A few thoughts on the afternoon after
June 18, 2008 | 3:44
pm
No question last night's carnage will sting for a while. It should. In terms of product quality, what the Lakers trotted out Tuesday night in Boston was the basketball equivalent of expired olives and curdled milk. Inedible. Indigestible. Unfit for human consumption. It was a tough way to end what was a remarkable season, but on the bright side, the foul taste it leaves in the mouths of players and coaches should help push them through the summer and into next season. The Finals was a reminder that the Lakers still have work to do and holes to fill.
Obviously, we'll have a lot of thoughts on the season past and the one upcoming as the Lakers work through exit interviews, the draft (though on the surface, they won't have much to do there), and the NBA's free agency period. But here are a few quick thoughts on the series, the season, and looking forward (as they float through my head, in no particular order):
- I understand the disappointment with losing in the Finals, and certainly once a team gets to that point in the season, there is a reasonable expectation of a title, but overall people should be exceedingly pleased with the 2007-2008 season. It was a huge success, especially given the grim state of the franchise only one year ago. To go from there to losing in Game 6 of the championship series is remarkable. That the team is poised to compete on that level for the next half-decade or so should only make people more excited.
- The Lakers didn't put their best foot forward in the Finals, but it's important to give credit where it's due- the Celtics. Boston's defensive schemes brutalized the Lakers offense, and more than that, the Celtics offense was patient and exploited holes in LA's defense. Before the series, I looked at the way Boston struggled to score on their playoff opponents, and thought they'd be at a disadvantage against what I felt was an underrated Lakers D. Fair to say I was wrong, not just about that, but about the strength of the Celtics generally.
- They were the better team, made better by the matchups. LA wasn't a good fit with Boston.
- Boston's bench outplayed LA's, but not simply because they have better players, but a better variety. It was a great mix of experience (Brown, Cassell, Posey), muscle (Powe, Brown), and shooting (House, Posey), defense (Posey, Tony Allen, if you want to include him) and so on that helped Doc find the combinations he used so effectively. The Lakers bench isn't necessarily bad, but it lacks variety. This offseason, the Lakers should look to fill roles. A bruiser, a defensive specialist, and so on, until they have true balance up and down the active roster. As good as LA's bench was at times this season, at others, they really struggled. This experience, though, should help guys like Farmar and Vujacic.
- Along those lines, playing with the lesser team and therefore a smaller margin for error, the Lakers
needed Phil Jackson to be superior during the series, and he wasn't.
- The Celtics proved that when it comes to defense, the sum is often greater than the parts. The Lakers took positive steps defensively this season, but received six chances to see up close and personal how it well it can be done. It was too easy for Boston to pull LA out of their defensive rhythm, and the Lakers were prone to too many big, series shifting mistakes.
- I thought Pau Gasol had done a better job in the series than he had been given credit for, particularly on defense... until last night. He was bad from the start, and the misfortune he saw early only compounded his problems and that of his team. LO's play improved as the series went on, once he calmed down and figured out how to stay on the court. While he had trouble finishing around the rim- something we've seen before- I think the knock that he was soft or unaggressive isn't fair. He generally attacked the rack and was active on the glass over the final three games. Asked to do a variety of things defensively, Odom did a pretty good job. Could he have played better? Did the Lakers need more? Yes, to both. But while it's always easier to cast people in roles, to say "If that guy did more, the Lakers would have won," it's not that simple, and to pin the loss on Odom doesn't sit right with me.
- Kobe: Clearly had trouble shooting the ball, thanks to some extremely aggressive Boston defense. It wasn't a good series for him, but at the same time, I don't think we saw much of the "old Kobe." After Game 5, when asked if he needed to go for 40+ for the Lakers to have a chance against the Celtics in Boston, Kobe told the media that he could probably force his way to 45, but that's not the way they were going to win. He's right, and he didn't. Not that he didn't (or shouldn't- he is Kobe Bryant after all) try to look for his space. But despite what I'm sure was an overwhelming temptation to start jacking shots left and right, for the most part Kobe tried to continue moving the ball, recognizing that he couldn't shoot the Lakers to a win. Boston wouldn't let him.
- The Lakers needed to elevate their play as a team, and weren't able to do it. As a team, from Kobe on down.
- Regarding Odom, people should be careful when they demand he be moved. First, he's among the team's only rebounders. When Drew returns, they'll have another, but LO is as strong a force on the glass as the team has. That would have to be replaced. Second, with Odom the Lakers have a guy who is completely willing to play the role of "third or fourth guy." He doesn't need, or particularly want, to shoot the ball 18 times a game. Given that they'll have Kobe, Bynum, and Gasol next season, it might not be a good idea to bring in someone who "needs his." Yes, he can be frustrating, but it's a question of the devil you know vs. the devil you don't. The devil they have isn't so bad.
- I'd love to see if they can make the Bynum/Gasol/Odom frontcourt work, or perhaps see if Odom could be a kind of Super Sixth Man, rather than deciding it won't and moving LO in the offseason.
- The Lakers, and this could be solved naturally next year with LO at the three, need to improve that spot on the roster. Even if Odom moves there to start, they need help. Ariza is a good place to start, but if there's a focus in free agency this summer, small forward should be it.
- This team needs tweaks, not a sledgehammer.
- Few teams, including the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, win the whole thing so
soon after returning to potential championship form. The Celtics are
an exception to that rule, but then again, that roster is an exception
to the general laws of roster construction as well. What they did and
how they did it is a rare, rare thing.
There are plenty more things to kick around. Like I said, this is just a stream-of-consciousness list. It's not all inclusive, by any stretch.
BK
Thank you Utzworld, The Banner Holder for providing us the guiding light to sanity through your fervent prayers in the playoffs. You and Mamba24 are the spirit of the blog and I enjoyed the year with the Blog Family.This will be the last series of post for today on Analysis of the Roster for 2009 based on my viewpoint.
