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KCAL Game Thread - Lakers vs. Raptors

February 1, 2008 |  5:40 pm

Remember, don't spoil any surprises for those 90 minutes behind.  Although you can talk about Gasol all you want.  I think everyone knows by now.

AK


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Comments

Mitch said on TV that Bynum is still on schedule to make his recovery.

This is from a Yahoo column, funny:

"Around the league, the reaction of executives and coaches was unanimous: What a nightmare for us. When reached with the news, one Western Conference executive said simply, “Are you kidding? (Expletive) me.”

From Yahoo:

"Around the league, the reaction of executives and coaches was unanimous: What a nightmare for us. When reached with the news, one Western Conference executive said simply, “Are you kidding? (Expletive) me.”

Time to get that swagger back..Lakers for the Championship..Gyeah!!!

BK,

Funny post on the NBA Live thing. This definitely feels like messing with things on Madden and NBA Live.

Now that we have all the ingredients, it takes a good cook to prepare the right food and work with these ingredients. No matter how good they are individually if there is no chemistry, there will never be any chemical reactions. Let's go one day at a time. We don't know how Drew and Ariza will contribute after being sidelined for 10 games. It takes sometime before Pau get to use to offense so Lakerville, temper your excitement with realistic expectations. Championship is attained by people who wanted it, not only to the people who looked like championship caliber. They have to blend, they have to work and finally, they have to win at all times.

Michael!
Michael T!!!

it's time to stop putting your frustrations on a innocent Andrew Bynum. he's never done you any wrong. may you receive the impact of any ill you wish, or any hex you try to place on Drew. Get Thee Back! This Blog wants the Lakers to succeed.

BK,

Why do you even suspect we couldn't sign all 3 of the players, (Vujacic, Turiaf, and Ariza.)? Aren't they all restricted F/A's? Isn't it simply a matter of money and the luxury cap? Jerry Buss is preparing his personal Laker legacy. The team will resign all 3 players and win the next 4 NBA championships. Take it to the Bank!

AK/BK

This issue has been brought up before, but now that I have a current, concrete example, I want to point it out.

This was written by Yahoo! Sports columnist Adrian Wojnarowski:

“My first thought was with Kwame and Javaris," Bryant said Friday, and yes, you had to laugh a little. Rest assured, Kobe’s first – second, third and fourth – thoughts were with Kobe. ... "

Now, I know there is no Kobe conspiracy in the media, but doesn't the sentiment in the that paragraph seem a tad personal and unprofessional? That kind of attack is the one that I and a lot of others find objectionable. These are the guys we end up calling "haters" because of these type of low blows. I'm not trying to defend Kobe, he can do fine himself, it just makes that writer look like a douchebag to be so skeptical of Kobe's sincerity, and I think others should recognize his douchebag-ness and admit this is not a rare occurence in the media. We have "haters" like this on the blog that come out from time to time when the Lakers are not faring well. They don't usually have their own column.

Anyway, I bring this up so you can see what we're talking about when we label people "haters". I don't need dry journalism, and I don't expect unconditional praise, but I do hope for some modicum of objectivity from a national columnist such as Wojnarowski.

Just like Smush Parker, Kwame is already a history. I hope we have no more ill feelings, no more Kwame to kick around. Just like any gentle Laker fan would do, wish him luck to his new venture. It is not pleasant to put someone down when they are already gone. What good deeds you wish to our former players will come back to us in ten fold. These are some corny sayings on chinese cookies, but think about it, it's better to be nice to our former players or voyagers than be angry.

With Kobe still in his prime (he is only 29!!), and the fact that we are still one of the youngest teams in the league (Bynum and Farmar are 20 yrs old, Ariza is 22, Turiaf is 22, Gasol is 27) means that we are going to have a great roster for the next 5 years!

Here’s how I would arrange the roster assuming everyone is healthy. Of course, this could be interchangeable given matchups (i.e. start Lamar instead of Ariza vs. Suns, Warriors, etc.)

Starting Five:
Fisher, Kobe, Ariza, Gasol, Bynum (I like this lineup b/c we have good defensive up front with Kobe and Ariza, great blocking & rebounding with Bynum and Gasol, and plenty of scoring from #24 and Fisher)

Bench Mob:
Farmar, Sasha, Walton, Lamar Odom, Ronny Turiaf (this is a damn deep bench with some speed and quickness!)

