On Kobe Bryant: Love him or hate him ... or maybe just love him

Vman,

The one thing that Bill really made himself beyond the realm of even the Captain was the he was the coach of the celtics in his last few years as a player too! In his last 3 seasons he was the Head Coach of the Celtics along with being the captain of the team as well.

In his last two season (67-68 and 68-69) Bill won both years the title. His first year he coached was the only year he lost legit to Wilt (he was injured in 1958 so he couldn't really play in that game). Did the Cap ever coach or Moses or Shaq or David along with being the captain of the team?

Nope.

Wilt i already explained in an earlier post was simply dominant and in my opinion if he had been less nicer and more meaner would have been undisputed most dominant player over Jordan (I still rank Wilt and Bill over Jordan). During Wilt's 50 points season, the best the Celtics could limit him was 38 points that game, which would have been still an NBA record had Wilt "only" averaged 38 points per game, Jordan's highest average was 37 points per game.

Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell are the two guys who are on another plane than any other NBA player (Jordan is with them but still would get beaten down by those two).

KL,
"do you think guys like ron harper, rick fox and robert horry would join LA had shaq (and the opportunity to win championships) weren't in LA? they sure weren't here to play with baby kobe at 17-years of age."

Actually, Horry was traded to the Lakers (as in, he didn't make the call one way or the other) and Harper didn't join the Lakers until a 21-year old Kobe was in his fourth season and undoubtedly at least "a" reason that Harper, at the tail end of his career and looking for more titles before retiring in 2001, thought this team could win it all. And honestly, Harper's relationship with Phil Jackson might have played a bigger reason to join the team than Shaq OR Kobe.
Seriously, man. I can't emphasize how much it would help you to do five minutes of fact checking before posting. Or just own up to the fact that you're a Shaq fan who'll always bear a permanent grudge against Kobe because the two didn't get along, which is both your right to bear and will stop a lot of pointless discussion in its tracks.
AK

lmao...again the Kbros COMPLETELY shutdown any point KL tries to make. He's like the guy trying to convince everyone that the sky is falling. VERY annoying. You have tried to change our minds for years, if it didn't happen then when we were getting knocked out of the playoffs in the first round, why would it happen now when we were 2 games from a championship without the BIG HOMICIDAL?

AK/BK: I'm still hanging on to the perception that there is a ton of Kobe hate still out there, and I'll explain. While the numbers of haters might be dwindling, the intensity of the Kobe hate is not. If anything, it's increasing.

More people may hate Belichik, but they don't hate him with half the intensity of those that hate Kobe.

The formula for the density of the haterade has to be something like (# of haters) X (intensity of hatred).

Also, Mayor of Kobe Town made me snort out loud with his comment about Kobe's bionic pinky.

AK/BK,

Nice video and of course the topic. It does look like in black and white. A nice background and lighting would have added some dimension. Unless you wanted a retro look. Still, appreciate the effort and thanks for the blog.

Aloha Blitz

while I respect your opinion(I have Wilt/Russell 2 and 3) I still believe Kareem was the greatest of all time. for the 1st part of wilts carear he was a freak. a huge man playing against men of Small forwards of today. Kareem got his numbers against guys like Willis Reed, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Robert Parrish, Nate Thurman, Artis Gilmore, Wes Unseld, Bob Macado, Bob Lanier, Hakeem the Dream, Patrick Ewing, Dave Cowans etc. If you look back at both Wilt and Russells numbers you will notice that they began to drop as mose quality big men entered the game. Dont you think that Kareems numbers would have been staggering had he come along when Wilt did? It is hard to compare eras but for me the competition level for Kareem was so much higher.

MH

Maybe it's because of living in southern California, but I had no idea people hated Pete Carrol. I always saw him as being one of the more well liked guys in sports.

I'm not really familiar with Becky Hammon, but she was on the list because she played for the Russian national team at the Olympics, despite not speaking Russian. Isn't that kind of what Chris Kaman did playing for Germany? I don't hate him for it and it doesn't seem like anyone really does. He wasn't going to ever make the US team and he was just seizing an opportunity to play in the Olympics. What's different about Becky Hammon that makes her so hated?

Mayor of Kobe Town -

Funniest thing that I've heard all day/weekend!

