Kelly Dwyer loses friends on this site, prompting a QOTD
Today, on the always entertaining Ball Don't Lie at Yahoo! (don't forget the ! or they'll come burn your house
down), Kelly Dwyer officially ticked off a lot of Lakers Blog readers. Why? He believes the MVP for the '07-'08 season should be LeBron James, not Kobe Bryant. I think he's wrong, and I also think that assuming he stays healthy and the Lakers don't suffer some sort of cosmic collapse- feel free to knock on wood- that 24 will win. But it brings up an issue that we'll all be discussing until the hardware is handed out. The perception among many is that too many media folk dislike Kobe to vote him as the MVP. I tend to think that's overblown. And in reading Dwyer's post, it's hard to argue that he doesn't acknowledge Kobe's greatness this season:
"Let's start with the obvious, a line of predictable reasoning that (for some reason) we need to be reminded of from time to time: Kobe Bryant is freakin' awesome...
...This year, the man has been fantastic, running one of the NBA's most devastating offenses while regaining the defensive edge that he appeared to have lost last season. He put on a brilliant performance on national TV yesterday, registering 52 points (30 in the fourth quarter and overtime alone) and 11 rebounds while carrying the Lakers offensively in a win over Dallas."
He goes on to list all sorts of statistical reasons as to why LBJ is more worthy than KB24, talks about the supporting casts, defense- Kobe gets the edge, there- and generally works through all the criteria people kick around when debating the would-be winner (although I think he glosses over/ignores how much better the Lakers have been in a tougher conference, and since team success is such a big part of the deal, that's a big omission). He comes to the conclusion that LeBron is the MVP.
And let's be clear- LeBron is, to use Dwyer's words about Kobe, "freakin' awesome." He is a force of nature,
and can control game in any number of ways. Is he perfect? No, but neither is Kobe. That's not the point. Anyone who tries to diminish the incredible level at which LeBron is playing, especially in an effort to pump up Kobe, is doing the same thing to LBJ that Kobe fans hate seen done to 24. They can both be amazing players. I just think Kobe's a better choice for MVP. Which brings me to the Question of the Day:
What is the difference between "biased" media, and media who simply have a different opinion?
I hate the term "hater." It's overused, and kinda stupid. That said, not everyone who decides to vote for another player this spring is a hater, blinded by anti-Kobe bias. I'd define "bias" as someone who believes at some level that Kobe deserves to be the MVP, but simply won't allow himself to vote for him because of a personal distaste for 24. Someone who will simply not open his mind to how well he's playing, and how impressively he's led the Lakers to a fairly shocking level of success this year. There are such people, but as I've written before, I think most writers take their vote entirely too seriously to not reward the player they feel is most worthy. Nor do I think writers won't vote for athletes they don't like on a personal level (see Bonds, Barry).
On the other hand, there are people who acknowledge all that is great about Bryant, but come to a different conclusion on who should win the MVP. Remember, the award is ludicrously subjective by nature. Virtually every criteria people use has more than one dimension. For every point, there's a counter-point, and no road map to the "right" decision. If someone looks at all the information with an open mind, and comes to a conclusion different from mine (or the opinions of most Lakers fans), is that bias? I'd say no. I'd say they're wrong, but not "anti-Kobe." Just as in this case, I think Dwyer's wrong, but hardly anti-Kobe.
Right now, I see three truly legit MVP candidates. Kobe, LeBron, and Chris Paul. Without getting bogged down in the merits of each- Lord knows that'll come soon enough- I'd say a vote for any of the three is legit. Bias is a hard thing to measure, especially when dealing with something in which someone must make a choice.
I'm just curious, as we enter MVP Season, to see what people think about this idea, even in a more abstract sense.
BK
Kobe for MVP...
Come on now.
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | March 03, 2008 at 05:32 PM
I am officially on the Jeff Van Gundy Bandwagon.
Knowledgable, insightful, humorous, and like Chick, tells it like it is.
His comment yesterday about the Memphis Grizzlies being the MVP had me rolling on the floor.
He outcoached Phil and Avery (which wasn't difficult)
Plus his commercial when he's suppose to be driving the bus, clinches it.
When Phil retires I want Jeff.
Posted by: YOU EVER NOTICE | March 03, 2008 at 05:42 PM
tbh, i kinda hope kobe doesn't win, so he'll have that chip on his shoulder during the entire playoffs.
just like how GS blogs said they were happy that all of the dubs got snubbed for the all star team.
Posted by: sukhyung | March 03, 2008 at 05:46 PM
BK - seriously????
Every argument they are now using AGAINST Kobe for MVP is the same one they have used FOR someone else in past year.
It's no contest - Kobe should win. If he doesn't, they should retire the award (and by retire, I mean trash it as meaningless).
The BEAN for MVP or NO PEACE.