Rest of Bench:
Vlad Rad, DJ Mbenga, Chris Mihm, Coby Karl (we can easily interchange Walton and Vlad as well as go big with Mihm/Mbenga)

Team Strengths:
Length, Blocks, Rebounds, Versatility, Shooting, and the best closer in the game…..

Team Weakness:
Top-level perimeter defensive (although we do have Kobe and Ariza, we don’t have a shutdown guy like Bowen or Artest)

Financial Implications:
Since this summer will be our first chance to sign Bynum to a max contract, it pretty much guarantees that Lamar will be on his way out after his contract expires. This summer will be our first chance to sign Bynum to a max contract, but luckily the new contract will not go into effect until the 2009/2010 season since he still has to play out his final year of his rookie contract (2008-2009). There is no way Lakers can afford more than 3 players making $13+ million (Kobe, Pau, Bynum). Therefore, the Lakers have 2 options regarding Lamar Odom:

1) Trade him this summer (2008) or early next year before the trading deadline (his contract year just like Kwame this year, except his contract year will be valued at $14.5 million)

2) Let his contract run out and try to re-sign him at a cheaper price (say mid-level or $6-7 million/per year)

I would choose option #2, only because next year, Bynum will still be cheap even if we sign him this summer to a max contract. His new contract will not go into effect till 2009-2010, which will coincide with Lamar’s current contract expiring. Therefore, we should just sign Lamar for cheap after his contract expires.

As for this summer, I would try to use the mid-level to sign Sasha and Turiaf to complete our bench. I would also look to trade Chris Mihm and Vlad (or Luke) this summer or by next year’s trading deadline to free up some cap space and reduce redundancy (should be about $8.5 million). In any case, the Lakers future is so bright with this blockbuster trade. We have a serious chance to make a run at the championship for the next 5 years! The only thing I’m sad about is that we had to trade Javaris Critt…..who I think is going to be a stud in this league. However, it was a sacrifice we had to make……..

Curious to hear your thoughts…..by the way, Lakers vs. Celtics…………wow, that would be amazing to see!

BK,

I truly expect the ESPN, Fox, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc., etc., to all change their NBA "Standings" over the next few days. I think we'll see a lot of, "x-clinched playoff berth" in front of the Lakers. HA!

Memphis T.
you said the earth was square but it is round, so you can go east don't worry your not going to go over the edge.

BA BYE

"Who is this "we" that you're talking about, Mike? Please don't lump us Laker fans with the likes of you. You are disingenuous and IMO nothing but an attention w#ore. Your accusations and insight don't even make sense anymore, and to secretly hope that AB will need microfracture surgery is just low."

Are you serious? I posted a link where a doctor stated that Bynum's injury has a high risk of recurrence. What that means is this: If Bynum reinjured his knee, which is possible because of the "high recurrence" factor, then the Lakers would ask themselves this: Should we put Bynum on the self for another "minimum" of 8 weeks? Probably not! Because if it occurs, again, that probably means it'll continue to occur, again, and again. If it happens for a 2nd time the Lakers will probably move towards some type of surgery. From what I've read that would be microfacture surgery.

To pretend that this situation doesn't exist is outright stupid. Like, as if though, by stating the obvious is a bad thing or something. It's the true situation.

And if you think being a Laker fan is high on my priority list...it's not! I've been following the Lakers since I was 10 years old. And this blog has allowed me to see the political side of the game and I don't like it. Usually, without the blog, I would have just followed blindly because I couldn't/wouldn't have been able to say anything about it. But the Blog allowed me explain in detail what I was seeing. I could give a shyt about the Lakers. As far as I'm concerned they are nothing but a political machine that operates straight out of a Hollywood mentality.

The Lakers aren't going to win anything for the next 10 years. And the only thing I'm going to do is come on the blog to mock the foolishness of the owners when it happens.

Mark my words. The Lakers are going to get killed when they get pasted the weak teams.

Those idiots like Magic Johnson, James Worthy, and Norm Nixon operate and think along the lines of "showtime" basketball. That's how they interpret the game. This isn't a showtime team and never will be. With Kobe Bryant the Lakers should have been building for defense. Gasol is the weakest defender in the league. And these fools think this is going somewhere?

