Andrew Z (and exhelodrvr):

Just wondered if you are really as pessimistic as you sound or just careful not to get too carried away with any expectations until you "actually" see progress? Not disrespecting you, just trying to understand where you are coming from.

It's funny but I get a feeling that I am somehow emerging as some sort of "outrageous super-optimist" on the Lakers while you and exhelodrvr are becoming categorized as some form of "doomsaying super-pessimists." And maybe that is the truth as I expect we all believe we are being somewhat "realistic" with our various posts and postulations.

Anyway, I was just trying to get a handle on why my optimism, which is, of course, designed to educate and convert other Laker fans to "see the light" always seems to fall on deaf ears with you two. Or vice versa, why your pessimism (or realism, if you prefer) never seems to affect me. Have we staked out the two extremes of the blog and taken over the tasks of offsetting each other?

Please don't missunderstand, I really agree and concur with many of the points you make in your posts and I respect your intelligent replies just as I respect anybody's right to disagree with my opinions. While I've made great predictions and observations over the years involving my Lakers, Yankees, 49ers, and Bruin basketballers, I have also made some real dumb predictions that never had a chance.

There always are many different valid sides to every issue and argument and intelligent and perceptive posters can always find points to support their positions, which we all prove on the blog every day. That's why I also seem to but heads with AK and BK, who seem to be great at holding that middle ground between us as "objective super-realists. Wow, I am digressing like Faith or Ken.

At any rate, back to the question, are you really as pessimistic as you seem or are you just trying to balance us overoptimists? Thanks for listening and replying. This is definitely an end-of-the-week post. I must be smoking some of Ken's stuff or maybe I just got overdosed on one of Edwin's posts.

Tom

Edwin:

Just giving you some props for what I will respectfully call the "stream of consciousness" of your posts and their ususal reasonableness, notwithstanding your recent infatuation with AH. As always, I look forward to and DO read with pleasure any post that has your signature at the end or that of any of the other members of our "community of friends" that regularly contribute.

I was really just doing the same with Andrew Z, exhelodrvr, Faith, and Ken. I always enjoy the give and take and counter punching that goes on between us all and love the fact that we are all Laker fans that care enough to post and participate, even in the dead of summer. I always smile when I refresh my screen and one of you has something to add.

So, to AK and BK and all of you, as Faith just posted, thanks for helping me get through another summer day before the next season starts. I appreciate y'all.

Tom

thanks Andrew Z, that's almost exactly what I've seen from Radmanovic. I just hope he plays differently.

Exhelodrvr, I think you said it exactly right.

LakerTom,
I am not pessimistic, I am realistic. There's a big difference. This Lakers team is decent, but no more than that. There is potential for this group to become pretty good. BUt that is at least another year away.

I really hope the lakers win 55 games this year, but it seems like a lot of people EXPECT this to happen.

You guys/gals need to remember that Kobe and Lamar had injury-free seasons (previous year both had the injury bug), and we jelled at the end of the year with an easy schedule. That's one reason why we improved so much. We can't expect Kwame to suddenly turn into an all-star, Kobe and Lamar have no injuries, Mo Evans to turn into Bruce Bowen, Farmar into Jason Kidd, Lamar turn into Scottie Pippen, and Sammond Williams to turn out even better than Smush. It's just ludicrus.

There's a reason why the pistons traded Evans to us for nothing, Shammond played overseas. Smush was a one-in-a-100 find. He filled in real nice last year (not counting the defense), it's not fair to put that pressure on Shammond, he can shoot European three pointer well-ok that helps. What about defending? Good attitude? B-Ball IQ? We don't know this stuff. We just can't assume that everyone turns into the best possible scenario.

I need to stop rambling on, but I'll continue. We need to remember that Farmar almoast pulled out of the draft because he wasn't nba ready enough. But he stayed in just because of his POTENTIAL.

One more thing, Even though the Rockets have a few(ok a lot) of injury problems, Yao is fixed, and you can't expect T-Mac to be injured all the time. Knock on wood, but Kobe and Lamar were injury-free last year. Luckily Kobe had his knee tendinitis taken care of. Just hope the best for healthiness.

Anyways, this is my prediction of the West.

Dallas
Spurs(no more Nazr, Nisterovic, TD getting older)
Phoenix(I hate Nash, but damn is that dude a PG!)
Denver (Division)
Clippers (Brand 25/10 just like last year)
Lakers(facing Suns in 1st round again :)
Rockets (T-mac, Yao too much)
Hornets (CP3 is a hell of a PG)

I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but just trying to keep it real.

