Report Card/Exit Interview: Kobe Bryant
The Lakers' second half swan dive didn't just cost them a crack at a higher playoff seed, but also a legitimate shot for Kobe Bryant to win the MVP. When the Lakers were 26-13, looking like a team that could hang with the Houstons and Utahs in the solid second tier of Western Conference squads, led by a Bryant who was shooting well, passing and generally helping an undertalented squad play to the best of its potential, Bryant was being lauded in many circles for playing perhaps the best hoops of his career. It was certainly the best I'd seen him play. Had the MVP voting taken place at that point, he'd have been a favorite. Then the injuries hit and the team went into the tank. Kobe was forced to carry the team offensively for massive stretches, bringing his percentage and efficiency down and using up the energy the Lakers would need him to have in the playoffs just to make them.
Still there were plenty of great moments (the string of 50+ games, for example) and a season's worth of outstanding play. In the end, though, Kobe was left with another scoring title, and not much else beyond deep frustration at the state of the team. I do think Kobe went a long way towards changing the perception of his game and how he can adjust his play to lead and instil confidence in those he plays with. It's a shame we didn't get a chance to see how it could have played out over a full season, but the real test will come when (lord willing) there's a better supporting cast around him. I think he's up to it- the prospect of more seasons like the last three has sharpened his focus on winning- but there will always be doubters. Still, however you slice it, it's hard to argue with Kobe's production this year. GRADE: A
EXIT INTERVIEW: You're going to want to listen to this one in its entirety. It's interesting on a lot of levels, most noteably because the veneer of patience Kobe has shown over the last three seasons seems to have officially worn off. Improvements need to be made. "I just voiced my opinion," Bryant said of his meeting with management, "and now they know that they've got to go out there to do the best that they can to try to make it happen. That's one of the things when I resigned here, they promised to build a contender, adn build a contender now. I don't want to have to wait more than I already have."
Download kobe_bryant_exit_interview_1.mp3
Kobe was pretty clear that things have to get better, and that Mitch Kupchak and the gang understand how he feels on the issue. "We have to improve in a myriad of areas," so while Bryant can't say definitively how improvements can be made given the salary constraints the Lakers are working with, he knows there are plenty of issues that can be addressed... and they need to be. As for his own "window," he didn't sound concerned. "I feel fine physically. I still eat like crap. The important thing to me is winning, now. It's not waiting, or this, that or the other." It's a question of going into the season with a reasonable shot of winning the whole thing, and then doing it. Asked about the opt out clause he can exercise in two years, Kobe replied, "I hate to even think about me going someplace else." Which is not, by the way, the same as saying "I won't go somewhere else." Just something to think about.
Telling, too, was his response to the question about making progress internally with the pieces they have. "No, something has to get done. We can't be in the same position next year."
Download kobe_bryant_exit_interview_2.mp3
Kobe said he felt guys gave their best effort. "It was a very difficult season with injury, and new guys being thrown into the rotation and trying to learn on the fly and things of that nature. It was very difficult, and I feel like they gave it their best shot," he said. As for the offense, he told a story about talking this season to Robert Horry when the Lakers played the Spurs, and Horry joked the Lakers looked like they were running the "Bermuda Triangle." It's about finding players that fit the mold and understand what needs to be done, but "it's just basketball." Asked about Phil Jackson and if he'd like see him get an extension, his reply was definitive. "Absolutely. Absolutely. The thing about coach is you know is style, you know the way he coaches, and it's proved to be effective at winning championships. So now it's just about getting players who can play for him, who are willing to play for him. If we do that, we'll be okay." In the second go-round, the two, Kobe says, are very much on the same page.
Download kobe_bryant_exit_interview_3.mp3
"This is really on "E," so we really got to put the pedal to the metal and try to do something," Bryant said. And he believes Dr. Buss feels the same way, and wants to win. "He's going to do whatever it takes to make it happen." Asked about the trade value of his teammates in terms of getting help, Kobe basically said he doesn't play GM. He had high praise of Lamar Odom ("He's a phenominal player," Bryant said, who played hurt through most of the season.) but said again the team just needs to get better. How isn't in his realm. Just needs to get done. One positive of this season, Bryant said, was that the trials and tribulations helped him develop as a leader. "It's one thing to lead when everything's going right. It's another when you've got adversity and you're struggling. That's when you're really, really tested as a leader, and try to keep the ship going."
BK
I said it before and I still believe it--Shaq's departure had less to do with Kobe Bryant and more to do with his fear that his team (and indeed his legacy) would not match up favorably with the Spurs, that in the end he would have less championships, and God forbid, he would be forced to give 100% every game for the next 5 years just to compete and not be embarrrassed.