Continuing my post with Taos Hum with regards to next season's roster with their corresponding salaries:
Bench:
Farmar - Retain OR can included in package w/ future PG
Sasha - may Lose him b/c another team will get him an MLE contract
Ariza - retain preferably a small increase of 50% on his current contract of $3.9M not more than maximu of MLE contract
Mihm - gone OR included in a package with other players
Walton - GONE OR included in a package with other players
Mbenga - retain for $1M contract extention of one year
Newble - gone
Coby Karly - retain for $1M contract if healthy
Sun Yue - rookie year
Prior to Analysis of the Starter, let me enumerate the players who are available based on Players Option (p/o) or Qualifying Offer (q/o). As the name implies a qualifying offer gives the present team the retainment rights of matching the best offer. On the player option, the player could move to another team of his choice based on better pay or maximizing his future potentials. Salaries are based on '08. I don't know if it's left blank.
Q/O
Monta Ellis
Iguodala 3.8M
Delfino, Carlos 2.7
Gordon 6.4
Luol Deng 4.4
Delonte West 2.7
Josh Smith 3.1
M. Williams
Navarro
Biedrins 3.6
Gibson
Swift 3.5
James Jones
Livingston 5.8
Gelebale
Okafor 7.0
Najera
JR Smith 2.3
Kristic 2.7
Milsap 0.7
Jones, James
Gibson
Childress 4.8
Stoudamire , Salim
Carter, Anthony
Green, Taureen
Ely, Melvyn
Wright, Dorell 2.4
JR Smith 2.3
P/O
Artest 8.4M
Arenas 12.8
Posey 3.4
Marion 17.1
Davis, Baron 16.1
Foster, Jeff 6.1
Pargo 2.0
Maggette 8.4
Brand 16.1
Now let me go with the Lakers' Starters
Kobe - RETAIN @ $21.2M Next season Kobe could exercise his players option at $23M. I believe Mitch should re-negotiate a long term contract of five years pegged at $21M with additional playoff incentives on top of regular bonuses. Let's have partnership with Kobe to manage the salary cap.
Gasol - Retain 15.1M He has to submit to rigid training with Kareem, Kurt at early preseason and play more games with Kobe in the off season i.e. on top of the Olympic games in August.
Fisher - Retain 4.6M Perhaps a 2nd stringer during the season to preserve his endurance in the off season assuming that Lakers will have a new full time PG
Andrew Bynum - Retain $2.7. By mid-season re-negotiate a long term contract based on his health, performance as the permanent 5 of the Lakers.
Vlad Radmanovic - Gone 6.0M or Packaged with other players in getting a consistent shooting forward and good guard. He is the Enemy No. 2 in the trading list but has improved considerably in R and helped the team in winning games. Not enough for much needed cap space savigns on his MLE contract
Lamar Odom - Gone $14.5M For the last four years we have seen the worst and the best of Odom as a Laker. Based on the aforementioned F/A on p/o, it is just too tempting to let those opportunites passed by. we can get two good contracts for the salary of LO. However, if Dr. Buss would like to table this deal, he can re-evaluate at mid season but we lost the opportunity in getting the P/O derby like Artest, Davis, Calderon, Posey, Arenas, Brand, Pargo and Maggette or participate on q/o players. Lakers MUST BEEF UP their defense roster to compete for Championship in 2009.
In a nutshell, I am asking for trading Lamar, Vlad, Luke, Chris and also Sasha (b/c we'll lose him anyway) to save cap space and buy players in F/A market. I leave to others the ramification of those deals.
Tomorrow, I will post here tomorrow my letter to Mitch Kupchak and paint different scenarios with the acquisition of F/A's on p/o with their corresponding salaries. That's it folk, thanks for the opportunity of blogging with you, see you on July 1st Draft day.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | June 18, 2008 at 07:54 PM
Beat LA!!
Posted by: RedHottLAFan | June 18, 2008 at 08:02 PM
Hello children!
Well wasn't that fun for all of us? 2 teams that didn't matter for years, the sub-plot of past finals, all being played with house money.
See you next year.
Don't be hatin
Posted by: greenweenies? | June 18, 2008 at 08:23 PM
Odom is great trade bait because everybody still loves his potential and his salary 14.5 mil and that comes off the books next year if it doesnt work out
Posted by: Darnell | June 18, 2008 at 08:30 PM
hi
I actually see some people entertaining MY IDEA of bringing back Kwame...Let's be clear,,that could be a trade for Mihm, straight up. Kwame wouldn't play much. And you aren't picking between Gasol and Kwame. Take both, and Bynum, and your middle is strong and versatile. BTW, I feel that Kwame and Gasol in the middle would have gone a long way in neutralizing Boston's weight. But to plan the best team, you have to know that it isn't always going to be Boston. Against some teams Gasol IS the best. Others, not so much. And the Lakers just never matched up against the Celtics. The Lakers were designed to win the West. But the point is Kwame gives you the versatility to shut down teams like Boston who are basically throwing cutblocks in the lane. I actually saw Gasol get pile-driven on one drive...and then the lane was open..If the refs aren't going to call that a foul then get a big guy in there who cant be pushed around like that. Get Kwame. Keep him on the bench, and use him when you gotta bruise 'em...
Posted by: jeffgrotke | June 18, 2008 at 08:30 PM
it seems as if the lakers lost due to the lack of experience and defese. this defeat, though bitter, serves as a good experience for the younger players of the team.
the lakers started off this season with unrest, and low expectations. people didn't expect this team to even make it to the talent-laden western conference playoffs. making it to the finals should be a privilege, not a given.
as for next year, there should be a few changes to be made that could easily be solved.
PG: we all know that fish is fish. he is pretty consistent, and though he doesn't necessarily put up big numbers, he is a natural leader and a bit like a big brother to everyone to the team. and he controls kobe.
farmar, with practice, can improve drastically over the summer.
