Mamba y' Matrix?
(UPDATE: Not to distract from a fun trade debate, but there are a couple of good Laker links today. There's news on Andrew Bynum's summer and a Kobe/PJ/front office update as they head into camp. Also, to remind everyone, our nowlive.com show, "Purple, Gold and Blue," will be broadcast at noon today. To get in on it all, you'll have to register with Now Live, a process that takes about 20 seconds, give or take. Then click on our show. Call in or join the chatboard. The podcast will be available this afternoon (here it is!), but we'd love it if y'all were part of the action!)
I don't remember if there's a specific Lakers Blog bandwagon involving Shawn Marion, as y'all have started about 30 of them since this site's inception. But if such a vehicle does exist, card-carrying members will love an article by Sporting News' Sean Deveney about the Lakers' and Suns' front offices discussing a trade that would send Lamar Odom and salary filler (were I Brian Cook, I'd start googling "desert real estate") to Phoenix for Marion. Deveney raises some interesting points about LO as a primo fit with the Suns. How his passing and ball-handling abilities could help provide Steve Nash some rest. How his ability to snag a rebound and run a fast break is tailor-made for Mike D'Antoni's system. Both salient points I wish I'd considered more before speculating in today's chat that the Suns wouldn't be quite as interested in this swap as the Lakers (since I was comparing them on pure talent and Marion, in my opinion, is the better overall player).
As I read the article, I also thought about how LO's ability with the rock could allow Nash to be utilized in long stretches as a pure shooting threat, where the dude is often deadly. If I do say so myself, I think that's an interesting observation. And if I do say so myself, I really wish I'd considered it more before speculating in today's chat that the Suns wouldn't be quite as interested in this swap as the Lakers.
I'm going to blame the brain cramp on me being distracted by having just concluded a phone interview with Lori Fetrick, better known as "Ice" from "American Gladiators." I'm not kidding, by the way.
As for Marion in L.A., I would never doubt his ability to succeed as a Laker. With any team, really. Anybody who's paid a lick of attention to what I've said since this blog began (and, frankly, I don't blame those who haven't) knows I think Marion is the NBA's most underrated player. Underrated as a four-time All-Star/max-salary player can be, at any rate. His combination of athletic ability, versatility and defensive prowess is pretty amazing. He's also not only consistently aggressive when it comes to putting the ball in the basket (making him a more ideal No. 2 option than Odom), he's been putting up points in Phoenix without the ball in his hands much or having set plays run for him (unlike LO, who's at his best in all respects the more he has the ball). Dude also hasn't missed more than three games since the 2000 season, which makes him not only an upgrade over LO but onetime-rumored Laker joiner Jermaine O'Neal, a great player who gets his mail forwarded to the trainer's room.
And whatever the team loses in LO's passing skills, they'd gain in defense. LO is a solid defender, but Marion is terrific. Not to mention unique. I challenge folks to name four other players (if that many) who can guard Tony Parker AND Tim Duncan. Throw in rebounding, shot-blocking and steals and you're talking about a seriously complete defender. And you may not have noticed, but the Purple and Gold D last season kind of ... what's that description I'm thinking of ... oh, yeah! Sucked. I find it hard to believe that Marion's presence couldn't help along those lines. If nothing else, Marion represents a guy who the team can finally put on Nash, since the Lakers seem destined to play the Suns in the first round of the playoffs until the end of time.
Granted, I'm not gonna get too geeked over this proposal, since rumors have a nasty way of surfacing, then dying. Throw in the fact that "A-list for A-List-ish player" trades are fairly uncommon and it becomes even tougher to buy. That Phoenix might not even be interested were it not for Marion's unhappiness and the transaction is harder still to picture. I'm also guessing any unwillingness on Doc B's part to extend Marion might be a deal breaker. And obviously, the ideal scenario would be to add Marion (or another All-Star-level talent) as a third piece with Kobe and LO. All things being equal, I would prefer to keep Lamar. I'm a big fan of his game and even bigger fan of him as a person. But unless Phoenix is willing to take Andrew Bynum, Kwame Brown's expiring contract (ignoring that Edward Scissorhands would be a better fit in Phoenix by comparison) and "name your role players" or a multi-team trade that I'm too lazy to create can be agreed upon, I don't see the Matrix and LO as SoCal teammates.
However, everything in life can't be ideal, so if I'm a certain age-inappropriate-dating billionaire, I'd jump at the chance to land someone of Marion's caliber while retaining a hot prospect like Bynum (either as the team's future 5 or to flip) and Kwame's expiring contract. Shawn Marion for only one of the Lakers' three total trade assets of any real worth, a deal that doesn't gut the squad of much depth, is about as good as it gets. Unlike the LO-Bynum for JO trade that seems to be at an impasse, I think this would make the Lakers better. Or allows them to remain in a position to continue getting better, if nothing else. And if showing Kobe that they're serious about building a winner remains a priority, I don't see how this wouldn't at least sort of make that point. And if it doesn't, you can consider building around a Matrix-Bynum duo with the pieces you get after eventually dealing Kobe. At worst, you're only on the hook for Marion until 2009, anyway. Maybe even 2008, if he decided to opt out.
Again, Lakers fans should hold off on getting any Matrix tattoos just yet (unless they're just huge Neo Anderson fans and in that case ... whoa!), since this is probably a ways off from becoming a done deal. But it's the most appealing trade rumor I've heard since a certain power forward became a Celtic, one I'd certainly be pleased to see come to fruition. If this notion really has any legs to it, I'm hoping the powers that be work overtime to close the deal.
(An additional thought, one day later: Another reason I like this trade is that Marion is actually healthy as we speak. Odom is reportedly still recovering from shoulder surgery. And if you check out the Lakers' opening month, it ain't all that easy. The difference between making the playoffs and checking out in April could be a healthy Marion vs. a slow-to-go LO)
-- AK
Good point AK ! Mitch Kupcake!!!!!!!!!! Tom & Jerry Buss !!!!!!!!! make this one a done deal !!! if i may request please also trade Andrew & Kwame for Jermaine O'Neal so that we will have a new and exciting laker team this season.
Posted by: jeff_pinoy | September 26, 2007 at 02:32 AM
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=277553
A source says there's a 50/50 chance of a Lamar/Marion trade going down. Marion seems to want it--he's already saying he'd love to play with Kobe. Honestly, I hate this trade. Hate it, hate it, hate it. I know a lot of people might disagree with me, but here's my perspective on the trade: Marion's a highly overrated (if versatile) defender and only gets the points he does because he's had an elite point guard hand-feeding him open looks for his entire career: Kidd, Marbury, and Nash. Say what you will about Marbury, but he's a career 8 assist/game man. Kidd's and Nash's resumes speak for themselves. I read some stat where about 3/4 of all of Marion's baskets last year were assisted. Dude can't create his own shot if his life depended on it. And now there's the possibility that he's going to a team with no real point guard, and the league's biggest volume scorer? Also, what about defense? I wonder if I watch the same games as everyone else, because, while Marion can guard 3 positions, he doesn't guard any of them particularly well. Really, name me one player he's shut down in the playoffs. For every one that's named (if any) I can name a handful of players that have completely gone off on Marion. And, while we're on the topic of the playoffs, Marion's had major disappearing acts--when it counts--throughout his career. He was awful three years ago throughout the entire postseason, got dominated by Lamar last year, and was mediocre this past year. Lamar on the other hand has always stepped it up in the playoffs. He was the one Lakers starter who showed any heart this past year against Phoenix: 19/13 per game with a shoulder needing surgery. Lamar is a heck of a player, is by all accounts a great person... and we might trade him for a guy who complains about playing with Steve friggin' Nash. Ugh. Ugh I say.
Posted by: Ed | September 26, 2007 at 02:35 AM
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0925marion-ON.html
It's AK47 vs. LO ... who do you think will win? It's getting hotter and more exciting... I hope that next week we will have a new Player on the team !
Posted by: jeff_pinoy | September 26, 2007 at 03:15 AM
I don't like the trade. If we trade LO we need to get taller, not shorter. Where would our rebounds come from?
Posted by: rdlee | September 26, 2007 at 05:13 AM
AK,
"I challenge folks to name four other players (if that many) who can guard Tony Parker AND Tim Duncan."
Not at the same time, though. That wouldn't be realistic.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | September 26, 2007 at 05:57 AM
As much as I love Lamar, I think the Matrix would be an upgrade. He's a more natural second scoring option and an aggressive defender.
The best deal for the Lakers, though, would be to trade Kwame instead. Marion and Odom as starting forwards would solve a lot of problems.
Walton could come off the bench and help the second unit. We'd still have Bynum, Mihm, Turiaf, and VladRad.
