Thank You RichDaDCLakerFan...
... Because we could use a break from debating Smush vs. Farmar, Pinnock vs. "The System," and "KG Joining the Lakers" vs. "Ain't Gonna Happen." And your comment presents a pretty cool topic of discussion.
"Of all of the role players we have had over the years, do you think there are some role players worthy of having their jersey retired? The first one that comes to mind who should be considered is Michael Cooper. He was on all 5 Showtime Laker championship teams, defensive player of the year 86-87, and played his entire career with the team. Any thoughts?"
Interesting question, indeed.
I remember when Robert Horry was en route to winning his sixth ring with San Antonio (and hitting his typical array of clutch shots to make it happen), it spurred (sorry!) a debate between BK and I that lasted roughly a week. The subject? Should role players be allowed in the Hall of Fame? I won't subject y'all to a complete rehash of our yapping. You good people certainly don't deserve that. But in a nutshell, even though there would be inherent problems (how to truly judge one role guy against the next, since much of what they do isn't stat heavy), I liked the idea simply because rewarding standout guys of that nature appealed to me, imperfections be damned. BK was against it because he hates Robert Horry. Or more accurately, because aside from issues already presented, guys who simply weren't good enough to be HOF players — as opposed to sacrificing stats for team — could end up enshrined (which may diminish the point of the Hall itself) and someone like Horry may have an unfair advantage due to the teams he played with. In the end, nothing was decided for sure (other than BK and I having way too much time on our hands), but it was a lively discussion. And it sort of reminds me of Rich's question. If the HOF is indeed too much, even for the best of role players, perhaps the team should be doing something on their behalf.
As far as literally retiring the numbers, put aside the "who's to say blah blah blah is better than blah blah blah?" arguments. The biggest problem I see is eventually running out of numbers for current players. Seriously. Say there are one or two outstanding role players every few seasons (and with the Lakers' stellar track record in this regard, that could be guesstimating on the low side). If each of those guys' numbers go the way of the Logo, Cap or Goodrich (not to mention inevitable candidates like Kobe and Shaq), we're eventually gonna see Lakers with decimal pointed digits, letters or shapes under the names on their jerseys. They'll even burn through the weirdo numbers like 73 and 91 that only the Rodmans and Artests of the world wear. Therefore, a formal retirement may require the kabash on a purely practical level.
What I do think could work and would definitely be cool, though, is some item next to the retired jerseys that lists all the exceptional role players. It could be an oversized jersey, a plaque, whatever. Those invaluable guys get their due and a suitable assortment of numbers remain open for use.
Would you get behind this? Or do you think while role players should be appreciated, there are certain honors reserved for stars and stars only?
—AK
Andrew Z,
Check out T-Woody's post of 2:29 pm.
Go Team USA women!
Go Monarchs!
Posted by: sonnybelfast | August 31, 2006 at 03:19 PM
Am I the only one that thinks they should lower the rim for women by 2 feet?
I'm saying they can't play, but the added dunks would undoubtedly make it more watchable. It can't make it any worse.
B.
Thee Cali King
Posted by: Cali King | August 31, 2006 at 03:20 PM
Taliq,
What you're saying about Shaq is true, but that has nothing to do with the way we are arguing Duncan's size. Put it like this, if Shaq had a better jumpshot would you consider him a PF? No, because he has the body of a center!!!!!
Duncan is 7', strong, and has a good back to the basket game, but because he can shoot a jump shot he's a PF!!?? That just doesn't make sense. To me, if you're 7' or over you are a CENTER!!!!!
The only people I give a pass to are Garnett, and Bosh. Why? Because neither one of them is strong enough to guard centers (which Duncan is he is just too scared to do it), and in Garnetts case he could actually play guard, or SF if he was smaller. Can you say the same thing for Duncan?
Posted by: Weave-Man | August 31, 2006 at 03:20 PM
AZ,
We close the deal at $2.5M Haha!! as if two GM's are talking. Let's watch these players on our roster Shammond, Evans, Farmar, Smush, and Sasha and upcoming Pinnock these players are within that amount and if Eddie Jones comes back to the Lakers he will replace one or two of those guys on the roster. Do you think that makes sense? Just for your info AZ I was one of the guys shouting Ed die ...Ed die...Ed die everytime he makes those three pointers or acrobatic lay-ups. I was so disappointed when JWest traded him for Glen Rice. Here is my question to you or Mike T. or anybody, was this trade an idea of West or Jackson?
