Jon K,

While I respect Chick, I've got to disagree. MJ's hype came as a result of him being a great player and winning 10 scoring titles, 5 MVPs, a DPOY, 6 championships and 6 finals MVPs. His hype didn't make him who he was as a player and I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest it was.

I think the only guys in NBA history that can come close to matching that resume are Kareem and Bill Russell. I don't think there;s anyway to keep him out of the top 3, which makes him a legitimate choice for No. 1.

Xodus,

Maybe not! Jordan was a great player but lets not underestimate what all the hype can do to a player. More superstar calls/non-calls are just some of them..

But I've watched Elgin Baylor in a lot of championship games. Let's put it this way, Chick may have lossed it then when he made that statement.

Pfunk,

"AK, I have to disagree with you AK.......I'm not trying to have it both ways. I mean go ahead use the parameters that I use with Phil and apply them to Kobe. What you will find is a huge difference in intent or questionable motives."

Again, either you're missing my point or I'm not making it well enough. It's not a question of me (or anyone) saying your observations of Kobe based from watching him on/off the court and analysis are wrong or right. It's the practice itself.

People have also taken certain observations of Kobe from what they've seen/read and conjured a negative opinion. You said during an earlier discussion between us that such a practice wasn't fair, because they "don't know" Kobe, which makes judging him on a personal level unfair. If you truly believe that, you can't turn around and claim Phil fair game for such an approach. At the very least, you need to accept whatever negative image of Kobe that may come from such practice and consider it just as legit (if not necessarily correct) a conclusion. Otherwise, you're just stacking the rules in your favor.

By the way, I liked the comparison to Sting, Prince and Stevie. I don't think it's entirely applicable, in that musicians can pick whichever band mates they want and sports doesn't allow such carte blanche, meaning you're going to have to accept that some teammates are inherently less talented than others. But in any event, I get what you're saying and it's an interesting comparison.

"When I look at Phil Jackson I see a guy with low self-esteem masquarading it as arrogance. A guy who has reached a plateau of learning and has become the master of obscruity in order to hide his shortcomings.
When I see a coach call a last second play for Kwame Brown as Phil did a couple of seasons ago against Denver........when he has the best closer in the game in Kobe......I have to question Phil's motivation.........is he TRYING to win or satisfy his coaching ego?"

I don't buy the idea that Phil is purposely coaching "outside the box" in an effort to stroke his ego. For starters, I don't think you can end up as ultimately successful as he's been just screwing around to get your rocks off. More importantly, he's been around long enough to know the average fan doesn't remember specific details of a win, but rather the career as a whole. Nobody except die hard Laker fans even remember Phil drawing up a play for Kwame, much less whether it worked or not. The masses will judge Phil by the broader picture. And he knows this.

Thus, if Phil is as ego driven as you think he is, he's going to do whatever he thinks will get him that tenth ring so he can pass Red Auerbach and have the throne to himself. That means trying to coach to win, especially when it comes to titles.

Does that mean he makes the best move every time? No. Has he ever left me scratching my head? On more than a few occasions. But I think those moves are sometimes the result of a philosophy that seasons are more about the bigger picture than game-to-game (which sometimes lead to taking a risk in hopes for an reward). And more often than not, they're just him making a mistake. It happens. If you spend 82 games year in/out watching the same coach, you'll find plenty to criticize. Go to other blogs and read fan comments if you don't believe me. Any coach is easy to pick apart if you watch them enough. Thus, you have to judge them by the whole of their performance (as well as the talent available). Along those lines, I think Phil does a good job.

"When I watch Phil fabricate a personal attack against Kobe's character..........WITH NO EVIDENCE........I have to question Phil's motive."

Again, like I said before, you're referencing events from years ago. It's possible (I'd say "likely") this is more an example of you not letting go than Phil working against Kobe's best interests behind the scenes.

"When I watch Phil bring in Chris Mihm off the bench.....AFTER TWO YEARS.......against the Celtics but, NEVER try Ira Newble against Paul Pierce..........I have to question his motives. When I watch Phil Jackson make NO adjustments in the 2004 or last years finals against Larry Brown and Doc Rivers.........I have to question his ability to think on his feet."

I won't try to defend Phil with Mihm. I get what prompted the move (Ronny struggling, other bigs needing a rest or in foul trouble), but it was a bizarre decision, especially considering the Kobe-less lineup he put out there. I wouldn't have cared if he put Newble on Pierce, but I honestly don't think it made the slightest bit of difference. I consider that a total non-issue. Maybe that's just me.