That's why Magic Johnson is a part owner and not a GM. Part owner because Jerry Buss felt sorry for him. The guy is stupid! The guy can barely speak correctly.

James Worthy? The guy is so stupid that he has an opportunity to be a legitmate basketball analysist and work for ESPN or something but he doesn't even recognize it. The guy is so dumb and such a Lakers "homer" that the big opportunity has passed him by. If a stuttering fool like Bill Walton can get an ESPN gig why not James Worthy? Because he doesn't think that big. He's not Big Game James. He's No Game James. He had a perfect launching point to get into basketball coverage with the big boys but his game is too weak. He's been on LTV and KCAL 9 for how many years? Gee...you would think a guy with that type of opportunity would grow.

He thinks like Magic Johnson speaks. I don''t got no money! Magic Johnson speaks in double negatives. Through all the negative stuff he's been through as a speaker he still can't get that though his head.

Hey Magic. It's not: I don't got no money. It's: I have no money! The don't and the no are both negative. Used in the same sentence it's called a double negative. The guy is that dumb. Not dumb because of the double negative he uses but because Howard Stern used to clown him about his speach. And to this day Magic still does it. LOL! Wow! And these are the Lakers basketball "experts." Listen to Magic Johnson speak! He has to speak so slow because he'll tangle up his words. LOL! Now that is dumb!

Norm Nixon got traded because, I read, he was a crackhead! He got traded for a rookie. And Norm Nixon was one of the better point guards at the time. The guy is so stupid that he was chasing crack in the off-season and threw NBA Championships away for some crack. Need I say more about Norm? Look at him! He looks like he's barely 5 years out of the gutter.

There's a reason these guys are stuck having to rely on the Lakers' business connections to get jobs.

They're uneducated fools and nothing is going to change that. Can you believe that guys like Van Gundy, Barry, Doug Collins, and Tom Tolbert have worked and do work ESPN and James Worthy and Norm Nixon are stuck in L.A., where a lot of ESPN is broadcast from, and are still doing local TV? And these are NBA Champions!

Uneducated fools I tell you!

mike

"I remember finding out about you.......everyday my mind is all around you..."

So to talk about the game, only 5 turnovers for the Lakers? Wow, they're playing better already! So will Pau be ready for the next game?

I wonder if we can get JC back in the very near future....I don't know how long Fish would be able to keep up..

When healthy, we were already at the top of the league. This trade puts us over the top.

A few thoughts:

Every other contending team in the West is sick about this trade.

Do not trade for Kidd.

The Cav's FO is looking pretty unimaginative and lazy right now in LBJ's mind. He will want to leave when opt-out time comes. He wants to play in LA for several reasons (endorsement incentives, playing for an organization whose history befits his personal greatness, chance to play alongside Kobe whom he idolizes, etc.) He can sign for the max and we'll have 2 players to trade for him., LO and Gasol.. Can you imagine KB, LBJ & AB in the same line-up?

Lakers make it to at least Western Conference finals this year.

Get used to being the favorites again, Laker fans.

Laker Kev

Had to copy this post from a Suns blog:

We can be optimistic all we want but this really SUCKS and they got him for virtually NOTHING! How does the Suns or any team for that matter match up with the Lakers now? A true 7'-0" center in Bynum, All-star caliper forwards in 7'-1" Gasol & 6'-10" Odom and then toss in the current best all-around player in Bryant with Fisher & Farmar handling the point? Man, the Lakers never cease to amaze me, every good 7'-0" center (Gasol included) to play the game and they end up with them! If we held onto KT we would have had the expiring contract, the Alanta pick is sure to be higher than the Lakers and we could have tossed in Tucker or Strawberry, & Banks to make the salaries work. We get burned on the KT trade twice because we also gave up two 1st rd picks with that one. This just sucks! Kupchak just redeemed himself big-time! OK Kerr, what do you have in your back pocket?

CRANK UP YOUR TRADE MACHINES!!!

For all of his scourge-of-the-earth qualities, Mark Heisler has revealed some interesting parts of the Gasol back-story.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-heisler2feb02,0,6314802.story

While Kupchak was lighting up the phones, both Lamar Odom and VladRad were cards on the table, waiting to be dealt. Why didn't Memphis want LO? With Odom making $13.2 million this season and $14.1 million next, the Griz weren't interested. VladRad was part of an offer from the Bulls, but the Lakers didn't want Ben Wallace.