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | August 31, 2006 at 03:22 PM
I think Mihm should be moved to back up the PF slot not the C. He can't think fast enough to play there effectivly, he gets lost. His late rotations end up in way to many fouls. Brown's size allows him to clog somewhat effectivly with very slippery fingers. Our only hope is really to see Bynum step things up in a big BIG way this year. Maybe he can start to get the blocks that Shaq and Kareem were able to deliver. We know he can take an elbow from the Diesel.
Although Kwame was one of the best C's last year in stopping KG. He knew people were watching him and he performed in the spotlight of a big game. He needs to bring that game every night and then he will be a big help to us.
T-Woody
Posted by: T-Woody | August 31, 2006 at 03:25 PM
Edwin,
They traded Eddie for Rice before PJ was the coach.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | August 31, 2006 at 03:25 PM
Actually, it was my idea.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | August 31, 2006 at 03:25 PM
Mike T
Core player, lol
AK, spare us from rehashment, "Know Thy Emeny"!!
geez i sound like a broken record
Posted by: joninjapan | August 31, 2006 at 03:29 PM
I thought Jones was traded for Rice during the season in PJ first year.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 03:30 PM
Mike T,
Nope. Eddie and Elden were shuttled for Rice, J.R. Reid and a waived B.J. Armstrong during the '99 season. I believe Rambis was coaching (unless Del hadn't been fired yet). PJ came in the next season with Rice as the starting 3.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | August 31, 2006 at 03:32 PM
Just looked it up and AK, you're right. PJ came a year later.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 03:35 PM
Weave-Man and Taliq,
Sorry to butt in on the argument but Tim Duncan has played PF his entire NBA career, he had David Robinson at center. He has played out of position at the 5, and will probably play a bit more there this year, he's naturally a power forward (and one of the best ever at that).
Posted by: Andrew Z | August 31, 2006 at 03:36 PM
For you Turiaf fans, I too, like his play, but one of his big advantages last year was the element of surprise. When a good player first comes into the league and gets a few minutes at crucial times, he is higher than a than a failed Saint with exoneration papers.
The league will know him next time around and he is, afterall, essentially still a rookie. I wish him well. We may take him aboard.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | August 31, 2006 at 03:38 PM
"Umm what has size got to do with Duncan's position. "
Taliq,
I dont think I particularly singled out size as the primary reason (or mentioned it at all). But while on the subject...No, I dont think size is the most important factor...but is it a factor? Of course. To say its not would be wrong. When any player is scouted or drafted, a question the team has to ask "what will he play?"...and you can bet size is the first characteristic they look at. Well, the guy is 7ft 260lb! He played C in college and was projected as a C in the NBA. Now by fluke chance, D-rob gets hurt, so SA takes the best player in college...forming the twin towers. Had Duncan gone to virtually any other team...he wouldve surely been a C and noone woulda even given a thought otherwise.
Now not only size...but in fact his game is that of a C. So he posts up and has a nice 15-18ft jumper. Well, a lot of Cs have had that also. In fact, even when he played with D-rob, most often on offense Drob would be in the high post and Duncan would be the primary low post option. Also, post D-rob, there were many games towards the end of games Duncan actually plays the C spot. Which was strategically great. During critical stretches, Duncan would in fact play the 5 while Horry was brought in as the 4. The advantage of playing Duncan at the 4 was more evident when matched up against Shaq. I dont think Duncan held his own against shaq. Most of their matchups...they arent matched up! and when they did matchup on occasional possesions...shaq completely OWNED Duncan. And i mean, made him look bad repeatedly.
Duncan could not guard Shaq while Shaq could guard Duncan. All of this benefited Duncan playing the 4.
Comparing Duncan (in both size and game) to some of the recent great Cs and PF's, who does he seem more simliar to? D-Rob, Hakeem, and Ewing? or Barkley, and Malone?
In the end, I will lose the argument, cuz Duncan is listed as a PF. But his game is very much a Center's game and luckily he was drafted by the Spurs who had D-rob. Thus Duncan becomes the "best PF of all time" instead of the "5-8th best C of all time".
Posted by: wiZo | August 31, 2006 at 03:40 PM
Oh no. Sonny, you DID NOT just mention the Monarchs and the WNBA!
This is a SPORTS blog for crying out loud!
Posted by: wiZo | August 31, 2006 at 03:41 PM
Minus Kobe, by mid season, your all rookie team might whoop up on the starters.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | August 31, 2006 at 03:42 PM
WiZO,
Don't tell me. You're not yet another Brokebacker who hates women are you?
