Dilbeck on Kobe and Europe
Responding to an interview from Sonny Vaccaro with the "Loose Cannons" on AM 570 on Thursday, Steve Dilbeck of the Daily News today revisits the possibility of Kobe Bryant heading to Europe after this season. (I haven't seen a link to the interview, but they usually end up posted, so if someone has it, pass it along and we'll get it up.) Remember, this summer after Josh Childress' decision to sign overseas, Bryant said he'd consider a big-money offer from an Italian team when he's a free agent. Whether $50 million is truly "the figure" or just one tossed out there for fun is up for debate -- the point is, we're talking some serious scratch. This, of course, assumes there's a European team out there willing and able to make the offer... a point of debate, for sure.
Writes Dilbeck:
"The last year of Kobe Bryant as a Laker.
Don't think it will happen? Maybe not, probably not.
But it absolutely could...
...Preposterous? Outrageous? Kobe would never leave the greatest basketball league on the planet? Would never walk away from his beloved Lakers?
Really? Haven't you been paying attention?
He almost left once to be a Clipper. Tried to force the Lakers to trade him - when was that again? Oh, yeah - last summer.
Kobe is a perfect candidate to flee the NBA for Europe. Both in international stature and personal makeup. Both because of his European background and the economic sense..."
Vaccaro, who has known Bryant forever and helped broker the deal that sent high school phenom Brandon Jennings to Italy rather than the NCAA, believes the possibility is real, saying it would be a major boost to Bryant's value as a player, solidifying his legacy and making him into a global icon (more so, I guess). He'd be blazing a trail even Michael Jordan never traveled.
"Kobe," Vaccaro said, "has a chance to add to his legend."
I've already written how I believe we're a long way off from major NBA stars making the jump from the NBA to Europe. It's a lot of fun to kick around the idea, and certainly owners have to be cognizant of the opportunities European teams can offer players. The NBA ought to use the Childress deal as a signal that some of its more restrictive rules need changing in order to make free agency a smoother process offering more viable options to teams and players.
But the notion of being a trailblazer, of adding to legend? I don't buy it.
If Kobe (or LeBron, or whomever) was given and then accepted that magical $50 million offer, it would be seen as a money grab, pure and simple. An understandable one on a lot of levels (I don't care who you are, $50 million is a lot of money to turn away, and besides, Europe is a lovely place to live on that kind of scratch, especially for someone with Kobe's background and ties to Italy), but a money grab nonetheless. For salary, for whatever marketing opportunities come along with it, but for money.
While I'm sure they'd be happy to have him, I think many Europeans would agree.
From a basketball standpoint, nothing Kobe would do overseas would help his legacy as a player, because while the quality of European basketball has improved immensely over the last couple decades, there still isn't the depth of talent and athleticism offered by the NBA. A championship overseas won't have the same cache as hoisting the Larry O'Brien. Beyond that, any NBA mega-star that makes the switch will, right or wrong, be expected to win a title, so actually doing it won't be seen as much of a resume builder. Is he really going to get props and adulation for being the first American icon to win a championship in an inferior league?
Perhaps the only potential basketball argument to be made would be the desire to internationalize the game even more, to step up and try to establish NBA quality leagues overseas. But if that was truly the purpose, if the on-court opportunities were that good and that meaningful, if the competition and growth of the game mattered that much, players wouldn't need $50 million to take the plunge.
I agree with Dilbeck that Kobe will make himself a free agent next summer, and no question the EuroTalk will buzz. But I don't expect him to get that concrete, big bucks offer, and believe the chances of him playing the 2009-10 season across the pond are remote. Should it happen, though, it won't enhance his basketball legacy, only his wallet.
BK
BK - [T]he chances of him playing the 2009-10 season across the pond are remote. Should it happen, though, it won't enhance his basketball legacy, only his wallet.
---
Very remote.
And even if circumstances somehow converged to a point where *it* "could" happen -- there's no pan euroleague agreement, no enforcement mechanism, no international adjudicating body currently in place to *guarantee* Bryant would be paid what was promised.
The CBA is a millstone on player salaries precisely because it guarantees payment based on mutually enforceable obligations.
Until or unless Euro teams are similarly obligated *and* accountable, $50 million promises aren't worth the lira they're printed on.
Posted by: latopia | September 20, 2008 at 09:35 AM
ExHelo,
I think your post regarding the Kobe haters is right on. I would only add that I think there is a third reason; probably ahead of the two you list--Colorado.
Posted by: Eric M. | September 20, 2008 at 09:47 AM
LakerTom,
I LOVE the idea of Lamar Odom playing a point forward role on the second team. I think he would be a heavy favorite for Sixth Man of the Year, if that were the case. And, of course, he'd get Manu Ginobili minutes, so he'd still get almost starter minute action.
I just think with Lamar Odom leading the second team, The Bench Mob would suddenly be on part to beat the starting units of a lot of NBA teams.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 20, 2008 at 09:54 AM
ex,
>>>>>Unfortunately, I don't think it would. I think that there are two main reasons why
>>>>>people dislike Kobe: resentment for daring to approach, and arguably reaching,
>>>>>the level of Michael Jordan, and that "selfish ball-hog" image cemented in their
>>>>>minds when he waved off Karl Malone's screen in the All-Star game. Kobe could
>>>>>win five more titles and those people would make up reasons not to like him.
>>>>>You can see it here on the blog with some of the posters.
You may unfortunately be right. I would add Shaq-Lovers like KL as the third group of Kobe-Haters who believe running down Kobe is somehow elevating Shaq in their minds. However, time may continue to mellow out even the KL’s of the world. We may even reach the day where you can lift a rock on the blog and not find a Kobe-Hater slithering and sliming their own private brand of logic. Despite his recent remission, even KL has seen Kobe in a new light, although he will probably regurgitate some tired, old, false arguments once he reads this.