Posted by: justanothermambafan | March 03, 2008 at 05:51 PM
Statistics are the easiest thing to compare, but do not give the whole story. Kobe brings more intangibles to his team, especially when one looks at the organic growth of the Lakers preceding the Gasol acquisition (and before Bynum was injured.) The Lakers were already much better than last year without Gasol. The record showed it. The Cavs weren't any better than last year with the same players. Kobe works to make the entire team better, even though he's not the guy patting the young players on the back on the sideline. LeBron is the guy that can do (just about) everything Kobe can do, but is working on stats and records at this point in his career. He was noticeably upset that Kobe earned the All-Star MVP in 2007. He decided to ensure he got it this year, and he is working toward the season scoring title. These are fantastic awards, but they don't make your team better. Kobe has proven he can win individual accolades if he wants, but he wants his team to win something bigger. The end result of this season will prove it.
Posted by: Chris | March 03, 2008 at 05:51 PM
Kobe is MVP, no question about it. LeBron is in the East, you can't compare the East to the WEst, last year if Cle veland in the West, could they make to the NBA Finals? Last weekend, Will Purdue, Jamal Mashburn, AJ Smith,Dr Jack Ramsey all said Kobe is the MVP.
Posted by: bluesky | March 03, 2008 at 05:52 PM
I think you're right, that bias IS a hard thing to measure. The truth is, though, that it subtly influences virtually every decision we make. A bias towards something is easier to measure, and more readily admitted, than a bias against something.
It seems that barring further injury, (and therefore catastrophe), the sentiment out there is that this is Kobe's time...it's just too hard to deny him this year.
Chris and LeBron will certainly have their times. Just not this year. It's almost as if a non-vote for Kobe is showing a bias against, and hopefully a lot of media will be reluctant to go there.
Denying him this year would be a MAJOR disappointment, way more so than any prior year. There's just not much more he can do.
Posted by: HappyCamper | March 03, 2008 at 05:52 PM
"WE AIN'T GOING TO LOSE TODAY!!!" ---Kobe emphatically telling his team mates in the huddle during yesterday's game against the Mavs...
Posted by: KobeByPau | March 03, 2008 at 05:56 PM
BK-
I think you make excellent points regarding the subtle difference between "Bias" and "Point of View".
The inherent problem I have with the debate at this time, is that LeBron is doing this year what Kobe has been doing the last three.
Fact of the matter remains that Smush (being paid by the worst team in the league NOT to play) and Kwame (bench player for Memphis) were taken to the playoffs in the deeper west by Kobe. He wasn't given the award, b/c while his individual play was great, while he was essential to the fiber of the team, they just weren't good enough.
It would be a seismic shift in MVP philosophy, although undefined-generally acknowledged, AND a slap in the face to give it to Lebron this year. To me, it would be validation of the "we just don't like you philosophy". And I think that's why Kelly Dwyer, and others experience this "hater" label when writing articles as such.
Even if it is just an opinion, it seems so inconsistent with what we have been told is required to be an MVP, one can't help but feel, even if unjustifiably, that reporters who take KD's line of thought are biased.
Posted by: Elyse | March 03, 2008 at 05:58 PM
The problem with Kelly Dwyer is he 'voted' for LeBron over Kobe couple years ago when Kobe carried a starting lineup of Luke, Kwame, Smush and Odom to the playoffs in the tough west.. now, his criteria seems to have changed. You can't change your criteria based on who you want to vote for.
Posted by: Lakerfan | March 03, 2008 at 06:00 PM
If Kobe and LeBron were Paul's size, who would you take? LeBron is a better passer. Everything else (pound for pound) goes to Kobe. That said (and at the risk of repeating myself) physical domination is rightly rewarded in the NBA, and LeBron is bigger and more explosive than Kobe, while still being very skilled.
However, the implication is always that LeBron's lesser teammates make him more important to his team than Kobe. I have argued in more detail in the previous thread that Kobe's just as important and his better teammates simply allow his team to win more games. This has always been the criteria for MVP voting.
Go Lakers!
Posted by: Cameron | March 03, 2008 at 06:00 PM
BK,
That was a really great piece of work regarding the MVP race. I have to agree with your comments regarding the difference between opinion and bias. I listen to a lot of different sportscasters, writers and analysts and some of them will say certain things about Kobe that leads one to look at them or perceive them as being bias or a Kobe hater even if they reluctantly say how good Kobe is. Although it seems that more of the media are choosing Kobe as the MVP up to this point, there are still those in the media that still feel the same about Kobe. I think he'll be the MVP unless as you said the Lakers have a monumental collapse. If Kobe continues playing at this high level and the Lakers continue to win, how would you feel and what would you write if Kobe isn't chosen as the MVP?
Posted by: Nemaia Faletogo | March 03, 2008 at 06:02 PM
BK,
What about people that don't realize it, but will make excuses to not vote for Kobe when there appears to be an acceptable alternative?
It's a subtle form of haterism, but I think it's very common in the sports world. In addition to there existing many unfair, dishonest people in the world (even if marginally dishonest), sports has a strong tendency to bring out our passion and emotion which also means it brings out our irrationality.
I don't think your post above adequately accounts for this phenomenon.
That said, I think Kobe is going to get it this season. A lot of the issues that others have had with him:
1. Too many bad shots
2. Not a good enough leader
3. Not nice, supportive, and encouraging to his teammates
4. Not playing as well at defense as he can
5. Not being on a good enough team
are just not the case now. People could feel they've helped encourage to become a complete team leader, not just one of the five best two-way players in the league and the most complete offensive player in the league.
