston, a team that probably had a greater number of caucasian players than other teams at the time (my memory/assumption) wasn't the reason he succeeded, look at others around his era of caucasan background on the same team that did not succeed to become supertstars....Rick Carlisle as a player, Michael Smith who is or was a Clipper announcer, and a few others come to my mind, give me a break, it's almost 3 am....

Shum, you have this sense of pessimism I sense that you already are fearing failure for Sun. Don't go there. There are hundreds each year that don't make it. Sun has 2 years guaranteed, and though that wil go quick, he'll make it. Like I said, Sasha was practically worthless for 3 years, until last year, his 4th....then whammo...he's the next Mike Miller...but is more irritating on D'. (I said irritating, not better).

hman (hitman?....naaahhhhh....)

laker_sth....

geez...

"I think we'd all love for a player like Sun to be a surprisingly good addition b/c that is just like "found money". Gravy. But it's not likely to be the case."

....just because of your opinion, I'm going to have to contact Mitch and PJ, and Jerry, and Jimmy, and Jeannie..and tell them to not waste the per diem and housing fee and tape for his ankles....you must know something we don't know....hmmmmm.....what is it....let me think....a 6 foot 9 inch point guard, who held his own on the Chinese national team, for his age of 22, from a country of 1.3 Billion people.....what is it???? How'd you figure it out, and why tell us all so soon that he's gonna be a waste....what's the secret???? Do you have any stock tips, or future lottery numbers??? I'm just as willing to hunker down with you and put my money where my mouth is. Epiphany time, don't Rush, pun intended...3 brothers, only 1/2 made it so far, and the future failure we will watch...do we agree, Kansas' Rush...STUD or DUD?

man, I'm starting to think more about hitman movies...

hman....

...like I said "time and space"...let's go watch some Star Trek....do you remember Fisher as a rookie, 2nd, 3rd year player, he was like Wade in a mirror, Wade falls on his face, Fish was falling on his A, cuz he was trying to draw charges...he couldn't shoot for sheet until he had an injury and was out for a while then he came back with his shot mechanics totally redone, the arch was much higher, the footwork ritualistically precise, the follow through with form and confidence....so there's plenty of people out there that wanna throw Sun under the bus, (cuz he's Chinese?, nah....people aren't like that, are they?) before he has even had a chance to be chewed out and given the "stink eye" (Hawaiian slang="dagger eye") by Kobe, when he f's up, and they all do, you gotta fall before you stand, then walk, so on so forth.....3:25, Adidas....I mean't Adios (trivia time: the guy who started Adidas, I think his name was Adi Dassler, or something like that, was brothers with the guy that started Puma, and no I don't think his name was Pumi Dassler, and they were not fond of each other, just a rumor I heard and looked up and verifed, I think....drugs, more drugs....)

AK,

sorry to bother the blog, I'll be quiet for a while, vacation, but about Sun's spiky hair, Chinese can have all kinds of hair, spiky, flat,...mine is wavy and I still have it in my 5th decade, but it's as fine as when I was his age (not spiky, could never stand straight up, but will stand up in all different directions), people ask me if I got "a perm"....I just tell them "Yeah" to F with them, I am vain....so I gotta maintain that image. My other generalization is Chinese tend to have less body hair, like on arms, and legs, underarms, other places...from my personal experience(s) if they have any body hair it is finer, not as coarse as say a Japanese person. I'm gonna catch flak, so I'll end it here....

again....

Lakertom, i agree a hundred percent...anyone trying to argue that Mitch hasnt done a fantastic job is insane.Its beyond fantastic its absolutely legendary.

He quietly chipped away at it for those bleak years and didnt panic despite ridiculous amounts of pressure from fans,media, and Kobe.It was clear where he was trying to go...but part of the formula had to be a certain amount of patience.

Anyway good post once again

Anyway, I’m half Chinese so I have to root for Sun Yue. Just me and a billion fans
in China. More Jet Li. More Bruce Lee. More Brandon Lee. Tomorrow’s Lakers may
be the Rottweiler, the Beast, and the Monkey King. LOL.
Tom Posted by: LakerTom | September 22, 2008 at 07:04 PM

Hey! Don't forget Shannon Lee lakerTom. LOL!

KL,

Shaq is 3 for 5 as the number one guy. 3 for 4 in LA, and 0 for 1 in Orlando.

--Fearless

If memory serves me correctly...

"Anyway, I’m half Chinese so I have to root for Sun Yue. "

It couldn't have happened to a better guy.

--Fearless

michael h,

Not talking about Kobe anymore would force him to come up with a new shtick. That''s too much work.

Don't underestimate the importance of Chris Mihm to the rotations - if he is not healthy/the injuries had a permanent effect, then the Lakers don't have a backup center. That forces the use of Gasol into that role, which he is quite good at, but that, in turn, means that Lamar has to play a lot of PF, which means he doesn't play much SF.