DavyJonze -

Yes, Skip Bayless is hated by everyone and should EASILY have made this list.

As for me, Jay Mariotti is my #1. What a snarky little biotch.

All this news too about Andrew has me itching for the season to start. I can't wait to see him and Pau on the court together. Just the thought gives me butterflies.

add Michael Wilbon to that list as well

Bill Plaschke comes off as more of a clown than a journalist but he doesn't appear nationally as much as Marrioti

DavyJonze,

"I'm not really familiar with Becky Hammon, but she was on the list because she played for the Russian national team at the Olympics, despite not speaking Russian. Isn't that kind of what Chris Kaman did playing for Germany? I don't hate him for it and it doesn't seem like anyone really does. He wasn't going to ever make the US team and he was just seizing an opportunity to play in the Olympics. What's different about Becky Hammon that makes her so hated?"

A couple comments...

1. She played for Russia who we don't have the coziest of relations with right now.

2. I think it's implied that she's not borderline retarded as Chris Kaman is suspected to be and thus CHOSE to play for Mother Russian instead of being duped into playing for Germany by Dirk Nowitzski.

3. I'm personally very displeased with Chris Kaman's decision. If I were not a Clippers fan, I would find him very easy to hate for doing something so stupid and unpatriotic.

4. The Olympics are all about national pride. That's why they were created. It's not about just going to be a part of the party. You're representing something--yourself as a representation of the potential and passion of one's country. Not someone else's country. It makes me sad that some people don't get that.

5. I wasn't particularly impressed with AOL Sports list. It seemed rather haphazard to me.

GO LAKERS!

Michael Wilbon isn't very hated. He's among the most respected journalists in the country.

michael h,

"I went back through the rosters and I am pretty sure there are only 5 starting centers that big. Yao, Shaq, D Howard, Kaman and Perkins."

I don't see it that way. I said center's weighing 270 and more who play defensive philosophy. I meant to say who's teams play defensive philosophy.

I see those teams to be: Boston, Detroit, Phoenix and Houston.

Howard's team doesn't play team defense. Kaman's team doesn't play team defense. Those team's centers can do well against Bynum but they still won't beat the Lakers because they don't have enough defense to stop the rest of the Lakers.

Only Boston, Detroit, Phoenix and Houston have centers who weight 275 and up and will play with a defensive philosophy next season.

Bynum will dominate all other teams but it's against these teams that we will see just how good Bynum really is. And we'll also see how sound the Lakers' philosophy of ball is.

mike t.

Isn't it interesting that 3 ex-Pistons are listed (Isiah, Laimbeer and Rodman)? I could add Mahorn to that list .
Others on my list would include: Johnny Most, Red Auerbach, ML Carr, Danny Ainge, Steve Nash, Tom Heinsohn, Jeff Van Gundy, Rick Barry, Hollywood Henderson, Lou Holtz, Bobby Knight, Ed "SuperFan" Bieler, Will Clark, Mike Tyson...
I wonder who the most hated Lakers would be (chosen by Lakers fans)? I guess Smush and Kwame would be close to the top.

Houston doesn't play a defensive philosophy.

"But they have Ron Artest and Shane Battier :O!!!"

Two words: Raja Bell. Raja Bell was/is the Phoenix Suns defender and did that make the Suns a defending team during the D'Antoni era? No. Don't confuse just because a team has a defender means that they are a defensive team.

"Yao Ming!!"

If Yao Ming is a defender, wow his defense sucks.

"The Coach (Rick Adelman)"

The one reason why he was fired from Sacramento despite having good talent and managed to rally back in 05-06 into the playoffs: "He wasn't a defensive coach".

Thanks for playing.

Kobe needs another All-Star caliber perimeter player to prolong his career - someone who could create his own shots. We can't expect him to create shots for everyone for many more years.

I think the Lakers should try to clear cap space for 2010 to try to land LeBron or D-wade. Let Lamar go after the end of this season, and try to clear Pau's salary from the books before 2010 (perhaps you can sign and trade him for one of the two). Can you imagine a team with Kobe, LeBron, and Bynum?

Mike T,

I really don't get how you can say that Phx will have a defensive presence next year -- I mean they may, but that would be something new. What has happened with this group to make you believe they are changing? Their three best players are defensive liabilities.

