Report Card - Vlad Radmanovic
The good news about Vladimir Radmanovic's 2008? It was better than 2007. Granted, without landing in the slammer, getting injured in a freak bull-riding mishap, or just retiring at 27, last year was almost impossible not to improve upon. But still, Vlad was better, and not just compared against a season lost to a snowboarding accident and playoff inactivity. He established a career-high FG% (45%) and was within a personal top-three for 3-PT%, FT% and assists. But those marks hardly establish this year as a great one for Vlad. Not really even a good one. Much remained missing during Vlad's season, continuing a perpetual cycle of wondering what it'll take for Radmanovic to discover that extra gear and finally bust out at a level that many still feel he's capable of.
Among the coaching staff, Vlad Radmanovic is considered an enigma of sorts. By his own admission, he's never been as consistent as preferred. Phil Jackson has tried (and failed) to arrange chats with a sports psychologist, the middle ground apparently being tweaks through the media. But it's all done with the goal of discovering a pathway towards yet to be unlocked potential. Maybe a formula can be discovered. I'm neither a motivational speaker nor a fortune teller. But unlike Lamar Odom, whom I always knew could bust out when used in a different role, I think the issue with Vlad is much simpler: Dude is who he is. BK and I have a running observation that Radmanovic is the NBA's biggest "all or nothing" player. And while that take is often prompted by this shooting specialist launching one bairballed three per game almost like clockwork, in some ways, I think it sums up the essence of Vlad. When his hand is hot, he can bury an opponent and will sometimes add contributions beyond the expected. When the mitt goes cold, he typically brings little to the table. Thus, if you count on either "big" or "invisible/shaky" with no middle ground, the "Mystery of Radmanovic" is solved.
That may sound harsh, but the numbers pretty much support it. Vlad's per-48 stats place him among the least productive Lakers when it comes to rebounding, assists, shot blocking, or defending without fouling and mostly middle of the road everywhere else unless it involved shooting. Throw in his occasionally solid (most memorably against 'Melo in the first round) but mostly turnstile defense (most memorably against just about everyone else he guarded) and a penchant for odd decisions and it's no mystery why he rode the fourth quarter pine more than any starter. But having said all that, he'll occasionally come through with a huge game. As a player, Radmanovic mirrors himself off the court. He's got a quirky personality (I mean that in a good way) and things quirky are often tough to pin down. Or very easy, depending on how you view his particular situation.
In any event, I'm counting on more of the same from Vlad next season, although that could lead to one possible difference. As I predicted with Luke Walton, unless Vlad steps up his game, I picture him losing a fair amount of PT to Trevor Ariza. Throw in the amount of time Kobe (and perhaps now Odom) spends at the 3, those minutes drop even further. Obviously, bigger chunks of play will come when the Lakers need him at PF or some outside shooting. But all in all, without a sea change, I think Vlad may end up somewhere between 10-12th in the rotation. Ball's in his court, so to speak.
Final Grade: C-
AK
>>>Apples and oranges . You missed the point again. The point was and is that Kobe
>>>is injury prone and has been and con
Kobe has averaged playing in 72 games per season.
Andrew Bynum has averaged playing in 54 games per season.
Big difference.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | July 03, 2008 at 07:28 PM
Not a valid comparison.
Kobe has what 11 years in the league and AB 3. the injury was a freak injury not a defect or weak body making him injury prone. It was LO's foot that caused the freak injury. Remember in football Giants L Taylor and Redskins QB. LT tackled Theisman and broke his leg with bone sticking out? Was thus Theisman injury prone because of this freak play?
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 04, 2008 at 02:08 AM
The Lakers will never win a championship as long as:
Lamar
Luke
Vladimir
are part of the team (they are soft).
PS: Pau-in my opinion is also soft.
PPS: losing a 24 point lead in game 4 and being down by 43 and losing by 39 in game 6 was the most embarrassing moment in the history of the Lakers (and the above players played a huge roll in losing those 2 games).
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 03, 2008 at 09:20 PM
So did Kobe and especially PJ so just dump the team? Well PJ yes!
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 04, 2008 at 02:15 AM
Vaasa,
Thanks for your comments. I’m not worried about my credibility on the blog. I’m just a rabid Lakers fan who has followed the team for 40 years and has seen Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq play in college and for the Lakers and believe that Andrew has the potential to be as great a player as the great Lakers centers of the past. Does that mean that he will? Only if he works hard, is lucky with respect to injuries, and continues to grow as a player. The only person who cares whether I am right or wrong is me. You don’t need to worry. I’ve been wrong before and the world didn’t end. I just got a little smarter. Maybe some day I will finally figure it all out. More likely, I will die before I reach that point. LOL.
I also think it is unfair to say that I play God on the blog. Yes, I do state my case with a strong voice and try to back it up with solid reasoning but it is just my opinion among the many. I respect LTLF and have long exchanged cordial posts back and forth. Usually we are in agreement about most issues but in this case we aren’t but we still make our points. Bottom line, we are all just Lakers fans trying to go cold turkey without any more games. Thankfully, the KBros blog gives us the perfect forum to keep our Lakers joneses going and give us a reason not to play while we work. While we are serious fans who often have serious discussions, we’re really just fans gathered around a virtual water cooler.
I also don’t think it is a fair description to call Drew a “greenhorn” or “totally unproven” center. What is more realistic is to acknowledge that Drew is probably the third best center in the NBA right now. That is what the Lakers front office, Jerry Buss, Mitch Kupchak, and Phil Jackson think. That’s what Jerry West and Kobe Bryant think. There is no doubt that I look at the Lakers through GHF lenses, but any serious student of the NBA can see that Andrew Bynum is a far superior center at this point in his career than Chris Kaman, whom he literally destroyed when he played against him last year, blocking several of his shots and totally dominating him on the boards and offense.
What will I have to say if I am wrong? How about, I was wrong. But I know I’m not. And I know that the Lakers are going to sign Drew to an extension before October 31. That is something you won’t have to wait 10 or 15 years to find out.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 03, 2008 at 08:04 PM
OK, thanks LakerTom. I understand your point. You are a great fan. Wish I could be so optimistic about things. LOL I Hope it turns out as you wish.