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | May 14, 2007 at 04:56 AM
ATTENTION LAKER FANS and KL BEAST
To use a phrase from a great movie "JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS OUT, THEY PULL ME BACK IN AGAIN."
Here I was retired when I decide to peek in and see how The Blog is coming along and what do I see?
Ridiculous, stupid asinine comments posted by some character by the name of BLACKMAMBA24.
Now I could give less than a damn about the comments but the handle BLACKMAMBA24 is to similar
to my blog name of MAMBA24. So I would like to reassure one and all that these asinine comments
were not written by me but by this clown called KL BEAST. So BEAST, I have tried to be cool with you
and if you are as cool as you would pretend to be I would appreciate you changing your secondary blog name
from BLACKMAMBA24 to something a little less close to Mamba24. Of Course it is your right to use any name
you choose and it is also your right to be a stupid a** hole. So the choice is yours my friend.
Just be advised dont take my humorous postS and attempts to make you feel welcome on the Blog as a sign of weakness.
If you want to play dirty I can play just as dirty. So Ill leave you with a little thought my friend,
computers arent a hobby with me, programming and systems is what I happen to do for a living
and I am very good at what I do. Nuff said.
PS. HAPPY MOTHERS DAY BEAST
Posted by: Mamba24 | May 14, 2007 at 06:51 AM
On trading Kobe- No on in this or any blog disputes Kobe is the best player in the game today so critizing his play or leadership does make anyone a Kobe Hater. I dont see any way the lakers can be competitve for a championship in the next few years for the following reasons
1) salary cap
2) no marketable players to trade
3) poor draft picks
So it might be in Kobes best interest to go play elsewhere if he wants to win a championship.
At the time the Lakers trader Shaq, he was know was one of the most dominant centers of all time and it was widely accepted in nba circles as a bad trade with lasting consequences.
3 seasons later here we are. 1 season no playoffs and 2 seasons out in the first round with a hof coach making 10 million and the best player on the planet.
This is the Lakers not the Clippers its always the goal to win CHAMPIONSHIPS not make the playoffs. Do you think the Yankees and RedSox are content making the playoffs and going fishing after the first round? Of course not. They have bigger goals.
I dont believe Kobe is a ball hog, he is what he is and that is NOT a leader and thats ok. Get some leaders around him if you want to win. Smush, Luke, Kwame look at this roster where is the leadership going to come from?
This has been my point about 9 rings all season. The coach is the leader, for better or worse, and 9 rings is not the right coach for this team of players. He is better suited to have a team of veterans so he can give them books and use his zen to motivate them!
Posted by: Laker Lover | May 14, 2007 at 07:20 AM
What do people think should be done with Barry Bonds' record-breaking home run ball; I mean, does the fan who catches it have any obligation to give it back to Bonds or the Giants organization?
I say nooooo way. Fan's have so little rights in ball parks these days- no cooking your own carne asada, no bringing your guitar and belting out a few verses of "Knockin' on Heaven's Door", no public spanking. The only right the fan does have is to catch a ball, and if that ball happens to be worth a plump fraction of the player's salery or the teams daily gross, so be it. It belongs to the fan, and should be purchased from that fan if the player or the team wants to have it.
I would give first shot at buying it to the player, then the team, and probably even offer it at a slight discount--and I mean slight, say $900,000 instead of $1,000,000--before I put it up for auction.
Having said that, when that ball gets hit, that is going to be a life and death scramble to catch it with someone almost gauranteed to assult you for it. Bring witnesses so you can sue the guy who mugs your kid for the ball!
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | May 14, 2007 at 07:24 AM
Michael h:
It was HOW the trade went down that frustrated me. In hindsight, it was obvious that these guys couldn't play together. Getting no value for your franchise player is inexcusable.
And yes, I hold Kobe more responsible than Shaq because the boy didn't want to listen to anybody OR take a back seat to anybody. But I'm about as close to done with that issue as I have ever been.
I happen to agree with you about the way back to contention. But I think the Lakers tried size over speed and quicks post-Shaq, and it didn't work. I believe that improving the perimeter with players that can complement Kobe in production and intangibles (i.e., willing to defer and kiss his ring). I think Kidd and Artest could do that.
Starting 5: Kidd, Bryant, Artest, Mihm, LO/Turiaf/Cook, et al.
Bench: Walton, Farmar, Turiaf/Cook
That makes you more competitive, in my view.
Posted by: Exiled | May 14, 2007 at 08:00 AM
First Off - WHEN DO WE GET A NEW THREAD?
