On Kobe Bryant: Love him or hate him ... or maybe just love him
Recently, BK and I did a video clip about the glowing coverage of Kobe Bryant's Olympics and how the notion that Kobe still stirs mostly negative feelings, whether from non-Lakers fans or the media, is something of an outdated concept. As BK put it, "perception not quite catching up to reality." Yes, detractors remain (as is the case for all athletes), but on the obvious whole, Kobe's image and coverage over the last few years (and particularly in 2008) has grown predominantly positive. Well, AOL Sports recently put up a poll asking people to crown a winner among "The 50 Most Hated Sports Figures," a list ranging from athletes to coaches to Chris Berman. Guess who didn't make the cut.
That's right: Dwayne Mitchell.
Or Kobe, for that matter. Which kind of emphasizes what we were saying. Nobody claims that literally no reporter or fan harbors a dislike for Kobe or sees him entirely as the early decade "version" (or "perception," depending on your take). But the tide is undoubtedly turning, which is a good thing.
For those who didn't see the video, we posted it again below the jump. Also, as an FYI, it's being widely reported that Kobe will announce his pinkie surgery date on his website (kb24.com) this Monday.
Oh, and if I voted from their choices, I'm taking Bill Belichick. Can't stand that dude.
AK
Andrew Bynum, Beast
The Monster of the hardwood
Enemies tremble
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 08:30 AM
Wassup K-Bros and LakerVille!!!!!!!
FYI... I made a career move and I'm now residing in a gorgeous lil village (Jewett City) in Conn.( Southeast corner of the State, google me lol ) Gotta admit, after 2 months being here.. I LOVE IT!!!! OMG... absolutely BREATHTAKING!!!!!! but FEAR NOT!!!! I've brought all my Laker, Dodger,Angel, USC and yes, even Raiders stuff along for the journey so NO MATTER WHAT... I'll STILL be representing to the fullest!!!!
It does feel a lil odd being behind enemy lines but my loyalty and love for our team AND this blog will NEVER waiver.... PERIOD... matter of fact, I'll be up late this evening to check in on those dreaded Raiders to see if Kiff has gotten the S.C spirit in those bums yet. It was great hearing Drew say he'll be 100% this season, although I've been busy as hell, I got to catch Kobe on team USA a few times and it has me ready for the upcoming NBA season. Hopefully Mitch made some wise moves this off season??? Fill me in gang.. relocating from one coast, all the way to another has its disadvantages but now that I'm online again and settled (I got a friggin 5 bedroom, 2bath home for $1200 a month!!!! UNREAL, havent seen a cop or heard sirens ALL Summer!!! UNREAL!!! ) I'll be dropping in daily again..
Havent gotten used to having no In N Outs or Pastrami joints to get my grub on so if anyone back there is from here... help a brotha out and point me in the right direction please... NYC is about a 2 hour drive from here and even though its a dirty, crazy kinda city... I get a rush hangin out there lmao go figure??? Okie Doke Homies... I'm a lil too old to get homesick but I miss LA and looking forward to getting caught up on Laker news and my peoples ( you nerds) Holla Back
Complex n Conn
Posted by: complex_brotha | September 08, 2008 at 08:34 AM
Jon K.'s Irrational Ranking of Unproven Players in Order of Greatness:
1. Andrew Bynum
2. Jordan Farmar
3. Sasha Vujacic
4. Coby Karl
5. Josh Powell
6. Dewayne Mitchell
7. Sun Yue
8. Joey Crawford
Jon K.'s Irrational Ranking of Players who have Something to Prove in Order of Greatness:
1. Lamar Odom
2. Chris Mihm
3. Luke Walton
4. Vladimir Radmonovich
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 08:37 AM
zen,
Wilt Chamberlein was Greater than Michael Jordan.
Next time Michael Jordan averages 50 points, 26 rebounds, seven assists, and five blocks a game for a full season, you let me know, okay?