Vaasa
Posted by: Vaasa | July 04, 2008 at 02:38 AM
This current Lakers team as a collective group will never win a NBA championship?
Why?
They are not mentally tough.
And until proven otherwise, Rick Fox believes the same thing.
Mental toughness is best manifested through a committment to defense.
The Magic teams played great team defense.
The Shaq/Kobe teams played great team defense.
This team does not have the mental make-up to committ to team defense.
And it is not Phil's fault.
Phil's Bulls team and his first Lakers team played defense.
So why is this team not committed to defense?
Mental make-up coupled with several players being paid too much money too soon before proving a thing.
I implore everyone to listen to Rick Fox's podcast at klac.
He gives the most powerful analaysis I've heard since the Celtics game 6 embarrassment.
Kobe can't say it.
Rick Fox said it for him.
In short, Rick Fox questions this current Lakers group mental toughness.
And he feels if that question goes un-answered, no amount of weight lifting and muscles will change a weak mind-set (remember the beautiful bodies Elden Campbell and Kwame Brown possessed?).
Lamar/Luke/Vladimir/and even Pau are mentally soft.
And unless that changes, Kobe will not get his 4th ring.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 04:48 AM
A quote from Rick Fox's podcast at klac.com:
"They (the Celtics) are physically imposing themselves on our players to the point where are players are so un-comfortable that they don't even want to compete."
If you listen to the part of his podcast before this quote and if you listen to the part of his podcast after his quote you will realize that the Lakers have a serious question that must be answered before they can even think about winning a championship.
I"m reading all the post since game 6 and I am simply amazed that less than one percent of you are questioning the Lakers mental toughness as the key to winning a ring.
Un-believeable.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 05:32 AM
It is sad that AK/BK are afraid to asked the question:
Is this team mentally soft and can that be changed in order to win a championship.
Judging by the grades given to Lamar/Luke/Vladimir, I'm guessing they do not want to be banned from the Lakers practices and locker room.
Since game 6, only one person was willing to challenge the softness of the Lakers: Rick Fox.
Mr. Fox was literally anger with how the Lakers basically quit and allowed the Celtics to run up the score.
Mr. Fox feels the key to the Lakers future is to answer the question regarding some players being soft.
Mr. Fox feels if certain players are soft, they must go for 2 reason:
They don't deserve to wear the Purple and Gold.
It is not fair to have tough players willing to do the work suffer with soft players not willing to do the work.
Mr. Fox stated everyone needs to hit the gym ASAP.
Mr. Fox podcast just proved why that pretty face and beautiful smile was deceiving.
To quote Mr. Fox: "I wasn't crazy; however, I could act crazy."
To quote Mr. Fox: "during jump balls, we could look into the eyes of certain players and we could see that they were not going to compete and that we could impose our will on them."
This current group of Lakers will never have that mind set.
By the time those type of players arrive, Andrew will be only 25; however, Kobe will be 35 with bad knees.
I feel sorry for Black Mamba being that he has to end his career with weak-minded players like Pau/LO/Luke/Vlad.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 05:43 AM
I think its going to be in everyones interests to wait and see...Its clear the lakers shouldnt be expected to offer Bynum a huge offer now...there will be an offer and Bynum will reject it knowing that he can come back and increase or solidify his value next year.No doubt the lakers decided to invest heavily in Bynum a long time ago and they wont be letting him go but you dont get a max deal based on 20 odd games as much as an agent might like to try it on nobody is going to be insulted when it doesnt happen.
Bynum is the perfect player for the lakers he plays a position hard to fill,hes young he can be a difference maker right now while suring up the future...they'll be holding onto him alright... at almost any cost bar annoying Kobe or taking the team out of immediate contention...but they dont need to be fronting up with ridiculous offers right now... even if it costs them more down the track you cant gamble that heavily and they dont need to.
Posted by: Kiwi | July 04, 2008 at 06:17 AM
Passionate Lakers Fan -
Why, pray tell, am I soft for believing in players who have helped us get to the finals?
Or would you prefer me to believe in people who don't even play for our team?
Strange, actually. I know that I'm not an idiot - I even vote when elections come around!
Posted by: Caliphilosopher | July 04, 2008 at 07:12 AM
While I respect Rick Fox, all of a sudden he is Mr Clairvoyant or Nostradamus??? To me, basically anything he says or does is neither here NOR there. I just like to know who died and nominated him "Mr Basketball".
The Lakers WILL win again. Rick needs to stick to chicks and acting!
Posted by: lakersrydeordie | July 04, 2008 at 07:32 AM
JTLF,
The point about family security is a straw argument. In terms of family security there is
no difference b/n 60 million dollars or 80 million dollars. If you're not secure with 60
million then you won't be with 80 million.
re: Phil Jackson holding him back. Given what happened to Kwame Brown, as a kid out
of high school playing with the pros, I'm going to mostly disagree with you on this. I saw
what he looked like his first year. & his second year for that matter. Putting a weak
17/18 year old kid up against Tim Duncan and company, for a full year, seems like a
recipe for disaster.
re: going to a contender. Do the Spurs, Mavs, Celtics etc. have the salary cap to give
him 10 - 20 million more than the Lakers can? My guess is no. That was the point that
I was making.
Posted by: hobbitmage | July 04, 2008 at 07:56 AM
JTLF,
The point about family security is a straw argument. In terms of family security there is
no difference b/n 60 million dollars or 80 million dollars. If you're not secure with 60
million then you won't be with 80 million.
re: Phil Jackson holding him back. Given what happened to Kwame Brown, as a kid out
of high school playing with the pros, I'm going to mostly disagree with you on this. I saw
what he looked like his first year. & his second year for that matter. Putting a weak
17/18 year old kid up against Tim Duncan and company, for a full year, seems like a
recipe for disaster.
re: going to a contender. Do the Spurs, Mavs, Celtics etc. have the salary cap to give
him 10 - 20 million more than the Lakers can? My guess is no. That was the point that
I was making.
re: his strong work ethic. The difference in his muscle definition/strength b/n years
1 & years 3 would seem to argue against your belief in his strong work ethic. It is not
that his body matured, although it certainly has and will continue to do that. It is that
he actually changed his work out. I believe he was in Texas working with a strength/
conditioning coach. Note how no one called him lazy when he showed up this past
season. It was clear that he had worked very hard. That was never clear before.
