wondahbap - that I was missed was a joke,

you picked one instance of Kobe defending Kwame, which every other laker did too so thats nothing unique to being a leader or good teammate.

Ive gone on record as saying Kobe is a better leader and teammate this year, that prior years.

Ive also seen LBJ consoling his teammates after a playoff loss , encouraging them to keep shooting and taking the pressure off his teammates. After last season- first thing he said is he needs to get better and improve. Not "i need better teammates" , "ship his ass out" "the boss is an idiot".

As ive said I have never once seen Kobe or Phil take the responsibility publically for a loss, only credit when the team wins. Example after the loss to Sac, Kobes excuse for not making the winning shot "its an old play and teams are used to it" something to that effect. I want my leader to say its my job to make that shot, I missed it and take responsiblty not blame the coach for the play call. A similar situation happened after the Detroit loss- Kobe yelling at Phil because the last shot was taken by Odom.

Do you think Kobes constant complaining to the refs is an example of good leadership?

wondahbap,

or I just simply am not ignorant and I recognize when a certain player is the best baller in the league.

wondahbap,

or maybe I am playing devil's advocate?

Tonight the Lakers start the gauntlet.

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, the hardest Laker
road trip since 1973!!!

At the start, they have leads of 1, 1, and 1 1/2 games over their
closest 3 competitors, and 2 1/2 games over the Suns in the Pacific. And every team they're playing is within 3 1/2 games of
them.

So where will they be at the end of the trip? Or in other words,
where will they be one week from today?

During that week, here's who the other teams at the top face:

--------------------------------------------------

Houston: currently 1 game behind
Charlotte, Lakers, Celtics, @New Orleans

So either Houston or New Orleans MUST lose 1/2 game to the
Lakers this week, since they face each other. The Boston game
is in Houston, so the way the Rockets have been playing lately,
I'd give it 50-50 odds. Charlotte is the only easy game for them.

----------------------------------------------------

San Antoinio: currently 1 game behind
@Detroit, @Philadelphia, Boston, @Chicago

Another hard lineup. And note that San Antonio are only 17-15
on the road. It's possible they could beat Boston and lose 2 of
the other 3. I don't see them making it through those 4 games
without a loss.

------------------------------------------------------

New Orleans: currently 1 1/2 games behind
Lakers, @Detroit, Chicago, Houston

No real cupcakes there, though Chicago in New Orleans should
be a pretty easy victory.

-----------------------------------------------------

Phoenix: currently 2 1/2 games behind
Sacramento, @Portland, @Seattle, Houston

This is a bit softer schedule than the other teams. Suns vs
Rockets will be pure offense vs. pure defense. Portland is
a LOT better in Portland, Sacramento aren't mailing in games
(as the Lakers recently saw). They could go 4-0, but I wouldn't
bet on it the way they've been playing lately.

----------------------------------------------

Utah: currently 3 games behind
@Boston, @New Jersey, Toronto, Lakers

With how bad Utah has played on the road this season, the
Boston game tonight is almost a guaranteed loss, and Jersey
with one of the few PGs who can defend Deron Williams on a
back-to-back might be a loss as well. If Utah loses any one of
these games, the Lakers could go 0-4 and still be ahead of
them in the West, and I think they'll loose at least 2 (Boston
and the Lakers)

-------------------------------------------------------

Dallas: currently 3 1/2 games back
Indiana, @Miami, Lakers, Boston

Two cupcakes to start the week off, and the top teams from each
Conference to finish the week. But the games against the
Lakers and Celtics are in Dallas, where they are 28-4. All it
will take is one loss by the Mavs to keep the Lakers ahead of
them. Hopefully the Lakers can take care of that themselves.

------------------------------------

Conclusions -

If the Lakers go 3-1 or better, I think they will hold first place
and they will make a lot of teams verrrrry nervous about having
to face them in the playoffs.

If the Lakers go 2-2 or 1-3, they will stay in the top 4, but fall
out of first place. A single victory by the Lakers on the trip
means that Phoenix would have to sweep their 4 games to
pass the Lakers in the Pacific. So if the Lakers win 1 and
Phoenix loses 1 in the next week, the Lakers stay in the top 4. Actually the top 3, since a win would also make it impossible
for Utah to pass the Lakers

If the Lakers go 0-4, then we will get a non-stop barrage from
Gunner and Laker "Lover" about how it's all Kobe's fault and
that he's a terrible player and we should trade him for Ricky
Davis or some crap like that. And the Lakers would end the
week in 6th place.

