Roland:

Great article. I love Tex. Is he going to be with the team this year? Also worried about Kareem still being with the team. It's amazing that a coach who could get the respect of MJ and Kobe would be humiliated like that by Shaq.

I will make a point to pick up a copy of Lindy's. I hope the renewed attention can get Tex some long overdue respect from the Basketball Hall of Fame. Thanks again for your great contributions.

Tom

Shaq is a punk and really has no class! Who tells Tex Winter to shut the f*ck up?

>_<

P.S. Thanks Roland!

As always, thanks, Roland!

What the hell is wrong with Shaq? Seriously. What the hell is wrong with this guy?

Urgh.

I hope Bynum schools him again this year.

GO LAKERS!

Andrew Z,

Go to Wikipedia and look up "Triange" to discover even more about it than you may already know.

Compared to Princeton and other offenses, it's just too damn complicated. You've got to have "special", and I don't mean just "great" players to grasp it, and by its nature, takes considerable time to grasp.

Not so Wells for Bonzai:

http://www.sportsillustrated.cnn.com//2006/writers/chris_mannix/09

Most people never like Kobe when he came in the league because of is belief in himself (that he is the best Bball player in the game) PJ never like the way the 19 year old kid toyed with MJ and Scotte, the entire NBA even is own teem did not like is confidences PJ and Shaq tock it personal will MJ and Scott understood the kid desire. Even know PJ is still trying to under mine the kid greatness.

Caesar
People like you it is hard to like why did you live this part off the quote “individually he’s not as good as Kobe” just to make an argument ?

Great Article. Roland is a huge bonus to us Laker Lovers! I am sad to hear about Shaqs disrespect but stuff happens and he seemed to apologize. Tex doesn't hold anything back and he was right to exclude Shaq, I think I have posted 3 -4 times with Shaq barely breaking my top 10 of all time. Sad to think he never truly improved after his 3-4th season. He could hold his own with anyone, anytime but the overall talent is lacking too much in comparison; Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Mikan, and Olajuwan. All guys I would take in front of him. The guy lost games over and over on the line and by not being able to play at the end of games. If Amare comes back in shape and ready with some new low post action - this guy could be one of the greatest ever. He has a lot of time to grow and this early in career injury may make him a real workhorse. I still think Yao could improve and be a more dominant force, as well as a better intimidator and rebounder.

To Shaq's credit, not many big men have been as dominant in his time, and he has thoroughly taken advantage if it. Thanks for the rings Shaq!

Lindy's hmmm I have to look that up- Thanks again Roland.

rayray WINTER'S, all-time team

Guards: Magic, Stockton
(Magic'll play the 48)
S Guards: Take a guess which 2, you'de be right
(his Airness and MAMBA and for now MJ starts)
S Forwards: Bird, Pippen
(Larry'll play all the 4th quarter)
P Forward: Timi, Barkley
(Chuck might get starter mins)
Center: Kareem, Shaq
(Shaq gets Kareem's rest minutes. Not that much though. We're gonna need to make FREE THROWS, ya know)

Honorable Mentions-
Karl (Mailman)PF, Hakim (dream)C

Mike T's team:

PG: Magic
SG: Kobe
SF: Baylor
PF: Malone
C: Chamberlain

mike

Kobe never in his life got calls like DWade.

Mike T.,

Elgin Baylor. Nice!

Add him to the list of players that I wish I was around to see. I hear the guy was ahead of his time.

>_<

Mike T,

My triangle team would eat your team alive. LOL!

Pfunk,
"He said he has made the adjustment of looking at Micheal Vicks tremendous talent and tailoring the offense to fit Vick and his strengths.......so if Vick felt like running he could do that or if he looked up and saw a pass he could do that as well......in other words make the game simple to play."

The problem, though, is that that typically means a less successful team overall. That is like the SIxers with Allen Iverson. Exciting to watch, but no titles.

Exhelodryr

I should have been more broad........I meant creating a system to fit your talent instead of forcing a system on your talent.