At any rate, reality is that people do change their stripes. Just look at politics as an example. Kobe is becoming more and more likeable and taking less than the max to help the team would add to the continued respect and admiration of his fans and teammates – and even Haters.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | September 20, 2008 at 10:00 AM
AK/BK,
I know very little about this realm of basketball. Hopefully you guys can enlighten me.
I've been told that a lot of basketball players make considerably greater amounts of money through endorsements than they do through their actual salaries. If this is true, I'm assuming its also the case for Kobe Bryant, considering his status.
How would playing in Europe (or abroad in general) affect Kobe's endorsement income? And if it did affect his endorsement income, could you guys give a very rough estimate to the degree that it might positively or negatively affect his income in that regard?
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 20, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Good Morning, Laker Nation,
I have a general question for everyone, considering that we're talking about Kobe Bryant and money.
I personally think that Kobe Bryant will play until 37 or 38.
Let's say we sign Kobe Bryant to a seven year-$200 million contract. Will the weight of such a contract unduly hamper the Lakers ability to sign necessary young talent to keep this team in the continuous hunt for a Championship after Kobe is 34 years old?
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM
AK,
>>>>>For a guy like Kobe to do that, it basically comes down to the
>>>>>Don Corleone-esque "offer he can't refuse," one that's about a boatload of cash.
Gotta agree with your take on this 100%. Kobe is NOT going to play in the minor leagues short of an impossible offer. It reminds me of the scene from Heaven Can Wait where the former owner of the Rams is bemoaning to another team owner how he was forced to sell the Rams to Warren Beatty. The other team owner asks him how Warren Beatty “forced” him to sell the team and he answers that I gave him an outrageous price and he agreed to it.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | September 20, 2008 at 10:15 AM
LakerTom,
A lot of people may resent any discussion comparing Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan, and for good reason, Kobe Bryant simply has not accomplished as much in his career as Michael Jordan. Not even close.
However, Kobe Bryant has between five and nine years left to his career. If (when) Kobe Bryant begins winning championships with Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom and The Bench Mob, the weight of that comparison will begin to even itself out.
Let's say Kobe Bryant wins four more Championships in the next nine years and maintains a relatively consistent level of play, statistically speaking (and of course adjusted to the aging process), the comparisons between Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant will become a lot more appropriate.
Are they appropriate now? No.
Will they be appropriate if Kobe Bryant retires with seven rings as a starter? Oh yes they will and by that time the majority of people will assume that Kobe Bryant is a Greater player than Michael Jordan.
Time will tell. Good thing we've got a front seat in the process.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 20, 2008 at 10:16 AM
Let Kobe opt out. He's not going anywhere. The team's too good, the other players too good, the coaching and ownership are too good and and Newport Beach is about as nice a place to live as their is.
And if Dwane Wade wants to go to New York, how about LA?
The trade machine likes this trade:
Dwane Wade for Jordan Farmar and Pau Gasol.
Can you imagine the one two punch of Kobe and Wade? We saw what they did in the olympics, and the heat get a true 7 footer and Farmar...
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | September 20, 2008 at 10:42 AM
EricM,
"I would only add that I think there is a third reason; probably ahead of the two you list--Colorado"
I think that the vast majority of those people were already in one of the other categories. People who didn't already have a negative view of Kobe look at the results of the Colorado incident and realize that there was most likely no crime there.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | September 20, 2008 at 10:47 AM
lakertom
"You may unfortunately be right. I would add Shaq-Lovers like KL as the third group of Kobe-Haters who believe running down Kobe is somehow elevating Shaq in their minds. However, time may continue to mellow out even the KL’s of the world. We may even reach the day where you can lift a rock on the blog and not find a Kobe-Hater slithering and sliming their own private brand of logic. Despite his recent remission, even KL has seen Kobe in a new light, although he will probably regurgitate some tired, old, false arguments once he reads this."
um...thanks? please don't lump my position of shaq and kobe together. shaq has earned praise that this blog refuses to acknowledge. kobe has NOT earned the praise that this blog readily pushes.
all i'm saying is kobe hasn't really done anything as a laker without shaq. last season was a breakout season. i give credit to kobe, but in the whole scheme of things (ie, laker history), what has kobe ackomplished as a "man"?
Posted by: KL | September 20, 2008 at 11:07 AM
ex,
>>>>>I think that the vast majority of those people were already in one of the other
>>>>>categories. People who didn't already have a negative view of Kobe look at the
>>>>>results of the Colorado incident and realize that there was most likely no crime there.
Well said, ex. I just cannot understand how we can see eye to eye so often about basketball and the Lakers and yet be on opposite ends of the political spectrum. LOL.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | September 20, 2008 at 11:11 AM
ex
" Kobe could win five more titles and those people would make up reasons not to like him. You can see it here on the blog with some of the posters."
how about winning ONE as the lead guy? then let's talk. let's not forget, kobe open this door for "haters" when he, as a whippersnappin 19-year-old, compared himself to jordan.
i'd rather kobe prove it first, then make comparision. kobe has not even come close to reaching jordan's level. this blog will do every it can to dissuade the notion that kobe hasn't even come close to reaching jordan's legacy.
ya think a 13-year-kid is going to wear "kobe" products 10 years after kobe retires like people now readily wear "jordan" gear? doubt it.
i grew up saving weekly hopeing to buy my Air Jordan shoes. I look at kobe shoes and say "i'd rather buy jordan's shoes".
Posted by: KL | September 20, 2008 at 11:18 AM
ExHelo,
We'll have to disagree on this one. The reason I think Colorado is more important than you think is because it bothers me. The other stuff was just a young guy being cocky and wanting to be the best. Doesn't bother me at all.
I have always loved KB24 but must say that I really had to do a second take after colorado. Just because he paid her off and colorado went away, doesn't mean it wasn't a "nearly fatal" mistake. No one really knows what happen, and it will always be in the back of my mind; Even as I'm voting him into the HOF. ;-)
Posted by: Eric M. | September 20, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Jon,
>>>>>Are they appropriate now? No.