That is not necessarily a bad thing, but an unhealthy Mihm would force the hand of the coaching staff to a significant degree.

Good morning CRUE! Another fantastic day in Lakerland.

I also watched Sun play in the Olympics, and while there were flashes of brilliance, I'm also thinking it may be a year or so until he's an actual important, full-fledged contributor to this team. However, waxing eternally optimistic I hope he pulls out an awesome year from the git-go! I would love to see that - and I know I'm not alone here!

That being said, I can't wait for this season to begin. How many days left?? I NEED MY FIX!!!!!!!!!!!

GO LAKERS!

BTW - why are we not starving the troll? Isn't it about time the poor little guy got back to school?

KL said: "Shaq is 3 for 3 as the #1 guy and 1 for 1 as the #2 guy."

Is this a simple case of amnesia or are you PURPOSELY ignoring the Orlando Magic years when Diesel was 0 for whatever and the pre-Phil years when he was 0 for 3 as the #1 guy?

Six days until training camp? Is that right?

GO LAKERS!

BTW - why are we not starving the troll? Isn't it about time the poor little guy got back
to school? Posted by: justanothermambafan | September 23, 2008 at 08:05 AM

D@mn Right! The poor idiot has already repeated 3rd grade 3 times and he almiost
made it last time until he started spending so much time on the Blog. So leave the
lil fella alone and he'll go back and finish 3rd grade and make us all proud.

Six days until training camp? Is that right? GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 23, 2008 at 08:44 AM

If it's not that was a hell of a weekend I had. lol!

utzworld -

KL is conveniently only counting finals appearances.

KL, I think what you're missing in all of this is how deeply flawed Jordan was as a human being. Say what you want about Kobe, but he never PUNCHED a teammate during practice, did he? Sounds like a great guy to play with. The ONLY reason Jordan was deified to the degree that he was was the time he played in combination with his skills. Jordan's ascension came just as the glory 80s were ending, and the league was looking for something new to excite fans. Riles in NY was boring, grinding basketball - not something anyone outside of the Tri-State area was excited about watching. Then, ESPN starts playing Jordan highlights left and right, and his mystique gets bigger and bigger - soon, we recognize him just by his silhouette. The fact is, Jordan had an army of journalists and officials who were practically on the payroll to make him look good. Anything negative was swept under the rug - gambling? They sent Pete Rose to jail, but hardly anyone knows Jordan was involved in a gambling scandal. Marital infidelity? Kobe gets crucified for cheating on his wife, but again with Jordan it's hardly ever mentioned. Jordan punches Kerr? Funny how few people know that happened. If Kobe did that he would have been suspended for a year and lost all his endorsements, and I guarantee he never would have been allowed to make a movie with Bugs Bunny. Meanwhile, Kobe has a more antagonistic relationship with the media - everything he does and says is spun in the worst possible light. He can't even act like he wants to win MVP. How sick is this? There's an award, but we're not going to give it to you unless you pretend like you don't want it. What is the freaking deal? When did all this crap about "team ball" come about? Why did people think it was cool when Iceman scored 23948237 points in the last game of the season to try to win the scoring title, but now if a dude shows the slightest interest in that, he's a punk? Chocolate Thunder named his own dunks and talked about people's mamas, and he's celebrated as an all-time great. Someone else dares to show self-confidence when he's 19 years old, and he's shunned his entire career??

Trying to compare Kobe and Jordan will never work, for the simple fact that Jordan was manufactured into the personification of basketball by the establishment, the same establishment that Kobe has always been torn down by. Fools like KL who don't know they've been manipulated will always drink the Kool-Aid and proclaim that Jordan was the greatest.

By the way, I will admit that Jordan was the greatest of all time the day you can point out to me how he started at center in Game 6 of the Finals during his rookie season and scored 42 points and grabbed 15 rebounds. Until then, I think we all know who is the greatest.

"steven V:
“Please provide me and the rest of the Lakers Blog with direct quotes, web site media articles, archived newspaper articles, or even a Youtube video showing Kobe comparing himself as Jordan.”

http://tinyurl.com/5o7rla

Sports illustrated circa 1999."

So the reference to "There's only two real killers in this league" would mean that Kobe compared himself to Jordan?

I believe that there is confusion on what was meant by this statement.
All Kobe is saying is that he has the same mentality that MJ had.
I think people are misinterpreting this statement to mean that Kobe is saying "I am as great or I am better then MJ".

I see more of an association of mentalities and not the comparison that others (more specifically the media) are portraying. what happens is writers write and article based off a statement. They place their definition in that article and sell it to the public. Then those people who are part of the public (and not use to thinking for themselves) will accept the second hand explanation and definition that is given to them.

Although there may be people who think Kobe "compares" himself to MJ, based on a statement made 9 years ago. We have look at the present day facts and accept Kobe Bryant's recent statement of ""I don't want to be compared to Michael Jordan," and "Let me be me."

Kobe never compared himself to Jordan.


