Thank You RichDaDCLakerFan...
... Because we could use a break from debating Smush vs. Farmar, Pinnock vs. "The System," and "KG Joining the Lakers" vs. "Ain't Gonna Happen." And your comment presents a pretty cool topic of discussion.
"Of all of the role players we have had over the years, do you think there are some role players worthy of having their jersey retired? The first one that comes to mind who should be considered is Michael Cooper. He was on all 5 Showtime Laker championship teams, defensive player of the year 86-87, and played his entire career with the team. Any thoughts?"
Interesting question, indeed.
I remember when Robert Horry was en route to winning his sixth ring with San Antonio (and hitting his typical array of clutch shots to make it happen), it spurred (sorry!) a debate between BK and I that lasted roughly a week. The subject? Should role players be allowed in the Hall of Fame? I won't subject y'all to a complete rehash of our yapping. You good people certainly don't deserve that. But in a nutshell, even though there would be inherent problems (how to truly judge one role guy against the next, since much of what they do isn't stat heavy), I liked the idea simply because rewarding standout guys of that nature appealed to me, imperfections be damned. BK was against it because he hates Robert Horry. Or more accurately, because aside from issues already presented, guys who simply weren't good enough to be HOF players — as opposed to sacrificing stats for team — could end up enshrined (which may diminish the point of the Hall itself) and someone like Horry may have an unfair advantage due to the teams he played with. In the end, nothing was decided for sure (other than BK and I having way too much time on our hands), but it was a lively discussion. And it sort of reminds me of Rich's question. If the HOF is indeed too much, even for the best of role players, perhaps the team should be doing something on their behalf.
As far as literally retiring the numbers, put aside the "who's to say blah blah blah is better than blah blah blah?" arguments. The biggest problem I see is eventually running out of numbers for current players. Seriously. Say there are one or two outstanding role players every few seasons (and with the Lakers' stellar track record in this regard, that could be guesstimating on the low side). If each of those guys' numbers go the way of the Logo, Cap or Goodrich (not to mention inevitable candidates like Kobe and Shaq), we're eventually gonna see Lakers with decimal pointed digits, letters or shapes under the names on their jerseys. They'll even burn through the weirdo numbers like 73 and 91 that only the Rodmans and Artests of the world wear. Therefore, a formal retirement may require the kabash on a purely practical level.
What I do think could work and would definitely be cool, though, is some item next to the retired jerseys that lists all the exceptional role players. It could be an oversized jersey, a plaque, whatever. Those invaluable guys get their due and a suitable assortment of numbers remain open for use.
Would you get behind this? Or do you think while role players should be appreciated, there are certain honors reserved for stars and stars only?
—AK
Eric:
Thank you for bringing a note of optimism to the blog. I respect your opinion as well as your bravery in exposing yourself to the dangers of the blog. Hopefully, our respect for you will minimize the incoming. Go, Lakers.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 05:38 PM
Mike T.,
Although the writtig was on the wall for Mihm last summer when we got Kwame and Bynum, I just don't think that they are developed enough to throw Chris into the boneyard just yet. Guys like Chris grow on trees, TALL trees!
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | August 31, 2006 at 05:39 PM
A frontcourt of Kwame Brown, Shawn Kemp, and Darius Miles. Wow, who would have thought.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 05:40 PM
MikeT I am officially begging you to please give Mihm just one more chance to prove he can contribute to the Lakers success...just one more chance...pleeeeeeeeeze!
Posted by: Guity | August 31, 2006 at 05:42 PM
Guity,
LOL! Funny. dan the man said it best. When the Lakers traded for Brown and drafted Bynum it was over for Mihm. Too bad we couldn't get the Hawks to give us Harrington for Mihm. They decided to go with a lottery protected 1st round draft choice instead of Mihm and his 1 year left on his contract. To add insult to injury they signed some stiff named Lorenzo something or the other before the would take Mihm. Doesn't that tell you something? You think it's a secret that teams don't know that Mihm has serious defensive liabilities? He had that reputation before he got to the Lakers. Why does this stuff bother you guys? It's not like it's not true and that's it's not common knowledge.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 06:02 PM
joninjapan:
I wasn’t really sure how to interpret your Farmar stats but suspect they were the stats you believed he had a 2500 to 1 shot to achieve. You should save them though as your subconscious may have given you a better insight to what he might really do this year. Then you can claim you meant them as a real prediction.