SG: kobe will get better and probably mature over the summer, and become an even better leader and teammate next year.
C: bynum will be back, and will be better than ever, unless his knee hampers him. hopefully, he'll become a beast. and with the resigning of turiaf, the center spot should be secured.
PF: with a 7 footer on the 4 spot, the lakers should be pretty well off. gasol even said himself, that he is naturally a PF, and not a center, so the spot should fit him nicely, with him being a good passer and being nimble.
SF: this spot is a bit more complicated. odom could come to this spot, as he is a good passer/rebounder/inside scorer. but he needs to drastically improve his outside shot.
or the team could pick up a free agent like artest. though artest seems interested in winning a championship, and signing to a low contract, his controversial actions could lead to bad things.
bench: well said. the defense needs specialists who could help the lakers become more complete.
Posted by: pedro | June 18, 2008 at 08:33 PM
all you trade hawks should also think about the fact that this YOUNG team is going to get better. If they improve as much, individually, as they did from last year, to this year, then you will be looking at 65 wins. That includes Luke being a more confident shooter. Sasha getting 20 on a regular basis. And Vlade and Lamar becoming more comfortable in the offense. Maybe Mbenga will even become more consistent.
Posted by: jeffgrotke | June 18, 2008 at 08:38 PM
simply, with bynum in the mix next year, lamar will be more comfortable at the 4th option. he does not to score but to defend.... only to defend...... give odom a break...
Posted by: edodgreat | June 18, 2008 at 08:42 PM
Defense makes a basketball team very ugly to watch. No excitement at all. The lake Show plays at its best offensively. It doesn't have to change, just because Boston's D was very effective this series, it will always be effective. C'mon guys, basketball is won by points. Rebounds and steals help (a lot) but you win by points, and it's more exciting to watch.
By the way, try simulating games in NBA Live. Man nobody can't beat me at it with KB24, AB17, PG16, LO7, DF2 in my line-up. This team rocks and the future is bright!
go lakers!
Posted by: erick_truelakerfan | June 18, 2008 at 08:45 PM
BK,
You wrote: It's not that Lamar is irreplaceable, but it's harder than you think. Remember, at this point, we're talking about someone who would be a third or fourth option in the offense. No team's 3/4 guy is an every night star (or he'd be a 1/2) He wouldn't be expected to pour in 20 a night, nor would they need him to. Meanwhile, he's the consummate company guy. He'll crash the glass, distribute the ball, try to play D, etc
My response: We're paying him $$ for a #2 guy and he
hasn't lived up to that. We got Gasol and he was to be
the #3 guy. He's been suspect at that. What we
most need out of a F is: Rebounds & Defense. Do you
think either of those are his strong suits?
You also wrote: Lamar shouldn't be immune to criticism, but he shouldn't become the point man for the team's collective failure in the Finals. Who stepped up and played well throughout? Again, consider the things he did well, and the role he played in getting them there in the first place
My response: He's not the point man for the team's
collective failure. I have been an advocate for getting
a defensive SF for a year. I was against Vlad because
we had Cook and I saw them as the same role. I
have consistently argued against Odom at the SF
position because I've watched SF's torch us all year.
As a practicing martial artist I constantly judge people's
reaction times and physical attributes. I also pay
attention to "spirit"/character.
We took an exacto knife to the Battle of Hastings and
got beaten to a pulp physically. The Celtics have served
notice that it's going to be a physical, violent, team war.
Do you *really* want to go to war with Lamar? Has he
ever been a consistent rebounder? Has he ever played
consistent D?
BTW, I'm ok with Odom coming off the bench. I think I'd
prefer to go to war with Turiaf over Odom. He's got
better "spirit".
Posted by: hobbitmage | June 18, 2008 at 08:49 PM
The problem with Lamar is that he is undependable. If you make someone that undependable a major cog in your machine, you are asking for trouble.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | June 18, 2008 at 08:55 PM
I know a lot of people are hot on dumping Mihm. Personally I would bring him to camp next fall, if he can play - keep him. If his movement is bad and he looks like he did in the game he played in this series - yes he would be gone. But come on - before the injuries he was an average NBA center - not good, certainly not great, but adequate in relation to most of the other centers in the association. He can shoot a little, had a nice jump hook. As your back up or even third string center he WAS probably better than most. Give the guy a chance. Unlike a lot of players he at least gives an effort and as the old saying goes you can't teach height. If Bynum is starting and the rotate Pau and Mihm to give Bynum a break I would be cool with that.
Now as far as Luke and Vlad. Get rid of them. Odom? If you can find a deal that makes sense - I would say see ya later. Keep the rest and add some pieces that make sense.
PJ - I would keep. He did a great job. Despite the crappy Finals series , it is amazing the Lakers made it this far. Face it Boston was the better team. They were more consistent and that has more to do with the fact Boston had experience guys for all the roles. The Lakers had a bunch of playoff neophites that had never been this deep and never forced to perfom at this level. I truly believe that if both teams played at their maximum level the Lakers would win a hard fought series. But the Lakers in part because of the Celtics and partly due to their own making they never played at that level more than for brief stretches. Credit the Celtics they played more consistently as a team and did a good job of taking Kobe out of it because none of the Lakers picked it up other than Sasha for a game. and Pau and LO in another game.
I look forward to next season. I am sad by the embarassment that was game six, but overall I am not sure I really expected the Lakers to get this far.