KL,

We don't hate Shaq for ANYTHING he did on the court. Our problems with Shaq are related to the fact that he was too lazy or arrogant to keep himself in and stop missing games on "company time." Seriously, if Shaq had kept himself in shape there would have been no question who "the man" was on the team. An in shape, motivated Shaq is arguably the best player ever, but we rarely saw that player after the 1999-00 season.

And the other reason we hate Shaq is the same reason Orlando Magic and Heat fans hate him as well. As soon as he leaves a team he acts as if he always hated everyone over there. He dissed Orlando for years after he signed with us, he dissed the Lakers every chance he got after he was traded and he ripped Pat Riley, Ricky Davis and that magnet for controversy Chris Quinn after he was traded. You and the larger part of the media seem to miss this, but the fans of all three of those teams remember and don't appreciate it. I grew up in Miami and I don't know a Heat fan who doesn't despise Shaq and I've met Orlando Magic fans and they can't stand him either.

You're probably in the minority of fans of Shaq's former teams who don't despise him.


If the last seat on the bench won't make or break the season, would you influence your GM to suit Sun Yu and add to your fan base and bottom line? Dumb question.

KL,

Be serious, was MJ giving his teammates confidence when he was punching Steve Kerr's lights out or when Bill Cartwright was threatening to break his legs if he kept up his verbal abuse?

Your ability to revise history is astounding.

By the way, I will admit that Jordan was the greatest of all time the day you can point out to
me how he started at center in Game 6 of the Finals during his rookie season and scored
42 points and grabbed 15 rebounds. Until then, I think we all know who is the greatest.
Posted by: SBPimp | September 23, 2008 at 09:32 AM

OUT FREAKING STANDING!! KUDOS

fearless/utz

"Shaq is 3 for 5 as the number one guy. 3 for 4 in LA, and 0 for 1 in Orlando."

you're 99.999999% correct. i forgot.

i don't count 2004, that's when kobe tried to be the #1 which caused us another championship.

in either case, i was wrong and appreciate the correction.

utz, nice to chat with you again. you're a stand-up blogger and i appreciate you keepin it real for us.

KL,

BTW, you say you want to be able to post without being called names, but you ONLY post when you have something negative to say. It would be one thing if you talked about other Laker or NBA-related topics but you're all Kobe, all the time. I mean it's a little over the top and ridiculous. I mean, you talk about him more than the rest of us.

None of us know what you think about Andrew Bynum's extension or if LO should come off the bench, but we definitely know that you think Kobe is a douche. Are you a Laker fan or a Kobe-hater?

Steven V,

I don't know if I've ever seen a weaker argument for Kobe comparing himself to MJ than seeing KL link to an article where the writer is the one pushing the MJ comparisons, not Kobe.

This is is probably weaker than KL's assertion that the NBA salary cap is something that can be easily circumvented if you REALLY want to. Kinda like how Santa is real to the kids who REALLY believe in him.

Humanomaly : you could easily read my mind, I really do have the sense of pessimism and am fearing the failure for Sun, he only has 2 years guaranteed, he will disappear quickly if he is not up to what we expected of him.

"By the way, I will admit that Jordan was the greatest of all time the day you can point out to me how he started at center in Game 6 of the Finals during his rookie season and scored 42 points and grabbed 15 rebounds. Until then, I think we all know who is the greatest."

CAN I GET AN AMEN??

I am sick and tired of all this "Jordan was the Greatest" crap, comparing Kobe to Jordan, blah blah blah. Magic could start at AND DOMINATE at all 5 positions, not to mention elevate his teammates, ressurect Kareem, save the NBA (along with Bird), win titles for Pat Riley and do it all with a meggawatt, infectious smile and an obvious joy for the game. If Kobe wants to be anyone, he should be Magic. Oh, and Butler? Nash is not worthy to hold Magic's towel and fetch his gatorade, let alone be mentioned in the same breath as "Greatest Point Guard of All Time".


A Tribe Called Quest is almost as awesome as Chick Hearn.

Forget Sun Yue. Sign Stephon Marbury!

"You’ve made my point. The laker team wasn’t for kobe to take. Period. End of story. Your view is what started the “family feud” when survey said: kobe traded championship opportunities for individualism. You’re typical of kobe apologist who’ll make excuses for kobe. You have every right and I have every right to disagree."

Nope it was Kobe's team for take, had Kobe not stepped up his game we would probably not have made the playoffs we would have not made the playoffs and we could have easily blamed Shaq even more for that late surgery and Kobe for not stepping up. Unfortunately you just doesn't want to see numbers when we were 11-19 and Shaq was struggling and Kobe stepped up and we went 39-13 to finish 50-32 when we should have at least gotten 4th seed to get home court advantage. But I won't argue too much with you seeing as you somewhat changed from last year. If you want to label me as an apologist go ahead, I'll just have you as someone who still stuck in the past.

It's a matter of opinion.

"how quickly we forget the crying like a little girl last summer."

