The Sundays ring in
October 14, 2007 | 9:57
am
No, not these Sundays, (Though I used to have a thing for lead singer Harriet Wheeler. Pretty, killer voice, British accent. What's not to like?), but the typing kind. Given all that went on this week with Jerry Buss on the Kobe situation, it's not surprising to see some Sunday hoops columnists weigh in on the situation.
- Mercifully, the belief in New York is that the Knicks won't be in position to make a good enough offer to the Lakers to get 24, making a trade with New York unlikely. A pipe dream for Isiah Knickerbocker fans, even. I think we can all be thankful for that.
- In Chicago, Jay Mariotti says bring Kobe in, perhaps with a deal using Ben Gordon and Tyrus Thomas as "centerpieces." Hate to break it to ol' Jay, but that won't send Kobe to Chicago anytime soon. Maybe if/when the Lakers reach DEFCON 5, but not right now. A trade isn't likely to happen soon anyway... if it happens at all.
- Staying in the Windy City, Sam Smith, who floats a more realistic picture of what the Lakers would want in return for Bryant, says making a deal for him is appealing, but not without risk.
- Mark Heisler writes of P.J.'s response to it all, and is strapping in for a long season.
- Utah will be players in the Kobe sweepstakes. Because Rob Pelinka is Carlos Boozer's agent, too? Umm.... no.
In an unrelated but interesting note, Jackson questions Kevin Garnett's perception of the franchise, at least in terms of why KG was leery of coming to L.A.
BK
>>>>Will NBC duplicate Buss's 2004 strategy?
Let's not forget that Buss's choice was not an aging Shaq vs. an up-n-coming Kobe.
The choice was an aging Shaq vs. an up-n-coming Kobe, PLUS Odom, PLUS Butler, PLUS still serviceable Grant, PLUS Farmar.
Appears pretty loaded, but he still picked the wrong option.
Posted by: HAB | October 15, 2007 at 10:02 AM
Michael A
"I suspect a real rebuilding effort will take place for next year."
I think you just used the "R" word, the one Mitch and Jerry so carefully avoided after Shaq but here we are right where management has taken us.
On a somewhat related note, which line on Jim Buss's resume gave Jerry the opinion that he could run this thing? Education? Expereince? Interests? Special talents?
We're gettin' Sonny instead of Michael Coroleon.
Posted by: Vman | October 15, 2007 at 10:05 AM
I wasn't going to vote -- I trust management will do the right thing -- but if I had my preference:
RETAIN.
Here's why-- If Kobe doesn't feel like progress has been made, he'll walk. It's a given. Buss doesn't want Kobe to go. That's a given. But if Buss has no choice, he'll get the most he can. That's business.
My vote for Kobe to stay is a vote that this season will be a good one, that the Lakers will win 55 games, make it to the Conference Finals, make a trade for a missing piece in the off-season (with players who will have raised their trade value) and vie for the Championship next year.
That's my fantasy and I'm sticking to it.
Posted by: Marty | October 15, 2007 at 10:17 AM
KL -
I need to respond - though I must admit arguing with you is like arguing with Karl Rove over whether Bush is a good president.
Nonetheless, you are NOT a Laker loyalist. Not if you want to get rid of the only player who might actually lead us to a championship and side instead with an inept front office that has consistently lied and done its bumbling best to destroy our shot at a championship for the last three years.
I am a True Laker Loyalist -LOYAL to whoever most helps the Lakers. And that's the All-Star with the I-wanna-win-no-matter-what attitude not the I-want-to-make-money-and-fool-around-with-young-girls-and-don't-care-whether-we-win-as-long-as-I-can excuse for an owner.
Posted by: Jay Jay | October 15, 2007 at 10:21 AM
Jay Jay,
"I am a True Laker Loyalist -LOYAL to whoever most helps the Lakers. And that's the All-Star with the I-wanna-win-no-matter-what attitude"
BRAVO! RIGHT ON!!
Posted by: Mamba24 | October 15, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Marty,
"My vote for Kobe to stay is a vote that this season will be a good one, that the Lakers will win 55 games, make it to the Conference Finals, make a trade for a missing piece in the off-season (with players who will have raised their trade value) and vie for the Championship next year. That's my fantasy and I'm sticking to it."
AMEN THAT'S MY FANTASY TOO!
Posted by: Mamba24 | October 15, 2007 at 10:28 AM
KL & Gunner - it's time that we battle.
I dare you - quadruple dog dare both of you - to address the Front Office issues in regards to "Kobegate." If you are as true a Los Angeles Lakers fan as you say you are, then man up and address the FO issue. You both have waxed poetic about Kobe's role in "Kobegate". Can you do the same in this instance.
Did Kobe play a role in this? Yeah.
Is Kobe the cancer? No.
What happens when the next superstar that comes in gets forced to play with mediocre players and perrinial 1st round exits and calls out the Buss family for making promises they had no intention of keeping? Will you label him a malcontent, also?
Posted by: utzworld - THE BANNER HOLDER | October 15, 2007 at 10:29 AM
Exhelodrvr
I wrote: "Can't the Lakers improve on that with the team they have?"