Michael A,

50 wins sounds good, but you are projecting 5th or 6th in the conferance.....Its too pessamistic for me. However, I don't care where they finish, I just want to see this team come together from day one of training camp as a unit.

I have a qustion for you; Lets say that they get the production from the point guard position be it Farmar or Smush. And we the the "Phoenix series" L.O., the expected production fron Kobe and Vlad, and solid post production. where do you see this team finishing during the playoffs, forget the regular season?

Yao is officially the best true center in the league. Shaq's been falling off since he left the Lakers. Not because he left the Lakers, it was just that point in his career. I recently saw Shaq during the championship run with the Lakers on ESPN classic, and hes a shell of what he used to be. If T-Mac is healthy be careful. Alot of people say they have no one else, but we should know: it was Kobe, Shaq, and a bunch of other guys that 3-peated. Of course, thats IF T-Mac is healthy.

B.

Just a brief note on Turiaf. I saw today's France-Greece preparation game for the FIBA championship, a game France won in spite of a couple of Tony Parker turnovers in money time as well as choking on a crucial free throw. Turiaf played some big minutes... at the 5 spot! Not what he likes best, but he was a key factor in clogging the lane, solidifying the defense and keeping the Greeks from running away with the game after taking a big early lead.

He played a little too unselfishly, initiating a couple of turnovers because of dropped or hurried passes to a penetrating scorer instead of going for a close range shot himself (with defenders around him, but less risky than some of the passes). Maybe he thinks he's playing the triangle!

He did take a perfect low bounce pass inside from Parker to jam one with authority (the kind of pass Kwame often lets slip out of his hands). Otherwise Ronny made a point of deferring to all his teammates for the scoring. I expect that attitude will pay off if the other guys on the floor are called Kobe, Valde and Lamar.

The great news was how his presence seemed suddenly to bring the defense together and frustrate the hell out of the Greeks, who, it should be remembered, are an elite team. For the future of Laker D, and depending on rotations, I can see Kwame and Ronny teaming up to make life difficult for NBA foes trying to get inside to score. If Kobe and whoever's playing the point can do their bit harassing the perimeter shooters, we're likely to see a lot of 24" violations from our opponents, exactly what happened to the Greeks. (Of course, when talking about plugging the open boulevard to the hole, an oft-noticed weakness of post-Shaq Laker teams, we also have to consider what Bynum may one day learn how to do -- or rather "be", because it's all about being there and knowing how to "be" when you've got that kind of size).

Too bad we won't see a FIBA final with Ronny challenging Kobe. As for the French team, they have a glut of NBA players now, but they haven't really gelled (neither did the USA team I saw against Brazil). Parker for the moment looks a little lost and Diaw must feel he's back in Atlanta because he isn't doing the kind of things he does with the Suns.

Those are my impressions of just one game seen on TV, so I wouldn't draw any hasty conclusions. But I liked what I saw coming from Ronny, even if there was only one highlight reel moment.

good to hear about ronny

i dont care if he Is french, i htink he'll have a breakout season backing up whoever backs up the 4 and 5

Tsphere

thanks for the update on Turiaf...i'm curious what his line was...does anyone know where i can see a box score of the game

I think Houston's problem is Van Gundy. I don't think he can coach Yao & T-Mac. We could be in trouble if VG gets canned part way through the season.

Good to hear about Turiaf. I think he will be a key contributor next season. Having Turiaf and Mihm (as it looks today) might give us the best reserve bigs in the NBA.

LakerTom,
"exhelodrvr:

No problem, bro. We all need a dash of reality every so often and I appreciate your point of view. Your posts always make sense. Are you really an ex-helocopter pilot? I would think you would have to be an optimist to try and drive one of those contraptions."

Yes, I'm a retired Navy helo pilot. And you do have to be an optimist to fly one, but if the lifting capacity at a particular time is 5,000 pounds, you don't expect to be able to lift 8,000 pounds!!

Ken:

Yeah, I do think you are really "out there" sometimes but I love it and really respect you for having the balls to say what you feel and let the hits fly. I also respect that you stick to your guns and fight back like a good sport. You help make the blog fun by how you handle the hits.

I am sure that most of the bloggers feel that a lot of my posts are "way out there." But as you pointed out, nobody knows for sure what is going to happen so who's to say your take is any less valid than someone else's. As they say, truth is usually stranger than fiction.