>>>>>Will they be appropriate if Kobe Bryant retires with seven rings as a starter?
>>>>>Oh yes they will and by that time the majority of people will assume that
>>>>>Kobe Bryant is a Greater player than Michael Jordan.
>>>>>Time will tell. Good thing we've got a front seat in the process.
Agreed. It is foolish to compare Kobe with MJ until he has completed his career. He has a chance to equal or surpass Michael but he will have to win at least 3 more rings and preferably 4, which I believe he will do. JMHO.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | September 20, 2008 at 11:28 AM
Otis Campbell,
>>>>>LakerTom - puleeze already. How many titles are Kobe and AB going to win?
>>>>>How many so far? You are, as always, too over the top. The NBA is a hard friggin'
>>>>>league with a lot of combos vying for the supreme prize - come down out of your
>>>>>spaceship and have an adult beverage.
You are, as always, just a fly in the ointment. Why does it bother you for other bloggers to talk about how many rings Kobe and Drew “might” win together? Any Lakers fan who can’t get a charge out of that subject must be mentally challenged in some way. Or just a naysayer.
If you think I am too optimistic, just scroll by my posts. Frankly, I would rather stay in my GHF spaceship and smoke what I want. I will let you and yours destroy your brains and livers with your “adult beverages.” Puleeze already. Stop whining and just scroll by.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | September 20, 2008 at 11:30 AM
KL,
I played too much basketball, my high school coach was an idiot, we basically had 6 offensive plays, 3 vs man 2 man, 3 versus zone....he hated me cuz he was always busting my chops because he didn't think I was trying hard enough, I'm a type B, things come naturally and I had the physical part down, I could see the game as I was playing it, and was exploring the mental part, I guess he didn't like it when he learned I was the instigator in the breakdown of his plays, and was teaching the other players variations off our basic plays...He called me in and I caught hell, on a personal level, so I told him he should't be f'ing the "guidance counselor"???? (She told me I should take more "shop" classes, because I would never make it in college, 2.6 GPA (drugs, girls, alcohol, ditched too much, but 1370 and 1420 on SAT..3.6 GPA in 1st college, B.S., 3.9 2nd college, another B.S. but it's what you would call a "professional degree"....I don't want to elaborate, cuz my job sucks)....I guess he shouldn't have been f'in his associate....I quit the team, and the mofo actually wanted me to stay with punishment, f-him, then got blackballed the rest of my time in high-school, all the gym teachers used to ride my ass. I was a decent athlete and I never even took conditioning seriously, I would just play. I ran alot, cross country, played tennis, baseball, tried football, but found it barbaric. They played favorites anyway. I had an NBA range jump shot, which could stay on long streaks..., but he wanted to grind it in to his guys...We used to play 3 on 3 for $50/game, and even then if one of those guys was on my team, it was grind it down, even though I was swishing net....I remember the last time I played in one of those games, I got lectured into passing it into the grinder, and he missed his dorky 1 foot jumper...told them, I woulda hit the 25 footer for the win, cuz I was on a streak that day....blackballed again...but you know what?, I got all the girls....
...also remember, don't know whey he had this stupid drill, I think it was to get me....at the end of practice, everyone would take 15 jumpshots, 3 point range, 3 from each spot, as you go from corner, side of key, top of key, side of key, other corner....5 outa 15 was best, I shot last, cuz I was checking out the cheerleaders or something, I hit 14 outa 15, mostly all net...then I told him, that was a waste of time, because you're only gonna let your "guys" shoot....
I hated high school, when I was there, it was great when we ditched, it was the 70's....everything goes, and did...
Posted by: humanomaly | September 20, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Jon K,
while I have no desire to do the debates about Lamar being on the bench or not as a 6th man, one of the problems I could foresee in the Point Forward role is when the bench comes out is that it will conflict with Jordan's own leadership with the bench mob. While not arrogant, Jordan is kinda cocky and having Lamar doing all the point duties could come into conflict with the role Jordan is supposed to do. If Jordan had improved himself to be a good catch and shoot point guard (like Paxson, Kerr, and Fisher) and has no problem being that until his time comes, then there would be no problem. However at the moment I see him as a classic dish and drive point guard. That is one thing concerning Lamar being a point forward for the bench.
When Jordan achieves 40% 3 point shooting then he would be a perfect fit in the offense with a penetrating shooting guard.
-blitz
Posted by: thekobebryantblitz | September 20, 2008 at 11:50 AM
KL,
>>>>>um...thanks? please don't lump my position of shaq and kobe together.
>>>>>shaq has earned praise that this blog refuses to acknowledge. kobe has NOT
>>>>>earned the praise that this blog readily pushes.
You are probably incapably of viewing the situation with an unbiased eye but you definitely have Kobe and Shaq on opposite ends of a teeter-totter. Every time, Kobe goes up, you think it makes Shaq go down and vice versa. In fact, you jump on Kobe thinking that will help elevate Shaq from the shameful and disgraceful path on which he is currently embarked. Maybe it will in your own mind but it just makes you look silly and biased to everybody else.
Most of the fans on the blog understand the reality of the Lakers most recent three-peat, which is that there were TWO players who were TOTALLY indispensible and without whom the Lakers would not have won those THREE championships – Shaquille O’Neal and Kobe Bryant. We give Shaq the credit but also realize that he has become his worst enemy these days.
You blithely claim to be a fan of team basketball but you refuse to accept the fact that it was a Lakers team – not just Shaq or any one player – who wins championships. Like Shaq would not have won 3 rings in LA without Kobe, he wouldn’t have won 1 ring in Miami without Wade. Like you keep saying but don’t really embrace, basketball is a team game. Kobe a team player.
>>>>> all i'm saying is kobe hasn't really done anything as a laker without shaq.
>>>>>last season was a breakout season. i give credit to kobe, but in the whole scheme
>>>>>of things (ie, laker history), what has kobe ackomplished as a "man"?