I could say all men regardless of age does that but I don't want to get into philosophy here. Wasn't it Shaq who dissed Ricky Davis and the Miami Heat and was the one who called D-Wade "Wunderboy". The one who demanded touches this season while playing for the Heat and was suddenly fine with not having touches when traded to the Suns? Sounds like a complainer Shaq is. Don't get me wrong Kobe complained too and called Jerry Buss an "idiot". He did apologize to MItch and Andrew (privately)and is back on good terms with Buss as much as Shaq probably did apologize to the Heat and Pat Riley (privately).

"I never said this. All I said is this blog of kobe apologist tries to re-write history."

Uh huh. NO one disputes Shaq being the leader from 2000-2002. Kobe played second fiddle in those days and also played a co lead role in 2002. Kobe took over in 2002-2003 and with Shaq not complaining at first got the Lakers to a 38-14 run in January after 12-18 start with Shaq still out of shape from having the surgery too late. 2003-2004 both tried to be Alpha Dog (along with Payton) and it was instrumental in losing the title. That is not revisionism, that is fact.

And that quote from Sports Illustrated? Steve V is right, that doesn't compare Kobe to Jordan. I could say I have the same mentality as Jordan in trying to win, I do not mean I am Jordan. That is a fallacy to think that Kobe says he's the same as Jordan. He has always said Jordan and him are different, it's the fans that compare him to Jordan.

I understand that most stuff here in the blogs specifically the off season bores you (yea it does to me too). I just don't think that picking at old wounds is the stuff to keep the blog entertained.

-blitz

This is is probably weaker than KL's assertion that the NBA salary cap is something that can be easily circumvented if you REALLY want to. Kinda like how Santa is real to the kids who REALLY believe in him."

Xodus good point.

-blitz

Nah I still think Kareem is the greatest Laker and that includes being greater than Magic Man

-blitz

xodus,

chill dude, i'm just having a conversation. i'll knock off the kobe topic for a while okay?

as for AB, the dude shown glimps of what he can be, but the guy only played 1/4 of the season and i haven't seen him in the playoffs. this blog seems to be annointing Young Bynum as the next shaq. now that's lame, wouldn't you agree?

as for LO, i've never really liked him because he's too inconsistent. one day, LO is Scottie Pippen, the next day, LO's Chuck Nevitt (remember him?).

it's been fun chatting though.

AMEN!

CAN I GET AN AMEN??

I am sick and tired of all this "Jordan was the Greatest" crap, comparing Kobe to Jordan,
blah blah blah. Magic could start at AND DOMINATE at all 5 positions, not to mention elevate
his teammates, ressurect Kareem, save the NBA (along with Bird), win titles for Pat Riley and
do it all with a meggawatt, infectious smile and an obvious joy for the game. If Kobe wants to
be anyone, he should be Magic. Oh, and Butler? Nash is not worthy to hold Magic's towel and
fetch his gatorade, let alone be mentioned in the same breath as "Greatest Point Guard of All Time".
posted by: Badfinger | September 23, 2008 at 10:22 AM

AMEN AGAIN!!

"chill dude, i'm just having a conversation. i'll knock off the kobe topic for a while okay?"

Same here

-blitz

KL,

I'm not, not chilled. It's just annoying that you say we keep slurping Kobe when you're the one that brings him up time and time again. Kobe is rarely a topic of conversation anymore until someone with an anti-Kobe agenda brings him up.

As for Bynum, I agree that proclaiming him the next great center is premature. I think he's going to be very good but I don't believe in giving a guy a hefty extension without him earning it. He played at an all-star level from Dec. 1st to his injury but that's not enough of a track record.

LO, I think could be very valuable to the team or completely expendable with all of our talent. It'll be interesting to watch.

BTW, don't take anything I wrote personally. I just think we need to get to the point where we're like fine KL doesn't like Kobe but there are so many other interesting things to talk about with the team and league that we could be discussing

Badfinger,

You definitely have my support with the "Magic was the greatest PG of all time" campaign, but convincing me that he was greater than Jordan because of 1980 game 6 is a stretch. First off, it was a great feat, especially for a rookie, playing in the Finals, and out of position. I don't want to cheapen that, because no other player has done it....but....I can't even tell you who the starting center for Philly was that game!! It's not like he dominated a big name center like Moses Malone. But still, it was FANTASTIC, but every superstar has his FANTASTIC moment(s): Russell, 11 titles (eight straight), Wilt: 100 points, Jordan: 2 3-peats, Cap: Most points, etc. Of course the G.O.A.T. is never an easy thing to agree upon, especially with so many types of players, but if you compare individual and TEAM achievements, I don't think Magics' lis is as distinguished as Jordans, but that's just my opinion of course. Peace.

Humanomaly,

>>>I never did this, but I always wanted to take exact
>>>geographical location of Los Angeles, and find out what
>>>is truly on the exact opposite side of the world.....

Well, let's consider that.