Either way, both teams solve some of their issues. If Cook &/or Sasha get thrown into the deal, all the better.
(Sorry, Faith. You've declared Sasha as "studly," but I'm certain you'd be willing to sacrifice your "true love" for the good of the team :)
Posted by: Rick Friedman | September 26, 2007 at 06:20 AM
Ed - Look at it this way. If Marion is a better defender than Lamar, then the Lakers are getting better defensively.
I agree that Marion has had talented point guards feeding him in his career. But come on - why would you need Marion to create his own shot when the other wing can torch a team by himself. Marion may have one the ugliest jumpshots in the NBA, but he has shown time and again he can hit that open look.
One thing I am concerened about though, is the fact that Marion is not as an effective post scorer like Lamar was. Granted Lamar had a tendency to drift out to the perimeter to shoot 3s, but the boy could bang down low if he wanted to. This will put a lot more pressure on Bynum to start using his kareem moves and dominate the low block. Is he ready for that yet? only time will tell.
My view is, as AK rightly said, if the Lakers can get an all star and proven defensive player AND keep Bynum and Kwame, then the Lakers would have pulled off an unlikely coup.
Posted by: Caesar | September 26, 2007 at 06:45 AM
In all my years as a basketball fan I've never seen an uglier shot than Shawn Marion's. I remember cringing every time I saw a Lakers/Suns game because I knew that no matter how ugly it was, he probably wasn't going to miss the shot. Now I may have to swallow that throughout the entire season? We"ll see....with Mitch and Jim at the helm, I'm not so sure of anything nowadays. However, it sure doesn't help things for poor Lamar. It must suck to be involved in trade rumors just days before training camp and I'd really hate to see Lamar go. I'm not sure where I stand on this one. Why can't they take Kwame, Cook, and Bynum instead? (I know I'm dreaming
On another note, big boy Andrew Bynum was interviewed yesterday and here's what he said about Kobe's comments on trading him for J. Kidd..."Really, I never heard that. It's not a big deal to me. It sounds like a frustrated veteran saying something because things didn't go right last season. BUT WHO WOULDN'T WANT JASON KIDD?"
So I tell you again...Bynum would trade his own ass for J.Kidd.
Posted by: EastCoastJessie | September 26, 2007 at 06:56 AM
Marion to Kobe: F-U!
"I think I would fit right in," Marion said. "People talk about the triangle offense all the time, like it is impossible. But it's an offense. Wherever you play, you have to learn the offense. It's not that complicated. You pass, you cut, you slash. Offense is offense. And I would love to play with Kobe."
Posted by: McGarnagle | September 26, 2007 at 07:12 AM
Yeah Ed is spot on. Marion has benefitted tremendously from the Suns' system. Most of his points come from put-backs, open 3s, and AMAZING feeds from Nash where Marion just needs to put in the hole. If you put a defender on Marion he gets his shot blocked every time because of his unorthodox shot. This is fine with the Suns because they have Nash, Barbosa, Amare, etc. and Marion can get his open looks, but the Marion would be the Lakers' #2, which he just won't be able to handle.
Marion is a terrific HELP defender. He gets steals from anticipated passing lanes and taking chances. He gets blocks by coming over from the weak side and using his leaping ability on unsuspecting slashers.
But Marion is a sub-par on-ball defender at any position. 1s, 2s, and 3s are a step quicker than he is and 4s are just too big and strong for him. Think about the teams in the west and who Marion would be guarding... Suns: Amare, Dallas: Dirk, San Antonio: Duncan, Utah: Boozer... he gets eaten alive in every one of these matchups.
Posted by: Sean | September 26, 2007 at 07:36 AM
"And I would love to play with Kobe."--SHAWN MARION
KLBeast,
Did u freaking hear that?? huh? LOL.
Posted by: danny | September 26, 2007 at 07:50 AM
Marion to the Lakers possible because he LIKES KOBE?
Marion to KL and Gunner = F-U!!
Posted by: BrandonC | September 26, 2007 at 07:57 AM
I'm with Ed. I hate the idea of giving away LO for Marion. I love Marion, but I want a PF in that deal too. Can we get Phoenix's (actually, Atlanta's) draft pick in that deal too?
The Suns are more desperate on this one than the Lakers. I'd rather we wait this out.
AK, if they put Marion on Nash, who are they going to put on LO?
Posted by: hariyahu | September 26, 2007 at 07:59 AM
Unless we make this a three-way trade, and get AK-47 *and* Millsap from the Jazz.
Posted by: hariyahu | September 26, 2007 at 08:00 AM
I would definitely do the deal, and I think Phoenix would prefer LO to AK-47 for the simple fact that the dollars make more sense for a team that seems deathly, deathly afraid of paying the luxury tax.
Some people will say that they would miss LO's ability to score from the post, but I disagree. The only time LO really scores around the bucket is when he drives (to his left) or gets a put back (usually with his left). He really hasn't shown the ability to be a back-to-the-basket player and actually spends more time roaming the perimeter than banging down low. Losing his "ability to score from the post" wouldn't be a problem at all, it never really existed.
I think this trade would be a big step in a positive direction and would be made even more attractive because we wouldn't have to give up Bynum or EC (that's Kwame or Expriring Contract) who could either become really good (Bynum) or moved for another piece later on (EC).
Posted by: Andrew Z | September 26, 2007 at 08:05 AM
SEPTEMBER 26, 2007- A NEW DAY And the Los Angeles Lakers front office, in an attempt
to return the team to its former glory, does ..... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Therefore TODAY: ( SEPTEMBER 26 2007) is dedicated to: NO ONE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PAST HONOREES: MIKE TENIENTE, EDWIN GUECO, KLBEAST, GENERIC_ONE, A.K. J.J.,
LAKER TOM, SONNY BELFAST, JOREMA, TALIQ, DAVID WHANG, THA SHOW, FAITH, BOB
RICK FRIEDMAN, HOBBITMAGE, FATTY, KOBE APOLOGIST, ANGRY LAKER, ANDREW Z,
EXHELODRVR, THA SHOW, TWOODY, WESJOENIXON, KWAME BROWN, WEST SIDE JESSIE
LONG TIME LAKER FAN, DICE8UP, FEARLESS WHACKJOB, TAOSHUM, LAKERGURL,
CHARLES
NEXT HONOREE ( )
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMING NBA EVENTS
Oct. 1 NBA Europe Live training camps begin
Oct. 2 Remaining NBA training camps open
Oct. 6-11 NBA Europe Live tournament
Oct. 6 Start of NBA preseason schedule
Oct. 26 NBA preseason ends
Oct. 29 NBA rosters set for opening night, 6 p.m. EDT
Oct 30 Start of NBA regular season Houston at The Freakin Lakers
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
55 WIN BANDWAGON MEMBERS:
(1) Laker Tom (2) Marty (3) HUBBIT (4) Fearless Whack Job (5) Mamba24/10
(6) David Whang (7) BD (8) Dan Dan the Laker Fan (9) Long Time Laker Fan
(10) Roky (11) JoninJapan(In Canada) 12) JUNO (13) KEIFO,
(14) Alexinho17 (15) TALIQ (16) GENERIC_ONE (17) VIOLATER
(18) Twoody (19) SLO Gal (20) HobbitIMage (21) dice8up (22) KIWI
Members at heart
(1) Bob (2) Faith (3) LakerLover
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHAWN MARION TO LAKERS BANDWAGON
(1) FearlessWhackJob (2) Rick Freidman (3) Mamba24
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROLL THE DICE ON JO BANDWAGON
(1).Tha Show (2) Andrew Z (3).Xodus (4).Mamba24 (5)Edwin Gueco
(6). Exhelodrvr (7). Long Time Laker Fan (8) Me (9)Fearless whackjob (10). LakerBake
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAKE A DEAL BEFORE TRAINING CAMP BANDWAGON
(1) Laker Bake (2) Gino (3) Trip Game (4) Jay Jay
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SIGN SUN YUE BANDWAGON
(1).FearlessWhackJob (2). Mamba24
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SACRAMENTO KINGS 50 WIN BANDWAGON
1. Sonnybelfast 2. Ron Artest
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BYNUM BREAKOUT BANDWAGON