As a man, he showed great restraint and judgment to not respond to Shaq’s obscene, tasteless, and talentless rap against him. He showed he could evolve to the point where he won the complete trust and support of his teammates on the Lakers and on Team USA. He showed that he could provide the defensive orientation, leadership by example, and clutch shooting to lead team USA to the Gold. He showed he could lead an undermanned Lakers team to win the West and come within 2 games of winning the NBA Finals. I would say that was a pretty good set of accomplishments for a year.
Next year, Kobe and Drew will win the first of many more Lakers championships. Drew will give the Lakers and Kobe what Shaq did in his prime – a superstar center who can provide the center game to complement Kobe’s guard game. Of course, then you will claim that Kobe couldn’t win it without Drew – and you will be right but for the wrong reason. By then, I predict you will opt out of your contract with this blog and crawl back under that dark and dirty rock.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | September 20, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Good morning, KL,
I didn't realize that you were being sarcastic about the 4-1 break. My apologies. Had I known that, I certainly wouldn't have questioned your basketball knowledge.
I'm 34 years old, I grew up in Los Angeles, and I started watching the Lakers when I was about five (circa 1980). Magic. Norm. Coop. Kareem. I didn't become fanatical about the Lakers (ask my wife... she'll attest) until high school, circa 1988. Byron, Magic, Kareem, A.C. Green. Good times. So, yes, I remember when Kobe was very young in both his actions and his attitude. Of course Kobe was chasing Jordan in those days! That's what you do: you emulate the greatest players in the world, master their moves (to the best of your abilities), and try to become better than them. That's just human nature.
The Kobe I see now, though, is much more mature. In a RECENT interview, Kobe did shrug off comparisons to Jordan, stating, "Jordan? You're talking about the greatest player of all time." He also said that Jordan is Jordan, and people should stop comparing them. Does Jordan think he's better than Kobe? Damn right he does. Does Kobe think he's better than Jordan? An emphatic yes. Both these guys think they're the best to ever play the game, and that's why I love them. You have to think you're the best to be the best.
You state: "Very fine line between arrogance and confidence. Lebron and wade have confidence. Kobe has arrogance." You're just wrong here, KL. Lebron isn't arrogant? Wade isn't arrogant? What about the player from the Australian national team who said that Kobe was the most stand-up, respectful guy on the whole US team? He also said that Wade, specifically, was an arrogant jerk. Except he didn't say "jerk." I get it. You don't like Kobe. But your not liking Kobe is clouding your judgment, KL.
You might be old school. You like team ball. So do I, and it drives me crazy when Kobe goes one-on-one too much. But you love Jordan, right? Do you see where I'm going with this...?
I love Kobe. But I love the Lakers more, and I have for a long, long time. Long before Kobe was there. And long after he's gone. But right now, I love watching this guy play basketball. He amazes me every single night. There is NO BETTER PLAYER IN BASKETBALL RIGHT NOW. Wait... who said that...? Oh, right. It was Jordan.
Go Lake Show!
Posted by: The Outlaw | September 20, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Aloha K.L
You are correct that Kobe hasnt won anything without Shaq. But you always seem to overlook the fact that Shaq couldnt lead the Lakers to a ring until Kobes game matured despite the fact that he had plenty of quality role players surrounding him.
If you look back over the last few decades of the NBA the only team that has won a ring without at least 2 great players was Detroit and they had 5 guys that have made an all star game.
As for Shaq he needed Kobe and later D-Wade to win it all. This is why if you are fair you can see that it took both of them to win it all and I doubt if Shaq would have done it either without Kobe.
This year with health we have a very good chance of winning it all, but it will not be just because of Kobe. It will be because of the addition of another great player in Pau and the continued maturity of Andrew. Plus some excelent role player.
The simple fact supported by NBA history is, it takes at least 2.
MH
Posted by: michael h | September 20, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Long time since I've posted, but I read often.
Let's assume Kobe does opt out of his contract at the end of the year, where's he going to go? What team in the NBA could simply sign him to a free agent contract at max value? None! Almost any team would have to involve the Lakers in a sign and trade deal and they would likely have to jettison a number of high dollar contracts back to the Lakers in order to sign Kobe. Most likely, that team would then be devoid of the quality of team mates Kobe would need to pursue more NBA championships. Why would Kobe even consider this kind of move? He wouldn't. A move like that would be lateral in dollars and down hill in team talent level. Not going to happen, take it to the bank.
The second option is Europe. However, those rich Euro-team owners didn't get rich by tossing their money around freely. What makes anyone think any of them are prepared to toss Kobe $50 mil to play in 40 or so games? Assume half the games are home games, the rest are road games. How do they make their investment pay for itself? Don't forget they also have to pay the rest of the team, or will it be Kobe & the scrubettes vs whoever? No way!
Kobe is already a Laker forever. He'll probably opt out, sign a new deal with the Lakers at a reasonable price and go on to become the BOAT. If he didn't intend to stay a Laker, why wouldn't he have opted to have his finger surgery now rather than next year.
Nope, Kobe is a Laker forever. Done deal.
Posted by: Laker Larry | September 20, 2008 at 12:26 PM
KL,
Don't you get tired of singing the same old crappy tune?
You wrote: um...thanks? please don't lump my position of shaq and kobe together. shaq has earned praise that this blog refuses to acknowledge. kobe has NOT earned the praise that this blog readily pushes.
all i'm saying is kobe hasn't really done anything as a laker without shaq. last season was a breakout season. i give credit to kobe, but in the whole scheme of things (ie, laker history), what has kobe ackomplished as a "man"?
my response:
No one has said Shaq didn't do good things in LA. Your
constant ridiculing of Kobe is factually biased and
un-sound.
http://tinyurl.com/4xjwec
This link from the NBA says: he was chosen as one of the NBA’s 50 Greatest Players of All-Time in 1996 and was a seven-time All-Star, including the game’s MVP in 1994. [ scottie Pippen ]
This is who MJ played with when he won 6
championships. Has Kobe played with anyone of this
caliber? Yes. Shaq. 4 years ago.