As for the adjustments (or lack there of) in the '04/'08 Finals, there are always moves you think could be implemented, but in both series, I think the biggest problem Phil ran into was that the opposition was arguably better and/or his own team was missing key guys. That may sound like excuses, but it's just my honest assessment. Does that mean there was literally nothing Phil could have done to try to make it better? No and I'm sure he'd agree there were mistakes made. But at the same time, those obstacles are pretty tough to tackle, particularly the injury situations. Realistically speaking, the healthier, better team is likely to come out on top.

AK

Wasn't Kobe Suppose to be saying something about surgery on his hurt pinkie today??

Now that Brady is out (and totally screwed up my fantasy football team) I can officially hate all the Boston teams.

Posted by: rdlee | September 08, 2008 at 12:59 PM

Now that is something we can agree on (although my fantasy team is doing quite well... thanks to Westbrook).

maybe brady should have used the magic wheelchair they used in the Garden last June... hurts when you don't have hidden cameras, eh? take that New England.

What you could say AK is whenever there is the success card, the jealousy card is right next to it which results in "polarization"

Kobe has been scapegoated continually by the "Credible" Phil Jackson probably since Phil first came to the Lakers........thus influencing the media...........first he did it to appease Shaq then he did it to shift focus from his inability to coach.

But everyone is slowly beginning to question Phil as well they should because the scapegoating will no longer work and it's hard to blame Kobe now because the covers have been removed.

Posted by: Pfunk36 | September 06, 2008 at 06:23 PM
============================
Thank you Pfunk36.
Great points about the phoney zen PJ.

When I look at Phil Jackson I see a guy with low self-esteem masquarading it as arrogance. A guy who has reached a plateau of learning and has become the master of obscruity in order to hide his shortcomings.

When I see a coach call a last second play for Kwame Brown as Phil did a couple of seasons ago against Denver........when he has the best closer in the game in Kobe......I have to question Phil's motivation.........is he TRYING to win or satisfy his coaching ego?

When I watch Phil fabricate a personal attack against Kobe's character..........WITH NO EVIDENCE........I have to question Phil's motive.

When I watch Phil bring in Chris Mihm off the bench.....AFTER TWO YEARS.......against the Celtics but, NEVER try Ira Newble against Paul Pierce..........I have to question his motives.

When I watch Phil Jackson make NO adjustments in the 2004 or last years finals against Larry Brown and Doc Rivers.........I have to question his ability to think on his feet.

What do you think?

"And bottom line, you're talking about something that happened almost five years ago. The two of them, unless incredible actors, are both well past this history and have a deep amount of respect and trust for each other. If it's buried for them, I don't see why you're still carrying a grudge on Kobe's behalf. It just seems kind of pointless (the same way I- and I imagine you- would consider dwelling on the Kobe's earlier career mistakes as pointless). Plus, you're making Kobe out to be a fairly gullible person. According to you, he's being played in obvious Machiavellian fashion by his coach, but can't see it. Is that really how you feel? Because that's either the case or you're wrong about many of these observations. Again, can't have it both ways."

I have to admit AK that I pondered this question myself. Is Kobe gullable when it comes to Phil Jackson?

But after studying Kobe over the years I have come to the conclusion that Kobe just believes in being the bigger person. I think after going through a life altering experience with that Colorado thing he made a conscious decision to allow Phil to come back despite Phil's immature book and allow the "wheat and the tare" to grow together.......until harvest time............then you will be able to see the difference.

After his performance this summer...........that strategy may be the best after all.

Posted by: pfunk36 | September 08, 2008 at 08:48 AM
=====================================
Pfunk36

Excellant points and brilliant obsevations about PJ.
There is another criteria in his agenda to hold Bynum back. Yes it down to his ego but remember AB was a Jim Buss pick and Jim Buss called out PJ for criticising his players in the press. Jim Buss also said PJ can't coach big men.

Tell me what more motivation does Phils ego need to prove Jim Buss wrong. Yes start Kwame, give AB little pt, and criticize each improvement AB makes instead of commending him for learning and improving.

PJ just put his ego ahead of the team and hurt AB's development.

pfunk36,

If you read Phil's book then you would know that Phil and Kobe ended the 2004 season on good terms. Everyone misuses that "uncoachable" quote. That was something Phil said early in that season.