As I joked with exhelodrvr, you and I are the "realists" on the blog, not the "optimists." After all, we are talking about the Lakers, not the Knicks or Bobcats. If we were fans of those teams, they might be right to say we were crazy. But we're Laker fans and, as you pointed out, we have a solid basis for believing our team will do great things. So why not enjoy it rather than avoid it? Right?

Tom

exhelodrvr:

Aha. Now we know the truth. You are really not a realist but a "careful" optimist. I will try and be more careful with my "lifting capacity" in my future posts.

I guess I am the opposite of a helo pilot when it comes to the Lakers. I always seem to be looking up rather than looking down. Since you're now down here on the ground with the rest of us, shouldn't you also be looking up now rather than down?

Tom

I watched the Lakers in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and this decade. There is no question the Laker's and Celtic's of the 80's were the deepest, most team oriented squads of any era (only the 1972 Lakers could give them a run for the money, and for only that year).

It is interesting to look at the makeup of teams that have been successful over several years. Most have two great players, one pretty good player and the rest are complimentary role players - happy to play in the NBA. Chicage really had only 2 great players and all the rest were roll players.

One thing with teams with lots of role players - it takes a while for them to find their form, then they stay in form for a few years.

How does all this fit with today? Well, the Lakers are really a team with 2 possibly great players and the remainder are role players. Last year was a time of learning. A few role players were added this year, but no superstars. This year could be quite interesting if all the role players start to mesh.

I look for us to start slower than most of you want (the first 20 games may be a little bit above .500). The key will be how the team does in late December and January.

It is going to be fun to watch!

Craig W.

GO LAKERS!!!!!

Wow, I never realized I could have include exclamation points as part of my blog name.

Regarding your questions about why the Lakers signed Radmanovic and Williams instead of other players who might be better defenders, I think that the Lakers signed the players that they believed would help the team most for the dollars that were available, regardless of whether the players were offensive or defensive-oriented.

I also think the Lakers did not see any specific player who could greatly help the team's defense, other than Evans whom they got, but saw in Vlade and Shammond two players who could greatly help the team's offense. When asked about Vlade's defense, Mitch responded that it goes both ways in that the other team would have to deal with Vlade on defense. When asked about Shammond's defense, Mitch did state that Shammond could "defend his position."

I do think if an outstanding back court defender -- a Bruce Bowen or Raja Bell -- was available, the Lakers would have gone in that direction. I think that was specifically why they traded for Evans. I just don't think they saw anybody else out there, including James and Banks, who was worth the money they were asking.

I also think the Lakers believe that their team defense will steadily get better as their players grow and evolve as a team, which I also believe will happen. There were times last year where we were able to keep Nash and Parker out of the lane and win the games so the capability to play good team defense is there.

Another key factor that I am hoping will happen is for Kobe not have to carry the entire team on his back offensively so that he can return to being the "shut-down" defender he used to be for short stretches or in specific situations when we really need it.

That's at least how I view the decisions to sign the players they did and not to sign other guys. Hope that partly answers your question. Thanks.

Tom

Lakertom (regarding your post from last night)---I've never seen anybody insult so many people in one post lol...it's cool though, I really do digress (that was a joke, I know you weren't insulting anyone).

Edwin Gueco---hey I didn't know I'm a bandwagon, lovin it lol...Defense really will be the key, so we're geniuses lol.

Go Lakers!!!---The market this offseason didn't exactly stack up defensively. Sure there were some gems, but most of those gems (offensively and defensively strong players) really were after more money than we can offer. Part of the reason we got Shammond is that we needed a veteran/like with experience yet isn't asking for a lot...since we only had 1 or so mil after the MLE. Aside from that we really had 2 needs, one defensively and one for consistent, dependable shooting (what they hope they'll get out of Vlad). That said, I think before this year's trade deadline, and off-season we'll be looking out for defensive personnel as well as asking our own players to be that.

Cook news: http://www.sj-r.com/sections/sports/stories/93227.asp

dan and sonny:

Let's create our own little Niners blog inside of the Lakers blog. I am sure that AK and BK won't mind. I really do not like any of the Niner blogs. Maybe AK and BK should contact the S.F. Chronicle and offer to start a Niners Blog. We could do all the scutwork for them, watching the game, giving them the "insider" insights, etc. What do you think AK and BK. Extra income and exposure never hurts and there are only 16 games. Seriously, a Niner blog in your format would rule. After all, LA doesn't have an NFL team anymore.