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 08:42 AM
AK
"In terms of the first half of your post, whether or not anyone agrees with the observations/conclusions you've drawn for Phil, there's still an inherent flaw to your overall argument. Your premise that "basketball is a microcosm of life, character flaws can be seen on the floor and added up, that a "reasonable conclusion can be drawn, etc.," allows somebody to work within those exact same parameters and make decisions about Kobe. And according to your earlier statements, people don't have a right to do that because they "don't know him, haven't met him," etc. That's a direct contradiction of yourself. It's much too arbitrary and self-serving to say this line of logic can be applied to one person you happen to dislike and not to another you happen to think the world of. It's either fair game or it isn't. You can't have it both ways."
I have to disagree with you AK.......I'm not trying to have it both ways. I mean go ahead use the parameters that I use with Phil and apply them to Kobe.
What you will find is a huge difference in intent or questionable motives.
For example........When you examine the times that Kobe has openly criticized anyone including Shaq or Bynum.........it has never been personal........it usually is a professional criticism. I think he may have eluded to both or their work habits lacking intensity. Shaq takes everthing personally, while Bynum heeded Kobe's word and has improved tremendously.........it was the best thing for Bynum's game.
When I watch Kobe play I see a guy who believes in hard work, preparation, passion,........I see a guy willing to DO anything he asks of his teammates and more. I see a guy who is never satisfied and is constantly moving toward the absolute, I see a guy who is willing to adjust and make concessions with his game in order to win as he demonstrated in three NBA rings and one gold medal
I see a guy willing to step up in a time of crisis........when others tend to shrink from it. I see a guy dedicated to his craft and willing to commit to a goal.
I see a guy similar to the musicians Prince or Sting or Stevie Wonder. One who is supremely talented and although they are surrounded by other musicians in their band can play his or THEIR part in a moments notice.............so any potential bandmates had better step it up.........or get fired!
What do you see?
When I look at Phil Jackson I see a guy with low self-esteem masquarading it as arrogance. A guy who has reached a plateau of learning and has become the master of obscruity in order to hide his shortcomings.
When I see a coach call a last second play for Kwame Brown as Phil did a couple of seasons ago against Denver........when he has the best closer in the game in Kobe......I have to question Phil's motivation.........is he TRYING to win or satisfy his coaching ego?
When I watch Phil fabricate a personal attack against Kobe's character..........WITH NO EVIDENCE........I have to question Phil's motive.
When I watch Phil bring in Chris Mihm off the bench.....AFTER TWO YEARS.......against the Celtics but, NEVER try Ira Newble against Paul Pierce..........I have to question his motives.
When I watch Phil Jackson make NO adjustments in the 2004 or last years finals against Larry Brown and Doc Rivers.........I have to question his ability to think on his feet.
What do you think?
"And bottom line, you're talking about something that happened almost five years ago. The two of them, unless incredible actors, are both well past this history and have a deep amount of respect and trust for each other. If it's buried for them, I don't see why you're still carrying a grudge on Kobe's behalf. It just seems kind of pointless (the same way I- and I imagine you- would consider dwelling on the Kobe's earlier career mistakes as pointless). Plus, you're making Kobe out to be a fairly gullible person. According to you, he's being played in obvious Machiavellian fashion by his coach, but can't see it. Is that really how you feel? Because that's either the case or you're wrong about many of these observations. Again, can't have it both ways."
I have to admit AK that I pondered this question myself. Is Kobe gullable when it comes to Phil Jackson?
But after studying Kobe over the years I have come to the conclusion that Kobe just believes in being the bigger person. I think after going through a life altering experience with that Colorado thing he made a conscious decision to allow Phil to come back despite Phil's immature book and allow the "wheat and the tare" to grow together.......until harvest time............then you will be able to see the difference.
After his performance this summer...........that strategy may be the best after all.
Posted by: pfunk36 | September 08, 2008 at 08:48 AM
(Sorry, I forgot to include The Animal...)