Posted by: Xodus | September 07, 2008 at 01:58 PM

==============================
Actually no one has taken that quote out of context. Just remember the circumstances in which that statement was made. PJ was in the FO demanding the team TRADE Kobe Bryant because he was uncoachable.

That is not just a simple quote but a malicious attack in an attempt to get Kobe traded.

hobbitmage,

He'd have to do more than snap Wolverine's neck, he'd have to tear his head off! Have you forgotten Wolverine's accelerated healing ability? You think a snapped spinal cord is going to stop Wolverine? Hell no!

If Sabertooth (who has a similar regenerative capability) is able to recover from having his skull impaled by one of Wolverine's blades, methinks Wolverine would recover nicely from just a snapped neck.

Anyhow, in my book draw goes to the guy with two foot adamantium razors at your throat and lightning fast reflexes.

GO LAKERS!

http://tinyurl.com/5dqxmv

Pinky finger update.

Hey Guys, i just read up an article on PAU GASOL , where he said that he is likely not going 2009 EuroBaskelball Tournament, that his Top Priority is winning a NBA Championship with the LAKERS. He states in spanish in an interview that he is hungry for an NBA ring.

on HoopsHype.com

BUTLER,

>>>The SUNS are deeper than ever with a new coach,
>>>and will have a full season with SHACK to gel.

The only way the Suns are going to be deeper this season
is deeper in the standings. You want to know how the
Suns would have been deep?

Luol Deng, Nate Robinson, David Lee, Rajon Rondo,
Sergio Rodriguez, Rudy Fernandez.

Those are all guys who were either drafted by the Suns
and then given away to other teams or whose draft picks
were sold off by the Suns. They gave them all up so they
could pay a huge salaries to Boris Diaw and Shaq.

They'd rather pay an aging Shaq 20 million a year than
have two or three of those players. If Shaq was actually
playing at 70% of his peak form, he'd be worth 20 mil, but
as it is, he's not worth wrecking your salary cap over.

If I had a choice of Shaq or Luol Deng, David Lee, and
Rajon Rondo, I'd take the kids.

>>>The HORNETS have Posey - dammnnnnn!

The Hornets lost their backup PG, Jannero Pargo, who unlike
Posey could create his own shot and shots for others. oops.

>>>The ROCKETS have RA!

Odds on how many games the big 3 in Houston will play
together:

40 games: even odds
50 games: 5 to 2
60 games 12 to 1
70 games 100 to 1
82 games: not 1 chance in hell

>>>The 76ers got EB!

If it were strictly based on starting lineups, I'd be saying
"watch out Celtics" about this one. Miller, Igoudala, Young,
Brand, Dalembert is pretty formidable. But Royal Ivey?
Theo Ratliff's Expiring Contract? Reggie Evans? not so much.

>>>The mavs have a new coach!

The Mavs have tissue soft Dirk No-win-ski. Dirk makes
Pau Gasol look like the rock of Gibraltar.

>>>And the clips got camby and BD!

... and lost Elton Brand. I have to say though, that
with Camby and Kaman-the-German in the front line and
Baron Davis on the wing, the Clippers defense has the
potential to be very very good. And they have a couple of
talented youngsters who might help (Thornton and Gordon)

>>>The Blazers have oden!

At least until his next injury. He and Brandon Roy are
having a contest to see who can show the greatest amount
of potential and play the least number of games.

But I've gotta say, the Blazers' lineup is stacked like pancakes.
Roy, Aldridge, Outlaw, Webster, Frye, Oden, Fernandez.
And good role players like Steve Blake and Joel Przybilla
as well. With a little experience, and some people growing
into their expectations, they're going to have one seriously
good team.

You let him back to the blog only to slam him every time he gives an opinion. You are treating him like a child although you have no right to. He is entitled to his opinion. If you are calling him out over his opinions over Shaq you should call out very time the bloggers like LakerTom, all sorts of Mamba fans etc. who make some ubeliavable claims over Bynum (already a legendary center according to them) who are much more more over the top than those of KL on Shaq. Coming from a family of journalists myself, I recognize a manipulation when I see one. Is it really the best way for you to prove that Kobe is not a polarizing figure any more by ridiculing the bloggers who think so?

Vaasa

Posted by: Vaasa | September 07, 2008 at 07:40 PM
=================================
Please review the posts regarding Shaq and Kobe and Bynum.

KL always is degrading Kobe in no uncertain terms. We criticise Shaq for his words and actions and what he could have been if he put the work in and showed some work ethic. Every where he went he burned the bridges. No doubts he was a huge talent and could have competed for the best center of all time had he worked. Instead he was a egotistical fool who put in part time effort and expected the adulation of all.