Even though it was just an exhibition game, it was more than that for the Niners. Thank God that Alex came through big. After Jerry Rice and Steve Young both questioned whether he might be a bust, it was great to see him come out and have a super performance (16 of 21 for 137 yds and NO ints). The offensive line, Frank Gore, Antonio Davis, Bryan Gilmore, Eric Johnson, and Delaney Walker really gave him the support he just did not have last year. And Norv Turner's play calling and having Alex roll-out much of the time was superb.

I also liked how the defense played. Other than Mike Rumph, who missed several tackles and was beaten for a 41 yard touchdown pass, the defense looked greatly improved but will probably continue to be our achilles heel. I think our offense will really put up some numbers but Griese really chewed up our secondary and I really didn't see any pass rush. We played well against the run, though, but that probably plays into everybody else's hands as then they will pass, which is where we will still killed. Big defense draft coming up next year.

I have been a big fan of Mike Nolan and everything he has done since he was hired. Last season was as big a hell for me as the Lakers 2004/5 season. Of course, I am predicting that the Niner will rebound strongly this year behind Smith and Gore and will end up going from 2-14 to 9-7 and just missing a Wild Card playoff spot, which would be a great season considering last year.

NinerTom

"What I just don't understand, though, it why everybody else doesn't see things the way that they really are"

That's why we rely on you old wise one. Please, lead us not into temptation.

Edwin, Faith and JoninJapan,

Thanks for all the kind words. I'll do my best to continue to keep my fellow bloggers proud lol.

I have missing a couple days on the blog because I feel so behind in the conversation. One thing I did find funny is that I've basically got Zakee calling me negative and Edwin calling me positive and I've only made one post in this thread lol!

I think I'm a little somewhere in the middle. I think that the Lakers have a legit shot at 50 wins. I think the addition of Vlad Rad will help a great deal and if Sasha realizes that he's in LA to be a shooter that'd be even better.

Our defensive intensity needs to be where it was at the end of the season (excluding Games 5-7 against PHX). And I think the key to a 55-win season is Kwame Brown. If he gives us 15 and 10 we'll be a legitimate force to be reckoned with. ALL the talk about trading Mihm/Bynum and anyone else will die.

As of right now I'm penciling the Lakers in for 48-50 wins and hopeful for 55. I think those extra 5-7 wins are in Kwame's hands (literally and figuratively).

I don't know if I'm an optimist or a pessimist. I think I'm somewhere in between our blog's greatest optimist LakerTom and the blog's pessimist Andrew Z (I don't mean that disrespectfully Andrew Z, I've got great respect for you, you call it like you see and never sway).

AK

sorry I didn't POINT OUT what exactley I disagree with in the SONICS case. HERE: "Know Thy Enemy: Houston, SEATTLE, New Orleans, Utah" or "this bunch, including the Rockets, SONICS, Hornets, and Jazz, could make a little NOISE. But will they be better or worse than the Lakers?"(SORRY to RAYRAYTIONIZE your words)

Then again are you kidding me? FIRST I wish our enemy was SEATTLE. they're only their OWN enemy SECOND, SEATTLE can't make a NOISE with a 500WT SOUND BLASTER, not even "alittle NOISE". Atleast you can say the SACTOS or CLIPPS or even MINESSOTA. THIRD, "will they(SEATTLE as one of they) be better or worse than the Lakers? WORSE.

ISS JUST that you used 397 WORDS to say SEATTLE SUCKS and they're not even in the LAKERS LEAGUE. so WHY is their name there.

I know TKUKOC is 95. And I know he's got some INJURY issues. BUT the guy is VETERAN who makes CLUTCH shots. The LAKER roster is PRETTY FULL but this is what I'd do. put BYNUM in the D-LEAGUE, and add KUKOC to the BENCH. and to all those BYNUM lovers, I've said this a MILLION times but here tis again: the MORE you RUSH the GUY to play NBA games and let him get BLOCKED by MEN 5 inches SHORTER the more you DELAY his effectiveness as a PRO-PLAYER. for ANDREW its all about THESE THREE WORD: CONFIDENCE, CONFIDENCE, CONFIDENCE.