(1) LakerFaze (2) Mamba24 (?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sasha Breakout Bandwagon
(1) LongimeLakerFan (2) Mamba24
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AND NOW ROLL CALL
(1) FAITH, MIKE T. TALIQ, Edwin Gueco,, KEIFO, Mamba24Fan4Life, Fan of Mamba, Wolf, Man
KIWI, WOW, PEACE, J_COOL, DAVID WHANG, ADAM KILEY, LAKERSRYDEORDIE, CLEON
FISH_GUY,TIM-4-SHOW, THA_ SHOW, WESJOENIXON, BAYWOO, THE_D, SBPIMP,
CHARLES, Precious, NEVER, CALI KING, RICK FRIEDMAN,THIRTY2, EXHELODRVR,
GENERIC_ONE, TWOODY, JJ, AJAX, MITCHELL., LAKERTOM, LAKERFAN, CHARLES,
KHANG VMAN, KOREY, XTRO, MCGARNAGLE, GUGY, GDChild,Laker4Life, Laker Seth
KL BEAST, Jorema, FearlessWhackJob, MARTY, JANDRO, LAKERFAZE, PhxLkrFAN,
TexasLaker, BOB, TreacherousBalloons, EagleBoy, JR., EASTCOASTJESSIE, Zakee,
Tully Moxness, KobeRocks, David Peterson, centralk, 244Life, SamII, vi lakerfan,CDUB0512
Swettual, Utzworld, Andrew Z, LAL Fan, BRANDON C., Kinglakernidas, BlackMamba24,
FKILLAH, CYRUS(VENTRILIQUIST), RespectMyAuthorith, Waterboy, Hariyahu, HUBBIT
ZEN, SARCOCOP,Staples24, Bobby, COMPTONS FINEST, MIGUELINHO, Greek Dude,
SOCALIFE, HAL9000, Greekdude, Michael J, Michael H, Michael A., Rick Friedman,
Gunner24, GINO, FATTY, CBUCK,LAKERGURL, CRITICAL BEATDOWN, PFUNK36,
PAUL LEE, Jay EL, SocalSpider , WEAVE MAN, JON KAVULIC, Tajluck, Alexinho17
BERKLEYLAKER, Dice8Up DION, KARL, CRAIG, MITCHELL, Lakers4Life, Ryan,GiantSquid
JR, Dascilla, tellitlikeitisNik Kannan, GABE, SEAN P., HanSoulFood, HollywoodJack,
Jay Jay, TaosHum, HOBBITIMAGE, Caeser, Obel, CHITOWNLAKER, ANGRYLAKER
wiZo, MagicShaq, HugoBoss, OSCAR, RDLEE, RealityBites, LakerLarry, Bucky, LEELO,
Juno, LakerLifer, C.S. JOVA, BLAZE1BX, Tripgame3, TSPHERE, SIXONEZERO, MJCMAN32
Mfeige, Reggie, Hollywood Jack, Reality Check Time, Jack In Hollywood, SLO Gal
JONINJAPAN(INCANADA), VIOLATER, LT Laker Fan, , KATE, TROY, Mainor, Caesar
JEFF, ANDY B., SWANWORLD, PUPLE&GOLD_4EVA, BENNY BLANCA,CS in Virg
EMMA, TIM IN SYDNEY RISING STAR, LakerBake, JuanMan888,Blkthght06, Man
Any_One_mouse, 10milliondollarZen, Shiva, Laker_Hopeful, LakerDawg, East Nyboer
,Ghost of Spiderman, Steve in Denver Guy Owanlele, Lincoln Laker, Houston Laker
MITCH KUPCHAK, JERRY BUSS, PHIL JACKSON, KOBE BRYANT, CLEON
Marc Gasol, Sun Yue, Shamond, Williams, Ronny Turiaf, V. Radmanovic, Jennifer
Maurice Evans, Lamar Odom, Derek Fisher, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, KOBE FROM MANILAS
Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Coby Karl, Chris Mihm, Sasha Vujacic
Jordan Farmar, Jarvis Critterton, JERMAINE ONEAL???, Larry Fulcher
ALL TOGETHER NOW:
WE ARE THE FREAKIN LA LAKERS THE WINNERS OF 14 NBA TITLES
THE HOME OF WILT, KAREEM, GEORGE MIKAN, SHAQ, MAGIC, KOBE,
ELGIN BAYLOR, JERRY WEST, PAT RILEY, JAMES WORTHY, SILK
COACHED BY THE 9 TIME TITLE WINNER PHIL (9RINGS) JACKSON ANDAND
NO ONE AND NOTHING WILL EVER DIVIDE OR CONQUER
LAKERS TODAY LAKERS TOMORROW LAKERS FOREVER
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 26, 2007 at 08:09 AM
I'd definitely do Marion for Odom (and don't get me wrong, I love Odom's all-around game). The thing is really about energy and a defensive mindset. Marion woud be a jumpstart... the energizer bunny/matrix. We'd be losing size though and I've said before that I'm already concerned with depth, durability and toughness with our bigs. We would most certainly want to bring in a solid vet -minimum banger (and I'm not talking about Slava although I do sorely miss the Ukranian shooting 'bot).
Dave M
Posted by: Dave M | September 26, 2007 at 08:11 AM
Thanks for the thread AK. I agree with you that Marion is an underrated player, but he's one with flaws. He doesn't create his own shot well, and I'm not sold on his mental state. Seriously, if he ddin't like being, in his mind, the third wheel behind Amare and Nash (although he's been the number 1 fantasy pick for the last three years now), how is he going to react to playing second fiddle behind Kobe?
That siad, I do think he'd help us in rebounding and in defence. I just have questions about how happy he'd be here. I mean, if he's unhappy playing with a guy who basically sets the table for him all game, how will he react to being here?
Be interesting to see what happens. I think LO would fit in Phoenix very easily. He'd be almost perfect, offensively anyway.
Posted by: Michael A | September 26, 2007 at 08:13 AM
This would definitely be an upgrade. It would make the team somewhat undersized if he starts at PF; if someone currently on the roster (Turiaf, Mihm, or Vlad) could play decently at PF, then Marion could play SF for some teams/combinations.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | September 26, 2007 at 08:13 AM
No one want to play with Kobe?
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7266426
Posted by: coxman | September 26, 2007 at 08:16 AM
I don't know why Brian Cook's name would come up in the deal. A straight Odom for Marion deal works under the CBA and even more importantly (from Robert Sarver's perspective) after the deal the Suns would go from being approximately $1.36 million over the luxury tax threshold to approximately $1.56 million UNDER the tax. That's huge for them, proven by the fact that they have sold off numerous first round picks and valuable big men defenders (Kurt Thomas) for cash. AK-47 would provide the same immediate relief for the Suns since he makes the same as LO this season, but his contract is much longer and gets more and more expensive. That becomes a problem when Steve Nash asks for an extension.
This deal might actually have some legs to it.
Posted by: Andrew Z | September 26, 2007 at 08:17 AM
The lakers should not trade Lamar,because he and Kobe is hungrey what ever team has him in the lineup this season is going to benefit. if Mitch can pull this one off with out having to trade Lamar they really dose not want to trade him,and still get the matrix this is going to be a very good team this season,however you can't get something for nothing or in this case somebody for nobody they are not going to trade Andrew. Any team that want's to involve him in a trade can forget it that makes Lamar their second option either way both teams can benefit if this is not just another rumor.
Posted by: Laker Fan | September 26, 2007 at 08:17 AM
Marion to KL and Gunner: F-U!!
Posted by: max | September 26, 2007 at 08:20 AM
At last - a reason for me to talk on the Blog!
If we can somehow pull this off by keeping Lamar, that'll be great. But that ain't gonna happen. I say pull the trigger, then go back to Indy and work Cake Boy/Snowboard Freak/Sasha for JO. Between Kwame & Vlad's $$$ alone, the pieces should fit.
Posted by: utzworld - THE BANNER HOLDER | September 26, 2007 at 08:25 AM
please let this happen...please. both players would love this trade....
Posted by: bob | September 26, 2007 at 08:25 AM
Marion for Lamar is a move that I'll actually make. And given his size and his natural nack for rebounding is something that will really help the Lakers. And LO helps the Suns simply because he doesn't have to be the big scorer all the time, he's the versitle role player.
In addition he's a consistent scorer with the ability to make his own play (cleaning up offensive boards for dunks, moving without the ball with a scorer on the wing would help the entire offensive get good looks(Vlad, DFish, Walton)) and frees up energy for Kobe to extend on defense.
With the Marion move it actually allows other veterans to come to play for the minimum because you have two consistent go-to guys. The same reason a Jason Kidd move will work. It doesn't make them instant condenders but there's more of a chance that some moves can be done.
Posted by: A.Bunker | September 26, 2007 at 08:32 AM
ed,
the thing with marion, is he doesn't need the ball to score and make plays. he gets open, does the little things. while lamar is a guy who needs the ball to make things happen. I don't think the suns would do it, but it would benefit the lakers a lot more than the suns. Although lamar would be perfect in coast-to-coast with the suns.