The approximate Lat-Long of Los Angeles is 34 degrees N, 118 degrees West.

The opposite side of the world would thus be 34 degrees S, 118 degrees East.

So if you dug a hole from Los Angeles straight through the
center of the earth (ignoring the fact that you and your equipment
would be burnt to a crisp by the magma at the core), you'd
come out somewhere near the western end of the southern
coast of Australia (near Albany). The closest major city to
"the opposite side of the world" from Los Angeles, would be
Perth, Australia.

Jesterguru - sign Marbury?? Surely you jest!

Tom - Just wanted to pay my respects for the support you've given to Sun. None of us know how the kid will do but there's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic and you've articulated your points well.

Everyone else... whats with all the Kobe vs Jordan vs Shaq vs whatever? Man, I say let's get with the here and now. I'm more interested in who's gonna snag most of the sf minutes... it's Odom vs Ariza vs Luke vs Vlad (and don't forget Kobe!). Talk about a crowded field.

KL,

>>>"Have you considered that Jordan gave his
>>>guys confidence? "

Oh, I see. It was Jordan's magnanimous presence on the court
that caused most of the team to shoot over 50% for the playoffs.

So what happened the two years before that when they
lost in the conference finals? Why wasn't his radiant glow
causing everyone on the team to shoot 50% those years?

Why can't you just accept that Jordan's teammates improved
with experience deep in the playoffs and with playing together,
and eventually they started playing at a higher level. Any
explanation other than that is just pandering to MJ.

Watch and learn. Farmar will play better this year. Sasha
will play better this year. Gasol will play better this year.
Odom will play better this year. You can give Kobe credit
if you'd like to be consistent with your worshiping of MJ,
but it's just that you need experience at a level of performance
to perform well at that level.

High school players take time to adjust to the college
game. College players take time to adjust to the pro
game. And pro players take time to adjust to the later
rounds of the playoffs. A handful of players like MJ and
Kobe and Magic and LeBron can jump to the next level
and excel, but the majority of players stumble their first
time at the higher level, but can improve with more
experience at that level.

blitz,

I agree that Cap does not get the recognition as "Greatest Laker." I'm pretty sure it has mostly to do with not ALWAYS being a Laker, evem though it is the team he spent most of his career with and had the most success with. Also, Magic was definitely more charismatic, especially with the media, and much more attractive with his flashy style of play. Kobe also draws that same love from the fans because of his ability to make spectacular plays (dunks and around the basket), but really, his focus on fundamentals (shooting, defense, the "boring" stuff) is what is solidifying his legacy.

KL,

"you're 99.999999% correct. i forgot."

Am I correct!? Did I read that correctly? Did you actually give me props?!

Made my day. :0

BTW, Shaq and Kobe are now on even footing. Shaq started out 0 for 1 and so has Kobe. Remember, even Sarge had to call Shaq out for giving Ologuwan too much respect when he was in Orlando.

There are only an extremely small number of superstars that were successful their first time around. Magic being one.

My apologies to Ologuwan for misspelling his name. Spell-check doesn't help me out with that one.

BTW, just to match Shaq, Kobe has to go through about 8 years of drought with players of capability then win three in a row. It is much easier for Kobe to match Shaq, than for Kobe to ever match Jordan. But, he is in the right place right now to possibly do both.

And, my point on being a Kobe apologist (a point for which I do not deny), is that the league is much harder to dominate now than it ever was. Mostly because of dumb rules set down by the higher ups, like that crazy zone defense (except in the paint) thing. In last year's finals, Boston played a very loose box-and-one defense that got looser and more "man-ish" as the rest of the Lakers shots stopped falling.

By that last game, it was almost a quadruple team. Kobe did pass to his team mates like he's supposed to. They just couldn't shoot. Happens sometimes.

We also know that Boston had a great defensive scheme, but the scheme didn't account for *ALL* of the Lakers troubles. They collectively lost their trouches all at the same time.

I don't think that's going to happen next time. But, then again, I am an admitted Homer.

--Fearless

xodus

"BTW, don't take anything I wrote personally. I just think we need to get to the point where we're like fine KL doesn't like Kobe but there are so many other interesting things to talk about with the team and league that we could be discussing"

agreed. this version of KL is different. i hope you realize that i don't anything on this blog personally.

LTLF,
"Oh, I see. It was Jordan's magnanimous presence on the court that caused most of the team to shoot over 50% for the playoffs."

you can't argue the results even if Jordan was a prick and punched out his teammate. Maybe Kerr was popping off? Lebron made a household name of "Gibson". Do you remember Bron Bron telling Gibson to "step into the shot"? it makes a difference helping guys with confidence. b-ball is as much about confidence as it is about skills, agreed?

"Why can't you just accept that Jordan's teammates improved with experience deep in the playoffs and with playing together, and eventually they started playing at a higher level. Any explanation other than that is just pandering to MJ."

thanks in large part to jordan. do you remember how the "experienced" Bulls performed in 1994 and 1995 without Jordan?