Jon K.'s Irrational Ranking of Unproven Players in Order of Greatness:
1. Andrew Bynum
2. Jordan Farmar
3. Sasha Vujacic
4. Trevor "The Animal" Ariza
5. Coby Karl
6. Josh Powell
7. Dewayne Mitchell
8. Sun Yue
9. Joey Crawford
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 09:07 AM
Jon K,
I think comparisons like that are tough because the eras are so different. Wilt was amazing and he may very well be the best player ever, but he played in a MUCH faster paced era. So he had more possessions to score, rebound, defend, etc. I'm not saying Wilt is or isn't better better than MJ, just that you can't say that those stats alone make him better. Because if MJ played back then his stats would have been MUCH higher as well because of the pace of the game and that he'd be much more athletic than everyone in the league.
But saying things like that are futile in my book because there's no way to get guys into a time machine so we all have our own criteria for determining the best player across generations. I like looking at a guy's individual and team performance relative to his era. So my big three all-time is Jordan, Russell and Wilt in that order with Magic, Kareem and Larry Bird as the next 3.
Posted by: Xodus | September 08, 2008 at 09:12 AM
Somebody asked about Luke.
"This year Luke Walton held his basketball camp in El Segundo. It was the first time that Luke had held his summer camp in the LA area.
Luke was unable to participate as much as he had in years past due to his recovery from ankle surgery, but the kids still had a good time. learning to play basketball and of course getting the chance to meet Luke.
Check out our video of the event."
http://tinyurl.com/5uvl9y
Posted by: Fatty | September 08, 2008 at 09:33 AM
Xodus,
You are correct, sir! Ultimately these kinds of debates come down to the kind of argument of "Spiderman would kick Wolverine's ass!" versus "No way, man! Wolverine would totally kick Spiderman's ass!"
But it's something as sports geeks we like to do.
Arguments as to "Who's better? Michael Jordan or Luke Walton?" are pretty clear cut, but over the span of history the debate becomes moot (even if it remains entertaining.)
The only thing a person can do to support their argument is to fall back to statistics. And as Mark Twain said, "There are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies... and Statistics."
True.
Still, even if Michael Jordan played in Wilt Chamberlain's era against Wilt Chamberlain's competition, there's no way in hell he's averaging 50 points, 26 rebounds, seven assists and five blocks a game for an entire season. No way.
Maybe 50 points. Maybe seven assists. But not 26 rebounds and five blocks.
No way. No how. Uh uh.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 09:42 AM
Lights Out Lakers:
The main reason I didn't like Will Clark was that as a Dodgers fan living in the Bay area during that era, I hated seeing him on TV all the time with his shrill voice always using profanity and beating our team. Kind of like hating Roger Staubach and Fran Tarkenton for always beating our beloved LA Rams back in the day.
Posted by: rdlee | September 08, 2008 at 09:45 AM
Jon K.'s Irrational, Indefensible Ranking of the Top Ten Greatest Players of All-Time:
1. Magic Johnson
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kobe Bryant (I'm projecting to future past on this one.)
4. Bill Russell
5. Michael Jordan
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
7. Larry Bird
8. George Mikan
9. Jerry West
10. Elgin Baylor
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 09:48 AM
pfunk36,
[When I watch Phil fabricate a personal attack against Kobe's character..........WITH NO EVIDENCE........I have to question Phil's motive.]
Amen to that, preach on brother. The uncoachable comment still stings though I hear (never read the book) it's used out of context and it was more a "he was uncoachable at the beginning of the season but by the end of the season everything was good". Anyway I feel ya bro, I've seen enough press conferences where I thought Phil was being manipulative of the press without caring about the damage it does to the player in question.
[When I watch Phil Jackson make NO adjustments in the 2004 or last years finals against Larry Brown and Doc Rivers.........I have to question his ability to think on his feet.]
After the celtics series my first reaction was F this, fire the dude and go hire jeff van gundy right now. We need a dude that preaches defense not one that's stuck on cloud zen.
So dude I feel ya but now I'm going to have to tell ya he should still be our coach. No matter how much you disagree with the man's methods, you cant doubt the results. 9 rings and getting outcoached in his last 2 finals is a very impressive resume. Sure you can argue the dude is lucky (blessed with great players etc etc etc) but getting to another final just proves his luck hasn't run out yet. I see phonenix fire D'Antoni and bring in a guy like Terry Porter and I'm thinking really, the same dude that was mediocre as a bucks coach is going to go into get nash and co over the hump?