Oh wait - the season's over, the exit report cards are done - there's nothing left to write about til the playoffs are over (without us) and trading/draft season begins in earnest. Unless the K Bros can get creative and find something we'll have 3,000 comments on "Kobe's report card." Gentlemen?
Oh and to "Laker Lover" - if you were truly a Laker lover you'd know what we have to offer. How did Jerry get Shaq to come here in 1996 when all we had on the team was Elden Campbell and Cedric Ceballos? Its the LAKER Mystique. History baby. What big man wouldn't want to be the next link in the winning tradition of George Mikan, Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq in his prime? IF we had a GM that was part of that history (West? Magic? Phil?) and knew how to play on it, we'd have KG and JO demanding their teams send them here.
Posted by: Jay Jay | May 14, 2007 at 08:21 AM
Raise your hand if you're excited about trading Kwame Brown!!!! Ooooooo, oooooo,oooooooo, me, me, me, me!!!!! It would be so great to dump such a terrible salary from the roster, especially in an exchange for a guy like Ron Artest. So wait, Mike T. is going to blow a gasket here, I am giving up a guy who blocks a few shots a game, gives me 9ppg, and 6rpg, in exchange for a guy who throws down 19ppg and grabs 6rpg? This a trade made in heaven!!! Especially if it doesn't invlolve any one else. I am giving up size, but Mihm is coming back and with Artest starting, LO spends more time in the paint grabbing rebounds and playing defense. There is also the fact that Ron Artest was DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR 3 seasons ago. He also stays healthy and plays all out basketball. PJ can handle the issues with personality (RODMAN) and locker room stuff. Also, the first year honeymoon could be enough to get the team over the hump. Here is my new favorite lineup
PG JKidd
SG KB
SF Artest
PF LO
C Mihm/FA backup
This is a starting lineup with a LOT of possibility. Salaries can be made to work as well, considering the fact that Artest and Kwame have similar salaries so the trade is straight up. The deal for Kidd would invlove Bynum and Vlad with some change thrown in. There is still money in the bank to resign Luke, the MLE, and paybe a complimentary guy. I believe the only wild card is Artest's behavior. He is obviously a passionate player and that will go over very well with Kobe. You have a lineup now with 4 potential all stars, and if everyone accepts their role as follows, no problems.
Kobe - Scorer, I don't need to elaborate
Artest - Stopper/Tough Guy, also effective in a secondary scoring role,
Kidd - Do all guy, Does everything well, can mentor Farmar
LO - Post Scoring threat, also a versatile player like Kidd that can rebound and create
These guys would be IMMEDIATELY formidable in the western conference. What does everybody think about this mix?
Live from under The Donald's other chin
LkrFan
Posted by: PhxLkrFan | May 14, 2007 at 08:52 AM
I take that back. Gotta give up Lamar. Maybe a sign and trade with Walton would make it a deal. Luke re-signs for about 6 mil a year and it works out.
Posted by: PhxLkrFan | May 14, 2007 at 08:56 AM
Kiwi:
Shaq's "demand" for a trade was made after the die was cast. When Phil went out the door, without even consulting with Shaq, the franchise player, Shaq knew what was up. So Shaq's trade "demand" was academic, IMHO.
you and Michael h make good points but the purpose of putting these guys together was to contend for a decade or so. Had they been able to play together, the money wouldn't have been as big of an issue as it's made out to be. Surely they knew that the 2 best players in the league (at that time) would each command max money.
As for the Heat, they had never won a title. They got one with Shaq. That was the return on their investment. And, keep in mind, Shaq's averages were at their lowest this year, but despite the fact that both he and Wade missed, collectively, what, 70 games, they still make the playoffs. If the Heat go deep next year, or win another title, then what will we say? And they can do it, they ARE in the Eastern Conference, after all.
But again, I'm trying to get past this.
Laker Lover: You've made the point perfectly. Kobe's the best player in the league, not even I would dispute that, but he's not really a leader.
They need a guy like Kidd, a proven vet who's played on winning teams and can instill some confidence in these guys, because it's his job to distribute and get people involved in the game. I think cats like Farmar and Walton could take the next step with him.
Posted by: Exiled | May 14, 2007 at 08:56 AM
Alright, so I think I may have overreacted a bit on Friday. Turns out I was getting second hand information. I apologize for not being my normal, funny self... I'll get right back to that post-haste.
KL: Sorry that I won't be able to join the Dark Side completely. ;)
Posted by: generic_one | May 14, 2007 at 09:07 AM
Jay Jay:
ONLY Ced Ceballos and Elden Campbell? Have you forgotten Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel? They had a little more than you'd think in 1996.