Two words: Hakeem the Dream!

One Phrase: "Never underestimate the heart of a champion"

"Watch and learn. Farmar will play better this year. Sasha
will play better this year. Gasol will play better this year.
Odom will play better this year. You can give Kobe credit"

i've already given credit. i'll be happy to give more credit based on the results of the 2009 season.

"A handful of players like MJ and Kobe and Magic and LeBron can jump to the next level and excel, but the majority of players stumble their first time at the higher level, but can improve with more experience at that level."

agreed.

Jeterguru -

You should be banned from the blog for the very idea of suggesting signing Stephon Marbury.

Ok, just kidding about the ban. But seriously, let that guy be a cancer somewhere else (Dallas? GS? Phoenix? Miami?).

It's a shame - I was once a huge Steph apologist. But the guy is the ultimate loser. Loser in Minnesota, loser in New Jersey, loser in Phoenix (save for one season - after which he was traded because he was a loser), loser in New York. Loser in Italy or wherever his crazy arse goes.

blitz,
"This is is probably weaker than KL's assertion that the NBA salary cap is something that can be easily circumvented if you REALLY want to. Kinda like how Santa is real to the kids who REALLY believe in him.""

for the record, i've conceded this point. i'm not sure if we had a chance to spar last year when i was "KLBeast", but i'll be happy to admit wrongdoing when convinced. i'm sure someone on this blog can vouch for me.

Magic Johnson was the Greatest Laker Ever. There's a reason why his statue is outside of Staples Center. If he didn't get HIV and have it shorten his career as it did, there would be absolutely no reason to debate this fact.

For God's sake, he was a point guard who nearly averaged a triple double and he could DOMINATE at times playing CENTER! That just doesn't happen.

GO LAKERS!

>>>.I can't even tell you who the starting center for Philly
>>>was that game!!

It was Chocolate Thunder. Darryl Dawkins. He averaged
20 points, 6 rebounds, and 2.3 blocks for the finals that year.
Philadelphia also had Julius Erving and Maurice Cheeks, so
they weren't lacking in star power.

And Magic didn't play center for the whole game. He played
some forward and guard as well. And lest you think he carried
the team, remember that Jamaal Wilkes had 37 and 10 in
that game and Michael Cooper had 16, so Magic had some
help.

And Mike T would never IMAGINE that the Lakers could
have won the game, since they gave up 107 points... it's
just that they scored 123.

It truly is one of the great games in NBA history. I highly
recommend watching it.

KL,

"thanks in large part to jordan. do you remember how the "experienced" Bulls performed in 1994 and 1995 without Jordan?"

The 1994 Bulls went 55-27 and were a few plays away from making it to the Eastern Conference Finals. Any team that can win 55 games without it's best player is an absolutely awesome team.

LTLF,

As Chick would always say, Magic played all five positions that day. It is truely one of the greatest games ever played. And, if you count that point-forward thing he used to do from time to time, you can say he played six positions that day.

Amazing.

--Fearless

KL and Xodus,

Just to throw in my side comment to your on-going discussion (you don't mind, do you?), I didn't hate Shaq until he dissed Buss with his, "Pay me my F-ing money" thing.

I disliked him after the, "Company Time" bit.

I was ambivilant about the, "I play myself into shape" nonesense.

I loved him when he came.

The souring of Laker fans to him is of his own doing. Regardless if any person thinks the things said out of hatred are true or not, they are well deserved.

--Fearless

KL,

>>>Two words: Hakeem the Dream!

brilliant. Now I know why your opinions are so biased... you
can't even handle counting up to the number of fingers on
one hand. :-)

LTLF,

That game was incredible. INCREDIBLE. Magic even busted a Kareem skyhook.

If any of you Lakers fans haven't seen that performance, you simply MUST watch it. Period. Do it. Do it now.

Go Lake Show!

Fearless,

>>>As Chick would always say, Magic played all five
>>>positions that day. It is truely one of the greatest games
>>>ever played. And, if you count that point-forward thing
>>>he used to do from time to time, you can say he played
>>>six positions that day.

Not only that, but I was at the game and Magic sold me a
program at halftime!!!!

(just kidding :-)

Greatest Lakers Ever:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Jerry West
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
4. George Mikan
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Elgin Baylor
8. James Worthy
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Gail Goodrich

GO LAKERS!

Where would I be able to watch this game?

also what is it rated? You see, I have a daughter and I know back then there was alot of skin and little shorts.

Oden on Bynum: http://tinyurl.com/53okwl

"NBA.com: You’re making your regular-season debut against the Lakers and their own returning center, Andrew Bynum. What do you know about his game?

Greg Oden: I learned a lot about him last year before he got hurt. I started watching some film on him and I saw how he was playing and moving and doing really good. He’s coming off an injury too. Hopefully he’s around the same place that I am. I know that he’s a good player and it’s going to be a difficult challenge for me."