Thanks for the response. Happy 4th.
Posted by: hobbitmage | July 04, 2008 at 08:02 AM
OK -- how much was Kaman making again?
http://tinyurl.com/5oxndy
Posted by: HmrHed | July 04, 2008 at 08:08 AM
Laker Tom
I think you were so excited about the ongoing discussion that you missed my point. lol
Drewski's Agent Lee was being belligerent for no reason and that makes him a jerk and a poor agent to represent AB.
Andrew Bynum said he didn't need the Max contract publicly, which prompted Agent Lee to go public to rebut his own client.
Publicly, to the media, Lee said his client was a 20 year old immature kid, that didn't know better.
I'm in the sales and service business, and you NEVER belittle your client, especially in the way Lee did to Bynum. Saying he was immature, to a young adult, whether true or not is not wise and not very smart.
Who here at any age, would like to be called young or immature in public and embarrassed to others?
The second major mistake and blunder by Lee was then to misrepresent Bynum's true feelings publicly to the media. AB said the max was not necessary and Lee not only said AB is demanding it, but his client will walk if the Lakers won't pay it.
He's now putting his client in a bad light, that AB is demanding and not open to any agreement, or he walks.
If you are Bynum, and on the heals of your agent saying he was a immature kid, and then misrepresented your true feelings, you might have misgivings about your agent.
Who really is the immature one here? AB said 'I can work it out' or the Agent, pay him the max, PUBLICLY, or he walks, especially so early in the negotiations.
Who was the Agent arguing with and chastising? It was Bynum, not the Lakers.
Who is creating an adversarial situation so early in the talks, PUBLICLY, when not even called for, making his client look like he his obstinate, even when Bynum seems most reasonable?
This agent is acting like he is the one who is inexperienced and young. AB would do well to hire a new Agent, one that truly reps him, and not the Agents interests.
By the way, I'm glad you came around to the reasoning, AB is deserving of something less than th max. Your earlier statements indicated otherwise. And also for recognizing my point that under CBA rules, AB ' could walk' if he accepts the qualifying offer.
Although highly unlikely, he could.
I think you must have mixed me up with someone else when you argued to me that I didn't understand and was missing the point.
Posted by: Fatty | July 04, 2008 at 08:17 AM
Fatty,
"Let's see, Who can we get for 2.3 million that will put the Wizzards over the top?"
Haven't you been paying attention? Do we have to spell everything out for you? Ira Newble and DJ Mbenga!!! They are championship-caliber players, languishing on the Lakers bench, who could be had for a couple of 10-game contracts followed by the minimum salary for the remainder of the season!! Hopefully the Wizards won't steal them from the Lakers - I still don't know how they managed to slip past all the other teams last season!
Posted by: exhelodrvr | July 04, 2008 at 08:29 AM
first, is Chris Kaman going to pay taxes to Germany, now that he is a citizen? Just curious on that one...
these are words I never thought I would see:
"Devean George, whom the Mavs have placed a high priority on re-signing, is receiving considerable attention from about a half dozen teams.
A league source said keen interest from Phoenix, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland and New Orleans is making George seriously contemplate his next move."
****
Devean George is contemplating his "next move"??? are you kidding me? Folks... Armageddon is upon us...
Posted by: Kwaminus Brownicas, Dutchess of the Stone Hands, Sister of the Sublime Calves | July 04, 2008 at 09:07 AM
High-Cheese - that was a great post.
Posted by: dave m | July 04, 2008 at 09:10 AM
LakerTom,
"Drew is probably the third best center in the NBA right now."
When he's on the floor, he might be the third best right now. And had he played all season, the Lakers would likely be willing to give him a max contract right now. But health at this point is a huge, negative consideration when it comes to considering Bynum's future. He missed most of his senior year in high school. Got very little time his rookie season. Got a medium amount of playing time his second season. Third season, heavier minutes, ended up missing half the season, and taking longer than expected to heal. Has a wider than normal pelvis than is typical for someone his size, and is slightly bow-legged, which generally makes people somewhat more susceptible to knee injuries. And he is still recovering from his surgery, so no one knows for sure what his mobility will be like. That is not a track record on which to base a maximum contract.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | July 04, 2008 at 09:21 AM
>>>AB is better then Kaman
yes
>>>Kobe better than Davis
yes
>>>Lamar better than Thornton
At the moment yes, but Thornton has the potential to be a beast
>>>Gasol as good as brand.
eh, not so much.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | July 04, 2008 at 09:29 AM
***The Andrew Bynum news is the Best News a Laker Fan could asked for this summer. ****
Now I can rest till October knowing Bynum will be back.
THIS IS THE GREATEST NEWS I COULD ASK FOR.
KING KONG WILL BE BACK WITH A VENGENCE!!!!!
BD
Posted by: BD | July 04, 2008 at 09:30 AM
Tell it like it is Cheese.
Posted by: HmrHed | July 04, 2008 at 09:37 AM
How realistic is getting Magette? Would he really take the mid level? I think getting Corey would be a bigger catch than Ron Ron or Posey. Where's our FA updates???
Posted by: Fish Guy | July 04, 2008 at 09:42 AM
LakerTom,
Yeah, I agree. Good to have a discussion with someone who doesn't call you an idiot just because
you don't agree with them. And yes, I had a slow day at work yesterday and was prowling
the blog more frequently than usual.
As for incentives counting towards the cap, let's consider the incentives I mentioned:
15 point average - Andrew didn't make this last season, but it looks like he could possibly do it
10 rebound average - he made this one last season
play in 75 regular season games - he didn't make this one last season
play in 10 playoff games - he also didn't make this one
Now. There are two ways that salary cap comes into play. First, in deciding if the team
has any cap space when they're going to hire free agents (like right now) and second,
when determining whether they'll pay a luxury tax and how much they'll pay.