But note that even if the Lakers go 0-4, their stay in 6th place
would be short lived. The week AFTER next, Lakers play a
softer schedule, while Phoenix plays Houston, @Detroit, @Boston.
So even if the Lakers are out of the top 4 next Friday (which I
seriously doubt), they would be back in the top seeds by next
Sunday.

My prediction: 2-2 for the road trip and #2 in the West one week
from today.

The best point guard:

http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/784312.html

Sonnybelfast

"My point wasn't that Magic was AS big a defensive liability as Nash. I just said he wasn’t really known as a particularly great defender"

This is all about shades/degrees, and my point is Nash defensively is on the 0 scale. Put another way I think Nash is as bad defensively as Kwame brown is offensively, perharps even worse. The fact that Magic/Dirk are not the best defenders out there does not change the fact that Nash should not have qualified simply because he's so terrible defensively. Similar to the way folks would go Kobe doesn't deserve it cuz his leadership skills are terrible etc (not that i agree with that). So point being where weren't there more articles out there slamming Nash for his defensive liabilities, particularly because they're so woefull. Dirk/Pau still do a number of good things on the defensive end such as rebounding and blocking shots but I wouldn't call them garbage defensively which applies to Nash, he should have been called out for it.

"In ’04-’05, he was 1st in assists and apg, 6th in 3pt % and Ft%, 8th in true shooting %, plus 15.5 ppg and 3 rebounds (solid for a PG). In ‘05-’06, he led the league in assists, apg, FT% and true shooting percentage, was 6th in 3pt %, plus 19ppg and 4 boards (very good by PG standards). Are they historic numbers? I don’t know, but they also don’t need to be historic to win. "

To overcome the egg he lays on the defensive end on a nightly basis I think it his offensive numbers need to be beyond historic. Dirk was a monster offensively in the series against san antonio and his presence on the boards helped them defensively. However if Dirk's man killed him and he did nothing to help the team defensively I'd call him garbage as well. While I don't agree with the decision for Dirk as mvp last year, I considered him a reasonable candidate. The soft dirk prior to the general taking over would have been a no no.

"Finally, if you need an example of why I think "hater" has become an overused cliche by now, your post would qualify. You're accusing me of being a "hater" (of Kobe, I assume) with my explanations regarding Nash"

Dude you keep missing the point, I'm not flinging hater at you because of your elaborations of nash or past posts even. You called out kobe lovers and I in turn am calling out the press in general (it's on that basis that i'm calling you out, i.e. you're the press in general in this contex just as i'm speaking for kobe lovers in general). And in general most of the media coverage arguing why Kobe shouldn't be the mvp in the past few years is not based on legit reasons but hateration crap (like oh he a bad leader, forgetting he's the one encouraging smush, farmar etc in practice ... hell even our boy butler in washington credits kobe for improving his work ethic ... those are leadership qualities the press chose to overlook, hence hater alert)

Still since you're so insistent on me calling you out personally, I'll go as someone close to the laker heartbeat, it sure would have been nice to see you lobbying for our boy kobe and tearing nash down on his HUGE (like the grand canyon, i.e. pls dont try to argue for him via other mediocre defenders cuz nash is beyond mediocre) defensive liabliities.

"If you honestly think he had no business whatsoever winning, fine. I think that's ridiculous, but we're clearly never gonna find any middle ground, so it's a waste of time to keep talking about it. "

That's something we can definately agree on. Like i said I don't give 2 about the mvp award. I've asked jon k a few times to sign his posts no championship=no peace instead of his no mvp=no peace signatiue. The way mvp voting has been carried on lately I just think the award has lost credibility. Why would I want to tout anyone as a 2 time mvp winner when my barber will simply go "umm so is nash, so that doesn't prove your dude aint garbage". The MVP award should mean something.

Taliq,

There are several reasons why Kobe isn't hailed the same way Michael Jordan is. The first reason is that MJ was the first of his kind. Yes Elgin Baylor and Dr. J were great high fliers in their own right but no one brought the same combination of swagger, killer instinct, acrobatics and defensive skill until MJ (and Kobe today).