Oden is hopeful they're in the same place. LOL. Can't wait.

fearless,

i hope all is well with you in the financial market. it's very, very scary right now, however great opportunity for guys (and gals) who know what their doing.

but i digress.

"Am I correct!? Did I read that correctly? Did you actually give me props?!"

what are you talking about? you're one of the few bloggers i've always given respect and props.

"BTW, just to match Shaq, Kobe has to go through about 8 years of drought with players of capability then win three in a row. It is much easier for Kobe to match Shaq, than for Kobe to ever match Jordan. But, he is in the right place right now to possibly do both."

i'll be the first to acknowledge my erroneous conclusions about [bleep], but first he's gotta lead a championship team.

"In last year's finals, Boston played a very loose box-and-one defense that got looser and more "man-ish" as the rest of the Lakers shots stopped falling."

agreed. "box and 1" was my specialty when i played organized ball. not that hard, you just have to be willing to take a lot of punishment and no credit. bruce bowen is my hero.

"I don't think that's going to happen next time. But, then again, I am an admitted Homer."

you're not a homer, but you're man enought to not take things on this blog too seriously.

good to chat with you again.

Long live the Dow (or should I say Federal Reserve and Dept of Treasury?)!

please god... let something interesting happen... let Bynum huck a cake at Farmar who ducks and the cake hits Jeannie Buss in the face... something... we're crawling to the finish line here...

People measure things in different ways and weight what constitutes greatness slightly differently.Superstars legacies are judged by a mixture of individual statistics and acolades ,leadership,team success,great games and clutch plays.Given that all great players have most of these to varying levels championships has become the great distinguisher to a level that is actually probably a bit unbalanced but even so nobodies career has incorporated all of these in the way Jordans has.

The thing that truly seperates him from magic and Bird is complete and utter dominance.Over an 8 year period he lost one playoff series...and he consistently rose to the occasion every time he absolutely needed to.

However good you think his Bulls teamates were.. it was so often Jordan willing them to victory when it really counted.Their complete and utter dominance over the league makes him rightly remembered as superior to the other great players of the modern era.The celtics and lakers of the 1980's just never dominated in that way...and remember jordan did it with two different teams essentially.

As much as you want to say that Jordan had luck and circumstance etc on his side...his legend hasnt been created by a marketing machine or by selling shoes.Go back and watch some of those playoff games and you'll remember just how incredible this guy was.He was simply off the charts and will probably never have an equal.

Oden vs. Bynum what a great matchup!! What a great way to kickoff the season. Oh there is that other guy playing too, Kobe something, I can't remember, but he's supposed to be pretty good too!! Can't wait!!

Xodus...

It always amazes me that people talk about how the bulls did without Jordan and often imply that they were bad.

Its like everyones completely forgotten the success of that '94 bulls team or that Pippen was all NBA.That season is actually used more of the time in arguments to enhance Jordans legacy rather than tarnish it.So great point...

However I would say that its slightly unfair to use it against Jordan too much becasue that team was reloaded around Pippen,Grant and BJ Armstrong (they all had career seasons which they couldnt later emulate on any non-Jordan teams).

Toni Kukoc arrived and was a big contributor,Steve Kerr...and You'd be quite happy to see Pete Meyers defending in a lakers jersey.It wasn't the same team Jordan left.

They also had Phil Jackson who can nearly get 50 wins out of almost anyone ( dunno about you but what a job on the '06 lakers!!!! what a roster!!!)

The fact remains that its not about the bulls 55 wins or pushing the knicks to 7 games...its about the fact that Jordan had that extra little piece of whatever that time and again got them over the hump.People can rationalise and throw statistics around and give their opinions all they like but in the end that is what its all about.

Usually in sports theres legitimate arguments that can often never be properly and definitively answered - magic vs larry,Lebron vs Kobe.How much was Shaq and how much was Kobe?...Jordan simply made sure there was no argument.

I don't think Magic ever DOMINATED at center after that game, especially after the influx of centers in the mid-late-eighties. I can't recall him ever dominating a Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, or Moses... If Magic is the greatest Laker, then it's more because of his part in captivating an audience and revitalizing the league as opposed to just his performance on the floor. Kareem dominated in multiple eras but was never the most beloved of players like Magic and Jordan. However, much like the debates we have with Kobe, public perception versus his performance on the court doesn't always balance out.

As far as Darryl Dawkins is concerned, Kareem seemed to be having his way just as easily, averaging 33,14,3, 5blks. He apparently also sulked that he wasn't the Finals MVP, so that doesn't help him in the popularity contest, but his numbers are still pretty freaking awesome, plus he was the MVP for the season that year too.

kiwi,

very good writeup, but you still suck (kidding, 100% kidding). :-)

remember the 1998 finals when it seemed like the Jordan Bulls were going to finally lose to the Jazz and jordan made that amazing steal, then the infamous cross (um push too) on russell?

that's pure determination and will. classic.