So yeah I dislike Phil's methods just as much as you do, probably even more cuz really you go negative on kobe ever and you're on my most wanted list for life. Be it hard work, talent, or just pure luck the results show he's one of the greatest coaches of all time in basketball. For that reason you should find it within you to trust that he will not harm our unborn dynasty, he will deliver us unto this new era with zen like calm. But if that doesn't convince you, consider this other argument:
"I have to admit AK that I pondered this question myself. Is Kobe gullable when it comes to Phil Jackson?"
Often we hear owners say the reason they fired their coach is because he wore out the players welcome. They just dont respect or like him anymore, they'd rather remarry their ex wife than spend another season with him.
Well the converse applies too. If your players love the coach then they'll go to war for him. Say what you might about Phil but his players more often than not have the nicest things to say about him when all is said and done. Those are the people that have to tolerate the practices, the media effect, the books etc and they still love him, so like AK said who are we to hate?
Taliq,
Enjoying Da Lake but Still Bored
Posted by: Taliq | September 08, 2008 at 09:56 AM
Back when Magic and Larry were in their prime MJ couldn't win anything except a scoring title. The reason MJ's Bulls dominated was that there were no real powerhouse teams to compete with. When the Showtime Lakers won 5 titles, there was some awesome competition (Dr. J/Moses 76ers, Bird, McHale, Parish's Celtics and the bad boy Pistons).
Some will still argue Magic was better than Michael. I know Larry Bird said it on numerous occasions.
Like in most sports you can't really compare athletes from different generations. Today's athletes are so much bigger, quicker, stronger that even players like Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Amare Stoudimire, or Paul Pierce would dominate over players like Jerry West, Bob Cousy, John Havlecek, etc.
Posted by: rdlee | September 08, 2008 at 10:00 AM
Fatty,
Thanks for the link.
Why do I get the feeling that Luke spends the majority of the camp picking up on MILFs?
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 10:03 AM
Lights Out Lakers,
I was a big Will Clark fan back in the day as well. The only thing I found disappointing in him was how dorky he looked without the baseball cap on, and how high-pitched his voice was!!! Otherwise, how could you not like his swing/play, esp. from 87-90? 87 Topps and Donruss were my favorite Will Clark cards, haha, memories!!
Posted by: JSNV | September 08, 2008 at 10:06 AM
rdlee,
I like to think that players like Bill Russell, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, George Mikan, and Larry Bird would be just as competitive today as they were in their day.
Why?
Because they would have grown up on a different diet, had better nutrition, training and competition as they matured.
They all would be bigger, stronger, faster players than they were in their time.
However, what makes these players Great isn't their physical capabilities, it's their Competitive Greatness--their will, their desire to win, their intellectual understanding of the game, their indominible spirit.
Physical capabilities evolve, but Competitive Greatness is eternal.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Jon K
I agree to some extent, but in basketball height matters, especially at the center position. I don't think Bill Russell at 6'8" could defend players today even if he was stronger or bulkier, unless he grew 3 or 4 inches. Kevin Love would have been better than Unseld in the 60's but might only be mediocre in today's NBA.
Posted by: rdlee | September 08, 2008 at 10:34 AM
those barbeques can be hell on feet. lol.
Posted by: Faith | September 08, 2008 at 10:37 AM
Jon K
Love the list, however, are there any criteria that you used for this compilation? Is this list something that you have been working on for sometime? Oscar Robertson isn't anywhere on your list, did he squeak in at #11?
Just funnin'. Off topic query, any news on Alonzo Mourning? Did he re-up with Miami, or is he facing a life of golf and apperances on TNT halftime shows? Just wondering, not that I think we have an icicles chance in hell to sign him, I just want to know who we'll be playing when we see him. I'll bet he ends up with Charlotte. Dunno why I think that. Seems like a good fit, though, especially considering Okafor's penchant for playing 2/3 of a season.