1. Shaq was picked apart by the pick and roll against SA in the playoffs – and is now older.

2. Nash is an average defender at best. Chris Paul ripped him apart last year – and is now older.

3.Amare does not have full commitment on the defensive end and he self admittedly would rather score.

That is a recipe for defensive disaster.

"Detroit really has no answers for a twin tower attack. They didnt do that well against last year. they barely beat us once without both Andrew and Pau. Yes they have Kwame and I suspect he will see more minutes off the bench against us, then most other teams. But even if he does well against Andrew, who will stop Pau? And if Kwame is playing center that means Wallace may be on the bench. Who will replace his offense? It wont be Kwame."

Actually, I believe Kwame will be the starting center with Wallace at the 4 spot. So Kwame will be guarding Bynum and Wallace will be guarding Gasol.

Then you have McDyess coming off the bench.

This is a good match up because Detroit is all about defense. This of Kwame as the same as Ben Wallace. The Pistons with Billups, Hamilton, Prince and Wallace know how to win with a defensive center who doesn't score much. They're going back to that philosophy. You watch! Kwame won't be coming off the bench.

Fisher vs. Billups
Kobe vs. Hamilton
Odom vs. Prince
Gasol vs. Wallace
Bynum vs. Kwame

If Kwame and Wallace shut the middle down on Bynum and Gasol....interesting.

mike t.

This is far off topic, but I laughed pretty hard when I came across this video of Karl Malone "wrestling" Hulk Hogan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNXeMehcWjU

AK

"Uh, yeah, I do think the media is changing (in part because of Kobe's own growth and in part because of their increasing recognition of that growth). Which is why I actually said that. You must have missed that part- some might call it "what I was talking about"- when you were busy formulating this long-winded diatribe in your head"

This statement in a nutshell captures your neurosis. You believe based on the above statement that "the media" is this august body that possess the skills to analyze and acknowledge Kobe's growth. Is that what you believe?

Wow! What an amazing display of arrogance.........but it's not surprising. Because arrogance is really low self-esteem. It just means your diagnosis is at a critical state.
You are in desperate need of a paradigm shift..........I just hope it is not too late for you because your neurosis is dangerously close to psychosis ( a complete separation from reality)

Your inability to even consider that the media has grown as well as Kobe deeply concerns me. It suggest to me that it would be increasingly difficult for you to see yourself and the media as part of the problem. In other words......delusional

"By the way, the "overwhelming evidence" that suggests Kobe's perception has been positive all along: Care to share any of it, or are you just gonna run with your normal tactic of vagueness masquerading as genius?"

If you would read what I wrote I said Kobe has been "consistent" all along. This means his "performance" has remained consistent. He has averaged somewhere between 25 and 30 points during the Championship and contender years along with about 5 or 6 assists making him one of the best passing shooiting guards in basketball for the last 8 years.........is that right?

It is this consistent "performance" and not the "controlled" perception of his performance that has made Kobe a global icon and nearly god-like in China.

Kobe hasn't been perfect off the court but who has? If you were to place a microphone in front of most people that dis-like Kobe and ask them the source of their dislike I doubt they would be able to give a sound answer.

How can you dislike a person............that you've never met or know anything about? Most just repeat what they've read in the paper, or saw on television and then base their opinion on the interpretation of someone else...........and this "someone else" if analyzed may be the one with all the problems

"Well, I came to that opinion for a few reasons. Over the years, his actions on and off the court have always divided basketball fans and analysts. The good people at Nike seemed to agree, since they thought that whole "Love me or hate me" slogan would sell a few sneakers. And tons of readers on this blog (including you) have complained for eons about how Kobe is so "hated," despite (or even because) of his greatness. Greatness, which could possibly breed resentment, which breeds polarization, as YOU said (i.e., you're actually saying what I'm saying, but in such in a hurry to "disprove me" that you don't realize you're actually helping make my argument)

Let me give you some "inside information" about the "good people at Nike" . A good freind of mine who was formally at Weiden & Kennedy told me some Nike executives are at odds with Kobe because Kobe has the udacity to want to CONTROL his own image.

That Love or hate me idea was mostly Kobe........if you don't believe that........you can ask Kobe.

