Justa,
"Ira 6-8 minutes in his entire stay with the Lakers and he played well in those minutes. "

WHich Newble are you referring to? For the Lakers, Ira was 3-9 shooting, 1 steal, 1 block, 3 TOs, 5 PF, 11 rebounds, 3 assists in 31 minutes of garbage time. That is hardly "playing well."

If Newble and Mbenga were as capable as your dislike of PJ has led you to believe, why wasn't there more interest in them this offseason? Answer- because they are low quality when it comes to NBA players. Thus using them against the Celtics would have almost certainly resulted in poorer play by the Lakers. You see, good coaches don't just make "adjustments" for the sake of "making adjustments." They make adjustments when there is a reasonable expectation of the adjustments making the situation better. If it is more likely to make the situation worse, then it is smarter to not make the adjustment. Phil, being an exceptional coach, realizes that.

Justalakerfan,

You are not being rational. Not at all.

GO LAKERS!

Justalakerfan,

"Phil is a zen master and believes his methods are the best."

Respectfully, if I'm understanding you correctly, that's kind of silly. Phil never declared himself "The Zen Master." The media gave him that nickname and that's all it is. Thus, to infer he's coaching with some kind of "Zen Master" plan or maintain that image is pretty big stretch.

"His way was the best in his mind hence the ego."

That's not Phil coaching "with his ego." That's just coaching. Every coach in the league thinks what they're doing is the best approach. If you want to say he's a bad coach for not doing things the way you would have, I can buy that (even if I don't agree). But if you think PJ is an ego-maniac for thinking his way is the best, then every coach in the league is an ego-maniac.

"He finally relented and played Mbenga and he came in and gave the Lakers a serious shot of energy and they began to win again and rest the starters. Not bad for a 10-12 man player. The difference this year is he had one on one tutoring from KAJ which no other team gave him."

Simply put, I just think you're overrating both Mbenga's play and the consistency of his impact. He played okay in spurts at times, but he also looked totally lost at times. And the longer he stays on the floor, the more the returns generally diminish. We can agree to disagree, but I think you're making too big a thing of this.

"So two players signed by the FO to help in defense were ignored because of PJ's ego to use the triangle offense and zen meditation. What an ego to ignore what he was given because he was going to do it his way.
Even Kobe preached defense but PJ refused to allow any other thought or approaches to win except for his zen which is highly egotistical."

You keep insisting that Newble and Mbenga were brought in specifically to help the defense and that's absolutely incorrect. They were brought in because players at their positions were injured and bodies were needed. Period. Had Bynum, Mihm, Radmanovic and Ariza been healthy all season, those two would have never been on the team to begin with. To present them as defensive specialists brought in and then ignored is way off base.

AK

I don't think Kobe should ever fully trust Phil. Phil is a sly person.

Phil's bad coaching or lack of adjustments in 2004, 2006, 2008 playoffs is quite disappointing.

Justalakerfan,

"Phil is a zen master and believes his methods are the best."

Respectfully, if I'm understanding you correctly, that's kind of silly. Phil never declared himself "The Zen Master." The media gave him that nickname and that's all it is. Thus, to infer he's coaching with some kind of "Zen Master" plan or maintain that image is pretty big stretch.

[Then who lights incense in the locker room and has players meditate? Yup PJ. He did not coach as he really preached let them figure it out. Kobe was coaching. Playoffs is not time to let players figure it out!

"His way was the best in his mind hence the ego."

That's not Phil coaching "with his ego." That's just coaching. Every coach in the league thinks what they're doing is the best approach. If you want to say he's a bad coach for not doing things the way you would have, I can buy that (even if I don't agree). But if you think PJ is an ego-maniac for thinking his way is the best, then every coach in the league is an ego-maniac.

[ Your opinion but PJ is the worst one with the biggest ego. Well that is an opinion we will never know as PJ never used DJ and IMHO I say he would have helped. You don't know that he would not have happened as he was not used. I base my opinion on what I saw from DJ in the videos. What do you base your opinion on? Also note we do know the results of PJ's methods and decisions!]

"He finally relented and played Mbenga and he came in and gave the Lakers a serious shot of energy and they began to win again and rest the starters. Not bad for a 10-12 man player. The difference this year is he had one on one tutoring from KAJ which no other team gave him."

Simply put, I just think you're overrating both Mbenga's play and the consistency of his impact. He played okay in spurts at times, but he also looked totally lost at times. And the longer he stays on the floor, the more the returns generally diminish. We can agree to disagree, but I think you're making too big a thing of this.

[ You as others are trying to make it seem like I was asking for starter minutes because I really just advocated use him in spurts. Like throwing a change up or curve once in a while. Since Celtics played Kobe 4 on 1 Luke surely was not the answer to open things up for Kobe. Read my comments on DJ at Center and Pau at PF in spurts then watch the video.]