I truly believe that the trade tarnished the Laker Mystique a bit. It was built on superstars working together to contend for and win titles, and smart management decisions. Wilt and Jerry. Magic, Kareem and Worthy. Shaq and Kobe.
But the Trade represented the first time that the Laker Mystique wasn't powerful enough to overcome the power of massive egos and poor decision making. There was a time when SI did a poll that showed that the Lakers were the favored destination of the league. I wonder whether those poll results would be the same today.
As for the comments about Magic and Jordan made by another revisionist historian on here, let's look at the facts. Magic ran off Westhead. Got Riley. Upgrade. Magic ran off Norm Nixon. Got Byron Scott. A wash. Jordan ran off Collins. Got Phil Jackson. Upgrade. The comparisons to Kobe "running off" Shaq are inaccurate because the other situations reaped rewards for the superstar AND the franchise. This move has not, and we're going into season 4 after the Trade.
It would be naive of anyone to think the Laker Mystique has not been damaged by the Trade and its aftermath. It can be recovered, but it has been damaged.
Posted by: Exiled | May 14, 2007 at 09:07 AM
PhxLkrFa, "PG JKidd SG KB SF Artest PF LO C Mihm/FA backup "
PhxLkrFa what do I think about the lineup is, I think you are a freakin genius! I'd appoint
you GM in a New York minute. Keep those ideas coming.
Posted by: Mamba24 | May 14, 2007 at 09:09 AM
Exiled ...wait a second....you lakers management negativarians cant have things both ways...
-In return for Shaq we got Lamar Odom who is a very valuable player and Caron Butler who was a talented improving young guy who is now an all star....
- Then you want to criticise managment for trading away Butler which is fine if thats how you see things but dont turn around and say we got 'no value'
Two budding young players for an expensive centre past his prime is certainly not 'no value' and I reiterate...the lakers had been soundly beaten two years in a row in the playoffs.The chances of rebuilding a contending team immediately were not high so at best we would have been left with Shaq and Kobe feuding on a decent but not good enough team until Shaq became ridiculously overpriced and untradable thus insuring the team would stink and have no hope of improving for years.
But what do you say? Kobe wouldnt have resigned if Shaq was there...well in that case management was forced to choose and they wisely chose to build around the 'ticket selling youngster' over the 'soon to be has been' demanding top dollar.However this put them in a position where they HAD to trade Shaq which as I said before is difficult when other teams know you HAVE to make a trade.
Even if Kobe wouldve resigned with shaq there it was clear it was not going to work anymore and the sensible thing to do was to trade him.
How can you hold Kobe more responsible when Shaq was a grown man and Kobe a kid.Maybe he was a really irritating kid but Shaq was paid to be a leader not sink to Kobe's level.So the most you can say is maybe Kobe is the bigger d**8head of the two but Shaq shouldve been the bigger man and wasnt.
And how do you think we are going to compete in the western conference with no front line?...you are pinning our hopes of being decent on Mihm not only being healthy but productive? Im sorry but your starting lineup sucks....We need to get a big guy if we are trading away Bynum/Brown...that is one thing that is crystal clear.
Posted by: Kiwi | May 14, 2007 at 09:13 AM
AK ,BK
Can you guys set up like a D - blog where certain posters can hone their skills and learn about basic logic before getting called up to the real deal?
hahaha
Posted by: Kiwi | May 14, 2007 at 09:15 AM
PhxLaker,
"The deal for Kidd would invlove Bynum and Vlad with some change thrown "
Salaries don't match
Posted by: exhelodrvr | May 14, 2007 at 09:24 AM
Wesjoenixon
Your post was as close to basketball as the movie "Base-ketball" was to basketball. jk
But, seeing as you brought that up. I was the kid that almost caught Willie Mays 600 th home run.
It was on a Friday at Padre stadium. Mays was given the night off. Saturday was to be May's night. The fan who caught the ball would get all kinds of prizes. It was conditional that the fans sitting in left field seats would have to give up the ball.
So in the 9th inning, Mays came out ondeck to pinch hit. Fatty anticipating the home run moves over to the left field seats. Nobody is their, its mine if he does. Just me and an usher who comes over to talk to me. May's hits the home run. It lands 30 feet from me, I have a clear shot, nobody is between me and the ball, for sure its mine. Except for one big, burley usher who grabs me and refuses to let go until security arrives. I can still see the ball sitting their, as a security guy picks it up, only to hand it over to Willie May's.
I was mad. Cheated out of my fame and a place in history by an usher who pretended to be my friend. My only consolation and it was little consolation was the Padres saturday night Willie Mays night was ruined by a pinch hit home run by Willie Mays.
