You mean the Lakers won? I watched the espn post game show and figured I must have missed something since Jon Berry was talking about how the Celts dominated and all. Its funny how you can have 5 games all go down to the last couple of minutes and the Celtics are dominating? This is exactly why I think we can pull this off. Close game, last 2 minutes, we have Kobe, they don't.

MH

A few seats next to me last night were two guys in Celtics jackets. They clapped when the Celtics scored and booed when the Lakers did well. They were polite when getting in and out of their seats. They were friendly. People left them alone and even checked to make sure they were okay when one of them slipped on some spilt beer. They were just two dudes cheering for their team and enjoying a game. They were cool.

A few seats below me were a couple of other Celtics fans. All game long they talked trash. Whenever Paul Pierce scored, they would stand up, flex their muscles for all to see and taunt the Lakers fans around them. The crowd around them was classy enough to not let things escalate but still heckled them good, especially when they walked out in the waning minutes of the game. Had one of them slipped on some spilt beer on his way out, I think we would have all applauded.

There is no place for violence at a game, but some people just invite it by their behavior. In an ideal world, we would lock those few Celitcs fans who are stupid enough to pick a fight into an arena with those few Lakers fans who are classless enough to indulge them and let both sides get what they deserve. (We could even sell pay-per-view tickets for charity.) The rest of us could then watch the game in peace.

It reminds me of the song I listened to on the way home after watching Game 4, To Live and Die in L.A.

Cause every n!$$@ in L.A. got a little bit of THUG in him
We may fight with each other, but I promise you this,
We'll burn this b!+&* down, get us pissed to Live and Die in L.A.

We're definitely not like Philly where they BOO Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but we're not all movie stars and we're not all gangsters either. If you're come here looking for trouble, you won't have to wait long to find it!! Apparently that guy wasn't even a Celtics fan, but just a knucklehead who likes to cause trouble. Well he shook the tree and the jaguar fell out!!!

Aside from the win on Sunday, we saw who deserves to be called a "Die Hard Lakers Fan" and it has nothing to do with how long you've been watching the Lakers!!! Let's TAKE Game 6 tomorrow and worry about parades later!!! Peace.

Jon-

Seriously? You need me to explain this? It's pretty simple- there's really no reason I can think of to engage in some sort of group brawl, throw chairs, and pummel people over a sporting event. It isn't life and death, there is no "honor" in defending your team by beating the crap out of another person. This is simply a question of people getting liquered up and looking to cause trouble, whether they be Celtics fans or Lakers fans. A Celtic fan should be able to watch a Finals game in a group of Lakers fans without fear of injury, just as a Lakers fan should be able to go into a Boston bar and watch a game. Is there going to be some good natured trash talk? There should be. Should there be thrown chairs and wild brawls? No.

The list of things that should make people resort to physical violence against each other is fairly limited, and NBA basketball games aren't on it.

BK

Phil said that this team is " young enough and dumb enough to do this" I suppose the young statement reffered to the team and the dumb to his dumb coaching!
Thanks for your honesty Phil!

Anyone know why Turiaf hardly played the other night? Outside of Bynum, he's the Lakers best shot blocker.

Since the Lakers can't seem to shoot well in Boston - I'd like to see them go right after Boston's bigs and play from the post. Gasol has had some poor moments, but he seems to get better at playing ugly every game. He helped get Garnet in foul trouble and played a very solid game in the trenches in game 5. With Perkins hurting or PJ Brown in his place, Turiaf could cause some havoc. Then Odom as a 3 can take Pierce to the post and beat him up a bit.

I know there is some talk about Rad being a wild card with his shot. I'm not too comfortable counting on him in any way. I'd like to see the Lakers bench him and pick their spots when they can test if he is on or not. If he's not hitting, he is a liability.

A slight change in strategy might throw the Celts off - plus the best way to deal with a bully is to go right back at em.

BK - I think it's pretty safe to say that even with the extreme opinions expressed here, most of us believe in civility when we're out in the real world.

One last image before I punch out my card ...

http://www.nba.com/media/finals2008/game5_490_20080615.jpg

16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...

What ever happened to the concept of "personal responsibility?" Sure, nobody in their right mind wakes up in the morning and says "today, I want to be assaulted." And VERY RARELY does a person deserve to be beaten down by a crowd of strangers. But words like 'deserve' and 'should' and 'shouldn't' are normative - that is, those words come from ethics textbooks and have very little practical meaning. All rational humans have one thing in common - we all live in the REAL WORLD, and one of the first, best lessons that anyone could possibly learn is that not everyone in the real world is rational.

SHOULD the moron be held responsible for his own beating? Absolutely not. Nobody should be treated that way.