People have run out of legitimate excuses. He's the best that I think any of us have ever seen him.
The one thing that really gets me about the article above is that it does say Kobe deserved the MVP in 05-06 which I think he did. I distrust the author because I feel they're engaging in the subtle haterism I describe. I seriously doubt that the author above supported Kobe as the MVP in 05-06. The reason I'm bothered by what the author says is that I feel it could be used as a pretext to defend the author from charges of haterism.
In this case I think the author is guilty of said charges based on how he presented his case, not based on the conclusion at which he arrived.
I think there is a way to legitimately make the case for Lebron, but the author clearly didn't do it fairly or rationally.
Let's face it, you don't have to be the smartest guy in school to get a sports writing contract. I do not mean that to insinuate sports writers are stupid, just that as a field, you can get away with a lot less powerful and well reasoned arguments as you could, say, in a scientific paper, even considering the more obviously subjective nature of sports versus science. And I will say I think you and AK do a fine job of being thorough, well -reasoned and honest.
I
Posted by: Benjamin | March 03, 2008 at 06:03 PM
The Lakers were ridiculed by everyone at the beginning of this season. Charles Barkley in particular gave them zero chance to even make the playoffs. But Kob has made them eat their words.
Even before Pau, he transformed this team into a real contender. In the games just before Pau (Detroit, etc.), they were clicking like a well-tuned clock. And of course, when Pau, did come aboard, they became an unstoppable offensive machine.
Add to all that that he is consistently the most feared closer in the game (last minute, double or triple-teamed, whateva), there is NOBODY that deserves the MVP more than Kobe.
No MVP, no peace!
Posted by: CornerJ | March 03, 2008 at 06:03 PM
I think there is a segment of the media that hates Kobe (see T.J. Simers) and a segment of the media that simply enjoys taking a contrarian view (see Skip Bayless), but I think those types are well in the minority.
I think the majority of the media makes an effort to be unbiased, though it's ultimately impossible to remain TOTALLY unbiased, because it's impossible as a human being. I believe that those who choose someone other than Kobe have legitimate reasons for doing so. I don't always agree with a guy like Adande who now says Kobe has too much talent on his team. Did playing with two all-stars and the 6th man of the year keep Steve Nash from winning the MVP? Did playing with some of the most stacked teams of all time keep Magic and Larry from winning a combined six MVPs? No.
If it didn't hurt them then it shouldn't hurt Kobe. Thankfully, it appears that most of the media isn't taking that view.
Posted by: Xodus | March 03, 2008 at 06:04 PM
Kobe Bryant should have won the MVP in 2005-2006. He averaged 35.4 PPG and was selected to the first team All-Defense. In that season, the Lakers finished 45-37. I cannot fathom how others were more "valuable" than Kobe that year. But, one of the main arguments was that Kobe did not play on an elite team.
This year, he is playing well on an elite team. LeBron James is not. The Cavs are "on pace" for about 46 or 47 wins this seasons.
As a matter of consistency, Kobe should win the MVP over LeBron because he plays on a team that is doing significantly better in a more difficult conference.
If you judge this season is in a vacuum, I'm not sure that the writer is wrong. Kobe is less valuable now than a few years ago because he plays with better teammates.
I don't particularly care how the MVP is chosen, as long as it chosen by the same criteria each year.
Posted by: j0v | March 03, 2008 at 06:05 PM
BK,
Excellent post. I think the part that really annoys me as well as other
Kobe supporters is the fact that media folks will move the target on
Kobe, whether on purpose or not, so that they can make their selection
more palatable.
For example, I was perfectly fine that someone else won the MVP the
last couple years even though I think Kobe deserved it because he wasn't
on a great team (even though he performed a Herculean task to get an inferior
team to the playoffs). If the criteria over the years has been that you have to
be on one of the best teams (top 4-6), then that's cool. That's the way it is.
The rules shouldn't change this year or any other year. Anyone who didn't
vote for Kobe the last two years (which I think was just about everybody
since, correct me if I'm wrong he didn't receive any, or very few, first place
votes) should not be voting for LeBron this year.
It is when some media types ignore those facts (Andande, Dwyer, etc.)
that Kobe supporters get upset and claim that there is bias against him.
With that said, I certainly can see how you can argue for either James or CP3
being the MVP this season (they're both playing extremely well), but NOT if
you're applying the same rules that eliminated Kobe from contention the last
two seasons. It's like officiating, I just like to see consistency.
Posted by: Bzar | March 03, 2008 at 06:05 PM
Tim 4 Show,
Your relative and my friend are probably acquainted. Hopefully they never made any Nevada babies.
Sonnybelfast
Posted by: sonnybelfast | March 03, 2008 at 06:11 PM
Bzar,
Consistency is nice and you're absolutely right. The reasons Kobe didn't get the MVP are exactly the same reasons that make him such a strong candidate for it this year.
I'm with everyone else.
No MVP, No Peace!