I'm betting that LO and VladRad's days in Purple & Gold are numbered, if Kupchak can find any takers. Too much money for too little reward.

Ok, trade machine addicts, which teams have players with expiring contracts who might help the Lakers take LO and VladRad off the books, so we can keep Sasha, Ronny, and Ariza?

The trade won the game last night. Optimism makes Kobe's legs spring.

Next year will be great, but this could be better than advertised if the "mo" flows our way. Fish and Kobe have enough experience, and with LO's role reduced to a place he can dominate, "all the way" isn't all that far.

It's going to be an "earn while you learn" experience, but knowing that it's inevitable, confidence should be at a 3 year high.


That's right, I have to update my roster in NBA 2K8. This is gonna be awesome!


(I'll miss Kwame too)

The new trade bait is Vlad and Luke. 11 mil per off the books would help.

You'd think Mitch will let Lamar expire. Hopefully, he'll expire with a new ring.


Mike T-

"This is where it shows that Memphis is the 2nd worst defensive team in the NBA and that was with two 7-footers."

Yeah, and one of those 7-footers was Darko. Pretty sure he's not in the "Bruce Bowen" school of defense. Him and Kwame should get along VERY welltogether. I almost feel bad for Memphis fans.

ALMOST.

I wish I could buy Mitch & Dr. Buss a cup of coffee or something.

Gotta man up and say, I was wrong. Nice Job!

In the LA times, Heisler gave this Front line: Bynum, Lamar, Gasol

Why wouldn't it be Bynum, Gasol & Ariza?

Mike T,

Why you upset my man? Didn't somebody comment that Gasol was for the Latinos? Get on board hermano.

LakerLarry-

Either I misspoke or you misunderstood. There's no reason in principle that they can't sign all three. Practically, it depends a little on the market and what they'll cost collectively, and how willing Dr. Buss is to go into the luxury tax. Like I wrote, I figure they've done the math and are prepared to pony up, but obviously the NBA is a difficult market to predict, and sometimes guys will get contracts that are just goofy. And the way Ronny and Sasha are playing, they're earning bigger deals game by game. Personally, I think the trade is an endorsement of their belief in Sasha to be a quality backup behind Kobe, and I think they'll sign him. Obviously, they love Ronny. And Ariza's injury could be a blessing in disguise for LA at least in this context.

In the end, it really depends on what Dr. Buss is willing to do. They have to field a team, and stripping it down to accommodate the "Big Three (four if you count LO) doesn't make sense. And they're so far beyond the cap, they won't be able to sign any FAs. So the guys they have are the best guys they'll likely be able to get.

I'd expect at least two to be resigned, assuming the terms are relatively reasonable. But should they play their way into big offers? It's hard to predict.

BK

Mike T,

You are sounding increasingly unstable and incoherent in your posts. It was about basketball before. Now you're just raving mad. Get help, man

Also, I'd rather have Magic Johnson's way of speaking over George W. Bush's. A double negative would be an improvement for him.

BK,
Are the Lakers over the salary cap with Gasol? can we add another player or two to make it 15? the lakers lost 4 players(cook,evans,brown,crit )and replace by two(gasol and ariza).

exhelodrvr,

>>>This is definitely going to affect who they re-sign this summer...
>>>This trade effectively makes Lamar the SF, which moves Walton, Vlad, and Ariza one step
>>>farther down the list. Walton and Vlad are on the team for several more years, so it will be hard
>>>for the team to give Vujacic, Turiaf, and Ariza what their market value will be. (The team is
>>>farther over the cap now then it was before.) So expect them to not resign at least one,
>>>possibly two, of those three.

I don't think it's as bleak as you think, and I think it all depends on performance.

You do know that playoff games are basically pure profit for the owner. I don't know how much
they make per game, but let's throw out a round number and say the Lakers make 1 million in
profit for each game played at Staples. The players and coaches contracts are annual, so unless
it's specifically written into their contracts, they don't get paid any more by the team if they win
a championship than if they make the lottery. (The league does pay a bonus, but not the team).

So let's say when Bynum comes back, the addition of Gasol sends the Lakers to the Western
Conference Finals. And lets say they end up playing 9 games at Staples. That's 9 million extra
income, which more than offsets the difference in salary (including the luxury tax) for Pau Gasol
vs Kwame + Critter.