But...IS the guy an idiot, for venturing into hostile territory and flying the enemy colors? And during a game that was NOT fairly contested, at that (38-10!!!!!!!)?

ABSOLUTELY! The beating was a tragedy, but the person with the single best of avoiding it was the moron in the green jersey.

Faith,

>>> I have faith.

I do, too. We have yet to see the Lakers at their best in this series. As far as I'm concerned, they've been in a five game slump. After a four game slumber, Odom and Gasol were awakening giants in Game 5. Farmar suddenly came to life. Sasha's only had one good game in the last five. Kobe has yet to bring out Black Mamba in this series. The Lakers are due to play at the level to which we've become accustomed. Games 6 & 7 are there for the taking.

Is a beautiful young woman in a skimpy outfit "asking for it?" No. To believe otherwise is criminal.

BUT...

Is a beautiful young woman stripping naked in front of a crowd of drunken, recovering sex-addicts in a sound-proofed Vegas motel room asking for it?

The answer is still no.

BUT IS SHE A WORLD-CLASS IDIOT? AND DON'T WORLD-CLASS IDIOTS USUALLY FIND A WAY INTO TROUBLE?

Absolutely. No question about it. Intelligent people make intelligent choices. Idiots make apologies after-the-fact.

"Stupid is as stupid does, that's what my Momma always says..."

Philly Boy -

Do you mean tough like the Phillies were against Toronto in the world series way back when? When your supposed "ace" Schilling had to wear a towel over his face because he couldn't stand to watch the 9th inning of the game that Joe Carter hit that series ending home run?

Or maybe tough as they were last year to get hammered by Colorado? You're absolutely right that they were tough - tough to watch.

Perhaps you refer to the the way the 76ers played this year. Or maybe the year that they last made it to the finals - where they were promptly destroyed on their court for the title.

Perhaps you can spend a little less time being 'tough' (i.e. hard on the senses) and a little bit more time educating yourself. Besides, last time I checked, your girl didn't mind that a couple of dudes out here had their chests shaved...

Let's Go Lake Show!

Awesome! I've seen tough like that before, and trust me, it's not all that it's cracked up to be.

Karyanr -

'Deserve', 'Should', and 'Shouldn't' have very little practical meaning? As a philosopher, I beg to differ. Have you checked out any Law schools, business schools, Medical schools, or schools of economics (to name a few)?

I wouldn't call that person an idiot - there is NO deterministic law that states when a person should expect a beating when going to watch a game in an arena. As a matter of fact, the REAL person(s) that were in the best position to avoid the beating were the people RESPONSIBLE for hitting the rival fan. It's not like the rival fan physically hit HIMSELF.

Let me know if you wanna get down with that whole applied ethics/normative ethics/meta-ethics stuff. It's right up my alley. :-)

How do you get rid of the rotten taste of giving up the biggest lead in NBA finals "GAME" history?

By making the best and biggest comeback in NBA finals "SERIES" history?

I sure hope PJ is using this as a motivation for this young team. It just might work.

GO LAKERS -- in 7

2 to 15

Can you BELIEVE?

Do you have FAITH?

I do.

Anybody on this blog who condones what's in those videos is a classless fool.

For those of you who think it's okay to gang up on someone, I hope you or someone you know is in that situation in the futre and gets beat on.

The type of people in those videos is what makes sporting events crappy just like people on this blog who say "Celtic fans (or Laker fans) shouldn't go to these games or risk getting their a$$ kicked". What an asinine statement.

Kind of reminds me of the stupid little league dads who drink too much and try to punch each other out, but they can't cuz their pot bellies get in the way.

--Peace in the Middle East LA
--Concerned Fan

we need "i have faith" t-shirts lol.

Rick F,

I think with a good defensive team like the Celtics (and the refs lol), you can't really have a full game, or rather a all around dominant game. What you hope for is one, or two things to click well enough to propel you to winning.

Game 3 it was Kobe and Sasha. Game 5, it was a combination of early Kobe, and late Pau/LO.

I think what we should shoot for in game 5, is to capitalize on our opportunities (whomever that is lol), and come out with an aggressive Kobe. Good things always happen then.

Go Lakers!

Caliphilosopher,

Naturally, there is no need to explain the difference between terms like 'shall' and the normative 'should.' HAD I mentioned 'shall,' then I would have been introducing a natural determinant, or 'law,' as the independent variable in the equation: An idiotic Celtics fan SHALL be beaten by equally idiotic Lakers fans.

That's not what I said. First of all, any application of the normative terms I presented for the purpose of example could be subject to dissent, and therefor, are open for debate. True, these concepts are copiously represented in Law texts, and Business, and especially Economics! (The Science of What People SHOULD Be Doing!) But in no way does this relate to the circumstances regarding the judjment (or lack thereof) made by the dude in the green jersey. To attack the argument by assailing its terms is a fine tact in a courtroom or other debating forum where points are scored for technicalities, but, as I'm sure you know, is also fundamentally fallacious (alliteration be damned!)