Glad to hear that Luke's rehabbing. He won't get the coverage the Beast does, but he's still a key cog for our championship contention charge.
Had a thought this weekend regarding the Lakers future at PG. If I recall correctly, Fisher is signed for this year and next. If that is true, then I think this will be Fish's last year as the primary PG. Let me clarify. I believe that Derek will slip easily into a Ron Harper-esque role. Earlier on this thread, someone was wondering about PJ and RH and how Ron 'chose' the Lakers to play with Shaq and Kobe.
I see it differently.
I see it as PJ bringing in a quality player, somebody who accepts a role given to him by the coaching staff and then executing it. At the time of his signing, Ron Harper wasn't a game changing guard any more. But he understood the system, he was as was Avery Johnson in his waning years, a general on the floor. If we wanted an explosive scorer or a tremendous defender, we would've held on to Van Exel or Eddie Jones that year. Instead, both were allowed to depart on mostly friendly terms and continue their careers elsewhere. On paper, Ron Harper looks like a big step down compared to where Nick and Eddie were in their basketball life (RH in the twilight, Nick and Eddie approaching their zenith), but we won with his and Horace Grant's on-court savy. This will be Derek Fisher's role this year. He'll play 20-25 minutes a game, he'll play in crunch time and he'll slowly be replaced by Faramr if Farmar can prove he plays defense.
Hopefully, Fish becomes a well-dressed coach on the Laker bench in a few years. I think we can all agree that he is a fantastic basketball mind and is a stabling person to have in a locker room. ANyhow, that's my nickel.
Jamie
Posted by: Jamie Sweet | September 08, 2008 at 10:46 AM
Jon K.'s Irrational, Indefensible Ranking of the Top Ten Most Hated Lakers Bloggers of All-Time:
1. Let's Go C's!
2. Butler
3. Michael C. Teniente
4. Gunner
5. KL Beast
6. passionate lakers fan
7. zin master
8. Jon K.
9. LakerTom
10. Brian Kamenetsky
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 10:49 AM
Jon K.'s Irrational, Indefensible Ranking of the Top Ten Most Hated Lakers Players of All-Time:
(Hated by other people, of course. Not Jon K.)
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kermit Washington
4. Rick Fox
5. Isiah Rider
6. George Mikan
7. Dennis Rodman
8. Nick Van Exel
9. Jerry West
10. Sasha Vujacic
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 10:57 AM
Jon K.
You could be right on Jordan not averaging 26 rebounds..But not the 50 points!
You have to remember that Wilt was a man among boys in his time.. He was 7'2" wasn't he? He should have gotten all the rebounds!
Jordan however, from a skill standpoint, was off the charts and he probably could've gotten at least 15 rebounds a game just for his athletic ability.
You have to remember though Jordan was a guard. A guard has to chase people all over the court. Did Wilt have to do that? I've only seen certain videos so I don't know.
Jordan was the 3rd highest scorer in NBA history as a guard! The other two were centers. Pretty impressive.
Posted by: zen | September 08, 2008 at 11:05 AM
rdlee,
Remember there was a time when players over 7 foot were amazing if they could walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. Now there are players who are over 7 foot an they're practically acrobats. It's crazy how rapidly physical capabilities have evolved over the last three decades.
If Bill Russell was born today, he'd probably grow to be 6' 11" or 7' 0" with improved nutrition and all the damned growth hormones in today's meat.
And he'd be one hell of a baller.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 11:05 AM
rdlee - Thanks for the explanation. I totally understand the feeling. I also tend to dislike players that do well against my favorite teams (e.g. Troy Aikman) or sound funny (e.g. Avery Johnson).
JSNV - I never liked the receding hairline look either, but I thought his beautiful swing made up for it. I still have my collection of 100+ Will cards, including an autographed 1987 Fleer Rookie Card (I actually met him at a card convention back in '89 and had him sign it).
That's enough reminiscing for now. I am looking forward to the Lakers this season. 60+ wins is a definite possibility, and hopefully title #15 will follow.