Posted by: greek dude | September 26, 2007 at 08:37 AM
Trade or no, it looks like the Lakers are going to be depending on Andrew Bynum's development for any shot at contention.
Excerpts from Michael Jordan in the latest GQ:
"When I involved John Paxson or Steve Kerr, it was built on Triangle, but it was also built on my mentality to say "Hey, I'm going to see if this guy can knock down the big shot." If it was Game 7, would I make that pass? Probably not. In the NBA, you need someone who can break away from the system. The Triangle won't work without a Michael Jordan or a Kobe Bryant"
"I know how I played the game. I know the sacrifices I made and the tunnel vision I had. And to look at a kid and say he should ahve the same thing is unfair. I learned that when I was in Washington, after drafting Kwame Brown and those guys ... I had to realize their passion may not to be a better basketball player ... If I do see that dedication, I recognize it in an instant. I'd say Kobe Bryant would have some of those characteristics, but a lot of the thingss Kobe does I would never have done [interviewer: care to elaborate on that?] That's just an example. I ain't going to go further on that one."
Posted by: Kobe's T | September 26, 2007 at 08:47 AM
I do like the Mantis. He's the only Sun (outside of maybe Nash) that I don't want to strangle.
I'm not sure the trade would make the Lakers better though. Lamar does so many things for the team.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | September 26, 2007 at 08:49 AM
marion fits the "pippen" role to kobe's jordan more than lamar does. marion is just as good a rebounder (both avg. ~10) and is a better defender. what we gain in defense, we lose in ball-handling and assists.
with that said, i still think this is a lateral move. lamar has shown to be a decent #2, the problem is the supporting cast.
Posted by: john | September 26, 2007 at 08:49 AM
Actually Marion for Odom isnt a good trade, sure Marion will help during the regular season but Odom when he is healthy owns Marion. And since the Lakers have trouble getting past Phoenix in the playoffs it would actually be harder to do that if the players swap teams.
Besides Marion will go east not to a western rival, this is all just media hype.
Posted by: BrandonC | September 26, 2007 at 08:50 AM
As a Laker fan, I'd rather see Kobe traded to the Suns than LO. Let me explain why:
If we trade Kobe and Mihm to the Lakers for Marion, Barbosa and Atlanta's (unprotected) #1 from next year (which is something I think the Suns would be more than willing to do) , this is what we would look like:
Kwame/Bynum
LO/Turiaf/Cook
Marion/Walton/Vlad Rad
Barbosa/Mo Evans/Vujacic
Farmar/Crittenton/Fish
While our back-court, would be so-so, our front-court would be awesome! Marion becomes the designated #1 guy, and between him and LO, we'd outrebound every other team in the league. We could either keep the draft pick to get a stud like (Mayo or Rose) or trade it with Kwame's contract to upgrade our backcourt (Ben Gordon, Corey Maggette, etc.)
Compare that with a line-up that starts Kwame or Ronny at PF. We'd be killed by every team in the league that has a decent PF.
Posted by: hariyahu | September 26, 2007 at 09:01 AM
I forgot to add with the Marion move, the Suns High octane offense moves slower which means they won't be as effective.
The reason why they've been effective is becuase who is usually the guy on that squad who clears the boards that starts the break and catches up at the end of play to stuff in the dunk? Marion.
Who was the guy in 2006 that basically played out of his mind while being "mentally weak" as Amare was lost for the season? Marion.
Posted by: A. Bunker | September 26, 2007 at 09:03 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHAWN MARION TO LAKERS BANDWAGON
(1) AK (2) FearlessWhackJob (3) Rick Freidman (4) Mamba24 (5) Jeff Pinoy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 26, 2007 at 09:07 AM
Pull the trigger Dr. Buss! Get the Matrix here in L.A.!
Posted by: xtro | September 26, 2007 at 09:08 AM
I joined the sentiments of Brandon C and John K about adding Marion at the expense of LO. Marion is not a ball carrier or a rebounder but a spot shooter and post player which can be done by LO. This is different kind trade with JO. JO is a rebounder and a good fixture in a triangle. I would rather have Stoudemire than Marion or exchange Kwame, Cook and guard for Marion then that will upgrade the Lakers. With this trade, it's a change of face and style but disadvantageous to the Lakers. I hope it doesn't go through.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | September 26, 2007 at 09:10 AM
"And I would love to play with Kobe."--SHAWN MARION
KLBeast,
Did u freaking hear that?? huh? LOL.
Posted by: danny | September 26, 2007 at 07:50 AM
The spammer is tongue tied! LOL
Posted by: Lakergurl | September 26, 2007 at 09:14 AM
John - Dont get it twisted man, Marion may be hell of a player but he is no Pippen. Although I agree that his lack of ballhandling and passing compared to Lamar will be offset by his boards and defense. The fact that Marion can be effective without the ball is HUGE...Im sure Luke can pick up a bit of the ballhandling and distribution slack given his skillset...plus an effective 2nd scoring option means less shots for Kobe and more assists.
BrandonC - who are the teams in the East that can offer a forward like Lamar? Lamar's 13 mil salary looks real attractive to a team that had to let Kurt Thomas go cos of cap reasons.
Posted by: Caesar | September 26, 2007 at 09:15 AM
If we don't make this trade then we are in for another long season.
If we don't make this trade then we are in for another long season.
Posted by: Zakee | September 26, 2007 at 09:16 AM
I keep seeing this BS that Odom "owns" Marion. Tell me, in the playoffs last year against the Lakers, which game did Odom "own" the Matrix?
Game 1: 16 pts/16 rebounds
Game 2: 18 pts/10 rebounds - a blowout so he played fewer minutes
Game 3: 10 pts/4 rebounds - bad game, ok?
Game 4: 22 pts/11 rebounds
Game 5: 26 pts/10 rebounds
Wow! that is some level of "ownership"!
Come on, this would be an awesome trade for both teams. We need somebody who is not afraid to shoot and his defense is a big bonus, plus he's durable. Odom isn't working out here, everybody knows it, he's a great guy but he's a much better fit for Phoenix.
Only thing I'm not sure about is if Matrix would play PF or SF for us. In theory, Radmanovic could move up to PF at points, Mihm and Turiaf could give minutes there, Kwame??? maybe a few for a while until we possibly move him for a real PF? Would be interesting to see which way the Lakers go.
Posted by: TaosHum | September 26, 2007 at 09:17 AM
I think this trade puts PHX in the Conference Finals before it gets the Lakers out of the first round.
Also, Marion's J makes me feel sick, like that one time the doctor removed my cast and I smelled my arm funk.
Posted by: The D | September 26, 2007 at 09:17 AM
BrandonC
I don't know what you see in LO, but number don't mean nothing if you don't get the W!!!!!
Marion and Fisher are going to help Kobe return to the promise land. Plus he plays DEFENSE with energy which filters down to ther rest of teh team. He is like a leader in his own way.
Lo is far from being a leader!!!!!
Posted by: Zakee | September 26, 2007 at 09:18 AM
Terrible, terrible idea. Marion is what, 6'7? LOL. Odom OWNED him two years in a row, once with one shoulder. At SF, sure., At PF? give me a break. If we could deal luke/vlad/cook for him u bet. But we have yet to see what Lamar can do, when he is A) not wracked with grief over the passing of his son (last year) and B) debilitating injury. Marion is a whiny, ugly shooting, ugly looking undersized player who excelled at Defense on a team where no one played any. Whatever.
Posted by: Michael | September 26, 2007 at 09:20 AM
Jon K,
What has LO done for us lately?????????
He has never made the Allstar team. But I guess that is OK because he made the allstar team.
Zakee is back on the BLOG for the Laker up and coming season.
Smush is gone and next is hopefully LO.
Not that I don;t like LO, but he just doesn't fit with Kobe's personality.
Plus Marion said that him and Kobe talk and are friends.
It is all about the CHEMISTRY.
Posted by: Zakee | September 26, 2007 at 09:22 AM
Marion for Odom:
I like it. I would like it better if we can keep Odom and add Matrix in some way. But if we also found a way to get AK47 and the Matrix that would be some wheeling and dealing for ages. I made that work on the trade machine, but that is strictly a numbers game with no regards to talent or intangables.
T-Woody
Posted by: TWoody | September 26, 2007 at 09:24 AM
Phoenix was the best team in the NBA last year.
Why would Sarver mess with the chemistry of a team a couple of wrong calls away from getting over the top?
BTW: Wasn't Cook the second best scorer on the team per 48 minutes last year? Why toss him away when he can add to another trade?
BTW2: If Kwame's expiring contract is so attractive, why has no team shown any interest in it? I bet it expires without fanfare.