Eagleboy
Posted by: Eagleboy | June 18, 2008 at 09:00 PM
in his last three games against against the celtics, Lebron James averaged over 37 points. Two of those games were in boston. In his last three games against the celtics, Kobe averaged under 22 points. Kobe is a way better shooter than lebron. What that basically tells me is that Larry Brown figured out how to get his star easy shots when it counted. The Cavs may have had way less options so the choice may have been easier for Brown. But Phil said himself in game 6 that he wanted Kobe to take over. It doesnt look like phil did anything other than just tell kobe to do his thing. He couldnt or didnt figure out the celtic's defense. It's the coach's job to put thier players in a position where they can shine. Phil didnt do that in addition to his complete failure to teach a young team the virtures of playing defense. It's true that Boston was a better team, they deserved to win. But if PJ was teh super coach that everybody keeps saying he is, he could have found a way to make it more competitive.
Posted by: James Deen | June 18, 2008 at 09:09 PM
I've been stopping by throughout the day to read all the posts. I admire everybody who's been able to collect their thoughts so quickly. I was still speechless this morning, and little has changed.
I know this team can't remain as is if it wants to return to the Finals next season. I'm sure about Kobe, Fish, Farmar, Sasha, Trevor, and of course Bynum. That's only six of the 15 roster slots. But that's it.
I'm still in a daze. But apart from the Finals, this was a great year. Sorry if all this seems incoherent. It's just still very hard.
Posted by: Rick Friedman | June 18, 2008 at 09:10 PM
Congratulations to Lakers for a great great season.
Now whatever the Lakers do this summer, it has to be focused on getting someone who DOES NOT get intimidated by PERKINS AND GARNETT.
BYNUM will take care of this right away. Pau will get more confidence in the paint when he sees BYNUM with him. The TWO will be unstoppable force next season.
TEAM defense is next on the list. PHIL JACKSON must spend more time in defense this summer and less on offense.
THE c"s were thought to sacrifice and take charges, that's why Kobe is nit able to penetrate. The Lakers need to have this ame type of defense and players willing to take charges. The lakers defens are more trying to block a shot more than stopping the person get in the lane. This must improve, it was too obvious in SIX DANG GAMES! Maybe get Jeff Van GUNDY as a dfensive Coach for the Lakers and get rid some of Phil Jackson's chronies.
We do this TWO and Celtics can not beat the Lakers again in this era.
Posted by: Staples 24 | June 18, 2008 at 09:19 PM
I think Lakers should trade Lamar Odom, Radmanovic, Turiaf, and get
Joe Johnson and Mike Miller and a veteran power forward who rebounds, mid range game, and great defense, and strong.
Posted by: kobe | June 18, 2008 at 09:31 PM
The lakers went in the Finals contented and happy. They didnt expect to be in this position during training camp.. As the season went on, and few trades improved the team, it made them realize they can contend.. but they were not hungry.. In their mind, we have just been formed, we didnt have Bynum, etc, and look at where we are, In the finals!
They didnt take full advantage of the opportunity given to them.
On the other hand, boston from the start had the pressure and expectation to be the champions. They had a great wake up call when they were pushed by atlanta in the first round. It made them more focused, more determined
Boston just wanted it more.. because they know how important this opportunity is.
Posted by: | June 18, 2008 at 09:31 PM
BK - I really enjoyed reading your analysis. For the most part, you are spot on. A couple points where I beg to differ. I don't think LO can play the three spot. He can't stretch the defense with his shooting and I don't think he has the quickness to defend opposing three's. I do agree that we shouldn't move him as he provides value on the glass and with his atttitude, but also because no other team would want his contract. The logical answer is to bring him off the bench - rotating he, gasol and bynum on the blocks. This does underscore our need to bring in a quality 3, as I also believe Vlad Rad should come off the bench. The point you missed was our weakness at point guard. God bless D-Fish, but I think he overchieved this year, and disappeared in the finals. Like Odom, I believe his future is quality time off the bench. I'm sorry, but Farmar and Walton do nothing for me. Farmar's range is a liability. Perhaps he will get better, but I'm not inclined to wait and see. In leui of a new small forward and new point guard, I think our best starting unit is Bynum, Gasol, Ariza, Bryant and Fisher. A second unit of Turiaf, Odom, Vlad Rad, Vujacic and Farmar is solid. If we get the new small forward and point guard, then slide Ariza to Vlad Rad's spot on the second unit, and Fisher to Famar's spot, and use Vlad Rad as a floater, depending upon fouls and matchups. Having said this, I now want to quickly blow-off some steam from all the harsh criticism from Game 6. First, the media is just lashing out because they were wrong in the first place. Everybody jumped on our band wagon after the San Antonio Series. As a life long Laker fan, even I thought Boston should have been the favorite. They won 66 games and had Pierce, Allen and Garnett. The simple truth is Allen found his jumper - if he had played as he did in the first three series, we would be talking about something completely different right now. Second, I felt all year that this was just a prelude to next year. Nobody, and I mean not even the hard core fans could have imagined this last October. As Huey Lewis once said, our future is so bright, we gotta wear shades. Last, but not least, get off our backs you haters - over the past 28 years, we have been in the finals 14 times (having won 8). Do the math, that's 50% of the time over the past quarter century. We are the greatest sports franchise with the possible exception of the Yankees. We have survived the passing of the Chamberlain, West and Baylor era, the Kareem, Magic and Worthy era, the Shaq and Kobe area, and now we are into the Kobe, Bynum and Gasol era. The same can not be said of any other team. The Bulls were pumpkins before Jordan, and they returned to pumpkins after he left, the Celtics fell off the face of the earth from 1987 to 2008, the Rockets have returned to dust, and as soon as Duncan retires, you can toss the Spurs in that heap. We are constant and we are champions, regardless of what happened on one night in June. We are the freaking Lakers. I can't wait until November!!!
Posted by: Lincoln Laker | June 18, 2008 at 09:36 PM
hobbitmage-
You're looking for rebounding and defense from your forwards, then ask me if I think LO excels at either. Well, he was the seventh leading rebounder in the league last season at 10.6 a night, so I'd say he has that part covered. As for his defense, I think he's a pretty good, versatile defender. He's asked to guard a wide variety of players, and is generally solid. Some poor decisions from time to time for sure, but overall, I actually think he's pretty good. One of the stronger on the team.