Posted by: Lights Out Lakers | September 08, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Jamie Sweet,
Some other players to consider for the list would have been:
Shaquille O'Neal
Moses Malone
Oscar Robertson
Hakeem Olajawon
Bob McAdoo
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Regarding Alonzo Mourning, I haven't heard a thing, but he sure would look good in Purple and Gold.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Jon K.'s Irrational, Indefensible Ranking of the Top Ten Most Hated Lakers Bloggers of All-Time:
1. Let's Go C's!
2. Butler
3. Michael C. Teniente
4. Gunner
5. KL Beast
6. passionate lakers fan
7. zin master
8. Jon K.
9. LakerTom
10. Brian Kamenetsky
11. Mamba24
Posted by: Jon K. | September
D@mnit Jon K. you promised if I bought you lunch for a
week I could appear on the list.
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 08, 2008 at 11:13 AM
OK -- season starts in approx 7 weeks and the pinkie surgery recovery takes approx 6 weeks -- Nice to know there is like a 5 day buffer zone! -- damn you Oprah!!
Posted by: HmrHed | September 08, 2008 at 11:15 AM
ANyhow, that's my nickel. Jamie Posted by: Jamie Sweet | September 08, 2008 at 10:46 AM
And a D@mn good nickel's worth it was Jamie. GooD Post.
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 08, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Dude, how can anyone hate Sasha?
Not to mention Rick Fox!
hotties galore!
Posted by: Faith | September 08, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Poor BK. He can never live down that MVP/Slash Kevlar vest vote lol.
Sokay BK. You're still #1 in my book (of blog moderators that is lol). Well, tied with AK lol.
Posted by: Faith | September 08, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Taliq, Enjoying Da Lake but Still Bored
Posted by: Taliq | September 08, 2008 at 09:56 AM
The Hell with Da Lake just make it back before the season
starts and pick up your badge and get this Blog back in
order. LOL! You know some people have all the luck
next you're going to be appointed to Mayor Daleys 2016
Olympic committee. LOL!
Posted by: mamba24 | September 08, 2008 at 11:20 AM
This is like arguing who is the better leader...
Queen Elizabeth
vs.
Napoleon.
Or which is the better era, the Greeks vs. the Romans
Will never be decided. Let's stick to today lol. Today the Kobester is the best. Heads and shoulders above the competition. No argument in my book lol. Well not heads and shoulders, but definitely the best lol.
Posted by: Faith | September 08, 2008 at 11:20 AM
{Please don't post if previous post went through. I had a computer error when I tried to post my last response to Jamie Sweet.}
Jamie Sweet,
Some other players to consider for the list of Greatest players ever:
Shaquille O'Neal
Moses Malone
Oscar Robertson
Hakeem Olajawon
Bob McAdoo
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Regarding Alonzo Mourning, I haven't heard a thing regarding his (re)signing. However, he sure would look great in Purple and Gold.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Personally I'd like to talk about why the greats don't make great coaches.
I mean their knowledge and drive alone should propel a team to greatness. Meanwhile no one will give KAJ a head coaching job :-(
Which of course is lucky for us, coz he's shaping up Drew to be the next great Laker center.
Posted by: Faith | September 08, 2008 at 11:22 AM
The main reason I didn't like Will Clark was that as a Dodgers fan living in the Bay area
during that era, I hated seeing him on TV all the time with his shrill voice always using
profanity and beating our team. Posted by: rdlee | September 08, 2008 at 09:45 AM
Hey didn't Will Clark anD Barry Bonds have a feud going?
That would make that hate squared then. LOL!
WILT was the greatest Scorer, the greatest rebounder and more important a d@mn good
assist man when he wanted to be. I'm sorry folks Wilt was the greatest.
And don't forget Oscar Robinson averaging a triple
double for an entire season. Never been done before
never will be done again.
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 08, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Jon K,
I agree that MJ wouldn't average 26 rebounds but you have to take into account that Jordan was a guard and Wilt was a center. It's like when someone tries to argue that Lebron is a better rebounder than Kobe, when Kobe in fact plays angles and has better footwork as a rebounder than Wilt. What gives Lebron the advantage is that as a small forward built like a power forward and is insanely athletic and as a result he grabs more boards.