My all time team:

PF-Elvin Hayes/ Karl Malone/ George Mikan
SF-Larry Bird/Elgin Baylor/Rick Barry
C-Wilt Chamberlain/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Bill Russell
PG-Magic Johnson/Oscar Robertson/John Stockton
SG-Michael Jordan /Jerry West/ Walt Frazier
Coaches: Red Auerbach, Red Holzman, Phil Jackson

Great stuff rdlee, thanks for the format…too many great players to decide, made my post real difficult!

SG- I guess I am old school. Today’s players just don't qualify yet. Kobe could be as great as MJ but he isn't yet. To exclude the greatest 2 guards I have ever seen is not going to happen. At their prime both West and Frazier would kill today’s players. George Gervin was a favorite of mine but if I was going to give a guy props and then include defense he and Pistol Pete cannot make it, another guy who had great skills just couldn't get them to gel with a good enough team.
PG-The Point has to go to Magic, hands down he is what every team has ever hoped for, and he continued to improve his game every year.
The Big O might have really been a 2-3 today but he was an outstanding playmaker, maybe the best all around stat sheet guy ever. I saw more of what a difference Stockton could make than I did Cousy so he gets the nod. Isiah might object but he played too much of a scoring role and I just don’t agree with point guards being shoot first type of players, if that was the case Allen Iverson would be my guy. When Stockton competed against Isiah he outplayed him in my opinion. The difference is Championships. Isiah wins! I am still sticking with Stockton, his Dream team status makes him my guy.
C- Center is all the way Wilt, if anyone saw Kobe’s 81 then you just have to admit any player at a professional level dominating at a clip like that is just absurd, no doubt the best ever. 100 points how ridiculous is that! His last few years he did get outplayed by young Lew Alcindor (KAJ) and of course we all should know how Russell out-hustled everyone he ever played against so his determination and Championships gets him on this list. Russell had the smartest coach/Gm in the game and the Celtics had All-Star Teams every year it seemed like.
SF- The SF position is tough Elgin may have been the best, unreal ball handling, moves like Jordan and Dr.J, a scoring machine, his lack of a title sure hurts. His competition wasn’t as tough as Birds. Bird had range, smarts overcame being a no jumps guy and rebounded like a madman when he needed to and just won championships. To make it even harder I picked Rick Barry over Dr.J . Rick was a better all around player and led his team in so many areas he was outstanding, maybe even ahead of Bird. He and Dr. J, both lost precious years to the ABA.
Now Elvin Hayes is what I want in a Power Forward, dominates, can go past you, rebounds, plays both center and PF and can post anyone, not to mention block shots. No one was better to me ever! Karl and George Mikan are great but Elvin would have given both guys fits. He outplayed Kareem in College and seemed to always have an edge in big match-ups. Somehow a guy named Keith Wilkes got away from him in the 1975 Finals and embarrassed him pretty badly. He played a little too long but he was great. We all know about Malone, undoubtedly the premiere PF of his time. Mikan was a center and his skills may not have been what we have today but he would be playing a PF positon if he were in this league. I had a hard time not putting Dave DeBusschere, Barkley and Tim Duncan on this thing. TimD is the only player that is playing today that will make it on this list Automatic. He is that good, along with his championships he might end up being the best ever, and to top it off might not be done winning rings either. It probably isn’t fair to Bob Petit but man those teams just were no match for what has happened to the league since the 70’s in overall performance. Ultimate 6th Man has to go to John Havlicek, guy played hard always and made a team of nobodies win a Championship in I think 73 – true warrior.