WRT the first situation, I don't think the Lakers will be under the salary cap for at least the
duration of Andrew's contract. Maybe if Kobe changed his mind, opted out and went to
play for the Knicks or something, but barring that, it won't matter whether the league counts
Andrew's next year salary as 8 million or 12 million. Over the cap is over the cap. If there
was a chance the Lakers were going to have 10 million in cap space some time in the near
future, then the incentives might effect that amount, but I don't think it's likely.
And as for paying luxury tax, if Bynum plays a full season and averages 15 and 10, I'm
sure Dr. Buss would gladly pay the extra 4 million in salary and 4 million in luxury tax.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | July 04, 2008 at 09:47 AM
That clip was great Fatty. I'm sold. Pay him whatever he asks for.
Seriously though, I gotta say that LakerTom is as ardent as they come with his belief in the need to max Drew out. I think the kid should get paid well, but at this point, according to the market and previous performance, he doesn't deserve the kind of contract that Chris Paul just got, or that Deron Williams is going to get. He's not an all-star yet, so he isn't going to get paid like one yet. It's as simple as that.
This argument is centering too much on what people feel and not on the facts of the matter. I agree with LTLF on this one. Those names he put up of max deal players, and top paid centers speak volumes about what The BEAST's market value is.
Let's think of it in these terms. If Bynum were a free agent this off season, would he receive a contract as big as the one that Elton Brand will likely get from the Clips? No. Maybe Baron Davis? No. Corey Maggette? Getting closer, but still not there. James Posey? Maybe there now. So the Lakers, as a shrewd business organization, would not pay an above market value premium for a product that is now damaged and unproven. A franchise in the NBA can't afford to pay any player based on potential. That's why the NFL is having so much trouble with their rookie pay scale. The NBA has done a much better job in implementing the rookie pay scale contract.
After all that, the point is as simple as this:
Andrew Bynum is not currently an all-star, nor has he performed consistently at a high level for any sustained length of time in his career. Now, those two things being facts, his current market value does not command a salary commensurate with that level of play. He will be paid according to his market value, just as everyone else is. That value, at this point, is what he is already being paid. Therefore, the Lakers have no motivation to extend his contract based on the possibility that he will reach that level of pay eventually. There won't be any max level extension this summer, unless Andrew can somehow prove that he is ready to sustain that level of play, which is likely impossible. He'll play under the current contract into the season, and when he plays at a high level and proves that he deserves it, he'll get an extension. That's just good business.
End of story.
Posted by: "Pig" Miller | July 04, 2008 at 09:52 AM
JLF,
>>>Vlade - full MLE
>>>Luke - 30 million for 6 years
>>>You may be right.
>>>
>LTLF
>Now thats just wrong to compare the beast to Luke and Rad. in the words of
>Mamba 24. Stop it man. Stop it now.
You left out "You're better than that." :-)
Actually, I wasn't trying to compare the skills of Bynum to those of Vlade or Luke.
I think every blogger here agrees that the Lakers overpaid both Vlade and Luke.
I was merely responding to someone's suggestion that I should know that the Lakers will
offer Bynum a max contract by stating that they overpaid Vlade and they overpaid Luke,
so it wouldn't surprise me if they overpay Bynum as well. It also wouldn't surprise me if
he ratcheted his game up another notch next year and became a 5 time all star and one
of the best centers in the league, in which case the max contract would be warranted.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | July 04, 2008 at 09:57 AM
LakerTom,
>>>The battle goes on. Just curious. Who from your list of 19 players with max
>>>contracts would you trade Andrew Bynum for?
Oooh. Good question. For my responses, assume that the makeup of the Laker team is
exactly the same otherwise. This is a different question from "if you were starting a team
and you could pick either Andrew Bynum or one of these 19 players, which would you
pick?"
Here are my responses:
Joe Johnson – No
Kevin Garnett – Yes
Paul Pierce – No
LeBron James – Yes
Jason Kidd – No
Dirk Nowitzki – Yes
Carmelo Anthony – Yes
Allen Iverson – No
Baron Davis – No
Tracy McGrady – No
Jermaine O'Neal – No
Elton Brand – Yes
Shawn Marion – Yes
Dwyane Wade – No
Michael Redd – No
Stephon Marbury – No
Tim Duncan – Yes
Chris Bosh – Yes
And the new max contract guys:
Chris Paul - Yes
Gilbert Arenas - No
If the Lakers didn't have Kobe or some other dominant backcourt scorer, then my answer
might be different about Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Dwyane Wade, and Michael Redd. If
the Lakers didn't have Kobe and I could trade Bynum for Kobe, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | July 04, 2008 at 10:06 AM
JLF,
>>>And he was improving each game. LO's foot was the cause of the injury so you
>>>want to hold back pay because of it.
Some players get injured more easily than others. Some players land on other guys' feet, limp
for a minute, shake it off and keep playing. Other people are prone to knee or ankle injuries.
Luke Walton started off the 1006-07 season leading the league in 3-point shooting and playing
well all-around. Then he tweaked his ankle and started playing poorly and missed a lot of
games. If Luke had finished up 2006-07 healthy and averaging 50% on 3-pointers as he
was shooting at the start of the season, he probably would have gotten a larger offer than
he did. Since then, he has injured his ankles several more times and either missed games
or played poorly because of it. The Lakers were right not to base their offer to Luke ONLY
on the part of the season where he was playing his best.
Some players can play through injuries better than others. Kobe Bryant has had lots of
little and big injuries in his career but he rarely misses games because of them.
The value of an NBA player comes from him being on the floor and contributing for your team.
Players that have missed significant numbers of games have a lower value than players that
play every game. Shaq shows the exception to the rule. Shaq misses a lot of games every
season, but in his prime he absolutely DOMINATED when he was on the floor. And he always
managed to be healthy for the playoffs. Thus, his value was not reduced by missing a lot of
games.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | July 04, 2008 at 10:18 AM
JLF,
>>>You think AB is near his ceiling where I think he has not even scratched his true
>>>potential. so I think he has a bigger upside and worth more and you think he is at his best.