Posted by: Vman | September 26, 2007 at 09:26 AM
Coxman,
I agree with you that many here comes to this blog to snides Laker fans that no one wants to play with Kobe with those F U remarks. Well, this is what Marion told Sporting News:
"You have a great organization, great ownership there with the Lakers. I don't see no problems with playing there," Marion told The Sporting News.
Let truth set us free that Marion wants to play with Kobe and respects the Lakers. Is it a fair trade? Yes, it is. Will it be good for the Lakers? It depends on the development of our PG and the Center. I remember the time when Nash was not with the Suns, Marion & Co. could not pass on the Lakers. He will depend much on a feeder similar to James Worthy to Magic. I still prefer LO who has the leadership and coming to be acquainted with the triangle. I love his slashing from coast to coast and I would not want the Suns to acquire him. Give Vlad, Kwame, Walton (who is really an Arizonian) or anybody but try to retain LO and Kobe.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | September 26, 2007 at 09:27 AM
Kobe likes to play with that understand how to finish out games. He wants to play with someone that actually wants to be the best. LO just settles night in and night out. He is just not built to play alongside a player liek KOBE. Pressure burst pipes and LO pipes always burst. Marion just like Scottie will do whatever is needed, night in aand night out.
Marion the real Scottie.
LO tried to do what scottie did for Mike, but just is not that type of player. He is not have that FIRE in his eyes and that enthusiasm that Marion has.
MARION DUNKS ON PEOPLE AND SCREAMS IN THEIR FACE.
LO DOESN'T DUNK ON ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!1 SCREAMS IN NOBODIES FACE!!!
Posted by: Zakee | September 26, 2007 at 09:28 AM
Marion would be an upgrade over Odom dramatically. Look at the states from last year.
Marion-
PPG 17.5
RPG 9.8
APG 1.7
SPG 2.0
BPG 1.5
FG% 0.524
FT% 0.810
3P% 0.317
MPG 37.6
Odom-
PPG 15.9
RPG 9.8
APG 4.8
SPG 0.9
BPG 0.6
FG% 0.468
FT% 0.700
3P% 0.297
MPG 39.3
Now i know stats arent everything, but they are somthing. Marion is alot more explosive he can actully take the ball to the basket and dunk it! not take some weak lefty layup that everyone knows is coming an gets blocked!
He has been a 4 time allstar IN THE WEST!
I understand we lose a starting powerforward but we upgrade at anthor position. Plus if we were to go small a line up
Fisher
Kobe
Luke
Marion
Kwame
teams wouldnt know what to do. they cant put a powerforward on Marion because he is quicker and much more athletic an explosive.
I say do the deal and see what happens. We cant really get any lower then we are right now and to say the least we are bringing in a 4 time allstar.
Also on the upside like AK noted Marion hasnt missed more then 3 games since 2000 maybe this year the team can ACTULLY build some chemistry because the core of the team will be on the court.
On anthor note noone knows what kind of player LO will be after his surgerys and even if he'll ever be 100% again.
PUT ME ON THE MARION BANDWAGON!!!
Posted by: Steve From New Jersey | September 26, 2007 at 09:48 AM
Hiyyyoooo! This year is looking both interesting and promising. Get the Matrix, Bynum improves, Vlad Rad got a haircut, PG is much improved, Kobe's PO'd, what more could you want?
http://tinyurl.com/yre599
Then there were the workouts. Zarzana designed a program that makes Bynum "more effective at his position." They worked out four to six hours, six to seven days a week in Atlanta.
Bynum ran a mile in 8 minutes, 49 seconds when they began. Zarzana said he's shaved more than two minutes off that time.
Bynum improved his bench press from 265 pounds to 305, and his squats from 265 pounds 10 times to 405 pounds 10 times. His body fat dropped from 12 percent to nine.
He ran 50- and 100-meter sprints. He did sprints with a parachute on his back, 50 to 60 yards on straightaways, backpedals at 45-degree angles and zigzags.
And of course there were basketball drills that former NBA star Gerald Wilkins put Bynum through.
"The kid has worked extremely hard, and on his own accord," Zarzana said by phone. "It didn't take anybody to fire this kid up but himself. He realized going into his third year that he's no longer a rookie and he's expected to be a starter now. He came to me and said, 'I want to be the best center in this game. Can you help me?' "
Jackson said he would be happy with Bynum's progress when he can average 15 points and 10 rebounds. However, Bynum has impressed his teammates in pickup games at the Lakers' training facility.
"He looks real good out here," Luke Walton said by phone. "He looks stronger. He jumps better. He's definitely improved since last year. I'm kind of excited to see if he keeps it up."
Posted by: TaosHum | September 26, 2007 at 09:51 AM
McGarnagle
Marion to KLBeast: "F-U"
"I think I would fit right in," Marion said. "People talk about the triangle offense all the time, like it is impossible. But it's an offense. Wherever you play, you have to learn the offense. It's not that complicated. You pass, you cut, you slash. Offense is offense. And I would love to play with Kobe."
i stand corrected on Marion. Now 2 NBA players want to play with The Malcontent.
Posted by: KLBeast (Real One) | September 26, 2007 at 09:51 AM
John,
"i still think this is a lateral move. lamar has shown to be a decent #2, the problem is the supporting cast."
This is the most accurate description of what the Lakers needs. The supporting casts are very unrealiable. Lets start with the Centers: Bynum, Kwame & MIhm including Ronnie Turiaf. Who is stable among those 4players to play the 5. Then, go to the SF like Walton, Vlad, Cook who among these three forwards are reliable enough to play an extended playoffs. This sets of players are all very inconsistent from game to game, always a guessing whether it is their day or an off day. Why? Because they are all developmental type of players, they are not good stars in the first place they are mere role players. Remember when the Lakers got J. R. Rider, Mitch Richmond and Rice, these players were acquired to fillers not as a star players. Therefore, having said that Kupchak should have applied some bad aid solutions by replacing the scrubs and put there good active Euros who have excelled in their countries. LO represents the last piece of Shaq trade, why not revisit the JO trade, at least there is a semblance of Shaq than Marion. The Lakers need a reliable Center, decongest that area and the triangle will work. Think it this way, if Kobe, Marion and Vlad are hitting bricks who will be the clean up man in the Center. Bynum? until I see the kid play this year I will hold any kind of opinion but based on historical pattern he's ready for College but not in NBA. Kwame, an inconsistent fixture a big body with a heavy feet. Mihm? I have not seen him for the last two years so I reserve comment but based on the workouts done by other teams, with his height no team would extend him an MLE contract. That's an omen, the experts think he is not ready for big games but another filler.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | September 26, 2007 at 09:51 AM
Dear everyone who doesn't like this trade:
I've loved LO since the Tark ruined his career recruiting him, since Harrick landed him at R.I., and since he scored 30pts in his Clipper debut. I've always defended his abilities, particularly his uncanny rebounding talents.
But face it: he's not the best fit for this team, a team in DESperate need of a 2nd scorer, a guy that can play off of the ball, a guy who won't treat the ball like a hot potato when he has an open shot. LO is not afraid to shoot, but it's not his style to find open spots on the floor and wait for a pass.
Though Marion is probably not as good an interior defender as Odom, he's better on the perimeter and in help situations, and that's what we need. The rebounding is a wash numbers-wise, though I'd probably give LO a slight edge in this dept. LO's ballhandling is obviously superior but this has become a wasted asset. Marion is a better finisher. As much as I love LO, his missed layups are starting to piss me off.
I like this trade because Marion can play more of a defined role. Kobe creates so much havoc, and is so unpredictable, that the rest of team needs to lock down to maximize its potential. This is exactly how Jordan's Bulls operated. Yeah, Pippen brought the ball up sometimes, but then he got out of there - he didn't try to break his man down or back him into the paint.
The only downside to this trade is how scary Phoenix would be with the addition of the league's best ballhandling small forward. But as a hoops fan, that's ultimately a good thing. The Lakers can't handle them at this point anyway, so what have we got to lose?
Posted by: est nyboer | September 26, 2007 at 09:51 AM
I don't like this trade. For one reason...I remember what happened in the 2006 playoffs, and LO OWNED Marion. I wouldn't want this to happen, they already beat us without LO, they may go all the way with LO. LO is the perfect 3rd option, perfect enough to get them to the top. What we need is a 2nd option to add to LO and Kobe.
Posted by: Faith | September 26, 2007 at 09:53 AM
My favorite quote from the previous thread was this one by Gunner:
SHAWN MARION SOON TO TELL KOBE: "F-U"
Not only has he no basketball savvy but Gunner can't he predict the immediate future when it's already become the past (Mario had let us in on the news two hours earlier).
