Question of the day: Olympic hoops
The Olympic basketball tournament is about to start (word is that Kobe guy is playing). I'll admit, in terms of attention paid and depth of emotional investment, I've been pretty lax regarding both the hoops contest and the Games in general. Now that things are rolling (I'm currently watching men's rowing), I'll probably pay closer attention ... but generally prefer watching sports I otherwise wouldn't see (men's rowing, for example). I'd by lying if I said I was wrapped up in whether the U.S. wins a hardwood gold. Not that I'm rooting against them, I've just become accustomed to the notion that it's an international game now, and the rest of the world is pretty good. Add in the different rules (and often questionable whistles) of FIBA ball, and the days of an American team -- no matter who is on it -- being guaranteed victory are over. That said, it should be some entertaining ball, worth watching.
Which brings me to the QOTD: Very simple. On a scale of 1-10, how much do you care about the "Redeem Team" and the Olympic basketball tourney? Are you watching as a Kobe fan? Hoops fan? Should the U.S. not win gold, how will you react?
BK
How about that Michael Phelps? I really think he is
going to win 8 Gold. GO USA GO! This China group
may well win more medals than the US. Those guys
are a juggernaught.
Posted by: Mamba24 | August 11, 2008 at 11:34 AM
As I've grown older and traveled the world I've come to a few inevitable conclusions...
1. America is imperfect, but America rocks!
2. Most other countries suck.
3. Almost all other countries are deeply envious of America, its power, and its quality of life.
4. People who focus obsessively on American's imperfections are overwhelmingly pretencious, self-righteous doucebags without heart or an understanding of the value of prgamatic living.
GO USA!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 11, 2008 at 11:35 AM
What S. Tan is saying, there are some cultures and population where american democracy may not work. Like in Singapore, there is an authoritarian figure who practices benevolent democracy for the economic benefit of their population. In China, we may not agree with their human rights practices but they have to rule with iron hand in controlling the 1.3 billion population and their fragmented past with several conflicting dynasties and the excesses and corruption of the Nationalist government during the Kuomintang era. Gradually, China is evolving as its commerce prosper but it would be difficult to impose American freedom, it may take some time and the evolution of generational changes from frequent communication in the internet age. Not too long ago, I had a debate with Jon K on what kind of government is Russia, whether a Commonwealth Democratic States or a former Communinist with a new label. Suddenly, few days ago the russian tanks crossed Georgia, a reminder of what happened in Hungary in mid 50's. It takes time for countries to learn what democracy truly means.
This is a topic that is hard to discuss in the blog because it pertains to old traditions, present customs, culture, political survival and economics. We have to leave it as-is and let the affected countries and future generation decide its course.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | August 11, 2008 at 11:47 AM
10!!! Bottom line is that I'm a basketball fan, through in and throughout. Basketball is my favorite sport, as a spectator and a player...AND my favorite current player, Kobe, is playing...so this Olympic bball tournament is very interesting to me. As a basketball fan, how can you not revel in watching this "Redeem Team" play....imho, at least.
Posted by: Josh Kibbey | August 11, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Jon K.
"All cultures may not be alike, but, ethically speaking, all individuals have natural rights that can only be safeguarded within the context of a democracy."
While Idealistically I would agree, this is a notion still based in our own egocentrism. What has democracy shown us anyway? That power is still held by the majority of the rich...Communism, in theory, works better in that respect.
Ultimately (and I will probably be flamed big time for this) equality, whether human, or other, is still an aesthetic human ideal. There is no such thing as equality in the animal kingdom.
Given the option of democracy, I am willing to bet you'll find many peoples unable to make the correct decision (for themselves or their countrymen) and who would ultimately bring ruin to their own country.
Posted by: S.Tan | August 11, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Call me a self-righteous douchebag if you want, it's the easiest way to close one's mind.
my point is not so much that america is not always right, but that other countries are not always wrong.