My brother, a Dodger fan, who took me to the game. Had only went to root against the Giants, told me if I had caught the ball, I would be walking home. No Giant baseball in his car. And whats funny he wasn't kidding. If this had happened today my brother would be demanding a share of the auction price. Times have changed.
Fatty, just waiting for a new thread to pop.
Posted by: Fatty | May 14, 2007 at 10:17 AM
Kiwi,
In effect, management traded Shaq for Kobe. Which is a pretty good deal.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | May 14, 2007 at 10:32 AM
Exhelodrvr, "In effect, management traded Shaq for Kobe. Which is a pretty good deal"
Thats pretty slick. I never thought about it quite like that.
Posted by: Mamba24 | May 14, 2007 at 10:45 AM
Fatty,
Now that we know, you're part of Willie May's story. Why don't you send it to Willie May's publicist? that was a nice story line.
Since you're no longer a kid in a different era, you should follow now the balls of Barry Bonds, drug lords would double its value. (j/k only)
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | May 14, 2007 at 10:53 AM
Michael h,
“Next year if we are healthy and he ignores his teamates and hogs the ball, i will join your hate club. But this year he did what he had to do.”
Valid points. I’m hoping next year will be different and we won’t have to hate on kobe. I’ve said many times, winning cures all sins. kobe had a heavy hand in getting us here, so I expect him to get us out.
“As for Kobe wanting this? Come on, dude wants to win more then anyone i have ever seen.”
I don’t disagree on the boy wanting to win…..winning what is the question. so far, winning scoring titles and scoring records doesn’t mean jack.
jorema,
“English as second languaje is taking over more and more this country in sports.”
First off, I apologize for the jokes I made about your writing. English is my second language as well. I welcome diversity of opinion and culture to any discussion. I’m really happy to see the growth of international players into the league. Guys like Dirk, Yao, Nash are awesome to watch. The finesse aspect of the game is great.
Aaarrrhhhh!! (aka Angry_Laker)
“Please can you tell me why it is ok for Tim Duncan to have 33 pts 0 assists and not be called a Ball Hog.”
Easy, TD’s on the post and he’s not getting doubled teamed. If he’s doubled, then outside opens up. It’s a strategic move by the Suns to now allow others to get off. Just my take. Aaaarahhh!!!
Mitchell=mitch cupcake,
“Even after reading all the illogical and blantantly ignorant posts from the KOBE HATERS, I am still in a good mood today. So, I will give you idiots a FREE lesson on the history of the HATERS in the NBA:”
One word to you my friend……..Ad hominem
“Kobe Bryant has THREE championships, and is considered the best player in the league by his peers, yet the haters are predictably chanting "TRADE KOBE!!!! He is a ballhog.”
kobe has 3 rings thanks for shaq and I never said trade kobe. I want kobe to live with breaking up the laker almost-dynasty and give him an opportunity to redeem himself. so for, kobe hasn’t done jack. I don’t care if he’s the best player in the galactico-universe. the laker team sucks.
Exiled,
“if you think that Kobe wants to win more than anyone else, I disagree. If that were the case, he'd have found a way to make Shaq believe that he was the man while surfing on that big behemoth's back to 2 more titles. He coulda done it. D-Wade did it, and he got his ring and Finals MVP. Exactly what Kobe wanted. And Kobe's a better player than D-Wade. He just let his ego get the best of him.”
kobe lovers (or is it kobe’s lovers), please read Exiled’s post 10 times carefully………..now do you get it?
korey,
“Get Kobe help in the next two years, make the Western Conference Finals at least, or Kobe walks.”
I really don’t care if kobe walks. it’ll just reinforce my negative opinion of he punk-ass who gave up titles for selfish purposes. I care about the laker team winning being the “house on a hill”. I’d rather have the entire Utah Jazz team than kobe and 11 stiffs.
Fearless,
“You know, I'm sitting here thinking of some of the debate between those who think King James is the best player in the NBA v. those of us who choose Kobe. I think the argument is clearly in Kobe's favor.”
please get your head out of kobe’s rectum. who’s still in the playoffs?? LBJ or kobe “the snake” Bryant?? BTW, how do you like the cheese with that WHINE!!?
“I'm betting Kobe excels in LBJ's position (playing in the EAST?) and LBJ shoots himself in the head out of frustration when Smush bricks yet another wide-open jumper or Kwame drops another sure dime out of bounds.”
Here’s what’ll happen if LBJ and kobe trade positions, the good players will leave the Cavs and follow LBJ and the cheesy players will got to Cleveland to watch “the greatest one-man show ever”.
Mamba24,
Mamba24, I thought we cool? Blackmamba24 is not my post, I 100% assure you.
