Contract Shtuff
August 8, 2006 | 1:02
pm
Thought y'all might find this article interesting for a few reasons.
1) Well, it's interesting.
2) It mentions Kobe (in a positive light) and Kwame (not so much) by name.
3) It makes you think about both the contracts of newest Lakers player Vlad Radmanovic and the non-contracts of players such as Antonio Daniels, Marcus Banks and even Caron Butler, all of whom would have liked to have been Lakers, but were deemed unworthy of the theoretical price, length of stay, or both. And given that it'll be a piece of time before the Lakers are well under the cap, it's a topic that will probably end up heavily discussed for a few seasons.
—AK
busy at work so i'll have to comment on most of the posts later...
but ken! what happened? youve made a lot of good points....and then this? ive argued that the lakers are better than the clippers...that maggette is not all that more valuable than our 3's....that Brand isnt that much better than Lamar and that Lamar may overtake him this year....that Kwame is underated still.
but to say Bynum is better than Kaman...NOW? As much as I favor the Lakers' players...I think Kaman would absolutely dominate Bynum at this point....one on one or 5 on 5. Kaman while not yet a complete product, has a nice combination of post moves and nice touch around the basket. Bynum while huge, has almost no touch or no go-to moves at this point. Kaman has proven he can play in the league....Bynum still hasnt proven he can excel even in summerleague!
Come on Kaman is pretty good. And considering there arent that many good Cs, he is one of the better ones. I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with 10 Cs you'd rather have than Kaman.
and to start Bynum over Kwame and Mihm??? again, that is FELONIOUS! like AK said, if you are right, then Phil, Tex, his staff, Kupchak, and Rambis should all retire. Either they are some of the dumbest people in America or it is all a big conspiracy against Kobe to prevent him from winning a championship? Maybe Shaq is the mastermind behind benching Bynum?
...ok.....back to work.
Posted by: wiZo | August 10, 2006 at 03:56 PM
Ken
I hope this Bynum vs. Kaman is a joke. If you are serious its easy to see your strictly a Lakerfan and not a NBA fan or just basketball. IF that is the case all I can say is that anything you say is bias. There is no way any team would pick Bynum starting over Kaman, well unless it was a bias Laker fan. The kid played in the SPL for a reason. The kid will be good but not now and there is no way that Bynum is better than Kaman right now.
"Bynum, on the other hand has the makings of a star. I learned that from Jerry West. :)"
Thats for the future and not now. Kaman is not a superstar but neither is Bynum (atm). Just like Kaman cant lead a team well neither can Bynum right now. Its not about being a Clipper fan its about knowing the game and the players. Dont kid yourself Bynum will be a good C but that wont come for a while. On the other hand Kaman is already a decent solid C. Thats why Kaman is better than Bymum right now.
Posted by: Shady | August 10, 2006 at 03:57 PM
Andrew Z,
Its not just me. The Lakers as an organization really believes in this kid. Thats why they drafted him #10 at the tender age of 17 and why they are paying him millions of dollars. If they thought he would be about as good as a guy like Kaman, then it would be a waste of time to have him around, but they don't. I just believe that the kid has what it takes. I've seen it in a lot of players, and Bynum will be a star. I don't really care about anybody on the Clippers, but I know Kaman is not that good, he is a solid player. By the way, you believe that Livingston will be a star and he hasn't shown much yet either.
Posted by: Ken | August 10, 2006 at 04:04 PM
exhelodrvr:
I understand your point. I think the fact that the Laker players played confidently down the stretch at the end of the season and in the first four playoff games against the Suns was due partly to having Kobe on the team.
The problem is that this was not enough and after the losing game 5 their youth and inexperience just caught up with them and they cracked under the pressure, especially Smush, despite having Kobe.
I would agree with you that how important that is does depend on the other players and that sometimes having the best player can work against you. In most cases, however, having the best player "usually" gives the other players confidence and helps them play better, which is what I believe the case was with the Lakers. That doesn't mean, however, that the players can still lose that confidence and crack as several Laker players did.