And while Magic and Larry saved the NBA and brought it to the national consciousness, MJ made it a global league in the 90s. And while his Bulls teams weren't as strong from top to bottom as the 80's Lakers and Celts, he still dominated his era more than any other player since Bill Russell.

If Kobe had been born in 1963 and been drafted by the Bulls he may have very well been the guy we eulogize. Jordan had to deal with the same doubters or "haters" who said he was too selfish and didn't make his teammates better. Then he started winning titles and everyone shut the hell up. If Kobe wins the MVP this season and we're also able to win the title this year, I expect that we'll never hear those questions again.

As for AK/BK, I don't think they go through phases of Kobe hatred. They're just not Kobe cheerleaders. They seem to genuinely enjoy watching him play and give him props when they're due and call him out when he plays poorly (which has been very little this season).

wondahbap,

or maybe I am playing devil's advocate?

Look Lonely, Angrry Laker- I didnt realize I was missed on the blog. I have never said Kobe was a ballhog, if you take time to read my posts, and not try to put words in my mouth, I said Kobe is not a great leader and a selfish player at times during games. Shot selection is what I look at not # of shots taken.

As for Lebron, I stand by what I said I think he is a better teammate, leader and over-all player than Kobe this season . Kobe is a great individual player too but I take Lebron over Kobe, and even Duncan and Nash for that matter as more valuable to their teams. I appreciate greatness regardless of what team the player is on.

I am a laker fan, not a kobe fan. Dont confuse the two.

and the laker lover name is the name i picked to describe laker fans who have little or no objectivity - aka laker lovers. AK and Troll Man have described the phenomena- laker and kobe apologists who take anything mildy critical of their team or kobe personally. Some have called those people "haters".

Posted by: Laker Lover | March 14, 2008 at 09:56 AM

Laker Lover,

Good post mate. I just wanted to point out that I watch all the Lakers games and almost all Cavs games(NBALP)and I always pay close attention to the shot selection of both Kobe and LeBron. I must say that LeBron's shot selection isn't all that better than Kobe and I'm not saying that to depreciate anything that LeBron does because he's an awesome player no doubt, but it's true. Last night LeBron was 1 for 7 from beyond the arc in a loss to the Wizards which begs the question, is that bad shot selection for someone with his ability to get to the rim and draw fouls?

As much as I dislike Skip Bayless, I have to agree with his point about LeBron being the worst 3 point shooter of 59 players with over 200 three point shots taken this season. If this is the case, why continue to jack up threes? Sure, LeBron has games as he did against the Knicks where he makes a good amount of threes, but if he goes 1 of 6 or 1 for 7 in quite a few games, is that bad shot selection? I agree that Kobe does take bad shots at times, but also makes some amazing shots as well(arguably the best in the league when it comes to making the most "degree of difficulty"shots). Laker Lover, what do you consider bad shot selection? Is it the type of shots taken or when the shots are taken? In Kobe's defense(not so much this year as in years past), his mates would pass him the ball with the shot clock way down causing him to take a difficult shot.

My other question is how do you define selfish? Where do you draw the line between trying to take over a game and being selfish? LeBron leads in fourth quarter points this year with Kobe coming in second in that category, so is that trying to take over a game and help your team win or is that selfish? Do stars have to be "selfish" at times in order for their team to win?

Like you I'm a Laker fan period regardless of who wears the purple and gold. Thanks for your thought provoking post. Have a great day. Go Lakers!!!