My dad was a Buddhist, my mom was a Catholic, and I was raised as a Methodist but I probably consider myself now to be an atheist seriously considering agnosticism as I get older.
How about you?
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:06 PM
wiZo:
Dang. I totally forgot about Doug on my Hated List. Maybe we need a list for hated spouses. Or totally deluded players. Or just plain crazy couples.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:06 PM
Peter:
I agree with about JJ. I was sorry to see him traded last year for basically nothing, or was that the 2nd rounder we used on Pinnock?
Man, I still pine for Bonzi. Maybe sonny could work out a sign and trade for Cook, McKie, and Sasha. Bonzi would make us totally dangerous. I would even consider including Mihm if it weren’t the Kings who were involved.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:07 PM
Andrew Z:
That’s more like it. I agree with you on Chris Mihm and your point about experience involving Cook and McKie makes good sense, although I am not sure that McKie can walk onto the court anymore. Are we sure he is still alive? Darius Miles is almost as big a joke as Shawn Kemp as an option for the Lakers. No way do we give up a character guy like Mihm for Miles. Or really for anybody until we know how far Andrew has come. In fact, I think one of the best things that could happen for the Lakers is if Mihm really challenged Kwame for the job as starting center. It’s time that Kwame stopped being babied. I still like having all three of our centers.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:07 PM
Mike:
Let’s see. You would have us give away Mihm and Cook to get Darius Miles. Promote Turiaf, who has really shown nothing except a great propensity to draw fouls, and sign Shawn Kemp so that Miles will have a smoking buddy.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:08 PM
Faith:
It is interesting that there was unsubstantiated talk of Smush being involved in the Laker’s proposals for Harrington but I have not heard any rumors about Sasha. If Farmar comes out of the gate strong, it is possible that Smush might end up in a trade before the mid-season deadline, especially if he has not recovered from the Suns’ series or cannot handle being demoted to the bench.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:08 PM
Darius Miles, Shawn Kemp for the coming season? NO WAY!
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:11 PM
Laker Tom
the L.A. Bakers!lol
-_-
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | August 31, 2006 at 06:13 PM
Laker Tom,
Behave before I have you calliing out to AK and BK for help. Someone tell Laker Tom that I never said anything about Kemp being a Laker. Talk about smoking something. All this because I say Mihm is out as a starter and should be traded. Why is that so hard to accept. Why does Mihm have such high regard for you guys? He's a bust. Move on.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 06:14 PM
I am a true believer.
Go Kings!
Go Monarchs!
Go Niners!
I worship my balls.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | August 31, 2006 at 06:17 PM
I think it makes a lot more sense to keep Cook rather than Green. You never know when there will come a time when you need a hot hand and Brian can sure deliver that at times. What if Vlade gets injured or goes cold. Cook has said he is working on taking the ball to the basket and being more aggressive and it is his contract year. He is better choice to keep on the roster than Green. And since we can store Pinnock in Europe (Sorry, Edwin), I would definitely keep Cook. He and Mihm are our only real tradable assets also. Nobody is going to trade for Pinnock or Green.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:19 PM
Mihm will also get some minutes at the 4 besides the 5. That will end up totalling a solid 20 minutes per game minimum.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:21 PM
The debate about Mihm and Kwame is pointless. Whoever wins the starting job is only keeping it warm until Bynum is ready. We know what Mihm can do or can't do. His ceiling isn't too high. Kwame on the other hand had a very high ceiling (read potential) but the window is closing if he doesn't have a break out year this year. Worst case scenario is in two or three years we find out we have zero championship quality centers; best case scenario, we have a star (Bynum) and a good defensive back-up center (Kwame). Let's hope for the best.
Posted by: rdlee | August 31, 2006 at 06:26 PM
Roger B:
I don’t really like the international rules although we do need to change some of our rules, especially to take away the ability of players to undercut guys going to the hoop.
As as elder, maybe you remember as I do well what happened in all of the gyms and on all of the playgrounds when the 3-pt shot emerged. I remember carring a rope and chalk in the trunk of my car to update the floor wherever we were playing so we could shoot 3-pointers. If the international rules were to be adopted, we would all have to find a way to get that crazy trapezoid key installed in every gym and on every playground.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:33 PM
Laker Tom,
They had rope back in your day? (j/k)
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | August 31, 2006 at 06:37 PM
Mike:
"It's also been said that Tex doesn't represent what the Lakers think."