I hope those bloggers who persist in thinking the F-U riff is funny will now realize why it continually smells like stale vomit. It's sometimes best to keep your mouth closed and run to the toilet rather than subjecting the friends on the blog to such outrageous outpouring.
Can we now consider this to be the end of the F-U posts? Thank you, Gunner, in any case for discrediting the whole vile operation.
Posted by: Tsphere | September 26, 2007 at 09:55 AM
OK OK I'll stop posting my "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" post for a day in honor of this possibility.
Ya its screwed up for us since we already have two small forwards signed to long term deals (and the Matrix is not the kind of 4 we need in the triangle), but you DON'T turn down an All-Star caliber player when your franchise player will leave if you don't get one.
Maybe Rad can play some 4 or maybe a Bynum - Kwame tandem will work, or maybe Bird will relent once Odom is gone and agree to an "anybody on our roster except Kobe&Matrix for JO" deal . But whatever, we have GOT to do this! NOW!
Posted by: Jay Jay | September 26, 2007 at 09:56 AM
Matrix for LO is NOT a good trade. It still leaves a huge hole at the 4. And in case you didn't notice we play in the western conference where it's dominated at the 4. Duncan, Dirk, Brand, Amare, Boozer, etc. Also, it makes phx a real time contender! LO fits that system PERFECTLY! Do we really want to make the team that knocked us out of the playoffs better??? At best, this is a lateral trade. Only makes sense if Kobe is REALLY tired of playing with Lamar.
The BEST deal is the one that would send LO to Phx, The Matrix to Utah along with Farmar/our #1 Pick, and send Kirilenko and Millsap to LA!!! Millsap is a beast! 7 points and 5 rebounds in 18 minutes/game! Holy S**t! Gives us a prospect at the 5 (bynum) and the 4 (millsap) and the 1 (Crittenton) to build on! And we get a win-now line up. We could move Kwame for ANYTHING (think Juwan Howard) and we are a dramatically better team. Defense, rebounding, scoring, and the future!!! This is the deal that needs to happen!!!
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=3002~617~434~3015~510&teams=26~21~13~13~26&te=&cash=
Would give us
Fisher/Crittenton/Coby Karl
Bryant/Evans
Kirilenko/Walton/Vlade
Howard/Millsap/Turiaf
Mihm/Bynum
Posted by: BSULLI | September 26, 2007 at 09:57 AM
BrandonC:
Excellent post! Your point about Odom “owning Marion during the playoffs” would be my biggest concern about making this trade. While the trade might improve the Lakers, it would probably improve the Suns even more, which would not be good.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | September 26, 2007 at 09:57 AM
Leaving a disgruntled Marion in Phoenix might be good for the Lakers. Hopefully it'll blow up sometime during the season. Giving them Odom is an upgrade for them because Odom does everything. It still doesn't answer their need for a true big man to guard Tim Duncan. Odom for Marion would only shuffle things for Phoenix but it won't take them to the top.
Marion in Los Angeles does very little outside of what Odom brings. In the last two season in the playoffs Odom and Marion have been going at it. I thought Odom got the best of Marion. But I guess you can say it was a draw. I like Odom's height over Marions. What is Marion? 6'7 or 6'8 right?
It's a bad deal for the Lakers.
mike
Posted by: Michael C. Teniente | September 26, 2007 at 10:00 AM
For the longest time, barely educated but highly opinionated columnists and other such blowhards, flew the kite that "No one wants to play with Kobe", enter the summer of 2007 and everyone wants to play with Kobe. So, the pertinent question is, what changed? Either said "Journalists" with more opinion than facts, where making stuff up to begin with or Kobe has taken to bribing other players to say they want to play in LA. The same summer where the Heat couldn’t get Charlie Bell despite over bidding for his services, Kobe as teammate is the starter kit for trade demands, Tom Ziller back away from the window. Strange, how supposed “unbiased” observers try to pass off their deeply warped views as insider information, with the costly consequence that an athlete's reputation is disparaged. I wish sports commentators and writers will state the fact and leave the gossiping to The New York Post.
Nedu
Posted by: I let the dogs out | September 26, 2007 at 10:01 AM
I don't like this trade as much a s most do. Marion is a much better defender than odom but Odom is much more versitile offensily. It would be a nice to put matrix on Nash and Parker but odom is a mismatch for everyone with his size speed and the fact that he's left handed. I also believe odom plays well against Matrix when they face off anyways and Odom fits much better with Phx style of ball than Marion does in the triangle. I believe Matrix is more of a product of the system he plays plus the pg he plays with. To me that sounds like we lose in this deal.Plus its about the person not the the player here. Matrix bitches and moans to much for me, Lakers can't have that plus kobe's whinning to. Talk about bad team chemistry, friends or not that's not going to work. I feel AK47 would be the better choice, Fans in Utah want him gone becuase Baron porterized him in the playoffs and they lost to warriors the same way most people here want to destroy the lakers because they lost to the suns(twice). We could pull him without giving up Bynum or odom. I truely believe since Odom lost his son he refocused himself and became an even greater basketball player last season he was a sure allstar befor he got injured. And I also belive that kobe really likes odom a la Caron and doesn't want him traded. I gurantee you once odom recovers from his surgury he will be an all star. Its just a question of if it will be with us or else where.
Also when it come to trade options I don't hear anyone sending out Walton. A lot of teams would really like to have him on their squads. So remember he can always be added in many of these trade rumors plus he makes a nice salary to match an incoming players
Posted by: richtown | September 26, 2007 at 10:05 AM
John Kavulic,
"I do like the Mantis. He's the only Sun (outside of maybe Nash)
that I don't want to strangle."
LOL!
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 26, 2007 at 10:06 AM
Sean,
In not the biggest Marion fan either but to say he's subpar is just wrong. Did you see the fits he was giving Parker when he was bringing the ball up court???
But agree he is more a poduct of the system he plays and who was passing him the ball. NO different than james worthy who was great player but a product of the system and talent around him.
Posted by: richtown | September 26, 2007 at 10:12 AM
Re: Marion - Odom
I am so on the fence with this one
Marion + better perimeter defense, decisive with his offensive manuevers.
Marion - can he create his own shot or are the stats more because of nash and the open system?
Odom + knows our system, a matchup problem especially if we play him on the 3
Odom - inconsistent, injury prone
Phoenix Line up and Bench
Nash, Bell, Diaw, Odom, Amare = Yikes
Barbosa, Hill, Jone, Skinner
Lakers Line up and Bench
Fish, Kobe, Marion, Turiaf, Bynum
Mihm-Injury Recovery?, Kwame-Injury Recovery and Mentally?, Vlad-Injury Mentality? Farmar, Evans, Walton (I didnt put Mihm and Kwame as starters due to their uncertain status)
Granted Marion had great stats during Marbury's tenure with Phoenix, but with the Traingle's downtempo style can he prevail offensively?
Lamar has shown flashes of brilliance but will he show and prove this year?
Sure we can trade for Marion and move him to the 3 spot, but Kwame-Mihm's health are uncertain. Lamar has played the 4 and I believe him banging around has added to his injury prone status.
Do you guys feel Mihm-Kwame-Bynum-Turiaf are ready to fill the 4-5 spots health and mentality wise?
Do you guys feel this is the season for Lamar to play the 3 and his last chance?
Love to my Laker Nation....
Posted by: Charles | September 26, 2007 at 10:14 AM
Kobe Apologist (aka Kobe's T)
Jordan Said: "I'd say Kobe Bryant would have some of those characteristics [ie, Jordanesqe], but a lot of the things Kobe does I would never have done [interviewer: care to elaborate on that?] That's just an example. I ain't going to go further on that one."
In other words, kobe is an a$$wipe. Kobe chasing shaq away for selfish reasons. kobe badmouthing teammates, GM and owner.
BTW, why are you hiding from your name "kobe apologist". still hiding? i'd be hiding to if were a kobe loyalist. where the hell is Mitchell or LakerTom? hiding until kobe scores 50 points for 10 straight games and laker post a 3-7 record, kobe loyalist will start yukking it up that "Jordan never did that haha-hoho-hehe shizzle and giggles".
BTW#2, does kobe still want to be a laker?
Posted by: KLBeast (Real One) | September 26, 2007 at 10:14 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20991968/
Marion told SportingNews.com that he has spoken with Bryant as recently as last weekend by phone, but "I've been friends with Kobe for a while, so we talk here and there anyway."
What Marion didn't say was that he called Kobe to tell him that although he had no interestt in playing with a notorious ballhog, he was seriously interested in hitting on one of the rejects among Dr Buss's girlfriends. That's what he meant when he said,
"You have a great organization, a great ownership there with the Lakers."