I think you would agree that confidence is often the big difference between winning and losing, especially when both teams are reasonable equal in talent. And going into battle with Kobe Bryant or Joe Montana or Reggie Jackson usually gives a team an edge, which can be the difference other things being equal.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 04:06 PM
Shady,
you said it yourself, neither one is a star right now so what's the difference. Kaman has been around awhile and Bynum is 18 and a half. That is what I mean. Yes Kaman has more experience but he is not better in my opinion. I am projecting that Bynum will be a star player. I you don't that is your choice, but if someone thinks you can drop Kaman into the Lakers line-up and that makes them better, thats just wrong.
I'll be back in a couple hours. ;)
Posted by: Ken | August 10, 2006 at 04:09 PM
who cares whos better!! Lakers are going to rock this year... GO LAKERS!!!
Posted by: keifo | August 10, 2006 at 04:11 PM
Ken-
I can't read any more from you. All your arguements are wrong. Kamen is better right now than any big man the Lakers have. Any of them. Everybody is presupposing that Bynum is going to be a superstar. Why? He hasn't done anything yet, hasn't had the minutes to show us anything yet and, frankly, I don't see the fire in him to make me think that he is going to become a superstar. I hope I'm wrong, but only time will tell.
Zakee-
I don't know what you've got against Brand, but you're obviously biased against him. He's not a Shaq? He's not a Duncan? Of course he's not. But I'd take him over Shaq right now. He's also better than any PF the Lakers have. Take a look at his numbers. Numbers don't lie. With Brand and Kaman instead Kwame and LO the Lakers would have advanced past Phoenix. Come on guys! I'm a Lakers fan too but that doesn't mean you have to be blind. WTF
Posted by: what the...? | August 10, 2006 at 04:27 PM
Ken,
I respect your opinion that Bynum will be a star. That remains to be seen. I was only commenting on the fact that you said he would dominate Kaman "right now", which is not true.
As for Livingston, he contributed greatly in two playoff series this past season and was a big part of the most successful Clipper season in history. I think that's pretty damn good for a kid two years removed from high school, especially playing the point. Only time will tell though, I just believe he has what it takes to be a special player.
Posted by: Andrew Z | August 10, 2006 at 04:29 PM
Zakee,
I usually agree with the stuff you say, but to say Brand isn't that good, and can't lead a team to a championship is wrong. Now, he's proven that he can't do it by himself, but you have to remember he hasn't had the supporting cast Shaq, and Duncan have had. Did you forget that he has played for the post Jordan Bulls, and then got traded to the Clips before they decided to pay anybody? I think if you put him with a good perimeter player, and decent center he could lead his team to a ring. Just imagine how good the Clips would be now if Kobe had gone there as a free agent. Him, and Brand would have made an increbible inside-outside combo. Add Kaman to the mix and they definitely would be competing for rings.
PS: And no Corey Maggette is not the good perimeter player he needs. Maybe if Maggette wasn't always hurt, and contributed on the defensive end.
Posted by: Weave-Man | August 10, 2006 at 04:29 PM
LakerTom,
i think having the best player helps when the other guys on the team on of a certain quality. In games 6 and 7 of the Suns series I think it became clear that Kobe's supporting cast was not yet up to snuff.
You know what's kind of interesting, no one ever talks about how sick Kobe's Game 6 was. Seriously, they win that game and it's one of the best playoff performances in recent history.
Posted by: Andrew Z | August 10, 2006 at 04:31 PM
Ken,
"but if someone thinks you can drop Kaman into the Lakers line-up and that makes them better, thats just wrong."
You are letting your dreams for the future and the fact that you are a Laker fan interfere with your perception of reality.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | August 10, 2006 at 04:41 PM
LakerTom,
It gives them an edge IF the rest of the players still do their part. And that has not happened with this Lakers team yet.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | August 10, 2006 at 04:42 PM
To use the word "better" when comparing Odom and Brand says more about what "better" means than either of the two players. Lamar has more tools to work with than Brand has and is always potentially more of a threat than Brand is. Brand has much more focus than Odom so day in and day out he out-perfoms Odom, and so far Brand has been much more valuable.