I think that above statement is not fair to Tex. The truth is that Phil Jackson greatly values Tex's input and constantly asks him to evaluate the team and various players, as he did this summer.
The above comments were probably derived from the fact that Tex, like some of us on the blog, has no hesitation in calling out any player, whether it be MJ or Kobe, if he feels they are not doing something right. As a result, he has always been used by Phil to say the things to players that Phil didn't want to come directly from him or that might adversely affect his relationship with the player, but that he felt the player should hear.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:41 PM
dan:
the L.A. Bakers!lol
They had rope back in your day? (j/k)
Huh?
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 06:47 PM
Mike T:
Move on to another topic already. Reading your posts is worse than watching summer re-runs on TV.
Posted by: rdlee | August 31, 2006 at 06:57 PM
Then don't read them. Mihm is out! Accept it! Mihm is out!
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 07:02 PM
Just for you information, there are 15 players on the Lakers roster. There is only so much that can be said. This conversation was about amount of minutes Mihm was going to get next season. I said no more than 18. But as it is you right to read or not read what someone says, it's my right to write what I please. If you don't like it, too bad.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 07:05 PM
Laker Tom
To be honest, I don't even like the three point shot, although it would have been fun having it as an option back in my playing days. Originally, I didn't have a problem with it, as it was used sparingly, and only when teams were desperate at the end of games. I think that I read somewhere that the showtime Lakers with Magic Johnson, only attempted 3 or 4 3s a game. But now, it has become the main option for a lot of teams as players have adapted and it is a fairly easy NBA shot. Running back and forth and launching 3s all game long doesn't thrill me anymore. Except when a Laker player hits one!
Roger
Posted by: Roger B | August 31, 2006 at 07:08 PM
Jman449,
"Shaqass"
Funny as Hell! I laughed out loud and scared the wife and kids!
--Fearless
Posted by: Fearless | August 31, 2006 at 08:10 PM
Laker Tom,
Sorry, just a couple of failed attempts to be funny. This long offseason is making me crazy!!
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | August 31, 2006 at 08:19 PM
So, we're all in agreement? Christie is a Punk?
Wow! I never thought we could get the whole blog to agree on anything.
It also looks like sentiment for Nick the Quick is about 50-50, which has always been the case for him. I dig him, though. He held down the fort for us. Then, went on to show some grit and fortitude in winning his own ring.
Most of the "role players" that have played for the Lakers appear to be the favorite or number two favorite of some Blogger here. That means that overall our management has done a good job of finding those diamonds in the rough. And, since these guys span several decades, it seems to be ingrained into the Laker way to find that amazing contributor that everyone else passes on.
Not too bad, I think. Plus, it looks like we might have between 2 and 4 more guys that fit into the "how did those other teams miss this guy" category.
I'm happy where we are, and I can't WAIT for the season to start.
--Fearless
Posted by: Fearless | August 31, 2006 at 08:22 PM
Roger:
The other reason teams shot it less back in Magic's day was that it was a longer shot (not on the side but at the top of the key).
Posted by: rdlee | August 31, 2006 at 08:22 PM
Roger and rdlee,
You two hit on a very important point in the "why Scott should be a HOF" debate. Dude led the league in 3 point shooting % with the old way-out three point line. Plus, he shot from the top most times, where its the longest (well, he and Coop used to shoot it from there). He was over 42% that year, if I'm correct.
Man-size three pointers.
BTW, for you math people, his efficiency was equivalent to making 63% on two pointers. That year, Riles should have popped him in the back of the head whenever he shot from inside the arc!
--Fearless
Posted by: Fearless | August 31, 2006 at 08:38 PM
All right, no more chances for Mihm. He is toast. It's been so long since I saw him play I can barely remember him anyway. Which one of us has to spill the news to him that he has been cut? What if he doesn't believe us?
Posted by: Guity | August 31, 2006 at 08:43 PM
Guity:
Never, Never, Never give up. The blog will sense your weakness and go for your throat every time, just like a rabid dog. You made good points but there will always be posters that disagree. That the nature of the blog. Be tough, like Kobe: Love me or hate me. You are right about Chris Mihm and a lot of us support your position. Be strong, bro.
I do agree with Mike that Kwame is our best bet for center until Bynum is ready but Chris Mihm could be the best backup center in the league as well as a good backup to Lamar at the 4 until Turiaff is ready to contribute. Until Bynum and Turiaf prove they are ready to play significant minutes, we need to keep Mihm. And you can bet that he is looking to have a breakout year as his contract is up.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 09:14 PM
I just got back reading the blog in late afternoon, this what happens when the gladiators are already tired, they accused each other of smokin' haha!! This is what I found out:
Mihm was already dropped, he's out of any discussion because he's out period.