Almost. I think there is a possibility that AB MIGHT be near his ceiling. He could be like Jermaine
O'Neal and break out in his fifth year and become a beast.
But after 3 years in the league, people still thought Lamar Odom had not yet reached his potential
and that one day he would be a perennial all-star. But nobody paid him a max contract based
on that.
And (here's the line where I'm going to get attacked from all sides) after 4 years in the league,
the Lakers thought that Kwame Brown had not reached his full potential and spent a lot of
money on him (though again, not a max contract).
In Lamar's case, he was offered a contract that only overestimated his potential a little bit,
so he's only overpaid a little bit. In Kwame's case, the Lakers had WAY too rosy a view
of what Kwame could become, so he was grossly overpaid.
I think it's good that you're optimistic about Bynum's future. I am as well. I think at the very
LEAST he'll turn out to be as productive as someone like Sam Perkins, and at best he could
turn into the best center in the league. But I think the most likely scenario is somewhere
in between. And in this league, teams do pay somewhat for potential to become better, but
they mostly pay for the level you have achieved so far.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | July 04, 2008 at 10:28 AM
Justalakerfan
Aren't you loving this discussion? Just like old times. lol
My point was simply to answer your insurance can cover an injury. Only complete break downs would be covered.
A lengthy max contract can seriously hurt a team if a player can't conform to expectations.
Example: Weber, Francis, and very close to home Grant, who we paid 46 mil for nothing because of his bad knees.
Offering a max contract to a player is one serious thing and not to be taken lightly, as you know. Each team has room for 1-2, and maybe 3 max contracts. With Kobe and P:au making bookoo bucks and then adding AB's max to the mix, will be carefully considered. It will be hard to undue the damage if it don't work. (like you don't know this already) lol
Peace
Posted by: Fatty | July 04, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Thirty2
Thanks for the reply. Can't wait till our sissy players play the rugged Aussie's. lol
After hearing your teams description, it does make me think of one shortcoming of Team USA. Frontline weakness.
Center: Howard, is very good, but Bosh and Boozer won't intimidate anyone. I heard coach K say he's not worried for our lack of size, because the Euro game is so varried and we need to be adaptable. But a quality team, that knows how to punch it inside could cause the USA lots of problems.
(example: see Greece)
I'll be looking for the schedule to see when the warm up game is. Hopefully it will be broadcast somewhere.
I heard Team USA drinks gatorade during time outs, while Team Australia drinks Fosters like real men. lol
Posted by: Fatty | July 04, 2008 at 10:51 AM
While I respect Rick Fox, all of a sudden he is Mr Clairvoyant or Nostradamus??? To me, basically anything he says or does is neither here NOR there. I just like to know who died and nominated him "Mr Basketball".
The Lakers WILL win again. Rick needs to stick to chicks and acting!
Posted by: lakersrydeordie | July 04, 2008 at 07:32 AM
It is idiots like you that the nation (especially in Boston) consider us stupid fans.
Listen to his podcast, idiot.
Listen to his passion and anger in regardis to the Lakers taking a beating without showing any pride in wearing the Purple and Gold.
With each passing day, this blog is becoming a joke.
The mental migets on the Lakers (Pau/Lamar/Luke/Vlad) will not change.
Lifting weights to strengthen the body does not strengthen the mind.
Man, I can not wait, to read the blogs come February when all the mental migets on this blog begin to realize the truth about the soft 4 (Pau/Lamar/Luke/Vlad).
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 10:52 AM
No sir you are the idiot and moron. You think you have some pious opinion so much valuable than anyone else. Well you don't so the sooner you get back on your meds the better. Take your passin to the crib and go night night.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 03, 2008 at 05:17 PM
No Ms., you are the idiot and moron.
Lamar/Luke/Vladimir are mentally soft.
No rings next year.
Then you finally want the above players gone.
Idiot.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 10:58 AM
While I respect Rick Fox, all of a sudden he is Mr Clairvoyant or Nostradamus??? To me, basically anything he says or does is neither here NOR there. I just like to know who died and nominated him "Mr Basketball".
The Lakers WILL win again. Rick needs to stick to chicks and acting!
Posted by: lakersrydeordie | July 04, 2008 at 07:32 AM
Also, your above post shows me that you no nothing about the history of the Lakers when Rick played for the team (if you did know your Lakers history, you will know that Rick sign for less money to become a Laker, waited patiently for his big contract, and was our pretty boy version of James Posey).
And if you listen (which I doubt you did) to Rick's podcast, you will hear nothing but love for the Lakers (both players and organization), yet anger (based on his passion for all that is Lakers) for their lack of fight (in fact his main question during the podcast: does this team have mental fight?).
Nothing but a bunch of candy a$$es on this blog.
The majority of you no nothing about what constitues a winning team (we must re-sign Andrew this, we must re-sign Andrew that, we should or should not go after Posey)
Focus on the real issues (per Rick Fox, he of 3 rings).
IS THIS TEAM MENTALLY STRONG?!!!!
Idiot.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Passionate Lakers Fan -
Why, pray tell, am I soft for believing in players who have helped us get to the finals?
Or would you prefer me to believe in people who don't even play for our team?
Strange, actually. I know that I'm not an idiot - I even vote when elections come around!
Posted by: Caliphilosopher | July 04, 2008 at 07:12 AM
Yes, you are soft if you are simply satisfied with making it to the finals (you are like Lamar/Luke/Vlad/Pau).
I want to win the finals (I'm like Kobe).
Yes, you should believe in players that do not play for us (like Ron Artest/Cory Maggette/).
Personally, I don't vote (in my opinion, politicians are corrupted and only care about those who paid the millions it took for them to get in office).
Magic has a legacy as a result of being strong-minded.
Shaq/Kobe has a legacy (in spite of in-fighting) as a result of being strong minded just enough (without Shaq and Kobe's egos and a committment from Shaq on being fit, that team could have won 6 rings).
This current team will not win a ring until the 4 mental miget's contracts expire (Pau/Lamar/Luke/Vladimir).
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Exhelodrv
Damn! I must have been so caught up with all the discussions here that I missed the obvious answer to my own question. Who can you get for 2.3 million that will bring you a Title? Of course, DJ, Coby Karl. How stupid of me!