The same applies to MJ and Wilt in this case.
Posted by: Xodus | September 08, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Jon K.'s Irrational, Indefensible Ranking of the Top Ten Players of All-Time with Only One Kidney:
1. Alonzo Mourning
2. Alonzo Mourning
3. Alonzo Mourning
4. Alonzo Mourning
5. Alonzo Mourning
6. Alonzo Mourning
7. Alonzo Mourning
8. Alonzo Mourning
9. Alonzo Mourning
10. Sean Elliot
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Faith,
Napoleon
Greeks
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 12:07 PM
zen/Xodus,
Chick Hearn said the best, most skilled player he ever saw play was Elgin Baylor, but we don't hear a lot of people screaming, "Elgin Baylor was the Greatest player EVER!"
Michael Jordan was a phenomenal player, clearly one of the best. I just think he unfairly benefitted from the Nike/Gatorade/David Stern media juggernaut that nearly deified him. As a result, I think most people's ability to objectively assess his standing in history is a bit schewed.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 08, 2008 at 12:14 PM
BUTLER,
>>>Abdul-Jabbar 24.6
>>>Chamberlain 26.2
>>>Russell 18.9
>>>O'Neal 27.8
>>>...
>>>SHACK is tops.
Maybe nobody ever told you this, but PER is an invalid stat for
comparing across generations. The problem is that the NBA
didn't record blocks or steals before 1973. If you want to do
a combined statistical comparison between Shaq and Wilt
or Kareem or Russell, you need to choose one that only
uses stats that were actually recorded in both eras.
And you would find that Wilt and Kareem had higher PERs
than Shaq.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | September 08, 2008 at 12:17 PM
Jon K,
I loved that kidney list.
Posted by: Xodus | September 08, 2008 at 12:24 PM
>>>What's different about Becky Hammon that makes her
>>>so hated?
a. Becky Hammon was a WNBA all-star, so she's higher
profile than Chris Kaman
b. IT'S THE FREAKIN' RUSSIANS!!!!!!! If she'd have signed
on to play with Angola, nobody would have given it a second
look.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | September 08, 2008 at 12:32 PM
I hope Chris Mihm shows up to camp with long, unkempt hair, a ZZ Top length beard and some crazy new tats.
GET OUTTA MY WAY, that rebound is MINE!
Bring out the BEAST! The MIHM BEAST!
Posted by: Stay Thirsty My Friends | September 08, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Xodus
I love Kobe as much as the next Laker fan, but in no way am I deluded enough in my unabaashed fan love for the team and the player to think that Kobe is anywhere near the rebounder that Wilt was.
The man was so good, they had to invent rules to even up the game for the rest of the league.
In defense of modern day gianst that people think should be able to play at that level...basketball is like art, a good painter paints something in a way that has never been done, like Rembrandt and his use of color to bring out the darkness in a bright painting giving it a richness and quality that other artists, up to that time, hadn't considered or used. Wilt was the same way in basketball, what he did can never be repeated because he was a giant among men.
Coincidentally, the giant didn't win it all too many times, so I think this qualifies in my ongoing argument with people who are over-enamored with the physical gifts of a basketball player. Like an arist who copies the masters well, they can only do what they've seen and will never be considered a pioneer in the game (see Corey Magette, Darius Miles, Paul Pierce and a host of other players in the league).
I think the league is too rough, too good at defense and the rules have moved basketball away from one guy being able to doninate the game.
Which is what makes what Kobe does even more spectacular. I remeber when he scored 81 and Barkley was like, "Somebody should just hit him to stop him on Toronto, if I was on Toronto I would've run him over". The league allows for this to happen with all the hand-checking, the way you can double team a man without the ball, and the way they let the illegal pick happen all the time.