You say too that he was "suspect" as a number 3 once the Lakers got Gasol. Seriously? His February stats: 14.5/11.6/4.5 on 62% from the floor. March: 15.4/12.7/4.2 on 55%. Plus nearly two blocks a night. April: 16.1/10.6/3.5 on 63%. That's pretty damn good.
The money he makes is a secondary issue, because anyone they get for him will be making similar coin. Or they let him go and get nothing, and get the cap space, which equals a luxury tax writeoff only, because they're going to be over the cap anyway after next season, with or without him. I don't think they should give him another 13 mil per season in a new deal- there's no guarantee they should give him a new deal at any price- but to focus on his salary is to miss the forest for the trees. Yes, he's paid like a #2, no he isn't a good one. As we've written time and time again on the site, he's miscast in that role. Focus on how he fits into the team, not on his salary.
Again, the point isn't that Odom should be canonized, or a lock to be resigned at any price after next year. It may be that the big frontline they'll have next season doesn't work. That teams run on them (more a problem of having Bynum and Gasol on the floor together than an issue with LO) or that Odom's J won't be reliable enough to spread the floor (a bigger concern). On the other hand, it might be totally awesome to have all three of those guys available. I'd love to see what it looks like before declaring it a failure.
Lamar brings a lot of positives to the table with his negatives. He could be, as you suggest, a killer sixth man. There are options. I just think that declaring he ought to be shipped out of town based on the Finals is a bad move. He isn't a perfect player, but Odom brings a lot to the table and brings a skill set and attitude of his place on the team that would be hard to replicate. If a great deal is there? Pull the trigger. But there are more bad fits in an Odom swap than good.
I wonder sometimes, just as people complained that the bar moved for Kobe in the MVP issue, that the bar doesn't move for Odom, too.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | June 18, 2008 at 09:39 PM
Ajax, you are right on! Lakers will be fine and we should be proud of them. Here's to the beginning of the new dynasty!
Posted by: T-Rock | June 18, 2008 at 09:45 PM
Wow I cant believe that there are a lot of people back to wanting to trade half the roster again after making the finals? Pathetic.
The media really has even Laker fans believing that we were so over matched, but scoreboard says we were one or two plays away from winning the 1st 3 games we lost and Boston was one or two plays away from winning the ones they lost. Thats how evenly matched these teams were. Ya we got blown out in game six that happens in basketball. But we were a lucky bounce or one less bad call away from winning in 4 or 5 as well.
Like BK, I believe we need some tweeks, not major surgery. And a lot of you guys are really good at spending Dr. Busses money but seriously, if we trade Lamar say we will have to bring back contract, probably a lot longer then one year.
Oh by the way Hobbitmage, Lamar last 3 years has averaged 9.2, 9.8 and 10.6 (7th in the league) in rebounding as well as over 10 for the 08 playoffs, I think thats consistant.
And for all the trade Pau guys out there, Why? Yes he is not a strong big body type player, but we have a guy named Bynum for that role next year. Look at what Pau did in the playoffs. He totally dominated Carlos Boozer. He held his own against Tim Duncan and pretty much shut KG down from the 2nd half of game one until game 6. And the one game KG had Pau as his primary assignment Pau went off for his best game and totally out played him. Can he stand up to the physical centers? No. Can he stand up to most PF? Hell ya. The only PF I have ahead of Pau are Duncan, KG and Brand. Now the odds of us getting any of those 3 are remote, So who else exactly do you guys want to see at PF? We need better SF play and a banger off the bench and with health, we win it all next year. GO LAKERS.
MH
Posted by: michael h | June 18, 2008 at 09:55 PM
Just wondering
All this talk about Gasol playing out of position
Why didn't PJ put Mbenga at center, move Gasol to PF, and Odum to SF.
Isn't this what we are going to when Bynum comes back?
I know this is hindsight, but it makes perfect sense now.
Why PJ didn't use Mbenga in this series will always be a mystery. We could have used a big body to try and offset the Celtics frontline.
IS MBENGA THAT BAD?
WHY PHIL WHY
IT IS SO LOGICAL, WE COULD HAVE SEEN WHAT GASOL CAN DO AT HIS "NATURAL" POWER FORWARD POSITION AND LAMAR AT THE SMALL FORWARD, PLUS HAVE A BIG BODY TO AT LEAST MAKE BOSTON THINK TWICE ABOUT DRIVING THE LANE.
Posted by: Do You See What I See | June 18, 2008 at 10:01 PM
michael h-
Well put. The team just lost in Game 6 OF THE NBA FINALS. Fingers off the panic button, people.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | June 18, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Long Time Laker Fan,
I must say that I like Shane Battier.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon K. | June 18, 2008 at 10:17 PM
why would anyone think that LO is a bad fit for the Lakers? do you guys really watch basketball or you stick too much on the internet and read some moronic boston-celtic-biased reporter's opinion? LO's the most versatile player in the team, can play SF, PF, even center and POINT-FW. What do you need from him? He does that. Think about it this way, If KOBE is the greatest player on the planet and can only score above 20, do you expect LO to do better than that. Give credit to Boston's D, they're in the zone and it's just that we're caught off guard because I think we scouted too much on their first two playoff rounds showing.
lakers rock and we'll totally roll next season.
It's time for Kobe to get his gold medal in the 2008 Olympics. He's your USA Baskeball saviour.
Let's all move on and wait for the coming season. \m/
Posted by: erick_truelakerfan | June 18, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Do,
"IS MBENGA THAT BAD"
yes.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | June 18, 2008 at 10:18 PM
I never understood why the Lakers didn't play LO at the one. That really would have help open the lane more for Kobe against boston. Oh well hindsight is 20 20.
Posted by: richtown
-------------------------------------------
Several weeks ago I mentioned I'd like to see LO run the offense a little. Not full time--that would cause too many heart attacks among fans. But he has the ball skills and the height to see over the defense.