Regardless of what thekobebryantblitz thinks about
Lamar Odom the fact is that Lamar Odom has
accomplished nothing close to what Pippen did.
Did MJ ever play with someone as ... "interesting" as
Smush Parker? What did MJ do with Kwame Brown?
Ok. I'm focusing on MJ. Let's not do that. Let's focus
on Shaq.
Has Shaq ever scored 80 pts in an NBA game? How about
30 pts in a quarter? How about a perfect quarter?
Well, how diligent is Shaq about becoming a better
basketball player? NBA 2007/2008 phx vs. spurs.
Coach Popovich employed the hack-a-shaq technique
and the spurs beat the suns. 15 years in the league
and he still can't shoot free throws. Do you find this
praiseworthy?
Do you find Shaq's restraining order praiseworthy?
In case you've forgotten, he threatened a female
rapper. [ the fact that Kobe went to trial for rape sucks.
the fact that the case was dismissed lends credit to his
innocence. since a restraining order was issued for
shaq he wasn't found innocent. ]
Do you find Shaq's divorce praiseworthy?
Shaq dogged it with the Miami Heat until he was traded
and then suddenly he began to play. Is this praisworthy?
Yes. He was part of a championship team with the
Miami Heat. D-Wade won the finals MVP not Shaq.
Is it praiseworthy to you that Shaq did *NOT* win the
finals MVP? Do you think that D-Wade won the
finals MVP because of Shaq?
This is what Kobe has accomplished without Shaq:
81 pt. game.
2 time scoring champion.
3 trips to the playoffs
1 trip to the NBA finals.
1 mvp.
1 Olympic championship
This url: http://tinyurl.com/2nmd9z from espn says:
He was the fastest player to 20,000 points
one of the best two-way players at any position.
He was voted as being better than Jerry West.
This url: http://tinyurl.com/3f7d29 says:
Shaq is #5 behind Wilt, Kareem, Russell, &
George Mikan.
You can argue that they were all ahead of his time.
Granted. #6 on the list is: Hakeem Olajuwon
Do you remember what happened when Shaq met
Hakeem in the NBA finals? He got spanked. He got
spanked so bad he cried. http://tinyurl.com/53lmbj
Is that praiseworthy to you?
In terms of NBA championships the record is:
Wins Losses Player
3 2 kb
4 2 the fat man
In terms of NBA scoring tittles, the record is:
1 for the fat man
2 for Kobe.
In terms of NBA all-star MVP's the record is:
2 for the wannabee rap star
2 for Kobe.
In terms of NBA all-defense selection wikipedia has:
0 for the donut eater
8 for Kobe.
[ In case you haven't figured it out, that means kb got
3 without dealing with the unofficial Krispy Kreame CEO ]
In terms of NBA MVP's, the record is:
1 for the fat criminal
1 for kb24.
Finally, please name me one MVP, not on Shaq's team,
who says he's the best player in the game?
You do know what LeBron said about Kobe, right?
You caught what Larry Bird said about Kobe, right?
Coach K?
This list is a bit longer, but I trust I've made my point....
Finally, this is the best part:
You're donut eating, rapper stalking, bad movie making,
throwing former teams & teammates under the buss
( inclusive of HOF coaches/championship players ) has
2 years of declining production left for the phx suns.
KB has 6-8 years of playing at a high level in which he will hopefully win 6 championships. [ I said hopefully. :) ]
Why don't you go get a box of Krispy Kreams and search
online for one of Shaq's horrendously bad movies to
watch? Then you can think back on glory days when
Shaq was relevant to "who's going to win the
NBA championship conversations".
Posted by: hobbitmage | September 20, 2008 at 01:05 PM
Hey LakerTom;
I suggested that you come down from your spaceship and have an adult beverage - not hit the photon torpedos on another rather vicious attack. KL is smooth and opinionated - big deal. You are plain silly with most of your homer comments. Which crack did you come out from? We know your view - you don't have to tell us 15 times a blog. Geez!
Posted by: Otis Campbell | September 20, 2008 at 01:28 PM
The hobbitimage hath spoken. I will now tip a beer in your general direction, my friend.
Go Lake Show!
Posted by: The Outlaw | September 20, 2008 at 01:29 PM
Some musings and ramblings ... Not worried about what Kobe does at the end of his contract. The NBA is like dating: enjoy the hot girl you're with when you're with her. ... Kobe did achieve something without Shaq: a Gold Medal ... Josh Howard is a tool. How dare he spew such venom in public? He's not an important spokesperson or celebrity. He plays for the Mavericks. That's a team that's more famous for its owner than its accomplishments. ... A ten game suspension for Darius Miles seems a little light. Pro athletes give up their right to enjoy a spliff when they sign that big contract. ... Can't wait for Lakers camp to begin. ... Have a great weekend, everybody.
Posted by: Rick Friedman | September 20, 2008 at 02:57 PM
Why don't you go get a box of Krispy Kreams and search online for one of Shaq's horrendously bad movies to watch? Then you can think back on glory days when Shaq was relevant to "who's going to win the NBA championship conversations".
Posted by: hobbitmage | September 20, 2008 at 01:05 PM
Kudos hobbitmage. I almost thought it was AK biatchslapping KL again.
Yo KL, "Head on, apply directly to your forehead, Head on apply directly to your forehead,Head on....................."
lol.
Posted by: Lakergurl | September 20, 2008 at 03:35 PM
hobbitmage speaks for me.
hobbitmage for white house press secretary!
Posted by: Benjamin | September 20, 2008 at 04:16 PM
thekobebryantblitz,
I see your point about Jordan Farmar as point guard and Lamar Odom as point forward on the second team potentially being a problem. However, perhaps something could be worked as Farmar is more an aggressive cocky leader and Lamar Odom more of a quiet leader. Perhaps a dynamic could be established where they could compliment each other through a lot of ball movement.