Laker Lover,

Have you ever played basketball? Everyone complains to the refs. Tim Duncan is one of the worst complainers. Is he not a leader? If it was a play that was called all the time, then why can't it be a valid point? There's something to that. You seem to not grasp the situation. What is at stake. LeBron has nothing on the line. Kobe has his legacy on the line, and has EVERY right to feel the pressure of it. You blame Kobe, but do you ever blame the FO not having any intentions of making these changes until Kobe made it a national issue? He took the hit, but it worked. LeBron is gone in 2 years, and that is his leverage. He is not under the microscope Kobe is. As a Laker fan, you should be glad that you have a LEADER who wants more. Does T-Mac ever care? He quit in Orlando. Vince? He quit in Toronto. Kidd? He manipulated his way out of NJ, because he didn;t want to play with Vince anymore. Shaq? Quit on Miami, and would rather "heal on company time." Not only will that never happen with Kobe, but he risks his image to make sure something got done. You claim you're a Laker fan, then as a Laker "fan," you should be glad that in the aftermath of the tantrum. A real team arrived. Part of it was eventual, and part of it was an awakening. Either way, you, as a "fan" have the Championship caliber team you say you want. A direct result of the player you bash. A player who has taken and made many of those shots you want tim to take. He's the best pro in the NBA, but yet, you get caught up in media perception, and miss the very fact you're a fan, to see your team grow and win.
You say he's not a leader, but the Laker's relevance was a gradual rise. It's no surprise to us that have been watching this team game in and game out the past few years, we've seen the steady improvement. Led by Kobe Bryant. So, what else do you want? What more can he do? Would you rather he keep his mouth shut, while management does nothing, a la Kevin Garnett? Then have a team that fails to make the playoffs, then watch the Lakers eventually trade Kobe, and then rebuild. Is that the leader you prefer? Number don't lie. Don't believe the hype....blah blah blah. You just don't like him. Just don;t sit there and questio his leadership when he has constantly gotten it done year after year.

LAKERMAN420:"LAKERS FOR LIFE BABY!!!!!!

D@MNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN! I like your style big brother.
Welcome aboard. I'm putting you in the Roll Call as you
read this.

ALL RIGHT! I knew I was coming to the right place! YYYAAAA BBBBBOOOOOYYYEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's Time to WATCH SOME LAKERS AND HAVE A BEER, TOKE A BOWL AND SCREAM AND CHEER!!!! 4 and OH NO THEY DIDN'T!! Yes they will!!!! You just gotta believe!!

LAKERS 4 LIFE BABY!!!!!!!!

LakerMan 420

Nemaia Faletogo- I have no problem with any player taking over a game, as long as they are playing within the offense and taking good shots. I didnt see the Cavs game but if Lebron was taking bad shots Id be the first to say he was, lots of players take bad shots.

To me a selfish player is somone who does things on and off the court for their own personal interest, not the teams. For example, calling out teammates, calling out the owner. It shouldnt matter who scores , gets rebounds or stats, if the goal is winning. Artest is a selfish player, a great talent but a selfish player. Look at his off court antics.

More recently the lakers biggest deficiency has been defense. Kobe can play excellent defense when he puts his mind to it. I want to see him play that type of defense in the 1st half of games especially when the team is struggling, setting an example for the other lakers and enegizing the team.

What I find funny is what other superstar player do you wonder what type of "game" he will play? Will he pass the ball and try to get his teammates involved or be aggressive scoring. Every other superstar I can think of just plays their game.

Now look @ me lose my head already. How can I not say a super huge HELLO to everyone on the blog and the equally large THANKYOUVERYMUCH(said with and Elvis lisp) to Mamba24 for placing me on the ROLLCALL!!

Watch some Lakers, drink a beer, toke a bowl and scream and cheer!!!
LAKERS FOR LIFE BABY!!
LakerMan 420

Xodus - thats a funny story about MJ and medical Bill, thats what he should have said to MJ if that was true. Id say the same thing about any superstar, they need to get over it, every player makes mistakes even them.

Hey AK

I think the problem is in the definition 'fan'

For some people you can be a fan but not agree with everything the object of fandom does and have an ability to rationalise their abilites strenghths,weaknesses,rights, wrongs,superiors,inferiors etc while still supporting them

OR

You define being a fan as sticking up for that person under whatever circumstances....criticising or acknowledging fault or weakness is tantamount to slagging your friends off behind thier backs or watching your friend get smoked in a fight and deciding to jump in only after you decide he didnt start it and doesnt deserve a hiding.The whole point of being a fan is to give unrestrained support to the subject of fandom under any circumstances.Anything else other than blind loyalty...especially if you claim to support the team is unnacceptable.