What Kobe was saying the Chinese would later bear him witness.........they loved Kobe in China for the same reasons he was hated by the media in America. It comes with the territory.

The Chinese deal in performance.........you notice nobody was chanting for Luke Walton.

more later on your Tex Winter comment

What, no SHACK on that list either??

Only in LA could there be legitimate concern about how popular a playa is. As if it mattered more than the ability on the court. Sheesh...

chuck23 sez:

"Case in point, 3 weeks ago a restraining order was issued for one Shaquille O'neal. For some odd reason this story has slipped into a media coma!

Had Kobe been linked to such allegations that story would have ran 24/7 on every network not to mention every news outlet villafying Kobe to no end! Shaq has been the media darling for espn and every other major sports media outlets that they are afraid of writing the truth about a oversized obsessive spoiled baby!"

The laker fan obsession with SHACK is insane! I've never seen such sensitive fans, it's like, until kobee wins a ring without SHACK, the Big Diesel's shadow is forever looming across Staples Center!

We in PHX SUNS land simply understand he's a delightful personality who is easy to hate when he's not on your team. but easy to love when he is. Well my friends, SHACK is in your division and aims to knock the lakers' collective heads off this season.

You get to see his sweaty head filling your TVs at least 4 times this season, and even though it's months away, already your collective trembling and bawling is rising to a caterwaul!

HmrHed sez

"For me it's more than just being bitter at Shaq -- Shaq underachieved in my eyes. It's hard for me to put someone like that ahead of Wilt, Russell, Kareem -- I can see an argument where he falls number 5. But what a waste of dominance. Let's be real -- Shaq was dominant against the overmatched east -- Kobe was the MVP in the western conference playoffs during those years"

You laker fans are something! SHACK is a PHX SUN and you can't stand it!

SHACK has those Finals MVPS...deservedly so.

SHACK underachieved? According to ESPN, he's got the highest PER of any other great HOF center in NBA history! That means he's more dominant that kareem (which kind of puts byenumb at a disadvantage), wilt, Russel, Robinson, etc.

SHACK is the most dominant ever, the MDE, and he will be remembered as one of the true greats alongside MJ, Nash, Wilt and Bird.

kobee? As it stands, he belongs in another category - alongside the Dennis Johnsons, the John Stocktons, the Karl Malones and Gary Paytons...a good playa, no doubt, but not a dominant playa.

Pfunk36,

What exactly are you arguing? It always seems that you just want to be a contrarian and disagree with whatever AK/BK say. Are you trying to say that perceptions of Kobe hasn't changed? And it's arrogant to suggest that the media acknowledges that change and as a result his growth is arrogant? Really? Wow. You need to calm down dude.

BUTLER,

"SHACK is the most dominant ever, the MDE, and he will be remembered as one of the true greats alongside MJ, Nash, Wilt and Bird.

kobee? As it stands, he belongs in another category - alongside the Dennis Johnsons, the John Stocktons, the Karl Malones and Gary Paytons...a good playa, no doubt, but not a dominant playa."

LOL! Nash is among the greats in the same breath as MJ and Bird and Kobe isn't. That's rich.

BTW, Shaq did underachieve because he was consistently injured and out of shape following the 2000 season. I always say Shaq should have been the best player ever. He was so talented that simply being among the 10 best players ever WAS underachieving.

I happen to live in New Mexico where there are no pro franchises. The Lakers are incredibly popular here, but Kobe remains a very polarizing figure. He's wildly popular among Laker fans, but wildly hated among non-Laker fans. My wife, who happens to be a big Laker fan can't stand Kobe. She always points out that he sits at the very end of the bench and doesn't do much to support his teammates.

To me, Kobe's leadership style is reminiscent of my father's. "Do as I do." "Talk is cheap". "Put in the work." That resonates with me. However, the pundits here still think Kobe is a very selfish player.

Pfunk36,

"This statement in a nutshell captures your neurosis. You believe based on the above statement that "the media" is this august body that possess the skills to analyze and acknowledge Kobe's growth. Is that what you believe? Wow! What an amazing display of arrogance.........but it's not surprising. Because arrogance is really low self-esteem. It just means your diagnosis is at a critical state. You are in desperate need of a paradigm shift..........I just hope it is not too late for you because your neurosis is dangerously close to psychosis ( a complete separation from reality)."