You wrote: "It's not so much a question of whether the Lakers can improve on 42 wins, it is a question of what the ceiling is with this particular group of players."
I think the ceiling is pretty high - I guess you don't. Perhaps the biggest problem is that by the time Bynum, Turiaf, Farmar and Crittenton reach their full potential, Kobe Bryant will be 2-3 years older.
Posted by: Laker Seth | October 15, 2007 at 10:38 AM
Dr. Tsphere
"Disliking someone you see as disloyal (with some justification) doesn't automatically make you loyal, especially as the clear preference of Buss, the owner, is keep things pretty much the way they are. Now if you aren't loyal to the way things are, you are in the same category as Kobe! So isn't it a bit contradictory to criticize him for the same crimes you're guilty of?"
First, there is no loyalty in business...it doesn't exist except for suckers. my dislike for kobe is not for his lack of loyality to the organization, my dislike is that kobe put his selfish agenda above the team....which BTW is fine, but you've gotta do better than the previous #1 guy. At minimun, take responsibility for your actions.
My preference for Buss and Company is simple, Buss is a business guy and the Laker organization is a business. Buss/Mitch/Jimbo/Jeanie did what they were suppose to do UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES. I like what management has put together as a core team for kobe to lead or for someone else to lead. i am not loyal to the lakers, but i will side with the ownership in this instance.
i'll give you credit for asking a very insightful question about "loyalty" and what that means in professional sports, business and life in general. i don't think this is the forum to discuss that issue, but i give you much credit for raising it.
Posted by: KL | October 15, 2007 at 10:41 AM
Guys,
Chek out Adande defending Buss...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=Roundtable-Kobe
http://tinyurl.com/2tgdxl
Have a great day guys!
Charles
Posted by: Charles | October 15, 2007 at 10:45 AM
VMan,
"We're gettin' Sonny instead of Michael Coroleon."
more like we got Fredo.
Posted by: tha show | October 15, 2007 at 10:45 AM
utzworld
first off, much respect to you.
"What happens when the next superstar that comes in gets forced to play with mediocre players and perrinial 1st round exits and calls out the Buss family for making promises they had no intention of keeping? Will you label him a malcontent, also?"
I truly don't think the next star, like shaq in the past, will have an issue to playing with "mediocre" players because i don't think our guys are mediocre per se. our guy don't play up to their potential because kobe stifles the process. our guys have traditionally backed down to kobe and if kobe is challenged (Atkins), they mysteriously disappear.
Great #1 guys make the most of what they have. Shaq came to LA and immediately made positive contributions. Guys around the league take notice, then want to join Shaq and company. Kobe is the exact opposite. Kobe had the perfect setup, guys would come to LA for pennies on the dollar to win titles alongside shaq and kobe, kobe wanted to win WITHOUT SHAQ AT ALL COST thus creating this environment where free agents are weary to play in LA because they know that kobe was willing to dismiss a key component like shaq FOR SELFISH REASON. what will happen to a Grant Hill who’s “over the Hill”? They’ll waste their time in LA being kobe’s biatch.
i firmly believe if we had a LBJ or Wade (even Melo) in lieu of Kobe, things would be different. The Allen Iversons, Grant HIlls and Kevin Garnetts of the world would embrace playing in LA and not be reluctant.
we still brothers BTW.
Posted by: KL | October 15, 2007 at 10:51 AM
Mamba24,
I was planning to post only when the season starts. But for this retain or trade,
I vote RETAIN.
Thank you.
See you all come first game of the season.
Lysander
Posted by: Lysander | October 15, 2007 at 10:53 AM
Jay Jay
"I need to respond - though I must admit arguing with you is like arguing with Karl Rove over whether Bush is a good president."
don't get me started on Bush and Rove....
"Nonetheless, you are NOT a Laker loyalist. Not if you want to get rid of the only player who might actually lead us to a championship and side instead with an inept front office that has consistently lied and done its bumbling best to destroy our shot at a championship for the last three years."
my issue with you is that i don't think kobe will lead us to a championship. i've felt this way since 2004 when kobe dismissed shaq. i knew that nobody good in the league is going to want to play with kobe because of the selfishness he displayed by throwing away championship opportunities due to a personal gripe with shaq and/or selfish motives to be "the best ever". FO is not "inept" because under the Buss regime, we've made the playoffs 26 of 28 years AND we've won numerous championships. FO only became "inept" when kobe started this drama with the "FO is a mess" comment. this is the MO of the Kobe Bryants of the world, there is ALWAYS A PROBLEM. Always drama and always finger pointing.
"I am a True Laker Loyalist -LOYAL to whoever most helps the Lakers. And that's the All-Star with the I-wanna-win-no-matter-what attitude not the I-want-to-make-money-and-fool-around-with-young-girls-and-don't-care-whether-we-win-as-long-as-I-can excuse for an owner."
difference between you and me is that i see straight through kobe bryant. you trust that kobe is honest with his actions (or inactions) whereas i'm a casual fan of the NBA. i'm not married to the idea that "as the lakers go", i go or "as kobe goes, i go".