“Just be advised dont take my humorous postS and attempts to make you feel welcome on the Blog as a sign of weakness.”
dude, calm down. it’s only a blog. no need to get upset.
“computers arent a hobby with me, programming and systems is what I happen to do for a living and I am very good at what I do. Nuff said.”
I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but you’re taking things a little too serious. Please disregard anything I post if you’re going to take this so seriously. you’re beginning to sound like Mitchell.
G_O,
“KL: Sorry that I won't be able to join the Dark Side completely. ;)”
we all want the same thing but in different ways. we’re all laker fans.
Posted by: KL "the beast" | May 14, 2007 at 11:02 AM
Ex ...that was sharp man - nicely put...I gotta warn you though, Im coming after you soon on your 'Jackson starting Mihm over Kwame proves who is the better player' call...
Posted by: Kiwi | May 14, 2007 at 11:15 AM
Kiwi,
If Mihm ever gets back to full health you will be bowing at my feet and peeling grapes for me.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | May 14, 2007 at 11:42 AM
ExHelo,
I saw that right after I posted and it was too late to take it back. I did rescind the comment in the subsequent post though. I reasserted that Lamar would have to be part of the deal, although if Walton were to be part of the deal as a a sign and trade at about 6mil per it would work. I'm just anxious.
LkrFan
Posted by: PhxLkrFan | May 14, 2007 at 12:09 PM
Ex what does Mihm's health have to do with my visiting you in hospital...Im confused...
Posted by: Kiwi | May 14, 2007 at 12:16 PM
Kiwi,
It's not open for debate. I post it here because it's the best way to get my ideas to Lakers management.
By the way, I am thinking of doing a "Rambis Rite-up" after each game next season, so that I can point out the good and bad things done by the assistant coach.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | May 14, 2007 at 12:38 PM
Fatty,
Great story--see what going off topic get us!
Wes
Posted by: wesjoenixon | May 14, 2007 at 01:21 PM
Ex...I was going to take Rambis, but thats fine I will do my journal on Gary Vitti instead.Afer all its his fault kwame Brown spent so much time out of the lineup this season.
Posted by: Kiwi | May 14, 2007 at 01:39 PM
Kiwi,
What will you cal it?
"Vitti's Victims"?
Posted by: exhelodrvr | May 14, 2007 at 02:07 PM
Exiled ...wait a second....you lakers management negativarians cant have things both ways...
-In return for Shaq we got Lamar Odom who is a very valuable player and Caron Butler who was a talented improving young guy who is now an all star....
- Then you want to criticise managment for trading away Butler which is fine if thats how you see things but dont turn around and say we got 'no value'
At the time he was traded, Shaq was a franchise player. Butler and Odom were prospects. I used "no value" and "commensurate value" interchageably. If you believe that the trade was for commensurate value, when you consider Grant's HEFTY contracts, then that's your opinion. It's pretty much accepted the trade was not good for the Lakers.
Shaq's Heat got to the ECF year 1, won a title year 2, lost in playoffs year 3. They remain a viable contender in the East. The Lakers didn't get nearly the same results. Without the players we acquired, the Heat won a title. With the players we acquired, the Heat went out early.
As I've said a few times, in hindsight, if your choice was Kobe, you couldn't keep Shaq. But speculation works both ways. Had Kobe been shipped, leaving Shaq as the supreme leader, you more likely would have found a more motivated Shaq, and the team would have as much if not more mobility cap-wise to get some help. Even if Shaq were, as you say, unmotivated, do you really imagine we'd have missed the playoffs, blown a 3-1 lead in the first round, and gotten run out of the playoffs in year 3? I don't.
And this Kobe was a "kid." He was 26 years old. Shaq was 32. If Kobe were 20, I'd understand his position. But he had the benefit of winning rings with Shaq, and I would bet dollars to donuts that Phil told him allowing the offense to run through Shaq until Shaq couldn't run it anymore would lead to more rings, and closer to the rarefied air of Jordan. He didn't listen. The modern Basketball Trinity -- Magic, Bird, Jordan -- had all realized at 26 that they needed teammates' help to win. Jordan was about 26 when he learned that lesson (and won his first title). Ditto Magic and Bird, who'd already, like Kobe, won titles with substantial help. Given that Kobe wants to be considered in that class, he's gotta be measured against them. Jordan played with a space cadet and got 3 titles for his trouble. Had he thrown up his hands and said, "no Rodman," where would they have been? Seems to me, Kiwi, that Kobe apologists sometimes want it both ways. When he does great things, he's a great leader. When he screws up, well, he's just a "kid."