Okay, I never intended my little post to fit into anyone else's Venn Diagram. Perhaps I could have said what I really meant in much simpler terms: A person who knowingly puts himself in danger should share responsibility for the outcome, even if the outcome involves a criminal act by another person.

This moves the discussion away from philosophy, and lands it squarely in psychology, because the debate should be the strength of the term "knowingly." I will argue that it is very strong in this case.

Respectfully,
karyanr

amazing happens,

"Where did you see/hear this?"

Today was the second time I'd heard that. It was on the NBC broadcast of the US Open playoff. Tiger's always said he bleeds purple and gold. I know some Nike guys that mentioned him talking to Mike about it last year.

Greats know great when they see it.

I was watching the game at a friends house with a live troll yesterday. He cheered for Boston while I cheered for my beloved Lakers. A good deal of trash talking from the both of us but all in good fun. No need for violence just to human beings who happen to root for different teams.

Caliphilosopher,

To be a man is to know conflict, embrace it, and to overcome it.

Such is the nature of our existence.

Avoiding that is cowardice. And regret.

GO LAKERS!

Karyanr,

That was well put. I suppose he should share some of the blame for putting himself in that situation....but if that is the case, then apparently everyone should share part of the blame if they get injured no matter what the situation, since by default every activity is dangerous (do some degree). I might be sympathetic to that; I do know a number of people who would argue against a person being partially responsible for being struck by lightning or for tripping on uneven pavement.

I, being a philosopher, would try to keep the debate of the term "knowingly" couched in a discussion of intentionality and practical rationality. Maybe you're a Bayesian, and "knowingly" implies something that involves past probabilities - I find that it's even harder to be a Bayesian when the things that you're dealing with are social phenomena (I have my own reasons for leaning away from Bayesianism, but that's a totally separate discussion).

Perhaps you favor a form of stringent inductive logic when it comes to practical rationality. If so, you have salient points to make; For reasons that are probably (no pun intended) longer than people other than you and I care to discuss, I tend to step away from induction.

Either way, I appreciate your thoughts, and you have made my morning out here in No Man's Land, TX. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Caliphilosopher

Caliphilosopher,

I enjoyed your response.

I guess it's a question of "undeserved violence."

Yes, I, too, find no reason or honor in abusing people, above all "innocents"; however, I believe there is a place for violence in life, when it is appropriate.

Unfortunately, defining the appropriateness of violence is one of the most complex issues of social and personal ethics.

And there are degrees of violence. In the face of the appropriateness of violence, particularly regarding issues that do not involve life-threatening issues, restraint becomes a key issue with the use of violence in any ethical capacity.

All that much said, I, personally, believe it is loving to occasionally utilize violence in a very limited capacity, because, unfortunately, some people have a parasitic narcissism in the way that they approach life. These kind of people (and the kind of person/Celtics fan who would show up to a Lakers celebration and then simply find joy out of trying to ruin it for the group) are the kind of people who take advantage of sentimental compassion. They will continue their destructive, negative behavior because they gain joy and confidence out of abusing others.

For these types of people, it is loving to forcefully tell them, "STOP!" even if that requires violence. Because they MAY learn through that negative reinforcement, but silence or kindness, sadly, just reinforces their abusive nature.

Again, it becomes an issue of whether or not one is acting out of ego, or out of a courageous compassion to end a person's parasitic negative behavior.

In the end, I believe that regarding ethics we are each called to boldly go forth into the world ethically, even though none of us will ever acheive complete ethical clarity with wisdom.

In the end, we all have to make our choices and, ideally, choose them in the hopes of making life better. The not knowing if our choices are for good or ill spawns the necessity of faith in life and that is something each of us must embrace to be an effective (and truly ethical) human being.

GO LAKERS!

No matter WHERE you go to watch your team, you're are allowed to wear the shirt you want!

If you check out the Hockey finals, you'll notice that fans FLEW to other cities and so on. And NONE of this happened! Example: Canadians fans flew to Boston wearing make-up and shirts and SAT next to Boston supporters without fighting. And fans from other teams flew in to Montreal and invaded the Bell center without any harm happening. It was FUNNY not madness.

So what i'm saying is, LEARN TO RESPECT any teams and any fans, LEARN to live with respect and integrity.

Ask yourself the question: What do the world think about Los Angeles people now? A bunch of fan beaters and angry people who do not respect others?

Man, if you want to stop tourism in your city, you're doing a good job there. Bravo for your tourism economy, going down the drain. So think seriously about it.