As for Bynum we look at him as the POTENTIAL top 5 centers in the NBA over his long projected growth and time in the league. Remember he is only 20 years old.

By no means has he accomplished this yet but we have the ability to project what we have seen from him over a long and relative injury free carreer to predict his outcome. There is a difference from predicting and annoiting.

Also note the fans have positive observations on AB and even Shaq but KL always has negative outlook on Kobe. Recognize the difference.

Jon K -

I personally am not too wild about the fact that Kobe will probably miss all of training camp. Before the Olympics started, I wish he would have just set up the appointment to get the surgery the day after the Olympics ended (ok, I'll give him a break... maybe 2 or 3 days after). He knew it needed to get done. Why the wait? I don't get it.

It's not so much that Kobe needs the time in training camp - the man's a pro and he'll come into the season prepared - but it's the fact that he's not going to be there to go through the reps with the guys. This not only hurts the timing and on-court chemistry (since he's the biggest part of the offense), but I also wonder if it's yet another instance of Kobe not partaking in team bonding. For all the talk about the guys being "little brothers" to him, he sure likes to be on his own a lot. I get that in this case he was going to miss time no matter what, but the less time he misses, it would seem to me, the better.

I'm sure it's not going to be a big issue in the end. Maybe in a few days Kobe will come on his website and explain it all, but right now, I just don't get it.

Jon K,

By saying Magic is without a doubt the greatest player ever is playing to your emotions as a Laker fan just as much as, if not more, than MJ's commercials, hype, etc. I mean, I love Magic, but he wasn't even the best player on the Lakers until about 1987. And I've got to agree with Blitz that Kareem has a better case for best player ever than Magic does. 6 championships, 6 MVPs, NBA's all-time leading scorer, etc.

Spidey's Spider Sense and his own lightning quick reflexes would be able to dodge the extension of the claw. However, Spidey doesn't have the guts to kill a man, not in cold blood.
Edge: Wolverine

JSNV,

You're being silly. Tobey, Ian, Halle, and Hugh are all actors while Spiderman and Wolverine are REAL!

GO LAKERS!

In terms of Mihm with that game, I won't try to defend Phil. I get what prompted the move (Ronny struggling, other bigs needing a rest or in foul trouble), but it was a bizarre decision, especially considering the Kobe-less lineup he put out there. I wouldn't have cared if he put Newble on Pierce, but I honestly don't think it made the slightest bit of difference. I consider that a total non-issue. Maybe that's just me.

As for the adjustments (or lack there of) in the '04/'08 Finals, there are always moves you watch and think could be implemented, but in both cases, I think the biggest problem Phil ran into was that the opposition was arguably better and/or his own team was missing key guys. That may sound like excuses, but it's just my honest assessment. Does that mean there was literally nothing Phil could have done to try to make it better? No and I'm sure he'd agree there were mistakes made. But at the same time, those obstacles are pretty tough to tackle, particularly the injury situations. Realistically speaking, the healthier, better team is likely to come out on top.

AK

Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | September 08, 2008 at 01:48 PM

==========================
Huh?

AK maybe you don't think Ira on PP would have made a difference but that is your opinion and you are entitled.

Now in my opinion!
Ira in spurts could have rested others so they could play more aggressivly and Mbenga at center and Pau at pf would have helped in spurts and given a new look. Nothing wrong with Mbenga's health and he was not even used. Big man not used when their bigs where pushing or rooting ours out. This also would have kept KG at home with Pau at PF.

Moves PJ did not try and his ego caused us the series again imho.

What does Phil Jackson's ego have to do with not playing Newble and Mbenga?

It couldn't possibly be that PJ sees these guys in practice everyday and knows--just like the teams that cut these guys, who allowed us to sign them midseason--is that these guys aren't good basketball players. Nope, it's Phil's ego. He knows that by not playing "studs" like Newble and Mbenga he'll cost himself the championship and the opportunity to overtake Auerbach for most championships. Damn, Phil's ego.

AK,

"The smug satisfaction that comes from being able to say you "won a title without DJ Mbenga's help?'"

That qualifies as the comment of the day. It's kind of like Kobe's desire to win a title without Shaq.

Xodus,

"The smug satisfaction that comes from being able to say you "won a title without DJ Mbenga's help?'" That qualifies as the comment of the day. It's kind of like Kobe's desire to win a title without Shaq."

Haha. Thanks.