Posted by: S.Tan | August 11, 2008 at 11:58 AM
EDWIN the diplomat. How are you my mentor. Good to
see you are holding down the fort.
Now, Now Jon K. No name calling. LOL!
Good to see we have some Patriots though.
Posted by: Mamba24 | August 11, 2008 at 11:59 AM
Benjamin,
>>>Lakers. 2004.
>>>
>>>Oh yes. That's right. Remember?
>>>Shaq. Kobe. Payton. Malone. Fisher. Grant. Fox.
>>>
>>>And they lost to whom?
>>>
>>>That's right. The Detroit Pistons...
After Karl Malone suffered a debilitating injury in the Western
Conference Finals.
Malone who defended Tim Duncan in the second round
and Kevin Garnett in the Western Conference Finals
and schooled them both.
It's funny how you guys give 100% of the credit in that
year and 2008 to the opponents' defense and ignore the
fact that in both cases the Lakers 3rd best player in each
case was injured.
I'm not saying it's an excuse because injuries are part of
the playoffs. In 2004, Sam Cassell was injured for the
Timberwolves, making the Lakers job easier and in 2008
Manu Ginobili was injured.
What I am saying is that you can't choose a single factor
and say "THIS is what makes you win championships".
Clearly, you have to have both good offense and good defense
to win championships.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | August 11, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Mike T,
>>>You judge a team's offense by the amount of points they score.
No. Actually I don't.
Field goal percentage would be a more telling stat than
number of points.
But I judge it by offensive rating - the # of points scored per
100 posessions. That takes things like turnovers and
pace into account.
Tha Lakers were the 3rd best offense in the league for 2008.
Celtics were 9th.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | August 11, 2008 at 12:08 PM
S.TAN your beliefs may not be popular but you pose some very good questions and
for that I salute you.
Posted by: Mamba24 | August 11, 2008 at 12:11 PM
S.Tan,
Democracy may be a broken, failed system, but it is by far the best system out there.
Democracy is not supposed to create an equality of classes. It's supposed to allow for the possibility of class movement and individual liberties... and usually it does.
Communism is the idealistic delusion of a couple of crazed German lunatic intellectuals and it is bad for the human spirit.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 11, 2008 at 12:26 PM
S.Tan,
There are things that are good in every culture/country; however, most countries are burdened by hundreds, if not thousands of years, of continuous cultural mores/ethos.
The burden of this weight of history is constraining to the essential creative and innovative genius of the individual human spirit.
And most people are born into this burden.
As such, most other countries suck, because the cultural burden their citizens are born into crushes the spiritual potential of those citizens.
And limits their natural rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
GO USA!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 11, 2008 at 12:31 PM
Thank you Mamba, we miss your presence and the roll call so we cross the line of hoops to Olympics and the ideology of Mike Tiniente. lol!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | August 11, 2008 at 12:39 PM
I just want to point out that if you ignore games 3 and 5, then
the Celtics SWEPT the Lakers.
SWEPT THEM.
AND AVERAGED BEATING THEM BY OVER 15 POINTS PER
GAME.
15 POINTS.
THAT MEANS THAT THE LAKERS WERE NEVER EVEN
CLOSE IN ANY GAME IN THE SERIES.
THE LAKERS ARE SOOOOOOO SOFT.
Sorry. Couldn't help myself.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | August 11, 2008 at 12:45 PM
S. Tan
"my point is not so much that america is not always right, but that other countries are not always wrong."
I agree with you 100%. No country is infallible and as such, America can be wrong, and has been on many occasions. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
The illusion of freedom that we all enjoy is only as real as the construct in which it exists. In the United States, I would argue, that paradigm is as complete as it is anywhere else in the world, actually probably more so.
No true democracy exists, especially not in America. Although we all continue to call it a democracy, it has never been one. We are a Republic, and always have been.
I'm enjoying this discussion. I hope we can continue it on civil course.
Jon K. Please stop insulting people whose ideas are different from yours.