Posted by: Benjamin | March 03, 2008 at 06:16 PM
BK,
I think the term "hater" gets thrown around because the writers who think someone else should win the MVP this year change their argument to fit their choice. Kelly Dwyer is the perfect example. Adande changes his mind week to week and switches his criteria accordingly. The only explanation is bias.
It is Kobe's year. He has "waited his turn" as ordained by the powers that be. The MVP is a political award. Otherwise, explain how anyone else could have won while MJ was in the league? Karl Malone over Michael? It's a reputation award and even LeBron says Kobe is the best in the league. The writers should listen to LBJ, who will win a few of them before he is done.
Posted by: DrewPauKobe | March 03, 2008 at 06:17 PM
The biggest thing keeping LeBron FROM winning the MVP is Kobe... and by that, I don't mean the success of the Lakers or Kobe's season..
I mean, their own snubbing of Kobe in the past.
How is it that Steve Nash has two of those things and Dirk has one... and Kobe has none.
That's the outrage. It's the outrage that has finally hit most of the announcers upside the head... it's the outrage that, frankly, the voters will be fully aware of when the time comes.
You give LeBron the MVP, that's great. He deserves it... but then, next year when Kobe has yet another MVP year, the outrage will continue.
The bias will be exposed.
The award will be MEANINGLESS (and, it's pretty much already there)....
LeBron, as deserving as he is, cannot get it simply because Kobe has dominated for so long and still does not have one.
When push comes to shove, that is why neither LeBron NOR Chris Paul will actually get it...
they're out of excuses.
Mark my words, LeBron will get it next year... they will go right back to hating after they give Kobe a token MVP.
And yes BK, there are haters. A hater is different than bias. Bias just means you have a preference. Hater means that you go out of your way to point out flaws while wildly ignoring the positives.
KL was a hater. He wasn't biased. "Hate" not as in hate crime, that's a different use... player hater, a guy who just sees the negative, it makes them feel better about themselves.
There's no way you can tell me there's not some haters with an MVP vote. There has to be at least one or two... and the bias is certainly there, but they have a conundrum that they never thought of 3 years ago when they started handing these things out to players who, in all honesty, didn't really earn them... they're running out of excuses.
Posted by: Tim-4-Show | March 03, 2008 at 06:18 PM
AK/BK,
Does Dwyer get to vote?
It's humorous to watch Dwyer argue that individual stats are all of a sudden the main factor in MVP discussions. How convenient. Unfortunately, I think Dwyer greatly diminishes the importance of team performance (a huge factor in Nash's two MVPs).
It's inevitable that many of Kobe's fans and supporters will balk at an article like Dwyer's. Above all the chatter, I believe Kobe will continue to play his effective, team-oriented game. And there will be no denying the wise and patient heart of a worthy MVP.
Posted by: DK | March 03, 2008 at 06:19 PM
Xodus-
You're right about the inability to make a totally unbiased/impartial/objective choice (a lot of this is semantics), because you're specifically asked to deliver an opinion. This isn't science, so a decision has to be made. I think it's the place voters come from in making it that's important.
And as other posters have noted, that moving target thing, whether for Kobe or not, isn't fair.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | March 03, 2008 at 06:21 PM
Off-Topic
Anyone know what the hell that thing is on Jamaal Crawford's shoulder?
Jeff Van Gundy may go down as the greatest announcer in NBA history. Just awesome.
Posted by: Benjamin | March 03, 2008 at 06:21 PM
Perhaps, the best description of the sports journalists today is the story of the blind person who was cured by a miracle. He said: "Once upon a time, I was blind now I can see."
Come to think of it, Kobe should earned have the title of MVP when he carried behind his backs our former players: Smush-Kwame-Cookie and he brought them to two consecutive playoffs. Today, Kobe's ratings is riding high with Gasol-Farmar-Bynum. Unfortunately, the biased East Coast media, the mecca of opinions did not watch Lakers games before when they were 7th or 8th seed. Now they do as a result of the gazillion trade that followed Pau to the Lakers that resulted to series of victories. As if they take the cue from the AP news, these sports journalists and sportscasters are all in chorus like a bunch of monkeys saying: "Me-Too" think he is a MVP.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | March 03, 2008 at 06:23 PM
I remember reading somewhere that "the MVP really makes his teammates better". I think that's a great statement. Nash was the prime example of this and I think Nowitzki really inspired the Mavs the year he won.
At the start of the season, the Lakers supporting cast looked no better than Cleveland's. They were much younger and inexperienced, while Cleveland now had a team that had been all the way to the NBA finals. Now, look at the situation. Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, and the recent emergence of Farmar / Sasha / Ronny? I'd take the Laker's supporting cast over Cleveland's any day of the week. This is ALL because of Kobe. None of these players would have emerged like they did on any other team in my opinion. Gasol is an exception because he was already a star, but he is playing real well alongside Kobe so far with a few exceptions. Kobe's passion and team oriented play this season have brought the Lakers to where they are.