I'm sure KL and Gunner will tell us that that's the only possible interpretation of Marion's words.
Posted by: Tsphere | September 26, 2007 at 10:16 AM
We should absolutely NOT do this trade. Forget the marion vs odom debates, we shouldn't do this deal because it would help phoenix out of a jam.
If you read the background stories, marion/suns relationship is in tatters at this point, why would we want to help them fix that? Especially given that it ain't like he's 3 times better than odom (e.g. garnet). My take is leaving marion on their team helps us, dude wants out of there and will only be a headache for the suns.
So much so that they might consider trading him for bynum and kwame, but they would never do that trade for the same reason we shouldn't (i.e. they'd never want to help us out). I say we pass on Marion, if we're trading odom, I'd still go after Artest.
Trading for Artest is the kind of move that can give us the best defensive backcourt in the league. On the flip side Artest could turn out to be a nut job. But hey those are the type of risks that a gm has to live with. You roll the dice on artest and if it doesn't work out you don't renew his contract, but at least you can look KB24 straight in the eyes and go hey I made some moves, I gambled, I went out on a limb for you, baby please don't leave me for the knicks.
Roll the dice mitch, get artest for odom. Get us the lockdown defender we all crave for, and then let phil worry about keeping his wacko side off the court.
Posted by: Taliq | September 26, 2007 at 10:16 AM
I've been thinking about this trade all morning. I think it's mainly a wash, as each player brings somewhat of an equal appeal to both teams. I would make the trade just for the simple fact that the Lakers need a morale boost. Bringing in Marion will make everyone play better, as the talks of getting a championship would resurface. I think Kobe would also play out of his mind.
Mamba, put me on that bandwagon.
Posted by: AB | September 26, 2007 at 10:19 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHAWN MARION TO LAKERS BANDWAGON
(1) AK (2) FearlessWhackJob (3) Rick Freidman (4) Mamba24 (5) Jeff Pinoy
(6) AB
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 26, 2007 at 10:27 AM
hari-yahoo
"As a Laker fan, I'd rather see Kobe traded to the Suns than LO. Let me explain why:"
need i say more. mr. yahoo is being a yahoo.
Posted by: KLBeast (Real One) | September 26, 2007 at 10:27 AM
est nyboer,
"how scary Phoenix would be with the addition of the league's best ballhandling small forward"
Nash is the best point guard in the league; Lamar handling the ball instead of Nash is good for the Lakers!
Posted by: exhelodrvr | September 26, 2007 at 10:28 AM
tsphere
"I hope those bloggers who persist in thinking the F-U riff is funny will now realize why it continually smells like stale vomit. It's sometimes best to keep your mouth closed and run to the toilet rather than subjecting the friends on the blog to such outrageous outpouring."
smell you later.
Marion ain't here yet. it's still lip service if you ask the "beast".
Posted by: KLBeast (Real One) | September 26, 2007 at 10:29 AM
Are you guys kidding? He would be a better fit. I've about had enough of the Lamar as Scottie Pippen experiment, and I can see that he doesn't utilize his unique talents enough. As much as I admire him as a person, he's not a person I would go to battle with....he just doesn't have IT.
With Matrix, we can all see that there is fire in his belly. On attitude alone, you can tell he wants to go to a place where he believes he can have an effect. And if you guys don't think he'll have much luck against Lamar and the Suns, I think his personal vendetta against Stoudamire will help with that.
The Lakers would be a perfect spot for him to flourish, because, well, who else do we have? But seriously, Matrix is more athletically gifted, which is what Lakers have always been, as opposed to having the "system players" in a Jackson regime. We need athletes....we have enough system players, now we need some really athletic players. I say get Matrix....it doesn't solve all the problems, but it gives us another scoring option, as opposed to Lamar, who IMO is TOO "pass-first" for the triangle.
Posted by: #4 | September 26, 2007 at 10:32 AM
tsphere
"I'm sure KL and Gunner will tell us that that's the only possible interpretation of Marion's words."
did you see my post where i conceded?
marion ain't here yet. let's see if kobe uses the KG sweepstake approach......DO NOTHING, THEN COMPLAIN.
Posted by: KLBeast (Real One) | September 26, 2007 at 10:32 AM
TALIQ,
"f you read the background stories, marion/suns relationship is in tatters at
this point, why would we want to help them fix that?"
GOOD POINT
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 26, 2007 at 10:37 AM
mamba24,
"SHAWN MARION TO LAKERS BANDWAGON" ... your choices lately leave me yearning for more ... get artest dude, that's what we need.
Posted by: Taliq | September 26, 2007 at 10:42 AM
Mike T
Good call on leaving Marion where he is. Let's drag Phoenix down into the disgruntled player swamp with us.
Posted by: Vman | September 26, 2007 at 10:42 AM
I've seen an uglier shot - anyone remember Silk Wilkes? How about Lynn Shakelford? Unfortunately, I feel the Lakes must make this move - and although this won't improve the team, it won't hurt it either. For all of the foot-dragging of the front office, this is the result: make the trade to give us hope, even if the hope is a dog and pony show. I like Shawn Marion - he is a beautiful player, quite unlike Lamar. Lamar always looks ugly when doing anything on the court, and since he is oft injured and Marion almost never is. . . that is the deal maker right there. If Marion and the franchise asshole are friends, maybe they will have fun on the court and we will have fun watching. I still think that Brian Cook for Jennero Pargo is all we really need for an 8th seed squeak. Really - why bother to get kind of close?
Posted by: Paulie | September 26, 2007 at 10:48 AM
I would do this trade although i like lamar as a person and a player he has basically been the same player for 3 years, a 15 and 10 guy. In the time lamar has been a laker we have won 3 playoff games and if we get marion we cant do that much worse than that and word has kobe and marion are friends and kobe wants to play with him.
Against some opponents lakers can play small ball and have marion at the 4 and against other teams we could play big and have kobe and marion in the backcourt, walton or vlad at the 3 and 2 seven footers up front.
And another thing marion brings is good defence, Marion can guard the best perimeter players in the game, like in the first game of the season he could guard t mac as an example.
Only question is will the front office have the balls to pull off this trade
Posted by: Justin | September 26, 2007 at 10:48 AM
KL-Broken-Record-Machine,
"In other words, kobe is an a$$wipe. Kobe chasing shaq away for selfish reasons. kobe badmouthing teammates, GM and owner."
We already got that a long long time ago the very first day u posted that here, ok??, now be vanished! LOL.
Posted by: danny | September 26, 2007 at 10:49 AM
In other words, kobe is an a$$wipe. Kobe chasing shaq away for selfish reasons. kobe badmouthing teammates, GM and owner.
BTW, why are you hiding from your name "kobe apologist". still hiding? i'd be hiding to if were a kobe loyalist. where the hell is Mitchell or LakerTom? hiding until kobe scores 50 points for 10 straight games and laker post a 3-7 record, kobe loyalist will start yukking it up that "Jordan never did that haha-hoho-hehe shizzle and giggles".
BTW#2, does kobe still want to be a laker?
Posted by: KLBeast (Real One) | September 26, 2007 at 10:14 AM
Repeat Spam: Head On apply directly to the forehead, Head On apply directly to the forehead, Head On...............
Posted by: Lakergurl | September 26, 2007 at 10:54 AM
Mike T,
"Leaving a disgruntled Marion in Phoenix might be good for the Lakers."
You usually think things out better than this. We should not assume that if Marion doesn't become a Laker that he might not end up somewhere else. Planes out of Phoenix have many more destinations than just LA. If not here, Marion might easily end up on another competing team.
Posted by: Rick Friedman | September 26, 2007 at 10:56 AM
give Kobe a guy who can put up 20+ on any given night and Kobe can focus more on defense. Our new PG lineup is greatly improved over the swiss cheese defense of Smush. Scoring isn't really a problem with this team it's the horrible defense. Kobe wants to win, Matrix is a guy who can move us in the right direction. Odom is indeed valuable, problem is, he does a lot of things well instead of being great at a few things. How many times/year is Odom a threat to put up 30 in a game? Somebody needs to take the heat off Kobe.
Also, to inflame the Bynum haters, Bynum is a good passer, and with 3-4 other guys on the floor who can hit the 3 we would have a real inside/outside game. I'm waiting for the play where Bynum comes up and sets a pick for Kobe then rolls towards the basket for a slam. Time to herald a new era around here, you know, the one where it is unthinkable to trade Bynum.