I haven't been this embarrassed since after driving up and down a street for 20 minutes looking for Waterman Ave. then pulling into a service station for help, and finding out that all that time I was on Waterman Ave.
Fatty: "Where in the heck is Waterman Ave.?"
Dumb service station kid, "Why, you're on it sir."
Fatty, "Oh?"
Posted by: Fatty | July 04, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Happy 4th of July from SoCal everybody.
I listened to some of those Rick Fox interviews live and they were absolutely brilliant. But I don't think that the Lakers are that far off in the mental toughness department. He's right that they need more toughness. They have Kobe, Fish, Farmar (the only one who was scrapping with PJ Brown in the finals) at their core. I think Bynum has shown flashes of mental toughness, and I think Pau is mentally tougher than he is physically. If the Lakers can bring in Posey and one good tough-minded banger, they would be fine. Maybe sign Posey to the mid-level, and trade Lamar Odom for a good tough enforcer-type power forward.
Posted by: Mob Wagoneer | July 04, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Holy Toledo, the Lakers made the Finals- and Mike T is back on the Blog -awesome year, good to have you back Mike. LakerTom and Ex you guys are incredible, keep the Faith! Jon K and LTLF this place is always entertaining with the banter -just great fun reading here again.
The Lakers totally overachieved and don't need a lot of tweaking but the free-agents avaiable could be huge in helping our Defense.
Phil Jackson - you were outcoached again and made no significant difference in how the Finals were to unfold. Horrible performance and no strategy changes in any game at anytime that showed your teams versatality or adaptability to improvise and change the mood of the game. Michael Jordan again goes down as the best coach to ever lead a team while playing the game. You lucky Dog -PJ.
Kobe if you are ever to be like Mike - You have to have a Raptor (81)performance when it counts...We love ya, but clutch in the biggest platform is what it is, you have to deliver, like Mike to win. Fix that finger. Go to Steve Nash's seminar on ball handling. Keep getting better, you were undoubtably the MVP and that award needed to come out after the finals -because Paul Pierce and KG obviously outshined you when it counted.
Vlad Rad - Jeez...grow up and reach your friggin potential or go home, that guy starting in the NBA Finals -pathetic. No heart, hits a 3 and gives you hope but his horrible team D and slow feet got him eaten alive every game. Any takers? Please!!! Are we wasting ink on VRAD. Please.
Andrew Bynum- still a project...a lot of potential, a knee problem that was far more serious than expected and his ability to heal has been a problem since day 1. Has he stopped growing, he is still often confused, slow footed and does not show well against opposing centers with any resume at all. His numbers were good but he never took over anything at anytime of his short benchwarmer NBA career.
His agent is brilliant, and will probably screw the Lakers hopes of getting those 'Posey' type players in our future. Posey signing is the next best thing to Pau coming here, actually better because he delivers under pressure. The Buss family and Mitch again must think in the choose defense area and Andrew gives us a dominance in the paint - PERIOD. Will he get mean and dominate? The biggest factor is will he be healthy, is he going to continue to improve? Wilt, Kareem, and Duncan were great already distinguished in their first seasons of NBA play. No comparison. Andrew is just cutting his teeth and scared by physical play ala Pau and LO ...someone has to get tough and dirty down there.
We should do anything to get Elton Brand and get rid of Vlad Rad, Luke, LO and even Ariza. The truth is Brand delivers and is the best rebounder in the league almost every year. His injury was fine at the end of the year and he didn't have to play but he did, that is a player that wants to play- why didn't AB have that surgeon, therapist? Ariza might have more upside than all of those players with his ability to improve on defense.
Andrew get a trainer from BALCO and become the Monster LakerTom thinks you are, I mean Tom- brother I love your optimism but is it a pink cloud or really just unyielding devotion the Purple and Gold that makes you so blind to reality. AB is no where near what Wilt, Shaq, or Kareem were...we can hope for him to evolve and the league is weak at big men down low but c'mon...3 years and he needs to learn the game still? He improved so much last off-season that I had the same exuberance that most of us had but the truth is he only had big games and played big in moments throughout games. No Taking it Over attitude, no killer instinct and other than his agent I don't think anyone on the Lakers thinks he deserves big time 'potential' money yet. He might get it but let us pray for our future and the holes in our finances if we sell out to a big time $$$ contract for a potential and often injured slow to recover big man. Andrew, Do the right thing and get a good old 20-30 Mil contract for 3 years and be grateful. You are a force and can make a good thing great here but take a lesson from Tim Duncan, and help your team. How much money do you need anyway?
It was a good year and we should be happy to have been so close, actually the Lakers could have done it. Confidence and another year of growth. Lets go LAKERS! Time to take a few from Boston...a tough season next year and a lot of teams looking like they should be just as close to getting to the finals - we must improve.
Posted by: Peter Maguire | July 04, 2008 at 11:37 AM
passionate Lakers fan,
Lay off JustaLakerFan.
Dude, you're just another moron who thinks that the key to a successful team is having 10 all-starts on it. It doesn't work that way.
You're also the type of tiresome person who is only "passionate" about complaining.
If we had a healthy Andrew Bynum on this year's team, we would have been NBA Champions.
We have the opportunity to tweak this team, get a healthy Bynum back and with an additional year together, this team will be a monster next year.
You are too much of a moron to see that and would instead rather throw a third of the team under the bus in a childish, playground tantrum.
You are a tool.
Next year we are winning the Championship WITH Luke, Lamar, and Rad Vlad on the roster.
And you will still complain.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | July 03, 2008 at 03:08 PM
Jon K
Thanks for having my back. I really don't need the protection as I can defend myself but I appreciate the support. Thanks again!
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 03, 2008 at 06:54 PM
Jon K/JLF:
Both of you do not know a thing about winning a championship.
The Lakers will win a championship with:
Lamar/Luke/Vladimir?
Man, what idiots.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 11:39 AM
I meant...just like the argument he uses..."the market today"
Gas today is more expensive right?