BTW, i think you mean "I-wanna-win-no-matter-what attitude" AS LONG AS IT'S NOT WITH SHAQ.
i look at Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and say, "these are the kind of guys i want to represent my Los Angeles Lakers".....not kobe bryant.
Posted by: KL | October 15, 2007 at 11:02 AM
VMan - yeah, we're going to be rebuilding. We've been rebuilding since Shaq was traded, and we'll be rebuilding for another couple of years at least, I think. I don't think there's a chance we'll see Kobe in a Laker uniform in another couple of years, so we either take a step back and rebuild then, or do it now.
I don't think we can get the components of this team to a championship level. And I don't know what Jerry saw; heck, I haven't seen Jim's resume, so I can' tbegin to tell you.I do know this though; there's no point complaining about him, because he's not going anywhere. Like him or not, you've just gotta hope he makes a few good decisions in the next little while.
Mabma 24, I've voted about three times now...I'd rather improve the team, but we pretty much have to trade Kobe. He doesn't want to be here, and we can't afford to just let him walk.
Posted by: Michael A | October 15, 2007 at 11:26 AM
Jay Jay
>>>Is there ANy possibility we win with Lamar and Deng and Hinrich????
>>>
>>>GET REAL!
You're forgetting one player in that equation.
That would be Lamar and Deng and Hinrich and Bynum.
Throw Critter and Farmar and Turiaf and Walton and Thomas into the mix and you're closer to
a championship caliber team than they are now.
Lamar, Deng, and Hinrich are all near-all-star level. I could see any one of the three having a good
season and being an all-star this year. Hinrich is one of the 10 or so best point guards in the league,
Deng is maybe the 5th or 6th best SF, Odom is a top-20 PF, and believe it or not, in John Hollinger's
projected PER rankings for this season, Bynum is projected to be the 14th best center in the league.
It shows how shallow the league is in centers more than Bynum's dominance, but still he does seem
to be making progress.
Compare that to the current PG & SF - Fisher? probably not even top-30 in the league. Farmar?
Crittendon? They both have potential to eventually be good, but it usually takes 2-3 years for a PG
to come up to speed in the NBA. As for small forwards - Luke is an about average player in the league.
He's as good on offense as he is bad on defense. If Rad would give up snowboarding and focus on
his shooting and defense, maybe he could make it up to top 30 in the league, but until then he
deserves to be behind Luke on the depth chart.
And Tyrus Thomas is like Ronny Turiaf with a bit more skill. He could turn into a rebound and block
machine with some offense as gravy within a year or two.
Posted by: Long Time Laker Fan | October 15, 2007 at 11:40 AM
KL: You totally diverted the question to spin things back on Kobe. My challenge is not about Kobe. it's about the mess currently known as the Lakers Front Office.
Once more...with feeling:
I dare you - quadruple dog dare both of you - to address the Front Office issues in regards to "Kobegate." If you are as true a Los Angeles Lakers fan as you say you are, then man up and address the FO issue. You both have waxed poetic about Kobe's role in "Kobegate". Can you do the same in this instance.
Did Kobe play a role in this? Yeah.
Is Kobe the cancer? No.
Posted by: utzworld - THE BANNER HOLDER | October 15, 2007 at 11:50 AM
utz
I'm not sure what the question with "Kobegate" is. Kobe wants out and Jerry Buss is playing the game.
If your question is "is the FO a mess", i say "no". FO is doing what it can UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES. In many ways, FO's hands have been tied since 2004 and even more in 2007.
The knock on FO is that "they have not given kobe a chance to win by getting the right pieces", but what can FO do if they ask the question to free agents "do you want to play in LA?" and the response is "I'd rather play...."?
During the KG sweepstakes, we lost a chance at KG because KG has 3 good years left and wants to chance to win a title. What can FO do to convince KG to take a HUGE RISK in signing with LA if the "kobe question" is still unsettled? I wouldn’t want to play in LA without knowing if the star wants to remain?
Now FO is forced into a decision to trade kobe for pennies on the dollar or let him walk.....sound eerily familiar to you? Kobe put us in BOTH situations.
Please let me know your question and i'll happily respond.
Posted by: KL | October 15, 2007 at 12:39 PM
LakerSeth,
"Perhaps the biggest problem is that by the time Bynum, Turiaf, Farmar and Crittenton reach their full potential, Kobe Bryant will be 2-3 years older"
Yes, Kobe has 2-3 years at this level, and then will gradually decline. ANd the players you all mentioned are all very big IFs as far as how good they will be.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | October 15, 2007 at 03:09 PM
Andrew Bynum...Are you kidding me? Why are we talking about some twenty year old kid as if he were going to be the savior of the Laker's dynasty...? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see him excel, but the fact of the matter is, he still hasn't proven anything. More importantly, he has overshadowed Kobe Bryant, arguably one of the best players to have ever played the game, in the eyes of the Laker organization. Shame on Dr. Buss for listening to Mitch and his idiot son! Dr. Buss, who might have gone down as one of the best owner's in N.BA. history will forever be remembered as the owner who traded away Shaq and Kobe.
Posted by: Mark Korshak | October 19, 2007 at 08:21 PM