Posted by: sonnybelfast | August 31, 2006 at 03:43 PM
"Kwame is a core player"
Mike T.
Did you ever get around to finding that article? or did you just assume we forgot that you made it up?
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | August 31, 2006 at 03:43 PM
as for who'll come off the bench to play when vlad and LO goes to the bench.... i dont think Phil will ever take them both out at the same time.
starting...
kwame
odom
vlad
kobe
parker
sub
mihm
odom
luke
evans
williams
sub
kwame
vlad
luke
kobe
williams
sub
kwame
odom
vlad
kobe
parker
thats for the first half....
Posted by: The Lamar Show | August 31, 2006 at 03:48 PM
Laker Fans
Off the subject a little.......but just when you think the "big baby" really made peace.......he drops this
“Can’t Stop the Reign 2006” here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSQuAkWfIGs
Any comments?
Posted by: Pfunk36 | August 31, 2006 at 03:50 PM
T Woody,
Before I'll go out, I just want to add some info on Andrew Bynum. During the SPL games, he comes out in spurts, there are times when he is dominating like Shaq on the shaded area even when there are tall centers guarding him like Ramos 7'4" of Wizzards who plays with Team Puerto Rico. However, it is one dimensional, he's very slow to react on fast guards and he demands the ball when there is a crowd and would not try to free himself that's why you will recall, Korey was so disappointed with his performance that he recommends him to play in the D'League.
However, if he can master another shot like jump shots, fade away shot or short hook shot like his teacher, follow some techniques of Kwame in guarding big men w/o committing obvious fouls then there is definitely a big improvement for him.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | August 31, 2006 at 03:50 PM
Yeah,
LOL! Wolf posted it for everyone to see. I thought that was a settled issue with me winning again.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 03:51 PM
Gueco out. Belfast out.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | August 31, 2006 at 03:53 PM
dan the man,
That last post was for you. It was mentioned in the Lakers town meeting.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 03:54 PM
Mike T.
Sorry, I must have missed the memo..lol
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | August 31, 2006 at 03:57 PM
On Duncan
maybe he should have played Center maybe not, fate decided that he would play PF during his formative years as an NBA'er and so now he has the skill set of a PF. . .'nuff said haha
On Mihm
i like what he brings to the table offensively, if only that wuold translate well to the bargining table for Mitch. seriously i dont think having LO Kwame as your 4 and 5 with Roony and Bynum as your back up is that bad especially if you can put Walton and even Vlade at the 4 if neccesary. the dudes expendable, its just a matter if hes worth more to us a a trade bait or as money off the payroll next offseason.
On Eddie Jones
havent followed his carrer that avidly, he worked pretty well for me on NBA LIVE 99 but seems old, and expensive, and diminished.
Random
i have never seen an WNBA game. do they have male cheerleaders to distract the audience during timeouts and such?? or do they just stick with female ones. . .(do they even have cheerleaders?)
goodnight to you all, the next time you hear from me i shall be in canada six feet under in school work
Posted by: joninjapan | August 31, 2006 at 03:58 PM
pfunk36,
That video is like a bad SNL skit.
Seriously though, Shaq is a business guy and as much as he says he wants the Shaq-Kobe thing to go away, he knows it's one of the few ways to keep attention on him anymore. The spotlights fading and Shaq's going to do whatever it takes to keep it on him for as long as possible.
Posted by: Andrew Z | August 31, 2006 at 04:00 PM
dan the man,
Run.
Posted by: Andrew Z | August 31, 2006 at 04:01 PM
p.s. Dan the man whats with the crying face?
Posted by: joninjapan | August 31, 2006 at 04:03 PM
Kwame:
He should be the Lakers starting C. He's not great, but he definitely has more potential than Mihm, not to say that Mihm is bad. I think he would be great coming off the bench, as he can be very effective in short spurts. That might affect the minutes needed for Bynum to develop, but thats another post.
Ever since Kwame first came into the league, I have known he can do some damage in the league, and we've seen occasional flashes, both in Washington and here in L.A. I really believe that the worst thing that happened was that he was drafted under Michael Jordan, and was really taught wrong from the beginning, along with having his confidence reduced to practically nothing. Unfortunately, that's now his foundation, so it's taking PJ longer to make corrections to him and his game. But he has the potential, and he seems willing to listen and learn, which is the most important point.