And if that's the case (Lakers to WCF), then Buss will be motivated to keep the team together, as
currently constructed. This season, Vujacic and Turiaf have been vital components of the Lakers,
and Ariza showed a ton of promise when he was playing. But none of them looks like a max
contract player or anything like that. Playing as they are, I'd put Turiaf in the full MLE range this
summer, and Vujacic and Ariza slightly below that. And what's more, I think that all three of those
players would accept slightly less from the Lakers than from other teams - a combination of
loyalty to the team and wanting to play for a contender.

Of the three, I'd say Ariza is the least likely of the three to be re-signed if they keep both Odom
and Gasol. Lamar and Luke are both perfect SF's for a team that has so many good scorers in
Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Fisher, Farmar, Vujacic, etc. They are both low-ego players who are happy
to defer to other players, which is useful (ask Phoenix about Marion and Stodamire if you don't
believe me).

But if Ariza comes back and plays a significant role in the playoffs, then I could see them making
offers to all three players, luxury tax be damned. They'd be in the state that Phoenix is in right
now, but with a slightly better team.

And here's one other thought... I could see Buss as being more generous with those three players
if Odom was willing to sign a multi-year extension for less than he's currently making. For example,
if Odom would agree to extend for 3 years at 8 million per (going 9 million, 8 million, 7 million), then
that would make a little bit of a buffer for the extra cash for Ariza/Vujacic/Turiaf.

And there's one other possibility. And this is more likely if the Lakers have an early exit from the
playoffs... They could trade either Gasol or Odom this summer. (I'll do a separate post about that).

"I could give a shyt about the Lakers. "-Mike T

Sure. Don't be a crybaby. You've gotten yourself in a situation where every positive thing that happens to the Lakers becomes a shot right right in your face.

As a true Lakerfan, you need to admit where you were wrong (Kwame), face the consequences, and get back to your 'solid' basketball analysis. The analysis is useful to start very good conversations in here.

You can't run away from the Lakers now.

Nice one Mike, way to show you're not an attention wh#re.

As you admit, you're not a fan. You're just a troll now. Go away.

Also, while we're on the subject of correcting grammar, it's 'past', not 'pasted'. That's just dumb.

Botsoy-

They were over before they got Gasol. But tey can add vet min players, if they'd like, to fill that last spot. With Mihm getting healthy adn Walton to play hopefully as soon as Sunday, I think they'll probably keep it unfillled.

BK

OK, I'm ready for the saturday blog now. It's not like anything big happened yesterday, what's taking you guys so long to track down all your links?

Just for the sake of discussion, Kwame was not also a big defensive gem. In the last game against the Pistons, Prince and Wallace chewed him up in the post. Turiaf despite his size is more aggressive and nimble than Kwame. If this deal Gasol got into fruition before the Pistons game, it could have been a W.

With the inclusion of Gasol + Bynum and Kobe, is it easy to create an easy layup in the post if you pass through these three players? There is quickness, youth and experience in the defense. On the second team include here: Ronnie, Ariza and Mihm there may be a little softness in Chris Mihm but he could still block, again it is not easy to penetrate these defenses.

Searching for defense would not be a problem with this group. There are the marksmen, that would be: Kobe, Sasha, Farmar, Fisher, Vlad and Coby. I disagree with the scenario of trading Vlad, as you can see in yesterdays game, he contributed in rebounds and his long ton shot could be explosive, it is a secret weapon. LO and Luke are the odd players with total contracts $ 17M, (a good trade bait in summer of young euros like: Calderon or Bargnani) LO & Luke can be good players and also bad players, this time they can choose which one they want to be during the playoffs? with a lot of options in the lineup, the sleepers would just sit down ont he bench. Can they step up or just continue fall behind?

LTLF,
I like your analysis for the most part. But Ariza is a Defender, of whom the Lakers have too few. Odom is way overpriced for what he delivers, and the Lakers will never deal Walton, as much as I wish they would. LO and VladRad are our best bets to go if the team is to have a realistic roster price. Also Mihm will have an expiring contract at the end of next season, and he could be on the block as well if there were any takers. Let's get rid of these three underperformers and use whatever money is available for guys who show they can be the team's future.