Just a thought.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 20, 2008 at 04:29 PM
By the way, it is very difficult to be a UCLA Bruins football fanatic right now.
GO BRUINS!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 20, 2008 at 04:30 PM
Jon K,
"How would playing in Europe (or abroad in general) affect Kobe's endorsement income? And if it did affect his endorsement income, could you guys give a very rough estimate to the degree that it might positively or negatively affect his income in that regard?"
Honestly, I can't answer that question with any real knowledge. I can't even think of a precedent to make an educated against. Off the top of my head, I think it depends a lot on how much access Americans would have to Kobe's games. As it stands, it's much easier for someone in Europe to see the NBA on TV than vice versa. Thus, if Kobe's going to be largely out of sight stateside, I have to imagine that's a big minus. Basketball, while big overseas, is still biggest in America, so I don't see why Nike- or whoever- would pay as much or more to a guy whose visibility would have a net decrease worldwide.
Then again, Hollywood actors get paid boatloads to do commercials in places like Japan, so maybe Kobe would make the same (or even more) endorsing products known almost exclusively abroad (as opposed to the Nikes and Cokes of the world).
My gut is that playing overseas would hurt Kobe's endorsement ability more than help it. But again, like I said, I'm mostly spitballing. I'm not really the guy to ask.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | September 20, 2008 at 05:11 PM
I really want to see how the lineup with Lamar, Bynum, and Gasol works, and I hope it does work well. I love Lamar, and I really hope he can a be a Laker for the rest of his career. Still if it does not work I have a trade that I think would be very good: http://tinyurl.com/4l9c6t . We would probably need to give the Pacers draft picks in order for this to work. Wouldn't we have only Josh Powell to back up Pau at the four. For that we could use another trade: http://tinyurl.com/4bep5m . I really don't know if either of these are very fair for our trading counterparts, but we did get Pau for Kwame Brown, so God must be a Laker fan.
Posted by: laker hopeful | September 20, 2008 at 05:13 PM
AK,
Thanks for the feedback.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 20, 2008 at 06:07 PM
All I wanna say is I think the current thread is a waste of time ...
kb24 wants to be the greatest player ever to touch a basketball ... it's only right that he do so by leading the greatest franchise in the league, it's only right that he do so by being a part of the greatest dynasty the league will know
I've been watching highlights on you-tube, just search for lakers 08-09 and enjoy, feel the pride, feel the aniticipation ... and let me just touch on another topic as well ... I dont lamar to be traded ... Artest would have made a great addition but I mean this team has earned the right to stay intact ... they're good enough to win, they've got heart ...
And the omens are good too, the last 3peat, I was living in Chicago then ... and guess what I just moved back to chitown ... I can't wait for the season to start ...
So F europe and w/e else people are using to kill time ... think kobe ... think 5 more season mvps ... maybe 6 finals mvp ... think say 5 or 6 more championships ... I mean aint nothing in Europe can top that ... this is it, this is the moment we've all been waiting for ... this is when the world finally acknowledges what we all know already
http://tinyurl.com/54bn9t
http://tinyurl.com/4p6gn7
Posted by: taliq | September 20, 2008 at 06:09 PM
We all screaming dynasty but truth is there the competition in the west go better and if we make it out of the west there's a good chance we'll see the celtics again. Lets not take anything from what they did, they beat us with bynum in the regular season, they beat us with gasol in the post season, and through all the games they showed our lauded offense why they're the best defense in the league
http://tinyurl.com/4cvqbt
So while it may seem to us like a new dynasty is destined be ours, let us not forget it will not be easy but then again we wouldn't have it any other way. Laker nations remembers and inspite of that, we scream dynasty, we believe.
Posted by: taliq | September 20, 2008 at 06:30 PM
KL, what has Kobe done as a man?
he has worked his butt off.
asking that question puts your manhood on hold, boy.
Posted by: blahblahblah | September 20, 2008 at 08:05 PM
The truth is that none of us knows what Kobe would do. Kobe probably doesn't know what Kobe would do. There's variables here. What happens if he wins mvp PLUS a ring this year? Is he going to look around and wonder, what mountain next? Is it more rings, more records or something else. What would create the biggest seismic wave? My guess is that he'll keep everyone guessing. High wire acts are like that.
Posted by: dave m | September 20, 2008 at 10:35 PM
Bring back Sunderland......fire Joel Myers
Posted by: Mikey | September 21, 2008 at 12:05 AM
wesjoenixon,
you wrote: The trade machine likes this trade:
Dwane Wade for Jordan Farmar and Pau Gasol.
Can you imagine the one two punch of Kobe and Wade? We saw what they did in the olympics, and the heat get a true 7 footer and Farmar...
my response: Does that trade work for Lamar Odom too?
If we had a choice b/n Odom & Pau I would prefer for Pau
to stay. We *seem* to have less in the way of quality
centers than forwards.
Posted by: hobbitmage | September 21, 2008 at 07:49 AM
Jon K,
You asked how going to Europe would change Kobe's marketability.
It most certainly would. As you know, there's a large contingency in the U.S. that view Kobe in a negative way. Between Kate Faber and Shaq's outburst, the general public perceives Kobe as a selfish ego maniac. Thus, your KL types. Only those that truly pay attention to the game know any better.
Kobe used to be bigger than even that Bron guy in endorsements. He had that wholesome image. Now he's not much more marketable than AI. Faber and Shaq cost Kobe more money than he could ever hope to earn in Europe.
But, in Europe, Kobe hasn't been the victim of media scrutiny. Besides, their culture in Europe is far different than it is here. They're a little more progressive over there socially. Kobe in Europe would mean getting some of that marketability back.
But that's just my view, of course.
Posted by: Tim-4-Show | September 21, 2008 at 07:58 AM
BK,
you wrote: There's a difference between international play and the quality of the leagues. Europe is definitely able to assemble very strong national squads, but the quality of the individual leagues isn't close to what the NBA has. It just isn't. The right comparison would be teams in the leagues to teams in the NBA, and not teams in the NBA to the national squads. In that sense, the NBA teams are superior.