"So two players signed by the FO to help in defense were ignored because of PJ's ego to use the triangle offense and zen meditation. What an ego to ignore what he was given because he was going to do it his way.
Even Kobe preached defense but PJ refused to allow any other thought or approaches to win except for his zen which is highly egotistical."

You keep insisting that Newble and Mbenga were brought in specifically to help the defense and that's absolutely incorrect. They were brought in because players at their positions were injured and bodies were needed. Period. Had Bynum, Mihm, Radmanovic and Ariza been healthy all season, those two would have never been on the team to begin with. To present them as defensive specialists brought in and then ignored is way off base.

AK

Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | September 08, 2008 at 09:50 PM

[ Yes I do as Ira is not a big scorer and was brought in by Mitch to help with the injury to TA our 2nd best perimeter player. Why not sign a gunning SF to use.

Mbenga claim to fame is his blocking shots ability. He even blocked Kobe. He was not brought in for offense. Mitch again signed him for his defensive presence. If not why not pick a center who is a scorer more than a defender?

To say they were brought in for bodies is like saying should have signed Pargo for example as a body to back up Pau. Right. AK I am perfectly satisfied to respectfully disagree but I too think you are making too much of this in defense of PJ who lost.]

Thanks for the exchange of opinions and do not begrudge you your right to yours.

Justalakerfan,

[Then who lights incense in the locker room and has players meditate? Yup PJ. He did not coach as he really preached let them figure it out. Kobe was coaching. Playoffs is not time to let players figure it out!]

No, I understand why Phil got the "Zen Master" nickname. But lighting incense before a game/after practice has nothing to do with in-game coaching. They're separate issues. And the philosophy of "letting players figure it out" is for the regular season. I don't think that's how he coaches in the playoffs. In any event, he wasn't specifically coaching in a style that helps "maintain" a zen image, which was my original point.

"Your opinion but PJ is the worst one with the biggest ego. Well that is an opinion we will never know as PJ never used DJ and IMHO I say he would have helped. You don't know that he would not have happened as he was not used. I base my opinion on what I saw from DJ in the videos. What do you base your opinion on? Also note we do know the results of PJ's methods and decisions!"

I base my opinions on seeing what DJ did during every home and road game (often while at the game in person), watching the tail end of many practices and talking with the coaching staff a few times about Mbenga and his skill set. I'm not sure which videos you watched, but keep in mind, a video can be edited to someone look a lot better than they are, especially if they're just showing highlights. I could create a video that makes Smush Parker look like a lockdown defender, if I just showed positive snippets.

And no, we don't know the "results of PJ's decision" not to play DJ, because for all you know, Mbenga could have made things worse. Just because you happen to think Mbenga would have made things better doesn't make it a fact. We're talking a purely hypothetical situation with a guy who's often struggled to stay in the league, much less crack a rotation. Thus, it's pretty strong to say that Mbenga's absence directly led to a loss.

"Yes I do as Ira is not a big scorer and was brought in by Mitch to help with the injury to TA our 2nd best perimeter player. Why not sign a gunning SF to use. Mbenga claim to fame is his blocking shots ability. He even blocked Kobe. He was not brought in for offense. Mitch again signed him for his defensive presence. If not why not pick a center who is a scorer more than a defender?"

Because the players you're describing may not have been an option. It's the middle of the season and you have to choose from the few people on waivers. These are the best guys AVAILABLE. It doesn't mean they're necessarily better than who was playing ahead of them.

"To say they were brought in for bodies is like saying should have signed Pargo for example as a body to back up Pau. Right."

No, they were really were signed as "bodies" in a lot of ways. You need to have enough people in practices to go five on five. You need players available in case there are more injuries or someone gets in foul trouble during a game. There are many purely practical reasons you pick up players off the waiver wire. Mbenga and Newble were picked up out of mostly practical reasons, as opposed to them being some kind of "answer."

"Thanks for the exchange of opinions and do not begrudge you your right to yours."

Thank you as well. And I begrudge nothing, either.

AK

Justa,
You refuse to answer why other teams haven't shown more interest in Mbenga and Newble. Supposedly they were capable of making a difference in the Finals. For the best team in the west. Tell me again how many free agent offers they have received this offseason?

Good morning AK!

Justalakerfan,

[Then who lights incense in the locker room and has players meditate? Yup PJ. He did not coach as he really preached let them figure it out. Kobe was coaching. Playoffs is not time to let players figure it out!]

No, I understand why Phil got the "Zen Master" nickname. But lighting incense before a game/after practice has nothing to do with in-game coaching. They're separate issues. And the philosophy of "letting players figure it out" is for the regular season. I don't think that's how he coaches in the playoffs. In any event, he wasn't specifically coaching in a style that helps "maintain" a zen image, which was my original point.