SoNnY BeLFaSt

iF mY WriTiNG HurTS YoUR EyES I'm SoRRy BRo. BuT I dON'T WrITe lIkE tHiS. I wirte like THIS. just DEAL with it, BELFAST. like everybody DEALs with you calling our team BROKEBACKERS, which by the way I laughed so much the FIRST time you PULLED that SHSH. Are you a NINERS fan? then YOUR OK. You just probabely "HAVEN'T BEEN HUGED ENOUGH" or some thing.

Weaveman,
I thought you post was interesting , even if it was WAY WAY WAY off topic haha. I was a HUGE Dominique fan growing up. And although Dominique was the "greater" player...I have to say Tmac (and I mean 100% Tmac, who I will be talking about in this article, not brokeback Tmac.) is the better and more talented player. People forget how good this guy was because Lebron and Wade burst on the scene while Tmac was always struggling with injuries. I remember when the big debate wasnt "Who's better, Kobe or Lebron?" but "Kobe or Tmac?" and I've always argued that Kobe was better. However, Ive also always argued that Tmac could be better. The fact is, he is more physically gifted than Kobe. He's taller, stronger, penetrates easier, and gets his shot off easier. And in a way its unfair to label Tmac as a bad defender when I really think it is tied into his back injury. I guess it could also be laziness , but who knows. But he was a great defender in Toronto and remember a couple years ago he completely shut down Dirk by himself. Of course, I prefer Kobe whose fire, determination, clutchness, and overall skill is unmatched.
But Tmac is just one of those rare extremely gifted athletes. In fact, Roger Clemens gives Tmac major props as a baseball player and thinks he's good enough to switch sports over to baseball.

Anyways, I thought your question was interesting cuz I thought of the exact same question a while ago. I really have no idea what his place in history will be or should be. Like someone said, a lot of it will depend on what he does from now on and if he can win a championship. It would be sad tho if he is never the same player again, as he is a rare talent, who suffered through many injuries as well as family and personal struggles.

BTW, I must add that I agree...Dominique IS one of the most underated players ever! =)

Lakertom,
Considering myself a "realist" who occasionally borderlines on the line of realism and pessimism. I appreciate your "optimism". At some points, its just better to not focus so much on the negatives and its always nice to hope for the best. Keep up the good work!

......and did someone say to watch out for the BLAZERS???? haha now THATS some serious serious optimism!!!

RayRay,

That was the introduction to the piece, where we set up what the concept is. Previewing EVERY team in the Western conference. And the bunch, as a WHOLE, could make some noise. For the sake of an intro's brevity, we state that opinion, then break everything down in more detail later down. Clearly, we don't think Seattle will do any damage. I think you're taking everything a little too literally.

AK

Craig W:
Although the Bulls of the 90's had two stars, they had more than a team of roll players. You may have forgotten Rodman who was a very skilled player.

Roger B:
Wilcox has shown that with the right system, he can be an effective double-double guy.

RayRay:
Portland now has some good young players. Too bad they still have two players that are idiots. Portland will likely duke it out with Seattle for the bottom of the Northwest Division. With Utah's stability and coaching, I think they will pass Denver for the NW's lone playoff spot.

LakerTom:
Are you running for political office or were you just a PR director/chearleader/car salesman in your past life? If you were paid by the word on this blog, you would already be a millionare. And that is no more of an exageration than some of your pie in the sky optimism. You communicate like an optimistic, just out of college, 20's-something, eyes-wide-open type of enthusiasm. I would much rather hear the realistic assessments of Andrew Z, exhelodrvr, Michael A, Ken and others. That beng said, I realize this is an open forum and everyone can contribute, so please temper your enthusiam with some realistic assessments of the Lakers. Actually, your earlier post to GO LAKERS was not half bad. But, I really dont see how the Lakers, as currently configured, can come close to winning 55 games. They are a slightly above average, middle of the pack playoff team. They will likely continue to have just as much trouble with PHXS, and very likely, a serious battle with LAC & SAC-just within the Division. As conservative as Mitch is, I dont see him making any more moves until he has a chance to assess the current team through training camp and (baring injuries) will probably reevaluate at the Feb. trading deadline, unless somehing drops into his lap. MK is in a tough position. If he obtains an additional player like Harrington (for Mihm and pieces), it will lock us in for several more years. Perhaps his weight- and-see approach is the best. He probably has better sources for player information than we do and certainly knows who to go after. He has reportedly been interested in quality players-Yao, Staudamyer, Bosh, James, etc. If either Artest or Garnett become available next year, his wait and see methodolgy may be justified. I just hope that this does not become an annual "wait to next year", type of effort. Kobe is entering his 11th year!