I tip my hat. Your faux "analysis" is a seriously transparent attempt to avoid admitting that you simply didn't pay attention to what I originally said (and continue to avoid what I said). But it's a masterstroke of unintentional hilarity. Especially since you go on to chide me for "not considering that the media has grown" (which I actually had), which is basically talking nonsense out of both sides of your mouth.

I also find it mindbogglingly ironic that you'd ever lecture anyone about "arrogance equaling self esteem." This from the guy who reminds them to "think before they answer" one of your questions, because they're obviously such "complex" queries to wrap ones head around.

"Your inability to even consider that the media has grown as well as Kobe deeply concerns me. It suggest to me that it would be increasingly difficult for you to see yourself and the media as part of the problem. In other words......delusional.

Again, I literally said (now twice) that the media grew as well as Kobe. Your inability to read what I write and accept that I wrote it concerns me. I realize that approach might cut down your "rant" opportunities, but still...

"If you would read what I wrote I said Kobe has been "consistent" all along. This means his "performance" has remained consistent. He has averaged somewhere between 25 and 30 points during the Championship and contender years along with about 5 or 6 assists making him one of the best passing shooiting guards in basketball for the last 8 years.........is that right? It is this consistent "performance" and not the "controlled" perception of his performance that has made Kobe a global icon and nearly god-like in China."

I agree with your take on Kobe's play (it's basically what I've said over the years). I also agree that talent provided the primary (maybe even only) basis for the Chinese fans to judge Kobe by. Plus, there's the excitement of being able to see Kobe play live, which was basically once in a lifetime for them. But the comparison also isn't entirely realistic, because the Chinese fans, in not getting a taste of the American media- which I've admitted hasn't always been fair to Kobe- they also don't get a taste of some of the legit reasons Kobe has rubbed certain fans wrong.

The Chinese fans weren't hit with the daily details of what led to the threepeat team breaking up (and while Kobe doesn't deserve all the blame, he's not blameless, either). They likely didn't hear multiple daily reports and details on Colorado (and even for some who believed his innocence against criminal charges, there could be an ethical issue at play). They didn't get as many details about Kobe's difficulties relating with teammates. They didn't get the details of Kobe's radio tour last offseason, the "Kobe video," etc. These events provide legit criticisms against Kobe (as you even say, he hasn't been perfect off the court). I personally feel the majority of this stuff has reached "ancient history" status and Kobe has also grown a lot, which makes it not worth dwelling on. And I think others agree, which is why Kobe's image keeps growing increasingly more positive. But the backstory does linger for some. Thus, the polarization I mentioned from the beginning, which is pretty difficult to deny.

"Kobe hasn't been perfect off the court but who has? If you were to place a microphone in front of most people that dis-like Kobe and ask them the source of their dislike I doubt they would be able to give a sound answer.
How can you dislike a person............that you've never met or know anything about? Most just repeat what they've read in the paper, or saw on television and then base their opinion on the interpretation of someone else...........and this "someone else" if analyzed may be the one with all the problems"

I get what you're saying, but that's also the nature of being a public figure, which comes with a downside. To expect anything else is simply naive. Everyone judges public figures that they've never met based on what they read, see, hear. For example, you've created deep analytical and psychological profiles for Phil Jackson and what motivates his actions. Unless you're keeping some personal relationship with PJ a secret, you've never met him, either. What's the difference?

"Let me give you some "inside information" about the "good people at Nike" . A good freind of mine who was formally at Weiden & Kennedy told me some Nike executives are at odds with Kobe because Kobe has the udacity to want to CONTROL his own image. That Love or hate me idea was mostly Kobe........if you don't believe that........you can ask Kobe."

I have no problem believing that Kobe came up with the "Love me or Hate me" idea, but that's also totally irrelevant with what we were talking about. If Kobe came up with that concept, it was very obviously based off his awareness that he can polarize people (which was my point to begin with). Otherwise, the theme wouldn't have made sense. And Nike signed off on making it, so they thought it made sense, too. I cited the commercial because you asked me why I thought Kobe was seen as polarizing. Turning this into a semantics battle over creative credit is just you consciously skirting the point.

AK