{Actually he did coach or non coach in the playoffs as in the regular season. Let the opponent go on 10+ runs before calling time out. Questionable substitutions like over using wounded Luke on PP and who was getting burned constantly. So yes is zen methods did extend to on court as well as off court.}

"Your opinion but PJ is the worst one with the biggest ego. Well that is an opinion we will never know as PJ never used DJ and IMHO I say he would have helped. You don't know that he would not have happened as he was not used. I base my opinion on what I saw from DJ in the videos. What do you base your opinion on? Also note we do know the results of PJ's methods and decisions!"

I base my opinions on seeing what DJ did during every home and road game (often while at the game in person), watching the tail end of many practices and talking with the coaching staff a few times about Mbenga and his skill set. I'm not sure which videos you watched, but keep in mind, a video can be edited to someone look a lot better than they are, especially if they're just showing highlights. I could create a video that makes Smush Parker look like a lockdown defender, if I just showed positive snippets.

{So your as a blogger claim to have a better grasp of what you watched on court and in practice. So does that mean you have better grasp than Mitch for what the players could do? Mitch did sign them not PJ.
Yes videos show highlights but they also show what they can do. If you want refer to the videos I posted earlier on this thread please watch them. The same ones you chastised me for not using tiny url which won't reduce those you tube urls. I agree just like statistics that some bloggers so over use can be manipulated to justify any point of view same as videos. But they do show what a player can do. PJ did not give DJ enough court time to develop more. As for Smush wasn't it PJ who insisted on using him as his starter for two years? Why not go to FO and ask for better pg. He didn't hesitate to go blast Kobe to FO and demand he be traded because he was uncoachable.}

And no, we don't know the "results of PJ's decision" not to play DJ, because for all you know, Mbenga could have made things worse. Just because you happen to think Mbenga would have made things better doesn't make it a fact. We're talking a purely hypothetical situation with a guy who's often struggled to stay in the league, much less crack a rotation. Thus, it's pretty strong to say that Mbenga's absence directly led to a loss.

{If you look at what I said in spurts Mbenga could have helped. Yes we will never know but what I do know is that we lost without using him. Look at the videos and see how Mbengas skill set could have drawn Perkins away from basket and Pau at PF would have kept KG home. Kobe would have had better lanes to drive. Sure in spurts but the difference in points lost by surely suggest we would have had a better outcome. But PJ was outcoached and did not use all the cards in his deck.}

"Yes I do as Ira is not a big scorer and was brought in by Mitch to help with the injury to TA our 2nd best perimeter player. Why not sign a gunning SF to use. Mbenga claim to fame is his blocking shots ability. He even blocked Kobe. He was not brought in for offense. Mitch again signed him for his defensive presence. If not why not pick a center who is a scorer more than a defender?"

Because the players you're describing may not have been an option. It's the middle of the season and you have to choose from the few people on waivers. These are the best guys AVAILABLE. It doesn't mean they're necessarily better than who was playing ahead of them.

{ I don't disagree with best players available but I again say best defensive players available. To ignore that rational is very confusing. Why not sign Foster a center we had before and was in our D league club and well versed in the triangle? He also is thought to be a better offensive center that DJ. So healthy body for practice fodder does not hold up. And no they are not better players than those ahead of them but were signed to help out with their skill set. As part of the team you use them if that is what you have. Luke was still injured and hobbled. TA was not fully recoverd. These guys could have helped. We saw what the over use of our starters did losing to sub 500 teams. We saw what DJ did provide in short spurts to contribute and rest starters a bit. We saw teh results from the help from KAJ had. I say based on that he would have helped.}

"To say they were brought in for bodies is like saying should have signed Pargo for example as a body to back up Pau. Right."

No, they were really were signed as "bodies" in a lot of ways. You need to have enough people in practices to go five on five. You need players available in case there are more injuries or someone gets in foul trouble during a game. There are many purely practical reasons you pick up players off the waiver wire. Mbenga and Newble were picked up out of mostly practical reasons, as opposed to them being some kind of "answer."

{ No they werer brought in for their basic skill sets. Look above and say then why not sign Foster if only looking for practice fodder?}

"Thanks for the exchange of opinions and do not begrudge you your right to yours."

Thank you as well. And I begrudge nothing, either.

AK

Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | September 09, 2008 at 08:11 AM

{Peace and thank you again for the civil exchange of opinions. I respect that alot.}

Second time here! And I always enjoy the back and forth opinons of all the bloggers. Who is this Butler? are you lacking some bcells. do you really think the suns have any chance to make it to the playoffs ? as tough as the western conf. is today. please get off your bias of kobe and the lakers and try to congratulate the team. and maybe then we true fan of lakers could accept you as one of our own. Kobe+Pau-ShaQ+andrew-luke+sasha-smooh+-larmar= back to back championship at the very least.