Posted by: "Pig" Miller | August 11, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Ohhhh a political discussion. I LOVE IT!!!
The West is the best, TO US!!!! China has its own system and we should not judge it. If we want freedom of speech, rights, democracy and separation of church and state to continue, we have to love ourselves first and get our doo doo together. Otherwise, China's racist nationalism will have been proven better in the ultimate sense of the word, the ability to survive.
PS I was reaaallly disappointed by Soon Yue's performance. He doesn't look ready to play college hoop here. He often dribbled back to the half court line to start and drove never. His great block was countered by weak bounce passes and bricks. He is NOT the answer.
GOOOOooOOOO LAKERS!!!
Posted by: JohnnyP | August 11, 2008 at 12:53 PM
"Democracy is not supposed to create an equality of classes. It's supposed to allow for the possibility of class movement and individual liberties..."-Jon K
It's Capitalism for class movement. It's Democracy for individual liberties.
Capitalism vs. Communism
Democracy vs. Totalitarianism
Posted by: Rocky | August 11, 2008 at 12:57 PM
John K,
"People who focus obsessively on America's imperfections are overwhelmingly pretencious, self-righteous doucebags without heart or an understanding of the value of pragamatic living."
--It goes both ways.
--People who obsessively ignore America's imperfections are overwhelmingly pretencious, self-righteous sheep without a brain or an understanding of the value of pragmatic living.
--In other words, just because the Lakers are the greatest basketball franchise in the world, does not mean I can't criticize Smush, Kwame, Luke, Cook, etal. I'm also pretty certain that I could find other great (and bad) franchises out there, if I only took the time look around.
peace
Posted by: LAKER TRUTH | August 11, 2008 at 01:06 PM
LAKER TRUTH,
"People who obsessively ignore America's imperfections are overwhelmingly pretencious, self-righteous sheep without a brain or an understanding of the value of pragmatic living."
Also true.
GO USA!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 11, 2008 at 01:34 PM
Pig,
Where did I insult anyone?
GO USA!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 11, 2008 at 01:35 PM
Jon
You called someone a self-righteous douchebag. That seems insulting to me. Also, using words like suck and lunatic are pretty inflammatory.
Posted by: "Pig" Miller | August 11, 2008 at 01:44 PM
Fair enough, I understand all points and I'd like to say that yours SOUNDS like the way it ought to be, but nothing is ever cut and dry. Growing up within a given culture may cause people to sometimes blind themselves or to create a mirage of a nationality that has been created in their own image, though it may not always be carried out in that fashion.
Obviously, this, like so many other arguments, is not one that can ever truly be won on either side.
I appreciate that people on this blog all willing to consider both sides.
Posted by: S.Tan | August 11, 2008 at 01:47 PM
So the Lakers are soft? Apparently 28 teams must be softer than they are. That's pretty good - all they have to do it pick it up a little.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | August 10, 2008 at 09:56 PM
===================================
Ex
I agree with you on this.
I am also tired of Lakers being called soft. Had the Bets called this series fairly the Lakers would have won. I see all the posts how Gasol was pushed out of the lane.
Well yes he was but once position is established which it was, you cannot root out player. Its in the rules but was not called.
So much for soft rather than opponents allowed to cheat.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | August 11, 2008 at 01:56 PM
Okay folks. With the understanding from your hosts that talk of the Olympics does indeed dovetail into talk of politics and philosophy, let's remember to be respectful of one another and engage in constructive debate rather than name calling or insults.
If you have to ask if I'm referring to you... I probably am.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | August 11, 2008 at 02:02 PM
BK, are you talking to me? haha, jk.
I think there's something to be said for letting countries arrive to change on their own. You can "make" a country a democracy (or try to like in Vietnam) but it just doesn't really take. They have to arrive on their own. Just like sometimes a kid has to learn through his own mistakes (or achievements).