Farmar is still in but his agent in the blog is smokin'
New word in NBA Shaqass
Nobody is calling Kwame. (I think he's incommunicado, he had a stressful spring season, now that he's free, it's vacation time. Work commences by 2nd week of October. He's not paid in August - September)
Dan the man was under attack since 3PM! lol!!!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | August 31, 2006 at 09:14 PM
dan:
Whew. I been ducking so much I thought I missed something. In fact, I can hardly get any work done trying to keep up with all of the hits. Man, we all really need the season to begin tomorrow.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 09:15 PM
Tom
"Shawn Kemp so that Miles will have a smoking buddy"
LMFAO maybe theyll both get caught smoking thrown into jail, have their contracts ripped up so the Lakers clear more cap space so we can sign a big FA in 08 LOL. Bring on Kemp and Miles!!!
Posted by: Shady | August 31, 2006 at 09:41 PM
exhelodrvr:
I actually agree with most of your post (see McKie thread), although I obviously still think there is an outside chance we can win it all this year. Otherwise, you and I actually view the team very similarly.
You are right that the strategy that we have really adopted is to fill the roster with promising, talented young players – projects in many cases – that management believes have great upsides and will be able to be molded by our coaching staff into a potent and deep championship team. And I, for one, think that that is the way that you build a championship team, from within. That is why I never supported the old “save cap space for a max free agent” strategy. We have Kobe and enough good young talent around him to do it this way. If we don’t win it all this year, the player we sign with next year’s MLE complete the puzzle. We really don’t need a superstar.
What obviously jumps out to all of us is the level of competition that has been created going into training camp, which I agree has been designed to produce a strong, pushed starter and a greatly improved and capable backup. It is hard not to imagine a much deeper and more talented rotation for this year’s team than last year’s. There are going to be a couple of pretty good players who are going to spend a lot of time on the inactive list. It is an amazing contrast when you compare the level of competition this year versus last year. I’m a strong believer that most players only get better by being pushed.
The competition between Farmar, Smush, and Williams at point guard will accelerate Farmar’s growth and ascendancy to the starting position while giving us two tested veterans to back him up. The addition of Evans and the pressure on Sasha should gives us much better options when Kobe is not on the court. The battle between Kwame, Mihm, and Bynum at center should give us a much stronger and forceful front line. And the battle for starting jobs and time at the forward positions should push Lamar and Vlade to become better players and challenge Luke, Ronny, and even Cookie to take their game to the next level. I also expect some experimenting with Kwame and Mihm both at the 4, especially if Bynum starts to respond as we hope he will.
There is an interesting dynamic involving contract years and battles not only for starting positions but also just for playing time that should really be fun to watch. I really have to say that I think Mitch has done a great job putting together this team, especially considering we are still only two years past the dismantling of the Shaq/Kobe dynasty. I think that is a good note to sign off and go to bed. Thanks for your post. It’s nice to end the day on a positive rather than a defensive note.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 10:08 PM
Mike T,
as highly as you may think of kwame and whoever else mihm is still our most consistent center, yes kwame has more petential, but until he does something productive it will be just that "potential".
Oh also the stiff Lorenzen wright that atlanta signed is a 10 year vet that has started the majority of his career and a model citizen, a very good defender, he has had a decent career and will be a good role model for all the kids they have down in atlanta. plus he comes about $1.5 mil cheaper than mihm does.
Also unless we sign another center mihm will be right here on our roster. As someone else said earlier there is not enough depth at the center position for us to let mihm go except is we are getting back another center or a PF that can double as a center.
Posted by: ose | September 01, 2006 at 01:04 AM
Sorry Fearless,
If for no other reason than a sharp uppercut to pretty boys jaw, and a continued ass whoopin' in the tunnel, Doug Christie remains one of my heroes.
Jackie is another story altogether.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | September 01, 2006 at 02:23 AM
Tom,
Just to let you know:
The L.A. Bakers was based on your comment about Kemp and Miles being smoking buddies.
"They had rope in your day?" should have read- "They had rope back when you were young?"
Don't worry, I won't quit my day job..lol.