I really believe that the Lakers can win a championship with Kwame at the 5. I'm not saying he's going to be superstar, or even an All-Star, but I have no doubt that he can be effective and efficient at the 5. After all, who did the Bulls have at center? Exactly. Kwame can be AT LEAST that good, and I believe even better.
B.
Cali King
Posted by: Cali King | August 31, 2006 at 04:07 PM
Mike T;
You are conveniently forgetting that with Mihm injured, Jackson had no other options in the playoffs. Every time the subject is Kwame, your memory flies out the window.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | August 31, 2006 at 04:07 PM
joninjapan,
Damn you travel fast!
It's not a crying face, it's a maddog "scowel".lol
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | August 31, 2006 at 04:12 PM
I dont know if anyone has posted this yet but LUKE WALTON=EMMY IN 2K6. http://www.deadspin.com/sports/nba/throw-it-down-big-man-197913.php
Posted by: Eric | August 31, 2006 at 04:14 PM
I didn't forget Mihm got injured. Listen you are in denial if you think Mihm has a shot at getting the starting spot at the 5 spot. It's not going to happen.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 04:15 PM
ajax:
I second your "least favorite" and "favorite" lists. Lakers first, no matter what!
Posted by: RespectMyAuthoritah | August 31, 2006 at 04:16 PM
Actually I think the Lakers are a top 10 team in the league - not the West.
I would say at this point "clearly" better - as much as can be anticipated pre-season anyway - and based on what I predict to be a better record at season's end.
(in no particular order)
Suns
Spurs
Heat
Teams better by record who I think LA can beat head to head in a playoff match up:
Mavs
Clippers
Cavs
Teams too hard to predict who might be better than the Lakers - but then might not:
Pistons
Nets
Kings
Indiana
Bulls
Taking that all into account - I figure LA is at about 9th or 10th best in the league.
Posted by: Eric Pincus | August 31, 2006 at 04:23 PM
You know, there has been quite a bit of time spent discussing who's going to get the starting gig at point guard (Smush vs. Farmar) but in actuality, the starting center position isn't just given to Kwame. Kwame lucked into a starting role at the 5 when Mihm got injured, up to that point he'd played like poop. I know Mihm was happy at Kwame's success and the team's success at the end of the season and part of the playoffs, but let's not think the dude is just going to take this thing lying down. He's in a contract year and Kwame has never been known to be a guy synonymous with "determination", "motivated", "effort" and "hustle" and if Mihm has anything going for him is that he works hard.
I'm excited for camp all around because other than LO and Kobe, every spot is open. Competition is going to help this team.
Posted by: Andrew Z | August 31, 2006 at 04:28 PM
Every time somebody asks what kind of preparations Kwame is making for the forthcoming season, everybody immediately clams up and says nothing. What can we assume except that Kwame is not really making any preparations for the upcoming season? Meanwhile the word is that Mihm has worked himself into full rehabilitation from his operation. Maybe that kind of attitude and work ethic can help Mihm take his starting position back.
The last Kobe quote I remember mentioned how Kobe was calling Lakers to keep them focused on the upcoming season. I saw him mention Mihm as one of the guys he called, but not Kwame? What's up with that?
Posted by: Guity | August 31, 2006 at 04:36 PM
Guity,
Exactly. If Kwame thinks he's just going to waltz in and get handed the starting job, he's wrong. Chris Mihm is going to build on the strong season of improvement he was having and start at center opening night against the Suns.
Eric Pincus,
Wow, I guess I was wrong. They might end up top ten in the league and then they might end up at home watching the playoffs from their couches. Apparently you liked the off-season acquisitions quite a bit more than I did, and feel other teams really didn't improve that much.
I have Lakers as a seven/eight seed in the West, maybe getting out of the first round.
Posted by: Andrew Z | August 31, 2006 at 04:57 PM
Speaking of better teams than the Lakers (Eric Pincus post 4:23pm)
Are the Pistons imploding after the departure of Big Ben? I am wondering if he smelled the coffee before anyone else. The season end was not the cohesive unit they were at the beginning of the year and definately not the team that took us out previously. With Larry and Ben gone it could be the start of something not good in motor city. I like Flip but he lets the team go where they want to, which is not always the best way to run.
I for one, think we can take them like we did last year in Detroit.
Just a thought, but then this is a Laker page not NBA in general.
T-Woody
Posted by: T-Woody | August 31, 2006 at 04:59 PM
In all of Mihm's glory he's only a 10 and 6 guy. And that with extreme hustle. Laying down, standing up...bending over...he's F'ed!