First, thanks K Bros. for posting to my occasional blog. You guys are always class.
Second, I'm guilty of fuzzy writing. Phil clearly discussed the incident with Shaq and Tex in his book. I was raving (and it's never smart to rave) about the fact that he emphasized so much that Kobe was uncoachable while just sort of leaving the Shaq incident for what it was.
Phil did address the incident in his book (page 233) and he later said one of his great regrets about that day was that he did not defend Tex, the man to whom he owes so much.
I take the line that Phil clearly campaigned against Kobe beginning very early in the 2003-04 season and that his book was part of that campaign. Phil's goal in this campaign was to have Kobe traded and to retain Shaq.
That campaign cost Phil his job the first time. Jerry Buss sided with the bright young talent over the old, fading, grumpy one. The enduring questions are, what if Phil had found a way to soothe Shaq's hatred of Kobe? Could they have all stayed together? Will Shaq ever be held accountable for that hatred? People all over the world perceive Kobe as the problem child/huge jerk with the Lakers, because that was the central message of Phil's campaign. Tex says that just isn't true. Kobe wasn't the problem. I emphasize the Shaq incident because he acted like a horse's rump that season, a baby angry that he wouldn't get his $30 million per season. (He sure seems happy now playing in Miami for $20 mil per year.)

Third, Pfunk's questions about Wade in the triangle are outstanding. I think Wade would function just as any great player has in the triangle. Michael and Kobe both agree that it sometimes annoys them yet makes their success possible, especially in the playoffs. As a young player, Kobe asked me to put him in contact with Tex (who was then an assistant with the Bulls) because it was his goal to play for Tex in the triangle.
I think the biggest misunderstanding about the triangle is its rigidity. It's an amazingly flexible offensive system. It does require players with an open mind who are willing to learn to "read" the defense and "read" the floor. Once players do that, they find themselves free to choose options, because the coaches are not constantly calling plays and controlling the game. Within the system, players have incredible freedom to read and take what the defense gives them.
The real issue in my post comes to the Death of Defense, which I think is an important article. Tex feels the NBA is juicing the game to produce offensive numbers. It becomes impossible to guard a guy like Wade if the defense is not allowed to even touch him.
Tex is not advocating thuggery. To the contrary, he likes to see offensive players be allowed to function. However, he doesn't think players should routinely be sent to the line 15 to 20 times per game. He thinks the NBA needs to back off this touch foul thing. Not everyone in my Lindy's Pro Basketball Annual article agrees.
But they all agree on this: Now that the NBA has found a system for bumping up scoring and promoting stars, it won't go back to the old system.
Ever the stoic, Dumars says players, coaches and GMs must adjust. Dumars has done that by signing Flip Murray. The game, he says, will put a premium on quick guards who can defend the perimeter without too much contact.
This is a point that Mitch and the Lakers better attack. They need someone really young and quick to stop penetration.
Tex agrees that the NBA won't change what it has done. He agrees everyone must adjust. But he adds that the NBA and its officials need to back off of calling so many touch fouls.
It radically changes the game.
Ricky Barry, meanwhile, says the old timers would love to play under these new rules. Scoring would be gravy for the great ones.
My best to all my friends on the Lakers blog. You know hoops, and you treat me politely, even when I don't always deserve it.

Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
editor of Lindy's Pro Basketball Annual

pfunk36,

"Will Phil and Tex adopt this philosophy and continue to evolve or has there evolution reached a plateau in learning?

For the Laker's and Kobe's sake I hope it's the former."

Have no fear o laker fan, the answer to your question is it doesn't matter. This is but yet another obstacle on Kobe's path to greatness. Bind my man's ankles with shackles (a.ka. the triangle, a.k.a. my coach is PJ ), and in due time he'll learn to run faster than the rest of the league inspite of those shackles.

In Kobe We Trust,
Go Lakers

Mr. Lazenby,

Thanks for the insightful and interesting article.

I always appreciate them.

And thanks to BK for the link.

Lakers

Andrew Z,
The triangle is made to order for a team of smart, disciplined players who can hit open shots. In the same sense as the offense that Air Force and Princeton have used. Having great athletes (i.e. Jordan, Pippen, Kobe) in it makes it even better. The problem is that most players today aren't disciplined enough to do it.

Roland:

“I think the biggest misunderstanding about the triangle is its rigidity. It's an amazingly flexible offensive system. It does require players with an open mind who are willing to learn to "read" the defense and "read" the floor. Once players do that, they find themselves free to choose options, because the coaches are not constantly calling plays and controlling the game. Within the system, players have incredible freedom to read and take what the defense gives them.”