Now look at Lebron's team. Here's a team that he carried all the way to the NBA finals last year. He's shown them that they are contenders and a powerful force, yet they still have a relatively weak record. Lebron's teammates have not become better with his addition. If anything, they have become weaker. They rely on him to consistently put up 30 a night. Gibson, Ilgauskas, [gooden and hughes], all are players that didn't really step up to the plate with Lebron maybe because there wasn't room for them. I think Varajao is the only player I've seen really feed off Lebron's energy. Lebron has great stats, but he has not taken his whole team on his shoulders and developed them like Kobe Bryant has. This makes a lot of sense. Four or Five years ago, Kobe wouldn't have been able to do that either. I fully expect Lebron to be in a similar situation to Kobe by the time he is Kobe's age if not sooner.
People take the definition of most "valuable" player too strictly. If valuable were to be taken literally, then KG would just win it every year because he makes the most money. Sure, Lebron's team can't win a game to save their life without him, but I bet Kobe's team could because of how far he's brought them and what he's inspired inside them this season.
Posted by: Justin N | March 03, 2008 at 06:24 PM
Is Dirk Dirty?
Yesterday he tries to take Fishes head off
tonight he takes out Kirelenko
Posted by: YOU EVER NOTICE | March 03, 2008 at 06:25 PM
As the Brits would say, this another clear case of moving the goalposts. You show bias when you try to fit the facts to your conclusion, rather than the other way around.
You're clearly biased, or in other words, predisposed to a particular conclusion when you change the way you interpret the "facts", or your argument using statistics as your "evidence," to come to to the conclusion of your choice.
As other readers and bloggers have pointed out, when Kobe played with lesser players and ergo a "worse" team, he couldn't make them win the championship so he wasn't the MVP.
Now he plays with better players ergo on a better team, he is less "valuable"?
Statistics should count some, but in the end because the three players under discussion, play different positions, on different teams, with different coaches, the so-called "intangibles" should count for more. Who has the best chance of helping his team win a championship is my deciding factor.
Posted by: Glenn | March 03, 2008 at 06:26 PM
DrewPauKobe,
"He has "waited his turn" as ordained by the powers that be."
Not only do I agree with you, but he had paid his dues long before as well. Contrast that with a player who got the MVP the year Kobe put up insane numbers with a supporting cast of: Luke, Smush, Kwame, and Cook... I can't remember who got the award that year, but I'm pretty sure they had not been a perennial MVP candidate year in and year out the way Kobe was from 2001-2006.
In fact, I'd put my money on it. Show me that alledged most valuable guy from 05-06, and look at his career stats to that point, look to see that they actually made a finals appearance (every MVP in history besides Garnett and some dude in Phoenix have made it to the finals)... just tell me that guy had paid his dues.
I'm not necessarily saying a guy should pay their dues first, but in a way, YES. There's so many deserving players, and if you don't make them pay their dues (such a Chris Paul), you might wind up with egg on your face because you gave some "good" player an award that is reserved for one of the all-time greats. An MVP award is a shoo-in to the Hall of Fame, and therefore, you must ask yourself if the person is a hall of famer before giving them that award.
LeBron = yes.
Paul = no, not yet.
The last three winners = I don't think so, legitimately, I just don't think they make it in without the free pass (MVP hardware). At least last year's guy actually went to the finals though, but still, has his career been THAT spectacular?
Posted by: Tim-4-Show | March 03, 2008 at 06:34 PM
YOU EVER NOTICE,
I have been a Jeff Van Gundy fan for a long time. I was living in NYC during his Knick years and he was a fantastic coach and hilarious in interviews. He's also a certified genius which is pretty funny.
In early 2002, after he had just left the Knicks, I was walking down the boardwalk in Venice Beach. JVG rode past me on a rental bike and I quickly yelled out Jeff!!! He stopped and turned around and I was already next to him and engaged him in a talk about the Knicks, Lakers, etc. He talked for like 10 minutes about the NBA and coaching in general and then about just LA and what he was going to do then. "Just relax for the first time in like 20 years" or something like that. He was a really nice guy and a total straight shooter.
I tell the story because maybe that's ALL IT TAKES TO BE A GOOD COLOR GUY.
- Know what you're talking about
- Be a nice, easy going guy
- Tell it like it is without letting too much of your personal bias sink in
It seems like an easy formula, but there are so few who actually do it.
Hubie Brown
JVG
Other nominations?
Yes, he would be great when Phil retires.
Posted by: DrewPauKobe | March 03, 2008 at 06:36 PM
The one reassuring thing about all the MVP articles (pro- or anti-Kobe) is that they all fit the format of Kobe vs ____. The blank can be filled with your choice of LB, CP or KG -- take your pick.
It's good to see that Kobe is considered among the top two contenders in just about every discussion. Now it's simply up to Kobe to finish out this MVP race in the same way he finishes out games.
Posted by: DK | March 03, 2008 at 06:39 PM
Meida bias?
Absolutely. Always and everywhere. They're influenced by their wives, girlfriends, kids, dogs, friends, other media, player interviews that did or didn't go well, lack of money, lack of hits, lack of magazine sales, book deals, editors, their age, physical prowess, sex life, church, shrink, spiritual advisor, fans and bloggers everywhere.