Taliq,

What I said was that Nash was called out as a bad defender. There's a difference between getting "called out" and getting "shredded." You're looking for the latter, and like I said, if a writer either doesn't think he's as bad a defender as you or thinks his offense cancels it out, then there's no need to spend "50 paragraphs" on the defense, since it's not central to their argument. When it comes down to it, you're looking for Nash to get torn to shreds, and nobody is going to shred a guy and then say, "here's my MVP!" That wouldn't make any sense. You're basically asking for the illogical. Again, like I said, it comes down to one central, simply point. You don't think he's MVP-worthy and these other people did.

Actually, I think your "hater" definition did more to prove what I'm saying than make your own argument. Look at the examples you brought up. These Republicans slamming Clinton for "Monica-Gate" weren't doing it out of any actual (and hypocritical) moral outrage. They were doing it purely to strengthen their own political party and because they didn't like Bill Clinton (i.e., it's personal). When people typically talk about any descrepencies in how Bonds vs. McGwire, the argument inevitably comes back to a) race or b) that Bonds is a jerk to the media, so it's payback (i.e., it's personal). Like you said, the term typically comes up over a situation where something is "unfair." And in delving into why it's unfair, the explanations always go back to the "hater" and something personal.

AK

Laker Lover,

>>>when did I ever say its all Kobes fault for anything or he is a
>>>terrible player? ... Dont put words that I never said into posts.
>>>You lose credibility when you do that.

My apologies. Though you do sometimes give more blame to Kobe
than he deserves, I can't recall you ever saying he's terrible. That
was more directed at Gunner.

>>>which 2 games do you think the Lakers will win on this trip?

I don't know. I think that all four opponents are hard challenges, and
all four are capable of beating the Lakers. I also think the Lakers
are capable of beating any or all of the four, even on the road.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say the Lakers beat New Orleans
and Houston and lose to Dallas and Utah. Mostly, that's based on
how tough Dallas (28-4) and Utah (28-3) are at home.

I think the Lakers will be playing harder than they have lately in all
four games, and I also think all of those teams will be playing harder
to try to knock off the top team in the West. It'll come down to a
player here and there having a hot or cold streak. E.G. if Rad
goes off for 15 on 5 threes one night, that's a difference maker.
If Fish goes 2-for-10 another night, that's a difference maker.

It would take a ton of luck to get the positive difference makers 4
games in a row, but just on average, I'd expect the Lakers to have
the positive difference makers in 2 games out of 4.

Kiwi,

"you dont often see the guy who wins MVP getting slammed over his weak points particularly."

It's funny how Kobe is arguably the most well rounded player in the game (and has been for a while), yet his weak points are magnified by the media every year. The bias is smacking me in the face. Nash's awful defense is pretty much ignored, relative to the attention Kobe's "weak points" receive. Kobe continually gets slammed by the media for his "weak points".

In 2006, all I heard was Kobe will not win MVP because his team does not have enough wins. His historic numbers were minimialized. I believe he finished 4th that year. Yet Lebron is a frontrunner alongside Kobe when he is in the same situation Kobe was in back in 2006. That is a clear sign of bias. There is either a favorable bias towards Lebron and Nash, or there is an unfavorable bias towards Kobe, or both. I say it's both.

LAKERTRUTH

I dont hear Kobe being criticised for technical weaknesses in his game.He doesn't have any...he's long been seen as the best all around player in the league.His leadership has come under question and he's been the best player but not the MVP.Seems simple to me...the award is not for the best player.To win MVP a prerequisite is that your team wins fifty plus games.

Thats why nobody 'moaned' about Nash's D...they didnt need to - his teams were winning.if they were were sitting around the 50 percent mark then maybe Nash's D would be given as a possible reason why. In 2006 the second best player in the team went down for the seasons and the suns didnt miss a beat -rightly or wrongly Nash got the credit and therefore was considered valuable

'Lebron is a frontrunner alongside Kobe'

- Kobe was seen as a frontrunner alongside Nash and others that year and was talked about as much as anyone at the same stage of the season...Kobe got MVP love that year - he just happened to finish fourth... but lets wait and see where Lebron finishes this year before we judge.Ive already said myself that if the cavs dont win 50 plus games then Lebron shouldnt (and probably wont) be in the running - in fact he would probably finish fourth.

Regardless of what you and I think it is never much of a surprise as to who wins MVP becasue the people with votes basically look for the same things each year.If Kobe leads his team to the best record in the West and Lebron wins the award with under fifty wins Id be the first to complain.