Yeah, if anything, I would think Phil "coaching with/for his ego" would mean PLAYING Mbenga. If DJ happens to have a huge game, then everyone piles on praise about how "The Zen Master is so brilliant that he could not only see the best time to use this journeyman big who could barely stay in the league, but got a great game from him." And if Mbenga doesn't play well, no worries, because who expects anything from DJ to begin with and if he's on the floor, it's obviously because Phil felt his options were spent.

And in the meantime, nobody notices in the first place when DJ sits, so his "ego" is covered there. It's pretty win-win no matter what.

AK

KL,

I've said over and over again that I don't care if you hate Kobe. You hated Kobe in your first stint here and I rarely, if ever, talked to you. When you came back I assumed you'd rely less on schtick and back up your claims which you haven't. If asking you to do this and calling you out on it is attacking you, then just go ahead and say your hate for Kobe is entrenched in you that you aren't going to really back up statements like no one wants to play with Kobe that's fine. I just won't ask you, but the point of the blog is interaction.

You can go on ranting that nobody wants to play with Kobe if you want and you can go on ignoring that no star has signed on to play Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Kidd or anyone else.

Justalakerfan,

"Moves PJ did not try and his ego caused us the series again imho."

When you say his ego "cost them the series," what does that even mean? What would Phil's ego have to do with a specific decision to play or not play Mbenga or Newble? What ego boost would he possibly get from not playing them? The smug satisfaction that comes from being able to say you "won a title without DJ Mbenga's help?" And on the flip side, why would his ego "suffer" by playing Newble? it's not like Phil would have needed to begrudgingly take advice from a bunch of analysts going on and on about "when will Phil finally do the obvious thing and play Newble?" Most people had forgotten he was even on the team. It's not like Phil was trying to prove he could get a 10th ring by starting Sasha ahead of Kobe.

Again, unless you can elaborate, the notion of "Mbenga/Newble equaling ego" doesn't make any sense. This was simply a coaching decision not to play two guys who've spent the majority of their careers as the 10-12th man on a bench. If you think it was the wrong decision, fine. But ego somehow being the overriding factor is a stretch.

AK

Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | September 08, 2008 at 05:26 PM

===========================
AK

You gave your opinion and I gave mine. I will clarify the ego thing since you want it spelled out.

Phil is a zen master and believes his methods are the best. The team was severly short handed and Mitch with Jerry Buss's blessing as he signs the paychecks gave PJ additional help to help with bodies for the roster.

PJ did not feel he needed the help and overworked the starters to the point of wearing them out approching the playoffs and the Lakers were losing to sub 500 teams!

His way was the best in his mind hence the ego.

He finally relented and played Mbenga and he came in and gave the Lakers a serious shot of energy and they began to win again and rest the starters. Not bad for a 10-12 man player. The difference this year is he had one on one tutoring from KAJ which no other team gave him.

I posted some you tube videos prior to this post and you will see what Mbenga could do.

PJ also played Ira 6-8 minutes in his entire stay with the Lakers and he played well in those minutes. PJ's excuse and his supporters is that Ira hurt the offense. Ira was brought in for defense and don't forget Cleveland cut him with the intention of resigning him but Ira chose the Lakers over returning the the Cavs and Lebron.

So two players signed by the FO to help in defense were ignored because of PJ's ego to use the triangle offense and zen meditation. What an ego to ignore what he was given because he was going to do it his way.
Even Kobe preached defense but PJ refused to allow any other thought or approaches to win except for his zen which is highly egotistical.

Please review the you tube posts to see what I am talking about.

I hope that helps.

Xodus,

"The smug satisfaction that comes from being able to say you "won a title without DJ Mbenga's help?'" That qualifies as the comment of the day. It's kind of like Kobe's desire to win a title without Shaq."

Haha. Thanks.

Yeah, if anything, I would think Phil "coaching with/for his ego" would mean PLAYING Mbenga. If DJ happens to have a huge game, then everyone piles on praise about how "The Zen Master is so brilliant that he could not only see the best time to use this journeyman big who could barely stay in the league, but got a great game from him." And if Mbenga doesn't play well, no worries, because who expects anything from DJ to begin with and if he's on the floor, it's obviously because Phil felt his options were spent.

And in the meantime, nobody notices in the first place when DJ sits, so his "ego" is covered there. It's pretty win-win no matter what.

AK

Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | September 08, 2008 at 05:56 PM

=========================
Such a love fest. Read my response first before the hug and kiss.