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | September 01, 2006 at 07:31 AM
Edwin,
Under attack? Maybe it's early in the morning, but I don't understand. Please clarify.
Or do I want to know?
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | September 01, 2006 at 07:40 AM
Vlade Divac must be put into the Laker Ring of Honor or whatever. Vlade was dope. Not only did he have game, his departure got us Kobe. Then he came back to help us. Vlade should definitely be recognized. Just him being a King for a while and pissing me off during that time bring his stock down.
Posted by: David Whang | September 01, 2006 at 08:53 AM
LakerTom,
I knew you'd give me sh*t for Eric Pincus' clarification. lol.
It's all good though, I want the Lakers to be the best anyway.
I think where you and I differ is that you convince yourself that guys like LO and Kwame and Farmar are going to consistently deliver the high level of play they had at the end of their respective seasons last year, and I am a wait and see until the prove it to me now kind of guy.
I do see our glass as half full, but I also realize it could be half full of piss. Only time will tell and I'm not willing to give any of these guys the benefit of the doubt until they show me something.
Posted by: Andrew Z | September 01, 2006 at 09:02 AM
Mike T
I am with you on Mihm. Been through with him since before his ankle went bum. Everyone forgets, he was bench when we got him. He fell into the starting slot when Vlad the Flopper went down hard and never came back. He had been in the L for a few years and never showed the potential of a starter.
T-Woody
Posted by: T-Woody | September 01, 2006 at 09:10 AM
Dan the Man & Guity,
I know what the USA Team need in order to assure the dominance back to USA in '08? They need Draft Pick #1 Kwame Brown and Superboy Jordan Farmar. What do you think?
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | September 01, 2006 at 09:26 AM
Edwin,
They just need Kobe "Killer Instinct" Bryant in the mix. With a 6 pt loss, he would have thrown the dagger down!
I think there is the time for team work and there needs to be a time for someone to take control of a game. You put the greatest scorer in the game today on an international stage and he will bring it. Nobody was willing to step up and control the game from our side. We all know Kobe can take over a game like no one else when the chips are down.
T-Woody
Posted by: T-Woody | September 01, 2006 at 09:45 AM
or bring in the womens team, they know how to decimate an opponent!
Ha HA
T-Woody
Posted by: T-Woody | September 01, 2006 at 09:46 AM
LakerTom,
The problem is when the players don't really want (as in "not willing to work hard") to get better. That has been Kwame's problem so far in his career, and Lamar, as well, although with him I think it's more a case of unwillingness to be more aggressive as opposed to an unwillingness to put in work. Have to see if Smush, Bynum, Farmar, and Parker have that work ethic.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | September 01, 2006 at 09:59 AM
Edwin,
This was a sad day for USA. It makes sense that Kobe could have put them over the top, but the fact that all those superstars still need to have Kobe to win suggests the U.S. isn't so much the center of the universe in basketball anymore.
Posted by: Guity | September 01, 2006 at 10:45 AM
TOP 5 Players
1) Lamar - I just love the attitude. He could be one of the most dominant players in the league if he just realized his potential. I mean, no one can guard him. He is just too nice to do so.
2) Kobe - Must I give a reason? His game is perfect.
3) Manu - This guy is dope. He is one of the best scorers and loves to drive.
4) Shaq - I ain't too happy about his decisions and such but c'mon... without him we would have no rings. Plus he's pretty damn funny and is usually a nice guy. He is just bittersome.
5) Allen Iverson - Dude is a warrior. AI is a bad ass man.
Honorable mention - Paul Pierce - He's from Inglewood and he is dope. Oh and Vince Carter is amazing to watch.
5 MOST HATEFUL LIST
1) Tim Duncan - I respect him and think he has a good character.. but man... his game is so slow.
2) Raja Bell *and the rest of the Suns- Oh my god I wanted to choke him. Oh I hate his game and his attitude. I hate the suns too.
3) Doug Christie *and the rest of the Kings - Oh my god I wanted to choke him. Oh I hate his game and his attitude. I hate the Kings too.
4) Antoine Walker - Dude's game blows. He makes a lot of threes but that's because he takes too many threes. OVERRATED!
5) Chris Webber - This guys has so much talent but settles for jumpshots to protect his pretty face. Just drive to the basket please. And I REALLY hated him during his Kings era.. rather.. jailtime.
TOP 3 Teams I hate
1) Suns
2) Spurs
3) Kings
Posted by: David Whang | September 01, 2006 at 12:15 PM