So Kobe will be MVP 'cause just like the Oscars, it's his turn.
Posted by: Vman | March 03, 2008 at 06:39 PM
Good question, BK.....
My take is that most members of the media fall into the latter category of simply having a different opinion and that's fine. I can definitely remember 2 certain writers/blog hosts who posted very unpopular opinions on this blog about MVPs and other subjects. Their comments and opinions were respected because they had no agenda other than to promote discussion here.
"Biased" media is often harder to detect. It is sometimes blatant as in the case of a Skip Bayless, who simply hates Kobe and cannot get past Colorado. JA Adande has a subtle type of bias where he grudgingly acknowledges Kobe's greatness, but has a shifting set of criteria when it comes to defining and naming an MVP, with Kobe always falling short somehow.
A person's sense of values and life experience determines how he reacts to media input on any subject. Right or wrong it's the only way people can form any opinion or make any choice. One always has to consider the source and why said source may be promoting a particular point of view. I guess in the long run, it boils down to common sense and trusting your own judgement.
Posted by: bronxlakerfan | March 03, 2008 at 06:39 PM
Benjamin,
If you listened to the previous game broadcast when Lakers played, Jeff Van Gundy was an anti-Laker and anti-Kobe. it was Mark Jackson and Kenny Smith who had faith on Kobe from Day One. Can we enumerate as anti-Kobe now they are all now in unison of pro-Kobe and loving it?
That's OK, change always happens and repentance comes at the last. The only thing I'm saying those who changed positions should BE HONEST in admitting that they changed positions. May I name a few: Joe MacDonald, that greek on PMS, Charles Barkley, Bill Plaschke (at least he admitted on his Saturday artilcle....and many more you are familiar with their positions in the past.)
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | March 03, 2008 at 06:41 PM
Knowing that it is a subjective award, I still feel there needs to be some level of consistency. Or at least there should be.
The criteria may be varied and multifaceted, but the reasoning for the choice cannot change year to year. If it does THIS is how anti-(insert players name here) bias talk starts.
So if Nash is the choice two years running and Dirk follows him up for pretty much being outstanding on a marvelous and high achieving regular season team, that profile cannot be abandoned the next year for statistical greatness the next year (Dwyer's perspective would have McGrady winning two MVP's with Orlando).
It FEELS anti-kobe if he doesn't win because Lebron's only doing what Kobe has been told wasn't good enough. I'm not OK with that--because its not consistent. Its like a referee, as an athlete and a coach, all you really ask for is consistency from the zebras. A consistent ref is a good ref regardless of how they call the game.
What I am OK with is the arguments for Nash and Dirk the past years and against Kobe. And I think Kobe would be too: He isn't considered because his team simply didn't win enough. I disagree in 03 and 06, but I understand.
I would like to see consistency in who the MVP is. If that means 50+ wins, impact on both ends of the court, etc etc. whatever thats fine with me. It becomes infuriating to the point of relegating the award to near irrelevance if each year the award is drastically changed to the more convenient choice (convenient meaning the media darling, more hyped, more endorsed more pushed product--kinda like lebron winning the All star MVP when everybody including him knew it was Allen's hardware).
I think Kobe deserves the MVP for consistency's sake. His TEAM is doing amazing things and he is excelling to get them there (see dirk, nash, duncan etc).
Posted by: jandro | March 03, 2008 at 06:44 PM
Last year the criteria was "the best player on the best team," and the two years before it was "the player who means the most to his team." The MVP award is another ludicrous dog and pony show that the media uses to assert its greater power over the sports world. Kobe is widely regarded as the best player in the NBA. He is as well the most valuable to his team. Kobe Bryant is the MVP of the NBA when all bias is removed, hence the Dwyer article is biased. Let the players vote on who the MVP is. Kobe Bryant would win every year until his game declines or another becomes the best.
Pig
Posted by: "Pig" Miller | March 03, 2008 at 06:47 PM
I sure hope Bynum is injecting Sea Minerals daily..
Bynum is the Golden Key to the Championship.
No Bynum No Championship...it's as simple as that.
Kobe thanks for taking the Lakers on your back and carrying them to a victory. That was a great MVP performance considering nobody else showed up.
To save airfare the Lakers should just send Kobe to Sactown and let everyone else sleep in and rest. It is clear they need it.
Go Lakers and Get Well Bynum. LakerNation needs you!
BD
Posted by: BD | March 03, 2008 at 06:50 PM
Justin,
You make a great point. It could be argued that LeBron makes his teammates worse since they generally perform below career average with him, especially guards. Eric Snow, Larry Hughes, Damon Jones - check their stats. They all had dips in production playing with LeBron versus previous years.
Of course there can be a lot of factors here, but who says LeBron makes his teammates better?? Isn't that the criteria we've been hearing for years?? I don't see Kwame, Smush, Cook or George among others starting anywhere else...
SAY IT LOUD AND SAY IT PROUD!!!!
KOBE FOR MVP!!!
KOBE FOR MVP!!!
KOBE FOR MVP!!!