Turief & Sasha are RESTRICTED free agents after this season. Ariza has a player option to become a FA. If I had to choose I would re-sign Ariza first, then Turief and third Sasha. I agree with those that say we need to get rid or Walton or Radmanovich to free up some $.
When Bynum gets healthy I'm not sure I would go with the BIG line-up of Bynum, Gasol and Odom. I still think Odom plays better at the 4. I like Ariza at the 3 with Odom as a 6th man.

Weatherman,

I'm working on it. I also allowed myself to sleep in a bit. It's a Saturday, my man.

AK

There is a God and hes a celtic hater .He couldnt let the celtics get all the glory this year and now Lakernation is alive and well.Now all Kupchak needs to do to become Executive of the year is trade Odom and Walton(neither can shot a 15 footer) for whoever

Mike T,
Pls. tell Kwame to ask the grizzlies for contract buyout and return to the lakers for the minimum vet contract..

"I could give a shyt about the Lakers." - Mike T.

Well that sums it up. We got people who dont care about the Lakers blogging about the Lakers.

Paradoxical? I think so....

Who ever thought A. McKie would be useful in a trade?

No problem AK, I guess you're allowed to sleep in today with a 9am game looming tomorrow morning. I know it's not easy to come up with all those witty quips if you don't get in your full night's rest.

"They're uneducated fools and nothing is going to change that. "

Mike T,

You haven't shown a modicum of intelligence or education ever since you've been on this board. If you don't care about the Lakers, then leave this board and let fans discuss things. Your aimless ramblings have reached a new low; you've resorted to call men who have a higher salary than your own "uneducated" and somehow get this pathetic notion that the Lakers are a "political machine" stuck in your head.

If anyone needs to stop chasing the crack rock, it's you.

Mike T,

You should be the last to call someone uneducated, sounds like "pot calling the kettle black." You claim to be a writer and can't spell so what's the difference.

Maybe Magic don't speak proper enough for you but he sure knows how to put himself in position to continue making millions...all that really matters is that he knows how to sign his name on those contracts.

Edwin Gueco,

Yes, Wallace "chewed him up" to the tune of 3-13 for 6 points and 4 rebounds. And Kwame wasn't guarding Prince. Hmm, I understand if you didn't watch the game, but at least look at the box score!!

On a different note, should I be happy that Hollinger is calling the Lakers favorites? Who'd he pick before the season again? *cough*Houston*cough*

AK/BK ... when we gonna get a new thread yo ... no game today, lets talk pau gasol ... i got lyrics to celebrate the trade, gimme my stage yo

Wanna know the definition of IRONY?

It's when you make fun of someone's speech by misspelling the word "speech". Idiot I tell you, IDIOT!!!!

"Not dumb because of the double negative he uses but because Howard Stern used to clown him about his speach."

Posted by: Michael Teniente | February 02, 2008 at 12:37 AM

Hey, let's be cool with Mike T. This was a shocker for his system. Everything he identified with is gone, in one fell swoop. He'll get over it. I don't blame him for placing his hope in Kwame and I don't blame Kwame for becoming an embarrassment. The system has never been nice to him, except that one day when his ego was artificially inflated at a tender age by becoming the number 1 draft pick.

Mike, my only beef with you for the moment is your remarks on language. Black English -- call it ebonics if you like -- has its own grammar, which is neither better nor worse than white English. It's used by different people in different places. Double negatives are part of it, just as phrases such as "he could have went" (instead of "he could have gone") are part of it. Linguists know this. The way you speak in public is a badge of your identity and not necessarily a sign of your ignorance. Kareem Abdul doesn't speak that way because he has assumed a different type of identity (man, the dude had English classes at UCLA with Mr Lindstrom-- according to an article in the Times this week -- and he might have had some with Tom Clayton, my own mentor, when I would see Kareem in the corridors of Royce Hall in the 60s).

After UCLA I did Oxford (missed Bill Bradley, but was there with Bill Clinton), and I happen to have learned a few things about language. I suggest you read a few books on sociolinguistics to get a better handle on these questions of style and identity. And, one other thing, it would be more polite not to call everyone you don't like "stupid" and "dumb".

Alec,

Well said!

i'd like to see the lakers trade lamar & Vlad Rad for Mike miller - imagine that?

By the way, am I wrong, or is the real winner here Aaron McKie?

BK

 


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