Well in today's market...ask any GM, they'll tell you Kobe is worth a lot. A whole lot. The max lot. That's why he didn't get traded, coz he was worth "too much." The same cannot be said for Andrew Bynum.
Just say no to max.
lol Xodus.
Posted by: Faith | July 04, 2008 at 12:11 PM
"For now, this time and place, I'd rather have Dwight Howard and his maxed out contract that offer a max contract to Drew. Maybe next year.
Posted by: p ang | July 03, 2008 at 07:47 PM"
YES!
Let's see, I think DH has made the all-star games. AND is invited to play with team usa lol.
Posted by: Faith | July 04, 2008 at 12:13 PM
JTLF,
The point about family security is a straw argument. In terms of family security there is
no difference b/n 60 million dollars or 80 million dollars. If you're not secure with 60
million then you won't be with 80 million.
[Sorry but there is a big difference between 60 and 80 million. If you don't think so give me 20 million and see if I'll take it. There are many variables which I admit I don't know about but for instance the size of his family, health etc could be things to consider. I would not turn my nose up at 20 million if it was my first big payday and pssibly my last if accidently injured like Joe Theisman was.]
re: Phil Jackson holding him back. Given what happened to Kwame Brown, as a kid out
of high school playing with the pros, I'm going to mostly disagree with you on this. I saw
what he looked like his first year. & his second year for that matter. Putting a weak
17/18 year old kid up against Tim Duncan and company, for a full year, seems like a
recipe for disaster.
[ who said for a full year? He hardly got play time his first year undr PJ except in garbage time and little time even when Roberto Duran ll (hands of stone Kwame} was dropping passes and missing layups. Kwame sucked and played like Luke does now]
re: going to a contender. Do the Spurs, Mavs, Celtics etc. have the salary cap to give
him 10 - 20 million more than the Lakers can? My guess is no. That was the point that
I was making.
[ The LAkers did not have cap space to sign Shaq but dumped players and salaries to make cap space. The Spurs or other condenders can dump salaries too and create cap space. May not be as easy now but I think doable. Look at the Kwame trade, would anyone have predicted it was possible or cap spce enough to pay Gasol? When things present a challenge creativity can come into play. That is the point I was making and I respect your POV. Thanks]
Posted by: hobbitmage | July 04, 2008 at 07:56 AM
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 12:07 AM
No sir you are the idiot and moron. You think you have some pious opinion so much valuable than anyone else. Well you don't so the sooner you get back on your meds the better. Take your passin to the crib and go night night.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 03, 2008 at 05:17 PM
No Ms., you are the idiot and moron.
Lamar/Luke/Vladimir are mentally soft.
No rings next year.
Then you finally want the above players gone.
Idiot.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 10:58 AM
PMS Lakerfan
Please calm down and don't be such an idiotic moron.
Please take some Midol and change your tampon, you will feel so much better after. Imbecile!
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 12:15 AM
JLF,
>>>Vlade - full MLE
>>>Luke - 30 million for 6 years
>>>You may be right.
>>>
>LTLF
>Now thats just wrong to compare the beast to Luke and Rad. in the words of
>Mamba 24. Stop it man. Stop it now.
You left out "You're better than that." :-)
Actually, I wasn't trying to compare the skills of Bynum to those of Vlade or Luke.
I think every blogger here agrees that the Lakers overpaid both Vlade and Luke.
I was merely responding to someone's suggestion that I should know that the Lakers will
offer Bynum a max contract by stating that they overpaid Vlade and they overpaid Luke,
so it wouldn't surprise me if they overpay Bynum as well. It also wouldn't surprise me if
he ratcheted his game up another notch next year and became a 5 time all star and one
of the best centers in the league, in which case the max contract would be warranted.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | July 04, 2008 at 09:57 AM
LTLF
Yes I did just having fun with Mambas line LOL.
Yes both Vlade and Luke got overpaid but I think IMO that AB is in a better class than those two and many others.
I really do think AB will pick up his game ea year as I think he is that type of player.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 12:20 AM
Justalakerfan
Aren't you loving this discussion? Just like old times. lol
My point was simply to answer your insurance can cover an injury. Only complete break downs would be covered.
A lengthy max contract can seriously hurt a team if a player can't conform to expectations.
Example: Weber, Francis, and very close to home Grant, who we paid 46 mil for nothing because of his bad knees.
Offering a max contract to a player is one serious thing and not to be taken lightly, as you know. Each team has room for 1-2, and maybe 3 max contracts. With Kobe and P:au making bookoo bucks and then adding AB's max to the mix, will be carefully considered. It will be hard to undue the damage if it don't work. (like you don't know this already) lol
Peace
Posted by: Fatty | July 04, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Fatty
Yes as a matter of fact I am. I repect your POV and in this case I may not agree but I enjoying what your POV is and why you arrive at it. It is very insightful and represents a lively exchange without degrading each other. In the end agrre or not the respect is there for having your opinions and convictions.
Now to respond. YUes Francis and Grant turned out to be bad case of if we would only have known. But the problem is there is no crystal ball and at some point you have to make or walk away from a deal. If you make a deal you have to negotiate so that both parties walk away happy and respected.
So the best you can do is research all the things of concern and make an educated decision on making or walking away from deal. I think in my heart it is best to negotiate a contract that both sides will be happy with.
Just my opinion.
But as you say you already know that too. LOL
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 12:32 AM
While I respect Rick Fox, all of a sudden he is Mr Clairvoyant or Nostradamus??? To me, basically anything he says or does is neither here NOR there. I just like to know who died and nominated him "Mr Basketball".
The Lakers WILL win again. Rick needs to stick to chicks and acting!
Posted by: lakersrydeordie | July 04, 2008 at 07:32 AM
Also, your above post shows me that you no nothing about the history of the Lakers when Rick played for the team (if you did know your Lakers history, you will know that Rick sign for less money to become a Laker, waited patiently for his big contract, and was our pretty boy version of James Posey).
And if you listen (which I doubt you did) to Rick's podcast, you will hear nothing but love for the Lakers (both players and organization), yet anger (based on his passion for all that is Lakers) for their lack of fight (in fact his main question during the podcast: does this team have mental fight?).