As for winning a title in another league, it doesn't really matter if that league is considered lesser quality. And in terms of players coming to play with him? Who? For how much money?
my response:
http://tinyurl.com/53gfuc Memphis lost.
http://tinyurl.com/4q2nwq Raptors lost.
I would suggest that you have a myopic view of things.
Barkley never won a championship. That did not stop
him from being considered one of the 50 best. What
is your criteria for being a "better" league?
I would suggest that with the majority of people on
earth living outside of the US, there's a much larger
talent pool for europe to draw on. Kobe's status, as
an international athlete, *could* draw college players
from the US as well as players from Latin america,
Russia, & Europe into the euroleague. [ i.e.
Rudy Fernandez remains in europe instead of coming
to the US. AK-47 goes back to europe. etc. ]
*IF and only IF* his playing in europe lifted the level of
play, his basketball legacy would certainly grow. If
after moving to europe, there started to be games
where the NBA champs played the Euro champs and
the games were close ... you get my point.
I seem to recall someone talking about endorsements.
Consider the market of the US vs. the markets of:
*ALL OF LATIN AMERICA*, the french territories in the
carribean & indian ocean, the former french territories
in africa, russia, china, & the G7/G8 countries.
The endorsement opportunities are there.
Once again, just my $0.02.
Posted by: hobbitmage | September 21, 2008 at 08:21 AM
humanomaly,
thanks for sharing your experience. i might be a little older than you, but you'll find your way. you seem like a smart guy who actually plays the sport unlike some (perhaps most) this blog.
notthing infuriates me more than someone popping off about a sport (or profession) who doesn't actually play it. it's easy to say "shaq can't make free throws" when one has never shot free thows in a game.
nice chat.
Posted by: KL | September 21, 2008 at 08:41 AM
lakertom
"You are probably incapably of viewing the situation with an unbiased eye but you definitely have Kobe and Shaq on opposite ends of a teeter-totter. Every time, Kobe goes up, you think it makes Shaq go down and vice versa."
you might remember me as the "KLBeast" chracter, but i'm much more intelligent than you might think. in the real world, i might even be your boss, but i digress. i know reality isn't mutually exclusive, but i see your point.
“In fact, you jump on Kobe thinking that will help elevate Shaq from the shameful and disgraceful path on which he is currently embarked. Maybe it will in your own mind but it just makes you look silly and biased to everybody else.”
All I’m doing is bring some perspective to this blog. I could argue that this blog is heavily biased AGAINST shaq. Please re-read the above objectively and tell me that’s not true.
“Most of the fans on the blog understand the reality of the Lakers most recent three-peat, which is that there were TWO players who were TOTALLY indispensible and without whom the Lakers would not have won those THREE championships – Shaquille O’Neal and Kobe Bryant.”
This is what you kobe lovers would like to think, but it’s re-writing history. The 3-peat was a “team effort” led (underscore “led”) by shaq evidenced by this 3 finals MVP. Nice try.
“We give Shaq the credit but also realize that he has become his worst enemy these days.”
I don’t belive this blog gives credit to shaq. I don’t follow shaq been the “worst enemy”. The dude’s getting old and is making a fool of himself as he gets closer to retirement. Should have no impact on kobe and what the lakers do. The best form of reverge for kobe and company is to win a title. Period. end of story.
“You blithely claim to be a fan of team basketball but you refuse to accept the fact that it was a Lakers team – not just Shaq or any one player – who wins championships.”
I’ve said that from day one b-ball is a team sport. Shaq was the unquestioned leader of the lakers until 2003 when kobe started acting a fool. I’ve admitted that I was a kobe fan until 2003.
“As a man, he showed great restraint and judgment to not respond to Shaq’s obscene, tasteless, and talentless rap against him.”
Agreed. Shaq was acting foolish.
“He showed he could lead an undermanned Lakers team to win the West and come within 2 games of winning the NBA Finals. I would say that was a pretty good set of accomplishments for a year.”
Agreed. I’ve openly commended kobe and the laker team and admitted that I was wrong about kobe.
“Next year, Kobe and Drew will win the first of many more Lakers championships.”
If this happens, KL=kobe lover, right? We’re on the same page here. I’d like to see Drew play the entire season and playoffs before I make judgement his status as a "superstar".
“By then, I predict you will opt out of your contract with this blog and crawl back under that dark and dirty rock.”
You have a way to insulting someone intelligently. I’m not afraid of taking crap as I give it. I post multiple times last season, but the k-buddies rightfully enforced my punishment. I’ll be happy to take you (or anybody) on intelligently, or otherwise, any time. in fact, i wouldn't mind playing you one-on-one on the court.
Good chat.
Posted by: KL | September 21, 2008 at 08:55 AM
Outlaw
“I didn't realize that you were being sarcastic about the 4-1 break. My apologies. Had I known that, I certainly wouldn't have questioned your basketball knowledge.”
No worries bro. I’m not sure if you were around during my “KLBeast” days, but I use to talk a lot of crap. BTW, feel free to question my b-ball knowledge (or general knowledge) anytime. I can take it.
“I'm 34 years old, I grew up in Los Angeles, and I started watching the Lakers when I was about five (circa 1980). Magic. Norm. Coop. Kareem. I didn't become fanatical about the Lakers (ask my wife... she'll attest) until high school, circa 1988. Byron, Magic, Kareem, A.C. Green. Good times.”
I don’t like to give too much personal info about myself on this blog, but we share similar experiences. Perhaps we’re a little spoiled by the “showtime lakers” of yesteryears.
“So, yes, I remember when Kobe was very young in both his actions and his attitude. Of course Kobe was chasing Jordan in those days! That's what you do: you emulate the greatest players in the world, master their moves (to the best of your abilities), and try to become better than them. That's just human nature.”