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 05:01 PM
Since the topic of the current blog has pretty much disintegated, I'd like to go in a different direction. I am finding that I really like FIBA basketball. They don't have the ridiculous and annoying rules that the NBA has which drives me up the wall. What I like about FIBA compared to the NBA.
1) Teams can play any kind of defense they want, and can stand any where they want on the floor.
2) No circle under the basket. In the NBA, when an offensive player sees a defender on or inside that line, he immediately makes a beeline for that player, and even if the player is standing still, he will be run over and also be called for a foul.
3) No defensive 3 seconds for players in the key area, not guarding anybody. If a guy doen't want to guard anybody, so what?
4) Doesn't appear to be an obvious star system in place, where prima donna players are allowed to carry the ball over, take extra steps if need be, and charge willy nilly into anyone who happens to be close by, a la Dwayne Wade, Steve Nash, etc.
Except for the last part, the above rules also apply to college basketball. About the only thing that I don't like, is the odd shaped key. Of course, that would only affect players who are not popular with the refs, as some are allowed a good 5-10 seconds in the key ( talking about the NBA now ). Yes, as the announcers keep telling us, the officiating is inconsistent, but I consider that to be better than consistently biased.
Roger
Posted by: Roger B. | August 31, 2006 at 05:03 PM
I think Kwame will follow up where he was at the end of the season. Once the charges were dropped he should be clear headed now. When the charges came up he lost his head and with it our playoff run. Next year will be different, hopefully we can see more than flashes of potential.
T-Woody
Posted by: Tedd Woodford | August 31, 2006 at 05:04 PM
And what about those comments from Tex Winter saying the Lakers really like Mihm and they are considering the possibilities of having Kwame and Mihm play alongside each other?
Posted by: Guity | August 31, 2006 at 05:12 PM
It's also been said that Tex doesn't represent what the Lakers think.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 05:15 PM
"bending over. He's f'd"
Mike T.
Save your prison stories for the shrink pal.LOL.
>_<
Posted by: dan the man >_< aka smushcalade | August 31, 2006 at 05:22 PM
Andrew Z:
Its all speculation until this next season is over so why so much worry about possibly getting our hopes too high that our team is really good? I know you guys think the potential is there for us to be really good. What’s wrong with thinking and hoping it will be true?
Really, I am beginning to think that you and exhelodrvr are really props hired by the K-Bros to man the other end of the spectrum and make sure my comments are responded to.
FYI, I happen to think that the Lakers are a top-10 team and will prove that by the end of the season. And please don’t interpret that as my saying that they are a top-7 team or a top-4 team, although they may prove that they are.
You know, it is the same glass of water that we are all looking at. You can call it half empty if you want, but I prefer to think of it as half full – at least until it is proved otherwise, which won’t be by your or exhelodrvr’s posts or AK’s or BK’s comments, much as I respect all of your opinions and points.
So how about beating some other horse to death. jk.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 05:23 PM
Well this is the drama of the Lakers that will unfold before our very eyes beginning in about a month. It will be so exciting we won't even need to live our own futile and pointless lives any more -- we will only need to watch the Lakers as they progress their way through the NBA...
Posted by: Guity | August 31, 2006 at 05:28 PM
dan the man,
It's funny how Andrew Z said Mihm could pick up where he left off. Let me see, that was picking up 2 fouls within the 1st 5 minutes of the game. It was getting killed on defense. Yeah this guy has a shot at starting for the Lakers. Chris Mihm was given a golden opportunity when he was traded to the Lakers but he did what people already knew. Now 2 years later the only people who think he has a chance at starting are Laker fans on this blog. As Laker fans we're the one who are suppose to see things clearly when it comes to the Lakers. Mihm had his chance and it's not coming back. Ever! It's best to move on from supporting him without justifcation.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | August 31, 2006 at 05:31 PM
Andrew Z.
You said:
"LakerTom:
In reference to your 1:49 post, I think Pincus meant that the Lakers are a top ten team in the West. If you read the paragraph directly ahead of that statement, he speaks about the West and some of the moves that were made by other teams. He then says they're probably closer to 10 than 1.
If I'm wrong maybe Eric Pincus will read this blog and correct me. I don't believe he thinks this Laker team is top ten in the league."
Guess Eric cared enough to correct you. Sorry about that. Getting a little overzealous in your pursuit of "realism." Sorry, but how could I resist. jk.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 31, 2006 at 05:36 PM