Posted by: MiloRambaldi | June 18, 2008 at 10:21 PM
Lakers blew there opportunity to win this series in Game 1 and Game 4. Both games were winnable and these are the games we needed Kobe to be great on both ends of the floor. His teammates are getting a lot of the blame, but had Kobe stepped up in Games 1 and 4 Lakers win this series or at least we are tied 3-3. He had plenty of help in Game 4 and still only shot 6-19.
Posted by: online tv | June 18, 2008 at 10:24 PM
James Deen,
"he could have found a way to make it more competitive."
Boy, you apparently bought the anti-PJ line sight unseen!
More competitive? Look at how close games 1,2, and 4 were. A couple possessions go different each of those games, and the Lakers win in a sweep. This was playing against a very veteran team, with home court! PJ did a very good job making it competitive!
Posted by: exhelodrvr | June 18, 2008 at 10:27 PM
Eagle Boy,
There is a big chance, Lakers will retainChris Mihm mentioned in my post in the previous thread because he is on a player option status. I don't think another team will be interested with his contract unless there is really an enticing player in the draft picks or possible package deal on a mega trade. If he's not serviceable, he's occupying a roster space like in the Finals and a 2.5m could spend wisely with a young prospect. I am one of the proponents here since 2006 of retaining Chris, debating furiously w/ LakerTom and AZ that we can teach a rookie the fundamentals but can't demand height. From that time, Lakers spent an estimate of $9M on this player who was on the injury list, tho' not his fault but we could have gotten a journeyman that may have helped the team in the finals. Mitch again gambled last season by giving him a two year player option at $ 2.5M when the fact of the matter 4 other teams rejected him after considering for partial MLE. According to Mike T in 2006 he was a fool's gold on his height with weak upper extremities and weak D. From on those list of F/A with player options, it will be a great waste if Lakers let opportunities go by.
By the way, two new developments as we post Artest not opting on his contract. That's the danger with this player a head case. Carlos Navarro decided to go back to Euro League than languished with the Grizzlies.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | June 18, 2008 at 10:27 PM
Michael H and BK,
Who is better?
Lamar Odom vs. Brand
Lamar Odom vs. Arenas + Posey
Lamar Odom vs. Baron Davis
When does loyalty to one player ends and loyalty to the Laker team begins.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | June 18, 2008 at 10:36 PM
The Lakers had originally pegged LO as the quintessential small forward in the same mold as Scotty Pippen. The reality as we came to discover is that LO does not possess any of the qualities of Pippen, including a reliable jumper, the dribble drive penetration, floor generalship, and more importantly the mental toughness and the will to compete on a nightly basis.
The one guy who possesses Pippen-like qualities is out there now. This guy can be the sidekick Kobe has been longing for. I am talking about Ron Artest.
Posted by: Rollo | June 18, 2008 at 10:40 PM
Hey ladies,
How die you all feel when Celtic Nation was chanting "You're not Jordan" to your starlet?
I bet you all are sooooooo disappointed that Kobeef has been exposed as just another Wannabe Jordan.
hahaahahhahahahhhah
Please watch Letterman tonight when the "Big 3" are interviewed.
I heard on the radio today that KG is a resident in Malabu. KG lives in So Cal and you all couldn't get him last offseason? I suppose Kobe's crybaby session and badmouthing of teammates did the trick.
Thank you so much Kobeef.
Posted by: Let's go C's! | June 18, 2008 at 10:41 PM
Oh, BTW ladies,
What is up with the player hating on KG? You ladies are just like your starlet hating on others.
Serves you right that your team was EMBARASSED over and over again during these finals. I hope to see you all again next year so we can embarass you again.
hahhahahahahahahahhhhhahh!
brahahabrahbrarhharhrhahrhahha!!!
Posted by: Let's go C's! | June 18, 2008 at 10:42 PM
Well put Michael H and BK,
Everyone needs to stop panicking! Let this young Laker team grow a little and improve internally as they showed they could do last offseason. Remember, LA nearly rallied a furious game 2 win, and were up 24 in game 4. That easily could be a Laker championship 4-1. Give this current team and chance to grow.
All these calls for trades is way too early. I hope Odom stays. He is so unselfish, perfect team fit, willing to play a 3rd or 4th option and do whatever role is needed. I really want to see an Odom Gasol Bynum frontline. I don't even think the team really needs that much of an upgrade at SF. Radman, Walton, Ariza, each provide a strength.
As already stated, small tweaks, bringing in a bruiser/enforcer is really all I think the team needs.
Stay patient everybody, this Laker team will be back.
Posted by: Adam | June 18, 2008 at 10:58 PM
How can somebody critize Gasol?
Ok, he can be soft, but I have to remember you that he is NOT a center, he is a PF! Pau has done a very good playoffs, batling with player that was a lot more physical than him. Duncan, Boozer and Garnett. And he has done a very nice job. Have I to remember how did he keep Garnett with his badest numbers in PO?
Please, justice with Gasol!
And I'm sorry BK, but I think too Odom has to be traded. Ok, he is a hell of rebounder, and he is ease being the third option, but it's about winning, and Odom is a loser.
Posted by: | June 18, 2008 at 11:18 PM
i would love it if we trade odom for artest
artest brings more or less the same contribution, odom did.
but he's much more resilient.
and a big defensive presences + offensively sound
Posted by: 1331 | June 18, 2008 at 11:20 PM
No need to panic Ladies.
You all will have the summer, training camp and all of next season to remember the EMBARASSMENT of your team and so-called "best player in the world" who was exposed as a Wannabe Jordan.
Averaging 25 points on 25 shots? Pathetic.