Agreed. Hell, I was pretending to by Jordan myself. Haha. But my problem with kobe is that he made the comparison and has not lived up to it. I don’t mind that kobe lobbied for shaq’s departure, but I expect to kobe deliver a championship.
“The Kobe I see now, though, is much more mature. In a RECENT interview, Kobe did shrug off comparisons to Jordan, stating, "Jordan? You're talking about the greatest player of all time."”
Agreed. This is why I’ve soften up on the kobe haterade.
“You're just wrong here, KL. Lebron isn't arrogant? Wade isn't arrogant? What about the player from the Australian national team who said that Kobe was the most stand-up, respectful guy on the whole US team? He also said that Wade, specifically, was an arrogant jerk. Except he didn't say "jerk." I get it. You don't like Kobe. But your not liking Kobe is clouding your judgment, KL.”
You might be right. I view lebron and wade as confident, but I very well might be wrong.
“You might be old school. You like team ball. So do I, and it drives me crazy when Kobe goes one-on-one too much. But you love Jordan, right? Do you see where I'm going with this...?”
Difeerence is when I use to watch the Jordan (and pippen) Bulls, and Hakeem Rockets too, the “man” (ie Jordan and Hakeem) would make stars out of guys like paxon , kerr and maxwell. I have yet to see kobe make a name of “the other guy” when kobe is triple- quadrupled-teamed. Get it? Jordan/Hakeem (Shaq too) looked good by making others look better, but most importantly, won championships.
“I love Kobe. But I love the Lakers more, and I have for a long, long time. Long before Kobe was there. And long after he's gone. But right now, I love watching this guy play basketball. He amazes me every single night. There is NO BETTER PLAYER IN BASKETBALL RIGHT NOW. Wait... who said that...? Oh, right. It was Jordan.”
We can agree to the extent that we’re both fans of b-ball and of the lakers. I will say that I do enjoy watching kobe’s individual abilities, but not when it negatively impacts the team. Last season was the first time in a very long time, I actually watched the lakers and said, kobe’s doing a good job and not hogging the ball.
Nice chat.
Posted by: KL | September 21, 2008 at 09:09 AM
Aloha mike (BTW, when I use “aloha mike”, I mean the pronoun Aloha Mike not “hi mike”)
“You are correct that Kobe hasnt won anything without Shaq. But you always seem to overlook the fact that Shaq couldnt lead the Lakers to a ring until Kobes game matured despite the fact that he had plenty of quality role players surrounding him.”
I disagree. I think if you replace kobe with penny or any other decent 2 guard during the 2000-2002 lakers, the lakers could have won it all. Shaq, in his prime, made the game easy for everybody. Have you ever played ball where there’s a dominant guy who attracts a lot of attention? It’s easy to score because all you have to do is move without the ball or be ready to catch and shoot or catch and drive.
“As for Shaq he needed Kobe and later D-Wade to win it all. This is why if you are fair you can see that it took both of them to win it all and I doubt if Shaq would have done it either without Kobe.”
So far, I could argue that wade, kobe and penny couldn’t win WITHOUT shaq, not the other way around. Look at the post-shaq magic, laker and Miami.
“This year with health we have a very good chance of winning it all, but it will not be just because of Kobe. It will be because of the addition of another great player in Pau and the continued maturity of Andrew. Plus some excelent role player. The simple fact supported by NBA history is, it takes at least 2.”
I’d add it takes 5 (more specifically, it takes 15) to wn it all. It also takes a superstar not concerned with individual greatness and a willingness to let someone else shine. I was really hopping that kobe would let Pau shine in the playoffs last year after the monster 30/15 performance.
Posted by: KL | September 21, 2008 at 09:16 AM
KL, what has Kobe done as a man?
he has worked his butt off.
asking that question puts your manhood on hold, boy.
Posted by: blahblahblah | September 20, 2008 at 08:05 PM
I KNOW LOT'S OF GUY WHO WORK HARD AND DON'T ACCOMPLISH MUCH. WORKING HARD PER SE DOES NOT EQUATE TO SUCCESS, GETTING RESULTS IS WHAT MATTERS.
sorry for the all cap Mr. Blah, but i wanted to make certain you got the message.
Posted by: KL | September 21, 2008 at 09:19 AM
Tim-4-Show,
Kobe sure was stupid to have sex with a borderline personality disorder lunatic like Kate Faber. It was a terrible thing for him to do, not only for his family, but for his legacy.
I do think that we should keep AK's perspective on Kobe's marketability in mind. Kobe has finally turned the corner in terms of receiving fair/positive press. Usually that means that endorsements will soon follow and winning usually accelerates that process.
If Kobe played in Europe, America (arguably the world's largest sports market) wouldn't have access to his games and, thus, his endorsements here would suffer greatly, even if they improved in Europe.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | September 21, 2008 at 09:46 AM
KL,
Hard work ALWAYS pays off!
Posted by: Mrs. Blah | September 21, 2008 at 10:37 AM
Mike T
You're wrong.Kobe won't leave if they fail to win the title this year.The reason being - where would he go? even if the lakers fall short they've still got a team that will contend the following year.That doe'n#t mean they'll necessarily win it and Kobe knows that - what would he do if he left? He's determined to get a championship as the number one guy he's not going to cheapen himself by signing up with lebron in New York or anything...and going to somewhere else to be the finishing touch won't necessarily mean he's in a better position than here...in fact almost defintely worse as a team goes through the growing pains the lakers will have largely ironed out by then
Kobe is happy - he doesn't NEED to win a championship - he just wanted to be put in a position where he could compete for one.Theres a big difference
Posted by: Kiwi | September 21, 2008 at 11:20 AM
AK/BK,
Moving Iraq, in Dubai as we speak. So I wont chime for a while, but NBA.com is going to keep me up all things Lakers, so here's a premature Lets KICK the crap out of the Celtics. Lakers rule the basketball world. I will be able to read though, yall keep blogging.
Posted by: Najja aka Bonus | September 21, 2008 at 11:25 AM