Democracy may be a flawed system but it is the best that is out there. Ethnocentrism aside. But also keep in mind many of these countries believe the same of their governments. At the end of the day, it's all about coexisting. It's all about accepting; we may not understand but we must acceptable.
Posted by: Faith | August 11, 2008 at 02:38 PM
Kavulic,
Read what I wrote and try to understand it this time before going off an absurd directive.
That is unless, of course, you have been playing all along.....
Li Hsiao Loong
Posted by: Li Hsiao Loong | August 11, 2008 at 07:57 PM
Some countries aren't ready for democracy; in particular if the majority group (ethnic/religious) isn't willing to share; general education level is a big factor, too. Put democracy in a situation like that, and you end up with "one man, one vote, one time" - and a dictatorship. There are plenty of recent examples of that - particularly in the former European coloniess in Africa.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | August 12, 2008 at 07:28 AM
Pig,
No Pig. I said that people who live life like that are self-righteous boucebags, and that is absolutely true.
GO USA!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 12, 2008 at 09:51 AM
Li Hsiao Loong,
You're typing a lot, but you're not saying anything.
It's a long-winded statement disguised as a rational argument when it is not.
GO USA!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 12, 2008 at 09:55 AM
exheldovr,
"Some countries aren't ready for democracy; in particular if the majority group (ethnic/religious) isn't willing to share; general education level is a big factor, too."
While I find that to be a pretty arrogant statement, I will counter yours in that NO country is ready for a dictatorship.
GO USA!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 12, 2008 at 09:57 AM
Jon K,
I don't see why you find truth to be arrogant. As I mentioned, there are plenty of examples in the past 20-30 years of what happens when a nation who is not ready for democracy gets democracy.
And invariably the result is bad unless there is not some sort of transition period going through more or less "benevolent dictatorships" and gradually increasing the role of the individual. South Korea is a good, fairly recent, example of that.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | August 12, 2008 at 10:30 AM
Ex and Jon K.,
I think the US is a perfect example of what happens when a country attempts to become a democracy when not ready. Our history is as bloody and cruel as any.
Posted by: Andrew Z | August 12, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Kavulic,
Apparently my post is too overbearing for your thick skull.
Go back to punching people in the throat.
Li Hsiao Loong
Posted by: Li Hsiao Loong | August 12, 2008 at 07:21 PM
about the 04 laker team, Horace Grant was injured, he was the backup to Malone and Shaq....if he were there we would have had backups to the injured and the lazy. That was just a messed up season. Do you remember what Kobe looked like at the start of the season, he probably weighed 180. What I found wierd was that Payton had issues with the offense...I watched him play 4 (?) years in college, at Oregon State University, under Ralph Miller, that was one damn boring but effective cut and pass system, so I don't know what his issues were. He could have played the triangle, he just didn't want to. Mike T., that was a "damaged" team.....but they still should have won the series. Why the worshipping of Kwame, he has done nothing,m and never will. Hold your breath till he does. Please.
Posted by: humanomaly | August 13, 2008 at 01:49 AM
Okay folks. With the understanding from your hosts that talk of the Olympics does indeed dovetail into talk of politics and philosophy, let's remember to be respectful of one another and engage in constructive debate rather than name calling or insults.
If you have to ask if I'm referring to you... I probably am.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | August 11, 2008 at 02:02 PM
=========================
By that thought process, why was my post deleted? It certainly had elements of sports, politics, and philosophy but definetly was not insulting to any one.
I tempered my patriotism with hope of returning to constitutionally run government rather than a right wing facist government which intrudes and invades our rights.
I support my country and sports but do not blindly proclaim I am a patriot when I am being subjected to illegal search and seasure and my country allows torture. No that is not patriotic but for the freedoms we still (temporarily) enjoy I am very patriotic. God Bless USA.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | August 14, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Li Hsiao Loong,
You're awfully full of yourself, aren't you, Mr. Basketball Intelligensia?
All I see is someone who is intellectually insecure.
GO USA!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | August 15, 2008 at 11:08 AM