Sun should have a year as a D-Fender. He should do it because:
A - He needs to get a handle on the NBA 3-point line (in FIBA it's about 6 feet in)
B - He needs to get a read on NBA-style defense so that his exsquisite ball-handling and athleticism don't cause him to rack up offensive fouls or just get bullied off the ball.
C - He needs to work on his mid-range jumper and I've never seen him use a tear drop.
D - He should consider having a few post up moves with his back to the basket.

He should be on the Lakers because:
A - Farmar needs someone breathing down his neck in order to light a fire under his A#$.
B - Fish might get hurt.
C - Sun is long and if we put him and Kobe and Lamar and Pau and Bynum out there...that's like a whole team of Tayshaun Princes.
D - Post up moves for guards are LAME.

Which is more true, Laker blog? I think all points are realistic, but which gives the team the best chance to OWN the league?

In other news, it was GREAT to watch Brett Favabean get walloped by San Diego. He wouldn't have looked as good if he wasn't completeing all those dump passes five yards out. I hate Brett Farvre.

Also, we're almost there people, almost there...

Actually I think the starting 5 for the Sixers was Caldwell Jones - didn't C.T. play power forward?

Don't forget that this was the first of the Showtime championships. The L.A. Lakers had never won a chip without Wilt. Dr. J. had just come over from the ABA, and everyone was picking the Sixers to win it all. Magic came out of nowhere and dropped 42 15 and 7 on their heads.

For me, this discussion is similar to the Barry Bonds vs. Babe Ruth debate. OK, yeah - Bonds was a great (cheater) hitter. But until he was the best left-handed pitcher of his generation ON TOP OF THAT, don't talk to me about "greatest player ever." Jordan won a lot. Jordan scored a lot. Jordan never played all five positions in the single most important game of his career to date and dominated the team that was supposed to win AS A ROOKIE.

End of debate.

Although I have to admit, Jon K - putting Shaq just ahead of Gail Goodrich is cold. Funny, but cold.

Kiwi,

Very well put. I was never a Jordan fan, but once he hit that stride in 91 that was it! He had a very talented team no doubt, but to say he didn't mold that team, especially Scottie, isn't fair. In fact, that 94 season's success should be a tribute to Jordan's legacy as well. Not only does he comeback to play a quarter season, get his team further than (1994) but posts two 72-10 seasons and a 3-peat. Was his team talented without him? Clearly, but what other player puts his team over the top like that?

Greatest Lakers Ever?

1. Shaq O'neal
2. Shaq O'neal
3. Shaq O'neal
4. Shaq O'neal
5. Shaq O'neal

JUST KIDDING!

1. Magic
2. Shaq
3. Kareem
4. Worthy
5. Cedric Ceballos (kidding) grrr...Kobe

Disclaimer: My reference is from 1986. No offense to pre-1986 players.

Shum,

>>>>>Laker Tom, you know I'm a double your % Chinese, but am always cautiously
>>>>>optimistic about Sun being able to make the team; and who knows it can go
>>>>>either way, and I'll be very frustrated if the teammates (esp. those American
>>>>> teammates who also compete with him to make the team) don't embrace him
>>>>>because he's a Chinese, it would affect his performance. Bottom line is he has
>>>>>to earn their respect in order to survive, but he is a smart guy, he is likable in
>>>>>LA (with a gigantic Chinese community backing him up), he will be fine. BTW,
>>>>>I just learned that you live in the Bay area, not in LA (or you used to live here)?

Good to hear from you, Tom. As we all know, I am aggressively optimistic about Sun Yue becoming an NBA player. As for fitting in with the Lakers, I don’t really expect that to be a problem for Sun and expect the Lakers players to easily embrace Sun as a part of the team. But no doubt that he will have to earn his playing time and teammates’ respect. The NBA is not the CBA or the Olympics but I think Sun Yue has already shown that he has NBA-level ball handling and passing skills despite his authentic 6-9 height. I agree with you that Sun is a likeable and smart guy who should excel in the freer style of the NBA versus Team China.

I was born in southern Wisconsin and lived in the backrooms of Chinese restaurants there and in northern Illinois until we moved to Southern California when I was 12 years old. I went to junior high and high school in Monrovia in the San Gabriel Valley and lived all over the Southland from Laguna to Long Beach to Sierra Madre so I think of myself as having grown up in SoCal. I moved to Mill Valley north of San Francisco in the 80’s for business purposes and now consider myself to be Bay Area guy, although I still miss some things about LA. One way or another, I will always be a Cali guy.

Tom

Michael C. Teniente isn't going to like this one bit.

http://tinyurl.com/4jfqw9

Nope. Not at all.

GO LAKERS!

Mitch Kupchack talks about training camp.

http://tinyurl.com/4c9kry

Pretty interesting stuff.

Doesn't sound like DJ Mbenga is coming back, so a spot may be opening for C.J. Giles or Jelani McCoy.

Sounds like they might be opening up two spots as well.

GO LAKERS!

 
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