Posted by: Let's go C's! | June 18, 2008 at 11:22 PM
Edwin-
Putting aside for a moment question of exactly how you're planning on getting those players (and why it's a choice between Odom and Arenas plus Posey, who don't even play on the same team and the latter of whom could theoretically be had completely independent of any action on Odom), you have to put the larger team in context.
EB is a better player than LO, no question. I'm a huge Brand fan. Where does he play? In this scenario, do you move Pau, too? Brand can't play SF.
Do you really think putting Gilbert Arenas and Kobe Bryant on the same team for 82 games is a good idea? On and off the court? And just out of curiosity, who replaces Odom in the frontcourt?
I'm a big Davis fan, too, but again, is pairing him with Kobe Bryant a great idea? Add the same question as above, then ask whether or not you're willing to give Davis, who at nearly 30 years old has played more than 63 games a grand total of twice in the last six seasons the kind of long term, big money contract he'll likely be looking for if he opts out, or moves in a sign and trade?
It's not a question of loyalty to a player over loyalty to team. Creating a winning group isn't simply a matter of building an All Star team.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | June 18, 2008 at 11:24 PM
And, as a basketball coach and player, it's clear why we have lost this finals:
Not Kobe, not Pau, not Odom.
The problem is our bench. We have been all blinded by the bench play all the season and the improvement. But that don't win games or championships.
Look Our bench:
Sasha, Farmar, Ariza, Turiaf,... All young and inexperienced. I'm not saying we have to trade them, so they will play each year better, but we need 2 or 3 veteran players like Boston's Posey, House, PJ Brown, to give our bench what we missed in the finals.
And of course, Radmanovic and Walton must be waived, they are anti basketball players.
Posted by: | June 18, 2008 at 11:24 PM
I would like, if possible, to offer a few untouched upon insights. Many people have certainly considered these ideas already, but I haven't really seen them stated.
Firstly, I did notice ajax mentioned it, but I would like to mention that we did lose the one series in which we did not have home court advantage. I do think that makes a difference for any team. For this particular team that has struggled on the road (particularly Odom, Gasol, and the bench), I think home court advantage could have greatly increased our chances during the playoffs. We didn't have it and it hurt us some (though I don't think we necessarily would have won with home court advantage).
If we can get home court advantage throughout the entire playoffs next year I believe that will help us tremendously.
The second point I'd like to touch upon is defensive reputation. The Celts obviously had it and the Lakers didn't. I believe part of the foul calling disparity was due ot the fact that the Celts had the reputation of being a strong defensive team. Much like the 03-04 and and 04-05 Pistons, the Celts got beneficial calls or no calls (particularly on reach ins and other defensive calls (a few Paul Pierce blocking fouls too). KG being defensive player of the year may have impacted the officials allowing him to hold on every frickin screen.
In the future, we as the Lakers should work hard to develop a strong defensive reputation to get the benefit of more calls.
The third thing I want to mention is just how good is Kobe? I don't believe that this series proves that Kobe isn't as good as Mike. I suspect Mike might have been able to do a little bit better, but this Celts defense is very strong. I didn't notice anyone mentioning how much trouble they gave Lebronze. Kobe did better than Lebronze, but still had a lot of trouble. This team, under the excellent defensive leadership of Tom Thibodeau did a fantastic job of neutralizing a single player.
In the case of the Lakers and the way they depended upon Kobe much of the playoffs to finish off any close game, the Celts D was just too much. The Lakers became too dependent upon Kobe to close out games. Obviously, he's a weapon you want to use in that respect, but you have to have other options if Kobe's being swarmed.
Kobe may yet exceed Mike, but he's got to win a few more playoffs and get a few more playoff MVPs at minimum.
I really appreciate the many GHF comments suggesting that we focus on having exceeded expectations and not having totally blown these finals.
When we got Pau Gasol, I told anyone that would listen that I predicted the Lakers would make the finals, but that the Celts or Pistons might still beat them. Because of such an inspiring Western Conference Playoffs run, I predicted more from them, particuarly given the Celts early series struggles.
Unfortunately, Gasol, Odom, and the bench critically underperformed and we stuck with the overused philosophy that we had to have Kobe be a scorer in the second half of every game.
I'm willing to give Odom one more chance. He's made it to the big dance once now. He knows what it's like and he knows what it's like dealing with great defensive teams now. If Odom can't perform this next season well, particularly in the playoffs, I think we have to ship him.
I think we need to strongly pursue Ron Artest or Shane Battier. We could use a strong 3-point shooting small forward that's a good perimeter defender. To get one with Artest's on court smarts and other strong offensive skills (post ups) would be very nice.
Why we didn't pursue James Posey to begin with is completely beyond me.
My observations of our front office are that they're not visionary and that generally they're afraid to make roster changes. Because the triangle takes a while to learn that makes sense. However, I believe it's always important to snag great players if you can, particularly defensive players, in some cases just so other teams don't get them. Admittedly, Posey didn't look as good as he did in this series any previous time in his career.
The blueprint for a championship team includes a decent group of veterans to handle the tough late round playoff atmosphere. We didn't have that and I think we suffered as a result.
Keeping this team together and growing it's skills as a team could have very good results. I hope we let the soup boil for a bit longer and that we can keep a strong team together.
At this point, I'm willing to let go of Vladimir Radmanovich with no reservations. I'm close to being at the same point with Luke Walton.
I look forward to next year on a team with Artest and 30 minute sixth man in Odom, a healthy Bynum, and home court advantage throughout the playoffs.
Go Lakers!
Posted by: Benjamin | June 18, 2008 at 11:29 PM
IS IT PANIC OR TOO MUCH LOYALTY ON PERCEIVED DEFENSIVE SCRUBS?
Nobody panicked during the time of Smush, Kwame and Cook, we wasted three years;
Nobody panicked in 2008 Season and Lakers need to be commended for a job well done. However, there is no such thing a good 2nd place in Lakers tradition. Defense is the culprit then find cure for the disease.