I agree with you on the business decision the Lakers made. As Bill Walton said, the Lakers had a choice: to try to win or to try to put on a show. Notwithstanding the fact that a winning Laker team is per se a ticket-seller, they wanted to put on a show to sell tickets. So they went with Kobe.
Again, fault goes both ways, but Kobe deserves more. Some of my fellow Laker fans want to put him on a pedestal AND make excuses for him. That's all I'm saying.
Posted by: exiled | May 14, 2007 at 02:47 PM
Im not exactly sure yet but thats a possibility... it will be full of gems that nobody else notices... like how his personal relationships with players families means he 'misdiagnoses' injuries so other those players can have more time....this season for example he told Vlad that mountain air would be good for his hand (knowing full well that Vlad would take to snowboarding like a fly to s£$t) thus setting the seed for Walton to get more time....stuff lke that.
Posted by: Kiwi | May 14, 2007 at 03:09 PM
"Even bloggers here who grew up in this era have forgotten the Laker standards, they are confused who to trade and who will remain, they come to value the contributions of players describes as scrubs. Nobody knows what the real Laker brand is? They just charged it to nostalgia that will never come back.."
The Laker brand is represented in its legends but its essence is teamwork towards one goal: a championship. Stars who subjugated their egos for the betterment of the team, and actually became MORE revered and popular for their winning. It was a self-nourishing brand that produced 3 generations of champions.
It was also a brand that stood for prudence, forward thinking and savvy in the front office. No other franchise in the game, or arguably, in all of sports, drafted, traded, or developed talent as well or better than the Lakers for the better part of 20 years.
That brand has been sullied in a spectacular way. There is blame to go around, but some of us who criticize Kobe do so because we know this Laker brand you speak of. And we know it has never been wholly dependent on one player, nor has it ever been victimized by poor talent evaluation and cap management issues.
Some people think that Kobe fan and Laker fan are mutually inclusive concepts. They are not, and I personally am sick of this "love-Kobe-or-leave-the-Lakers" mentality, which are the hallmarks of a fan-atic. Those who want to make excuses for Kobe, or minimize his personal responsibility for the franchise's demise (and it's undeniable his fingerprints are on it), resort to revisionist history to avoid it. It haunts us, Laker fans, and it will continue to haunt us.
Many, like me, want to move on. But some of you who have this STRONG belief that Kobe is going to lead us to a title are setting yourselves up for a major letdown. There's a chance he can do it if management makes the right moves. But I don't think it's likely, since any major moves that are made are not likely to change the pecking order in the West.
All that being said, the Laker brand has been down before. Magic's retirement. The Pfund era. The post-Magic playoff struggles. The growing pains of a young superstar tandem. And then, it was back again. I believe it will come back again. Just not on Kobe's watch.
Posted by: Exiled | May 14, 2007 at 03:17 PM
Exiled...I respect your opinion but I think you are paying attention to the extremes of bloggers.Sure there are kobe fans or fanatics as you call them...there are also those at the other end of the scale.I nbetween there are a great many fans and bloggers who have a realistic view of how things are and have been.You just dont notice them so much because on this blog,like in the media, it is not the rational boring opinons that get the attention - it is the extreme views.
If you pay attention there are many people who respect what kobe can do while being aware of his failings and where he needs to improve.As for Kobe leading the lakers to a title? it will be tough...theres more chance he will fail than succeed ...you just need to look at how many great players actually lead a team to a title within the course of their careers...many only have a legitimate shot at it for 2 or 3 years.Some manage to take advantage of the opportunity and many fail.
Kobe may not lead a lakers to a title and it will be considered a failure because of his history,the players he is compared to and his willingness to vocally express that it is not only all he wants ,but what he expects.The barkleys and Malones were never under that kind of pressure.Kobe's legacy will be far more compromised by failing to do that than Barkley or malones ever were...he is simply working to a different set of expectations.
The truth is it is very difficult to win titles and in the ashes what was recently a dynasty it is even tougher.But my feeling on the matter is that if Kobe is put in the right situation he is a player that will take advantage of it moreso than the other stars.
Kobe's abilities are on display - we can see his good and bad points on a daily basis.But it is only in tight playoff games in tighltly contested series deep into the playoffs what sets Kobe apart from the other stars.Hes proven that in the past...he deserves that respect.Whatever you say you cant take that away from him.Hes been tested in situations where many of the other young stars haven't....achieved what Nowitzki and Nash have never been able to do.Shaq or no Shaq hes come through.hes also shown himself to be slightly more special at doing special things.That alone gives him better odds
I simply dont believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with this great basketball player that will render him unable to lead a team to a title.I do agree that building a championship team is far more difficult than many of us want to acknowledge.The lakers may have to wait another 30 years for a title ...it is very possible.But the pressure is on to win now BECAUSE Kobe Bryant is in his prime...not simply because the team is the los Angeles lakers.