Thank you for reminding everybody that the Triangle Offense can easily be adjusted to work with dramatically different types of rosters. Phil has used the Triangle to win with and without a dominant center and he surely could do the same WITH and without a “true” point guard.

Tom

Thanks again, folks.
You guys have lots of understanding. Have you ever read or heard a great debate where you end up thinking, they're both right, or damn near?
That sounds like you folks debating the triangle/point guard issue.
Obviously, you understand the issues.
So let me go to Tex's take. The point guard is less important in the triange, because the idea is to penetrate the defense with the pass more so than the dribble. Tex likes dribble penetration, but he'd rather kill you with the pass, moving the ball to the weak side where a brilliant player can hide the behind the defense, then attack.
And with all players reading the defense and sharing the ball, the system is less dependent on one brilliant guard breaking down the defense and dominating the ball while doing it.
As several of you have pointed out, Tex looks for someone to initiate the offense, but that doesn't always have to be the same person. Actually, the great idea is to have three or more people capable of getting the team into its offense.
Think about it: The two key positions in basketball are the point guard and center. Yet Tex has a system that relies on floor balance and other offensive principles. So he really doesn't have to have either a great center or a great point guard.
But it sure helps.
Could the Lakers win as they are now constituted. Perhaps. But I don't think the key actually is the offense.
If they had a brilliant defender like Scottie Pippen, one able to help and recover and control the game with is long-armed, active defense, well, the Lakers would be competitive. Odom is a really good player, but he's not yet comfortable in the offense.
Will he find that comfort zone this season? That will be a key.
But even bigger, will the Lakers find a way to get solid defensively?
My thought is, what's wrong with the universe? Ron Artest is just the kind of player the Lakers needed. Just the kind of player to flourish and gain some stability as a person playing for Phil.
Yes, I am hard on Phil. But he is a brilliant, revolutionary coach, for two reasons:
1) He has listened to and honored Tex;
2) He's genius level in the building of the relationships that are critical to great teams.
Even though his hip troubles him greatly, he has a recharged Tex this season.
Do they have the personnel to play well defensively this season?
If so, that will be a huge surprise.

Roland Lazenby
author of The Show and editor of Lindy's Pro Basketball Annual

Roland:

Thanks for weighing in on our ongoing debate about the role and importance of the point guard in Tex's Triangle Offense. Your tactful and common sense response was appreciated and makes it clear that both sides had valid points.

I think we can all agree with your comment that the Triangle Offense is unique in that you do not need a need a “true” point guard or “dominant” center in order to be successful, but that having a “true” point guard or a dominant center “sure helps.”

I think the Bulls’ six championships were text book examples of how the Triangle Offense could succeed without either a “dominant” center or “true” point guard. Similarly, the Lakers’ three championships showed us how a “dominant” center could make the Triangle Offense even more effective. I am hoping that Jordan Farmar will be able to show us how much better the Triangle Offense can be with a “true” point guard.

Whether it is Farmar, Parker, or Williams, I believe the Lakers really need dramatically improved play from their point guard. It was not a coincidence that the insertion of Luke Walton at small forward resulted in greatly improved team play last year. The more players in the lineup with sound playmaking skills, the better any offense, especially the Triangle, is going to run.

Despite Smush’s efforts, the weakest link in our team last year was at the point guard position, not only on defense but also as a playmaker and initiator within the Triangle Offense and in transition. As Tex explained in your earlier post, we need improved guard play so we play Kobe at the 3 in the Triangle where he “can hide the behind the defense, then attack.”

From your comments about defense, it sounds as if you would have preferred the Lakers to have traded Lamar Odom for Ron Artest, assuming that option had really been available. Despite how much we all love Lamar, we have all probably had second thoughts seeing how Artest impacted the Kings.

I think the keys to this season are the growth of Kobe as the team leader, the development of Lamar and Kwame as top flight players, and the emergence of somebody at point guard who can defend the position and provide the floor leadership, consistent playmaking, and clutch scoring that was missing at that position last year. In my opinion, Farmar will become that player at some point this year.

Tom

Extra! Extra! (9-19)

Roland has a new thread. Not exactly Laker news directly, but still an awesome read!

>_<