Nothing but a bunch of candy a$$es on this blog.
The majority of you no nothing about what constitues a winning team (we must re-sign Andrew this, we must re-sign Andrew that, we should or should not go after Posey)
Focus on the real issues (per Rick Fox, he of 3 rings).
IS THIS TEAM MENTALLY STRONG?!!!!
Idiot.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 11:06 AM
PMS LAkers fan
I liked Rick Fox and respect what he has done for the Lakers in the past. But I don't completely agree the team is soft. I have stated why so won't repeat this here. But I will remind you that Rick Fox got his arsed kicked than none other than Doug Chrisie. Go back and look at replay and see who got worse end of fight. Talk about soft.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 12:38 AM
That clip was great Fatty. I'm sold. Pay him whatever he asks for.
Seriously though, I gotta say that LakerTom is as ardent as they come with his belief in the need to max Drew out. I think the kid should get paid well, but at this point, according to the market and previous performance, he doesn't deserve the kind of contract that Chris Paul just got, or that Deron Williams is going to get. He's not an all-star yet, so he isn't going to get paid like one yet. It's as simple as that.
This argument is centering too much on what people feel and not on the facts of the matter. I agree with LTLF on this one. Those names he put up of max deal players, and top paid centers speak volumes about what The BEAST's market value is.
Let's think of it in these terms. If Bynum were a free agent this off season, would he receive a contract as big as the one that Elton Brand will likely get from the Clips? No. Maybe Baron Davis? No. Corey Maggette? Getting closer, but still not there. James Posey? Maybe there now. So the Lakers, as a shrewd business organization, would not pay an above market value premium for a product that is now damaged and unproven. A franchise in the NBA can't afford to pay any player based on potential. That's why the NFL is having so much trouble with their rookie pay scale. The NBA has done a much better job in implementing the rookie pay scale contract.
After all that, the point is as simple as this:
Andrew Bynum is not currently an all-star, nor has he performed consistently at a high level for any sustained length of time in his career. Now, those two things being facts, his current market value does not command a salary commensurate with that level of play. He will be paid according to his market value, just as everyone else is. That value, at this point, is what he is already being paid. Therefore, the Lakers have no motivation to extend his contract based on the possibility that he will reach that level of pay eventually. There won't be any max level extension this summer, unless Andrew can somehow prove that he is ready to sustain that level of play, which is likely impossible. He'll play under the current contract into the season, and when he plays at a high level and proves that he deserves it, he'll get an extension. That's just good business.
End of story.
Posted by: "Pig" Miller | July 04, 2008 at 09:52 AM
-------------------------------
Pig
I realize that these are your opinions but then my opinion is he is better than the guys you mentioned. Would you trade AB for EB? I wouldn't. CP or DW , Nope.
So you have your opinion and I have mine.
I have stated many times AB deserves a long term contract and the value is more than the figures bantered about. Some are caught up in the word max but in all it is truly the value of the contract we are debating and how good he is and deserves.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Passionate Lakers Fan -
Why, pray tell, am I soft for believing in players who have helped us get to the finals?
Or would you prefer me to believe in people who don't even play for our team?
Strange, actually. I know that I'm not an idiot - I even vote when elections come around!
Posted by: Caliphilosopher | July 04, 2008 at 07:12 AM
Yes, you are soft if you are simply satisfied with making it to the finals (you are like Lamar/Luke/Vlad/Pau).
I want to win the finals (I'm like Kobe).
Yes, you should believe in players that do not play for us (like Ron Artest/Cory Maggette/).
Personally, I don't vote (in my opinion, politicians are corrupted and only care about those who paid the millions it took for them to get in office).
Magic has a legacy as a result of being strong-minded.
Shaq/Kobe has a legacy (in spite of in-fighting) as a result of being strong minded just enough (without Shaq and Kobe's egos and a committment from Shaq on being fit, that team could have won 6 rings).
This current team will not win a ring until the 4 mental miget's contracts expire (Pau/Lamar/Luke/Vladimir).
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 11:14 AM
It all makes sense now. PMS laker fan is a republican idiot who does NOT vote. Yet he complains about politics. Don't complain if you don't vote and don't blog if you don't know what you are talking about. Take your meds and change the tampon.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 01:00 AM
Jon K/JLF:
Both of you do not know a thing about winning a championship.
The Lakers will win a championship with:
Lamar/Luke/Vladimir?
Man, what idiots.
Posted by: passionate Lakers fan | July 04, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Yes you busted me. I don't know a thing except I knew more about BB than you ever will and knew it even before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye. You who don't vote shows me all I need to know about your knowledge. Now go back and suck on your mothers teat to get the love you missed......no your mothers teat not your daddies @#@$.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 01:06 AM
I meant...just like the argument he uses..."the market today"
Gas today is more expensive right?
Well in today's market...ask any GM, they'll tell you Kobe is worth a lot. A whole lot. The max lot. That's why he didn't get traded, coz he was worth "too much." The same cannot be said for Andrew Bynum.
Just say no to max.
lol Xodus.
Posted by: Faith | July 04, 2008 at 12:11 PM
Really? So valuable that the Bulls would not throw Deng in to make a trade to get him? Too valuable? HMMMM.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 01:09 AM
"For now, this time and place, I'd rather have Dwight Howard and his maxed out contract that offer a max contract to Drew. Maybe next year.
Posted by: p ang | July 03, 2008 at 07:47 PM"
YES!
Let's see, I think DH has made the all-star games. AND is invited to play with team usa lol.
Posted by: Faith | July 04, 2008 at 12:13 PM
And yes it was AB who outplayed him too.
Posted by: JustaLakerFan | July 05, 2008 at 01:11 AM
Bottom line - the Lakers Org. blew it when they overvalued him and signed him and then again when they failed to void his contract and re-sign him for a smaller salary with a representation that if he performs they will renegotiate the contract.
His contempt for defense against the Celtics was shameless! A high school player should be benched for the level of defense Radmanovic displayed.
AK is right, expect little and just wait until the last year of his contract and then unload him.
Posted by: James Lee | July 05, 2008 at 02:21 PM