However the difficulty is that fans (and now Kobe himself) see that it will take years slowly adding piece by piece,fine tuning,losing a piece ,gaining a piece,fine tuning,experience together,an injury,timing ,luck,a ball that rattles in or out in a crucial game 5...theres no one move that can make the lakers contenders,and no one season that will solve the problems....and at the end you can blame who you like but the most blame lies on the fact that its just not that easy to do...thats why people look so happy when they hold that trophy.
Posted by: Kiwi | May 14, 2007 at 04:32 PM
Exiled,
As you can see we cannot play the Laker brand type of games because we are lacking in personnel. Now we have a player who's running the factory at this time but only on one shift. We wanted to add two more shifts. What do you want to happen on that one shift operation, shall we close the shop by terminating him? So far, he is the factory at this time. Patience is the greatest virtue, let the enterprise grow before you think of cutting the best employee. Once you reach the stage of stability with guaranteed replacement, then you can do whatever you want? Can you guarantee production without this employee or your duck that lays the golden eggs? if you don't know answer, then let's focus on this duck?
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | May 14, 2007 at 07:19 PM
lakofan, yes, Nash's kick on Kobe didn't draw any attention, but when he got kicked, oh, there was an investigation. it's ridiculous, isn't it? And I agree with the karma thing.
Exiled, Shaq and Kobe didn't get the titles the last 2 seasons they were together. It's even more difficult when Shaq asked more money and more years in his first year of his new contract. That selfish bastard didn't think of the team first but only his money and glory. Why can't some Shaq guys see through all the excuses he gave? Oh, the Laker FO din't consult him before letting Phil go. Only by Shaq's words. And Shaq is so credible? Nonsense.
Posted by: gdchild | May 14, 2007 at 08:49 PM
Kiwi:
Well put.
Edwin:
As I have said many times in the wake of this playoff exit, the best thing the Lakers can do is surround this guy, with all of his faults, with the best talent we can acquire. Acquiring Kidd gives Kobe substantive help AND fits within the restoration of the Laker "brand" because he's got superstar bona fides. And if the Lakers really want to win now, they roll the dice with Artest. A starting perimeter of Kidd, Bryant and Artest gives the Lakers a MUCH better chance to compete. It doesn't elevate them to top-3 status in the West, but it helps them stay in the title hunt beyond May.
gdchild:
The Lakers cost themselves a shot at a four-peat in 2003 because Shaq cheated the team and delayed his surgery. But the Lakers shot themselves out of a title in 2004, when they really didn't need to, and guess who led that brick parade? In any event, in both seasons, they lost to the eventual champion.
Shaq had and has his faults. I've been through them here on this blog at length. But Shaq gave the Lakers the better chance to do what Laker fans want to do: WIN. The results from Shaq, as a flawed franchise player, still don't lie. I don't disagree with most of what you have to say about Shaq. The front office's calculus concluded that the cost didn't justify the risk.
But the bottom line is Ws and Ls. Shaq gives you a chance for more Ws and more titles. The immediate period post-Trade justifies that view. Will Kobe justify the faith of Laker fans? I don't believe so, but nothing is for certain.
On balance, as for the future, my position is no different from what AK said about six weeks ago. If you want to win now, trade Bynum. If you want to build for the future, trade Kobe.
Posted by: Exiled | May 15, 2007 at 09:22 AM
you kobe haters are idiots, in one way or another your biter we traded lazy, out shape,always starting the beef shaq.your acting like we won championships because of shaq. shaq has not won anything because of shaq. yet he acts like he did.history lesson for you, shaq-penny,shaq-kobe,shaq-wade, he has never been alone to deal with the crap kobe deals with.inturn will make kobe an greater player, and develope into an greater leader.i hate this comparison, but it may put things in propective.mj won in his late 20s early and mid 30s. you can say well kobe has more tread on him at this age,but he also have more available to him to stay in shape then past players.the boy lives and breaths this game just look at the the text he sent to fish he was telling him on how to stay focus, and the same with odom. name someone else who feels the same about the game.why not build an team around a guy like that. and to faith if he had players who played defense he wouldnt have to cheat.all i have to say is keep odom trade brown for artest, and try to sign bibby by letting free agents go. call me an kobe brown noiser, i call you an kobe hater, and if you guys like to see kobe traded, find the team and the player of your choice and watch them.
Posted by: law23 | May 16, 2007 at 01:55 PM