No need to panic with Luke, Vlad and LO with total contract of $ 25M just this year alone being outfoxed by Celtics 2nd stringers Posey, Brown and Powe with total pay of $10M.
I guess it is not panicky but being more objective and opened to new propositions on the table. I just would like to summarize the majority of sentiments here:
Luke Walton = the new Smush in 2008-09
VladRad = the new Cookie in 2008-09
Lamar = a great guy but his contract is just too attractive to get a better 2 LO's in the F/A. However, if JB willing to invest his fortune in luxury taxes with LO, why not retain him?
But to have Lamar, Luke and Vlad in one team next year, that will be the greatest redundancy of defensive weaknesses in the Laker tradition, not even presence of Bynum, Kobe and Pau could cover their blatant shortcomings.
Let the debate begins......
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | June 18, 2008 at 11:49 PM
Too bad we're stuck with Vlad R and Puke Walton. Their salaries are so astronomical it will take a miracle to get rid of these two stiffs before their contracts are up. The only plausible move is to ship Lamo Odom out and sign Artest. Pick up another veteran shooter on the cheap and we have number 15!! Hopefully the c's will be there to witness it and can have their noses rubbed in it. What goes around comes around KG!!
Posted by: Matt W | June 19, 2008 at 12:02 AM
Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett were just on Letterman.
Happy days.
Good night Ladies.
Posted by: Let's go C's! | June 19, 2008 at 12:18 AM
how bout a line up of
C - BYNUM
PF - J. ONEAL
SF - ARTEST
SG - KOBE
PG - FISHER
i THINK THAT STARTING 5 WOULD RIP ALL TEAMS NEXT YEAR!
Posted by: vincey | June 19, 2008 at 12:27 AM
It would be a massive mistake to change this team too much.The lakers did a great job getting top seed and getting through the west and at this point we've got to say that the experience gained, the return of Bynum ,and perhaps a tweak or two is enough to feel positive that we can win next season.
The lakers did a great job and collectively were clutch enough to come from behind to win the big games and get the top seed and win all the games they needed to throughout a tough western conference.Lamar frustrates me but he is good enough and has shown enough to stay...and as BK says is difficult to replace.Besides to change this team to that extent now would be madness
These laker players arent chokers they were just out of their depth.They definitely did well to be there and can continue to improve.Phils coaching did concern me but I think if the other team is better than you (and the cletics were better) then you are going to look bad and theres not much you can do....that is true as a player or a coach.
In the finals they simply came up against a better team and were not prepared for it...but should this opportunity come round next year they would be -and they may well have homecourt advantage and be hungrier than the celtics.
Ive always said that the lakers are an arrogant team....created in the image of their star player and coach...this is why they would lose to crappy teams all the time back in the average old days...but this is also why at those same teams could then beat the spurs at home or push a superior suns team to seven games.
The lakers believed their hype after the playoff success and they simply weren't prepared or used to being on the back foot in a playoff series...or the mental shift in not having home court.This experience in the finals is an important step in their development.Its concerning how they came apart but this team as it stands has definitely done enough to derserve another shot.
Posted by: Kiwi | June 19, 2008 at 04:01 AM
To BK & slightly less to MH,
re: Lamar and rebounding. You wrote: Well, he was the seventh leading rebounder in the league last season at 10.6 a night, so I'd say he has that part covered.
I would disagree. How did he do against the Rockets
during their 20 game run? How did he fair against the C's? His rebounding is weak/inconsistent against teams with good big men.
Maybe I'm saying this poorly. I'll try it this way: When
the Lakers lose there tends to be a lot of missed
rebounds. Odom has not come close to being
a dominant beast on the boards. That is what we need.
re: being a #3 with Gasol. What I meant by that was:
He didn't start busting his butt until Gasol showed up.
He's suspect in that his improved play only started once
Gasol was here.
Yes, Odom does bring positives to the table. No, *I*
haven't moved the bar on Odom. Yes, we could have
worse fits [Kwame]. However, we are *NOT*
beating the Celtics with Lamar at PF or SF. He's
out-matched by KG & Pierce. If Lamar hasn't been a
candidate for all-NBA defense by now he never will
be. If we are *truly* going to compete with the Celtics
we *MUST* become a better defensive team. Defense
is about hustle and heart. Lamar is not consistent in
either. *THAT* is why Phil keeps talking about a head
banger.
Posted by: hobbitmage | June 19, 2008 at 05:24 AM
*_________________________________*
Kambrothers thank for all you do for us
and making this Blog the best in the West
and getting 2 awards bandwagon
*______________________________*
(01) DAVE M. THANK YOU BOTH
(02) TOAD - They deserve some praise
(03) MAMBA24 - you guys are gods to me
(04) BOZZ – My hats off to you guys
(05) “PIG” MILLER – THANKS!
(06) JON K. FOR ALL YOU DO THANKS
(07) JANAYA – You guys are true to the Lakers
Posted by: mamba24 | June 19, 2008 at 05:26 AM
Benjamin,
"If Odom can't perform this next season well, particularly in the playoffs, I think we have to ship him."
If they are going to move Odom, the time to do it is now.
THe problem is that if they wait until after next season, Odom's contract is up, and he loses a lot of his trade value. He pretty clearly won't get the same kind of money he is making now, so a "sign-and-trade" will bring much less in return than trading his expiring contract now.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | June 19, 2008 at 06:02 AM
Congratulations Laker fans on a great season. Many of you are looking to add Ron Artest.
Is Artest the answer... Pierce hates playing against him and his D is great. He's a liability on offense and he is a huge FLAKE...i.e. wanting to take time off when he played for Indiana so he could promote his rap album. I doubt the strength of his play would offset the off court frustrations he would bring. He creates more problems then he solves.
Sorry guys, have to run, there's a parade I have to attend. See you in the 09 finals.
Posted by: banner17 | June 19, 2008 at 06:26 AM