Posted by: DrewPauKobe | March 03, 2008 at 06:51 PM
From a marketing standpoint, Kobe is the clear choice.
Everywhere the Lakers go, we hear MVP!
If they were smart, the NBA would build off of this and go with Kobe. Believe me, Kobe is MR. International, Mr. 81, and the world loves Kobe. And that's what the NBA wants, world domination, and Kobe will help the NBA get there.
Stern needs to get over his Kobe misgivings and let Kobe get his due rewards.
Trust me people, its not the media, its not the 125 chosen ones by the NBA that decide. Its Mr. Stern, the God Father of the NBA. Convince Don David Stern, and Kobe will win.
Hi, I'm Faith and I approve this conspiracy theory.
Posted by: AN 1 | March 03, 2008 at 06:53 PM
"Luke, Kwame, Smush and Odom to the playoffs"
How can this starting four go to the playoffs, two years in a row? I mean really look at those four. Two, not playing NBA games anymore, you could argue if Luke Walton is in another team, he probably won't get minutes either. Lamar Odom has been very inconsistent and injured the last three years and this is the Western Conference.
How do they think the Lakers got there with three starters being scrubbs and 1 is an average inconsistent player? duh!
Kobe has been the best player in the World the last five years. MVP is just second best player in the World, Lebron is not even third probably a distant fifth.
1st- Kobe (Assasin)
2nd-Kobe (facilitator)
3rd- Garnett
4th- Chris Paul
5th Lebron James
The second best player to Kobe is Kobe Bryant.
Posted by: Staples 24 | March 03, 2008 at 06:53 PM
BK,
Sorry, Brian, but I think the entire thread is a lousy topic. You might as well ask who we think it the greatest player in the league right now. The problem is this is a topic that we have all talked to death for three years now. Nobody is going to change their opinion as a result of the thread. In fact, you could easily predict exactly what each blogger was going to say. The only controversy is that you just give another easy forum for the Kobe critics to spout their 2008 rules for MVP and figure out how to dis Kobe. IMHO, it is threads like this that make Laker fans wonder whether you’re a Kobe fan or a reporter. And yes, I did see where you said you disagreed with Kelley.
On top of all of this, none of us – Kobe included – care one bit about whether Kobe wins this year’s MVP or any other awards. Like Kobe says, I am here to win a championship. Let’s talk about what impact Drew will have, how Pau and Drew will play together, whether Fish needs to come off the bench, how well Luke Walton has been playing, what great defense Lamar showed on Sunday. Anything but more pointless and never ending arguments about Kobe versus Lamar or Kobe versus MJ. Let’s try some subjects where we don’t already know what everybody thinks. Just a suggestion. You know I think you guys and the blog are great. I just expect more from you than this rehash thread.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | March 03, 2008 at 06:58 PM
I have another problem with this whole Bron-Kobe debate.
People talk about how clutch Lebron has been. They also talk about Kobe being clutch, but not as clutch as Lebron because he has fewer 4th quarter points.
Obviously, Kobe got it done earlier in the game so he doesn't play a ton in 4th quarters. Against better competition. That he is second in 4th quarter scoring shows that he's still super clutch when his team needs him and not just super ball dominant. Lebron has been clutch, but if you're going to compare the two, you have to consider all contributors to the numbers.
Posted by: Benjamin | March 03, 2008 at 07:01 PM
CHANGE THE MVP AWARD TO THE PLAYER OF THE YEAR…
It is interesting that the NBA doles out player of the week and month awards for both the Western and Eastern Conferences. Then, when reaching the point where everybody is expecting to find out who wins “Player of the Year,” the NBA changes the contest to this stupid and undefined “Most Valuable Player” award.
The MVP award needs to become the Player of the Year award just like the NBA needs to seed for the best 16 teams regardless of conference to improve the playoffs. Will either happen? Not while Stern is commissioner and the East Coast owns the media. While AK and BK can claim there is no media bias against Kobe, I would like to hear them argue that there is no media bias against the West Coast. LOL.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | March 03, 2008 at 07:04 PM
Laker Tom-
The point wasn't to have an MVP debate, but to talk about how the award is given out. People complain a lot on this site about bias. So I was asking what constitutes a "bias" towards/against a player? What's the difference between that and a difference of opinion. Sorry if you don't like the question, but I'd say there are others on the site who do and find the subject interesting.
As for the notion that nobody cares if Kobe wins the MVP... are you insane? Kobe may not care (though I certainly think he'd like to win, just not more than winning a ring), but plenty of other people do.
"IMHO, it is threads like this that make Laker fans wonder whether you’re a Kobe fan or a reporter. And yes, I did see where you said you disagreed with Kelley."
I'm confused by your meaning. It should be clear by now that I consider myself a journalist before a fan of any particular player, at least as it comes to analysis, evaluations, etc. I'm not a cheerleader. So if that's how you define it, yes, I'm a reporter, not a Kobe fan.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | March 03, 2008 at 07:04 PM
First off, the league MVP shouldn't be selected until after all games, including playoffs are played. What happens if the Warriors take it all the way? Do Baron or Ellis then deserve consideration? Or if Ginobli or Duncan go on a tear and cruise to another championship? Should they get any love? There is too much ball left to be played.