Posted by: TaosHum | September 26, 2007 at 10:56 AM
ROLL THE DICE ON JO BANDWAGON
(1).Tha Show (2) Andrew Z (3).Xodus (4).Mamba24 (5)Edwin Gueco
(6). Exhelodrvr (7). Long Time Laker Fan (8) Me (9)Fearless whackjob (10). LakerBake
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHAWN MARION TO LAKERS BANDWAGON
(1) AK (2) FearlessWhackJob (3) Rick Freidman (4) Mamba24 (5) Jeff Pinoy
(6) AB (7) #4 (8) Caesar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RON ARTEST TO LAKERS BANDEAGON
(1) TALIQ (2) MAMBA24
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROLL THE DICE ON JO BANDWAGON
(1).Tha Show (2) Andrew Z (3).Xodus (4).Mamba24 (5)Edwin Gueco
(6). Exhelodrvr (7). Long Time Laker Fan (8) Me (9)Fearless whackjob (10). LakerBake
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAKE A DEAL BEFORE TRAINING CAMP BANDWAGON
(1) Laker Bake (2) Gino (3) Trip Game (4) Jay Jay
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SIGN SUN YUE BANDWAGON
(1).FearlessWhackJob (2). Mamba24
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SACRAMENTO KINGS 50 WIN BANDWAGON
1. Sonnybelfast 2. Ron Artest
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BYNUM BREAKOUT BANDWAGON
(1) LakerFaze (2) Mamba24 (?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sasha Breakout Bandwagon
(1) LongimeLakerFan (2) Mamba24
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 26, 2007 at 10:57 AM
DO THE DEAL ! Living in the Valley of the Sun I know Marion is pretty much gone here. As much as I love LO, Marion stays healthy, Lamar doesn't ! Make the trade !
Posted by: lalakerlover | September 26, 2007 at 10:58 AM
ladies and ghouls,
KLBeast exclusive prediction...
Shaq O'neal for Marion in a sign-and-trade.
Pheonix wins NBA title after defeating Boston, Nash wins Finals MVP honors.
Shaq laughs at Kobe AGAIN.
Kobe wallows in sorrow in 2007.
Posted by: KLBeast (Real One) | September 26, 2007 at 11:02 AM
What you get on defense for the 3s, and 2s of the league (don't forget that he didn't really cover them, Tinkerbell did), you lose in the defense for the 4s in the league. LO has done a good job, I think underrated defensively against the 4s in the league. He's been able to battle against EB, and JO (though he isn't really a 4), his speed and his length worked to a defensive advantage against them. But Marion, wouldn't have that advantage.
Just say no lol.
Posted by: Faith | September 26, 2007 at 11:10 AM
Mamba -
Hey Man - Quit stealing my "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" post. You have enough "special" stuff here - that one's MINE.
Also, what do I have to do to get on the Marion bandwagon? Isn't my post enthusiastically endorsing the deal enough?
Don't mean to criticize, I love your posts, but fair's fair.
Posted by: Jay Jay | September 26, 2007 at 11:11 AM
Mike T,
You are on point sir. Let the chemistry die with the Phoenix Suns and on the second half of the season; hope that the Suns will want to trade for Salary Cap Space (Kwame and a filler.) Then we may have Lamar Kobe and Marion which is a way better option.
Peace
Charles
Posted by: Charles | September 26, 2007 at 11:13 AM
This is the good stuff:
"Bynum ran a mile in 8 minutes, 49 seconds when they began. Zarzana said he's shaved more than two minutes off that time.
Bynum improved his bench press from 265 pounds to 305, and his squats from 265 pounds 10 times to 405 pounds 10 times. His body fat dropped from 12 percent to nine.
He ran 50- and 100-meter sprints. He did sprints with a parachute on his back, 50 to 60 yards on straightaways, backpedals at 45-degree angles and zigzags.
And of course there were basketball drills that former NBA star Gerald Wilkins put Bynum through.
"The kid has worked extremely hard, and on his own accord," Zarzana said by phone. "It didn't take anybody to fire this kid up but himself. He realized going into his third year that he's no longer a rookie and he's expected to be a starter now. He came to me and said, 'I want to be the best center in this game. Can you help me?' "
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | September 26, 2007 at 11:13 AM
Mamba24, as big a fan I am of Sasha, I NEED to be on that bandwagon lol.
Posted by: Faith | September 26, 2007 at 11:13 AM
For all of those who HATE and HATE on Kobe and swears no one wants to play with him.
Get this, sounds a lot like Jermaine O'Neal
Marion told Sportingnews.com by telephone that he would welcome a trade to the Lakers to play with his good friend Kobe Bryant.
"You have a great organization, great ownership there with the Lakers. I don't see no problems with playing there," he told the Web site.
This argument should be closed.
Posted by: LakerBake | September 26, 2007 at 11:16 AM
The deal is one sided, in favor of the Lakers that is... BUSS make it happen... You still get to keep your baby.... Speaking of baby Bynum, I must admit I'm impressed... Kwame learn from the kid, work on your game....
Posted by: Gino | September 26, 2007 at 11:16 AM
Rick,
I think with AK47 the Suns will lose part of their outside game. I'm OK with the Suns getting AK47. I'm not to cool with the Suns getting Odom. Either players doesn't answer the Suns need to have someone guard Tim Duncan. It's just shuffling at that position. Remember Phoenix dropped Marion to the 3 spot to play Amare at the 4 spot and Kurt Thomas at the 5 spot. Marion is really a 3 and is playing out of position with the Suns because of their style of play. In the end leaving Marion in Phoenix is going to come down to the same thing. Dropping him to the 3 spot in the playoffs to figure out how to guard Tim Duncan.
Putting AK47 in Marions place in Phoenix only means that Amare will be stuck on Tim Duncan because AK47 is really a power forward in my mind. He played SF for Utah last season because Boozer is a true PF. AK47 is a power forward and is out of step in the SF role, in my opinion. Put him in Phoenix and my bet is that he'll want to play the PF position. That forces Phoenix to play Amare at the 5 and during the playoffs he gets killed by Tim Duncan, as usual.
mike
Posted by: Michael C. Teniente | September 26, 2007 at 11:17 AM
JayJay,
If Kupchak is trading LO for Marion and a supplementary trade follows in the offing that will compensate the loss of Odom, then that will be a good move. As many of us (Mike T., LakerTom, Brandon C, Jon K., Faith and many more ) also said, this does not change the dynamics of the Lakers. It is purely cosmetics. We need your supplementary trade that will bring a reliable C on the fold to complete the triangle. If Riles was our coach, he could use Odom as a C, remember when he did this to Magic in 1980 championship. With enough motivations and role players, on his 4th year a healthy LO could turn out to be Magic Johnson if he wants to. I hope Fisher and Crittenton could feed him the ball when he's on the run not spoiled another Smush three point bricks. So again JayJay I will ask, does Kupchak has a supplementary trade in the works?
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | September 26, 2007 at 11:17 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHAWN MARION TO LAKERS BANDWAGON
(1) AK (2) FearlessWhackJob (3) Rick Freidman (4) Mamba24 (5) Jeff Pinoy
(6) AB (7) #4 (8) Caesar (9) Justin (10) Laker Lover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 26, 2007 at 11:17 AM
Outside of getting either Odom or AK47 I don't think the Suns will trade him to a Western team.
mike
Posted by: Michael C. Teniente | September 26, 2007 at 11:18 AM
"Also, to inflame the Bynum haters, Bynum is a good passer, and with 3-4 other guys on the floor who can hit the 3 we would have a real inside/outside game. I'm waiting for the play where Bynum comes up and sets a pick for Kobe then rolls towards the basket for a slam. Time to herald a new era around here, you know, the one where it is unthinkable to trade Bynum."
I thought I would never agree, sprecially on post's from you... But I got to admit it, I am willling to take a chance on this kid Bynum... I think at this point I am more inclined to let LO or anyone else but Kobe go, except Bynum....
Will SEE
Posted by: Gino | September 26, 2007 at 11:19 AM
SHAWN MARION TO LAKERS BANDWAGON
(1) AK (2) FearlessWhackJob (3) Rick Freidman (4) Mamba24 (5) Jeff Pinoy
(6) AB (7) #4 (8) Caesar (9) Justin (10) LALakerLover (11) TaosHum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: Mamba24 | September 26, 2007 at 11:20 AM
KL Yeast,
Any insult coming from you is a compliment! Remember, a negative of (or in this case, from) a negative is a positive.
So that makes 3 all-stars who want to play with Kobe: JO, Brand, and now Marion. Not to mention Kidd, Chauncey, LBJ, Melo and the others out there during the FIBA games. Anyone you can think of to support your position? Didn't think so. So, crawl back to your hole now.
Posted by: hariyahu | September 26, 2007 at 11:22 AM