Another feather in Wilt's cap...he could shoot from 15' out, if Shaq had ever worked on a short range jumper, he would've maintained his torid scoring average a few years longer, keeping him in the elite level of players and probably winning one more ring with any of the teams he's played on. imagine having to worry about covering Shaq when he's 10' out? A few years ago, it would've been a nightmare because he, at one time, could take you off the dribble, he is still a deft passer, and he could always finish around the rim. Instaed he has become quite predictable which is not something Jordan, Kobe or Jerry West could ever be accused of.
Is it training camp yet?
Damn.
Posted by: Jamie Sweet | September 08, 2008 at 12:37 PM
LTLF, You're too in love with numbers. Sometimes numbers lie.
Not to say I don't agree with that last post though lol.
Posted by: Faith | September 08, 2008 at 12:46 PM
Now that Brady is out (and totally screwed up my fantasy football team) I can officially hate all the Boston teams.
Posted by: rdlee | September 08, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Faith said it best. Can't compare the Greek Hellenistic period, to Roman Empire, to the Ottoman 10 Centuries rule, to the Spain/Portugal Age of Discoveries, to American Century and to the future Chinese "copycat made in china" Century, if there is such thing. Must we continue comparing Elgin, MJ to Luke Walton (based on Luke's best fave)? lol!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | September 08, 2008 at 01:14 PM
AK/BK,
The blog becomes goofy and dorky b/c there is nothing to talk but fantasizing the phatasms of every poster. Makes it complicated when someone comments on such phantasms and mixed them with facts and PER. Oh God, this getting crazy I'll just lay off for a while. LOL!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | September 08, 2008 at 01:19 PM
Jon K,
I loved that kidney list.
Posted by: Xodus | September 08, 2008 at 01:19 PM
Like a few of the bloggers (especially old school heads) I agree with not comparing players of different generations. Greatest of all time, the ultimate fan debate, can easily be MJ, Kareem or Russell, depending on your perspective on how the game should be played. I really can't see the other players even coming close to these three guys.
Russell, dominated basketball in his era, period. He was a champion at every level he played at. There is something about winning that just never grows old. He is the winningest NBA player in history, in addition to being individually taliented. Of course the era had less teams, which meant less talent dilution, but also the game was different, more physical and less flash. With the exception of Wilt and maybe other "giants" dunking wasn't even "allowed" as players would be mauled if they tried to enter the paint. So would Jordan "kill" in this era, very likely, but maybe his style of play would shorten his career too, with a limited ability to get to the rim. Who knows. But for this era, player and player coach, Russell's success even surpasses Wilt's individual achievements in my opinion.
Kareem to me is the most skilled center of all time. Who else has a 15-20ft HOOK SHOT?? He scores, rebounds, blocks shots, and even decent from the line. He happened to also play with the greatest PG (Magic) and another all time great (Oscar), but he carried his team to the titles, with exception to 87-88 when Magic was taking over the team, but he was still very effective. All time points leader, 5(?) MVPs, 6 rings on two different teams. He may not have "dominated" the way Wilt did, but he faced some of the greatest centers of all time, and in that era, I don't think there was anyone better.
Now MJ, is just MJ. There's no way you can argue that there's a better shooting guard. Offensively and defensively, he proved he was the best. Unbeaten in the Finals and two three-peats? He didn't have the immediate impact to his team the way Magic and Bird did, but when he hit his prime (at the end of the Magic/Bird era) he was indeed peerless. Again, do I think he would have been the same or better in any era, maybe, but I look at talented guards like Oscar and Elgin and as prolific as those two were on the offensive side, they couldn't have won in that era without a dominant big man.
I do also agree with the notion that Shaq could have been the Greatest of All Time if he was more professional and dedicated to the game. He had the size, athletic ability and strength to dominate every night. Had he been more focused on staying in shape, working on this free thows, and improving his low post moves, I think he would have won more than 3 consecutive titles and more than 1 MVP. His numbers are still great, top 5 centers in my book, easily, but he could have easily surpassed that with a little more effort. It is sad to say that this kind of success is still underachieving, but anyone who's followed his career can't say he couldn't have done more. Let's just say he didn't love the game more than some of the other greats.
Posted by: JSNV | September 08, 2008 at 01:21 PM