It's one of the strongest fields I can recall in recent memory; Paul, Garnet, Kobe, Lebron and other candidates who deserve mention. Among the top four, a case could persuasively be argued by fans from respective teams for each one of these players. Put Laker Tom on that.
And no Tom, if Kobe wins Most Valuable Player this year, he will have earned it; something he hasn't done hitherto. I have no problem with that, and whatever your team ends up doing for the year has no bearing on my appreciation for the Sacramento Kings of Basketball. I like it when they play well, and like it even better when they win. Mostly I just enjoy. That's why it is there; for me to enjoy. I am not some vacillating infirm driven by an obssession with "winning it all". That constipates people, as you know, and Jorenema is nowhere in sight.
Sonnybelfast
Posted by: sonnybelfast | March 03, 2008 at 07:05 PM
"Pig" Miller
I totally agree. Why not let the players vote??
Or a combination of players/GM's/Head coaches.
Each GM's gets one vote (each team represented).
Each Head coach gets one vote.
Each player tenured in the league more than 3 years gets one vote.
Or at all above positions you could weight the votes according to tenure in the NBA. ex: popovich's vote counts a bit more than Stan VanGundy or Garnett's vote counts more than Crittentons.
Or not.
Just anybody but the writers. I think BBall people should decide.
Or here's a crazy idea. Let the hall of famers vote. Just spitballing here.
Or they could just ask me and I'll tell them each year who clearly should win (I obviously have absolutely no bias and would make the correct decision every single year).
Yeah lets go with me.
Posted by: jandro | March 03, 2008 at 07:08 PM
Tom-
In my humble opinion? Hmm...maybe not so humble. I am sorry, but I would not like you to speak for me. Is winning a championship the most important thing? Absolutely! Would I also like to see kobe win MVP? Yeah, sure. What's the point of having an award if you don't feel the right person is winning it.
Furthermore, while this has deviated slightly into a does kobe deserve MVP topic, the issue that BK raised about the difference in Bias and Opinion is an interesting one to me. It made me conceptualize how I interpret authors and what gives rise to my feelings of a "well thought out article that I happen to disagree with" compared to an article I feel is unjust or unfairly considers the facts.
Posted by: Elyse | March 03, 2008 at 07:08 PM
LeBron is definetly in the discussion. But the thing is that kobe was in the exact same position the last two years (best numbers in the game on a not very good team) and got little consideration. So kobe is doing what steve nash and dirk did during the mvp years(best player on one of the best teams). I don't agree with that, but if it stays the same, kobe should be the mvp according to the past.
Posted by: greek dude | March 03, 2008 at 07:08 PM
BK,
The moving target thing is definitely unfair to anyone including Kobe. I understood why Kobe didn't win the MVP each of the last two seasons because the Lakers simply didn't win enough games. And honestly if I had a vote I can't say with 100% certainty that I'd have voted for Kobe. I think I may have in the 05-06 season, but not last season.
I do find it annoying that everyone is making a big deal about having one of the most impressive seasons in modern NBA history and say that he should win the MVP because of it. But when Kobe carries a team that would win 15-20 games w/o him in 2006 in the western conference, he can't get by Nash who had one of the best teams in the league. Where's the consistency?
I think the NBA MVP is less definable than that of any other sport. The NFL MVP goes to the QB or RB, who puts up the greatest offensive numbers for a playoff team. The MLB MVP goes to the guys who put up the best offensive numbers despite their win/loss records (A-Rod won the MVP on a horrendous team a couple years back) or if they make the playoffs (Ryan Howard in 2006).
In the NBA there's an argument for the best player on (who is believed to be) the best team, the best story (Nash in 04-05 and KG if he wins it this season), the best player in the NBA (Kobe would have two or three if this were the case) or the guy who's believed to make his teammates better (Nash in 04-05 and 05-06). There's no identifiable criteria for a league MVP. And no offense to Dirk and Nash, who I think are both very good players, but this has resulted in our last 3 league MVPs not being able to carry the jocks of any of the previous MVPs.
Posted by: Xodus | March 03, 2008 at 07:13 PM
Kwame, Smush, Walton, Odom, James as starting five will not reach the playoffs. LOTTERY!
Kwame, Smush, Walton, Nash and Doom won't make it to the playoffs either! bottom of the conference!
Kwame, Smush, Walton, Odom, Nowitzki = Lottery!
Nash, Dirk, Lebron not making to the playoffs with these scrubbs, MVP voting is totally screwed!!
Best player in the game is were the real RESPECT from every basketball world not the MVP.
Until Kobe Bryant is not the MVP, the NBA MVP is for total idiots.
NASH AND DIRK as DALLAS MAVS, two NBA MVP's the last three years were together in the same team never reach the WEST FINALS and MAVS was considered a SOFT TEAM that can't win Champiosnhips. SOFT TEAM Nash and Dirk, has 2 MVP in three years??? HAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHA! What a BIG JOKE!!!
Posted by: Staples 24 | March 03, 2008 at 07:14 PM