Odom is both the reason you can't ever bet against the Lakers as well as the reason why you can't ever bet on them. He can beat anybody and lose to anybody and only God seems to know when he will do either one. Brand is the reason you can always bet on the Clippers to play up to a certain high standard -- nothing less...but also nothing more.
Out of all that, the word "better" doesn't seem to be a descriptive enough word to compare the two players, both of whom are a treat to watch.
Posted by: Guity | August 10, 2006 at 04:52 PM
AK, the attacks are making you unhinged. We wouldn't give up Bynum for Artest last year, but now you're willing to trade him for Kaman? Since Kaman's your MVP, maybe we should offer Kobe for him... I'm sure the Clips would go along with that.
Posted by: McGarnagle | August 10, 2006 at 05:10 PM
Andrew Z (and AK):
Thanks for your post. I guess we just live on different worlds and will have to just agree to disagree.
I would not trade Lamar for Brand despite how much I like Brand. I wouldn’t even include him in a package for KG at this point. I also disagree that with AK’s statement that after 8 years you pretty much know what you’re going to get. I think Lamar’s just begun to understand how good he can be and he has the potential to become a far better player than he is right now, whereas Brand has overachieved to get where he is and will not get any better. He is the prototype Duke player.
I also don’t really believe that anybody other than AK really believe that Brand is an MVP-quality player. This was just the Clippers first taste of success and Elton was their media poster boy and another guy whose name it was popular to throw into the ring, just like Chauncey. Next year it will some new "trendy" pick. I expect that the Clippers will finish below the Lakers next year and Brand’s name will not even come up in discussions about who is the MVP.
Frankly, I’ve never understood this “second” favorite team phenomenon that has obviously infected AK whenever we talk about the Clippers. I guess it’s because he personally knows the guys since they play at Staples and has developed a liking for team as a result. It seems to me that he is always careful to be so professionally objective about the Lakers but unleashes his “homer” instincts regarding the Clippers. To me, the Clippers are just another team in the Lakers way.
I also think that Farmar is a far better point guard prospect than Livingston, who after 2 years in the league is still nothing more than a prospect and has actually been a disappointment considering he was the #4 pick in the 2004 draft. Devin Harris (#5). Luol Deng (#6), and Andre Iguodala (#9) all have emerged as better guards than Livingston at this point. I predict that Farmar will quickly show that he will become a far better point guard, even though he was a #26 pick.
In fact, in a head to head comparison on NBA.com, Livingston doesn’t even come close to comparing with Smush Parker. In fact, Livingston’s scoring average and assists actually dropped last year to 5.8 ppg and 4.5 apg from 7.4 ppg and 5.0 apg in his very inauspicious rookie year. He is a very poor shooter from the field (42.7% tyr & 41.4% lyr) and zero threat from beyond the arc (12.5% tyr & 0% lyr). His ball handling is good but his defense is average and his BB IQ is questionable.
Finally, I would not trade Kwame for Kaman either. You totally underestimate how important Kwame’s 1-on1 post defense is and how much potential he has. The reason that I included Mihm and Bynum in the trade was to bring your attention to the fact that the Lakers are stonger at the center position than the Clippers because they have two guys that can play now and a third who has great potential down the road and who the Lakers would not surely not trade for Kaman considering they wouldn't trade him for Artest or Harringtom, who are both superior players to Kaman.
In my opinion, you and AK have overevalued the Clippers players and undervalued the Laker players by not recognizing the upside potential of the Lakers players, which is self-serving since you've no problem bringing up potential when you try to convince us that Livingston is a stud rather than a "dud." It will be fun to see what your opinions are after the coming season is over and the Lakers finish above the Clippers.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 05:17 PM
Keifo,
I agree with you 100%. Lakers are definitely gonna rock this year. Think about it, last year we weren't supposed to even make the playoffs. Everyone on TV (except for greg anthony...god bless him lol)and the papers were writting us off as nothing but a mediocre .500 squad with zero chance of making any kinda noise. However, not only did we make the playoffs, but we were so close to advancing to the 2nd round had it not been for our inexperience. Now, with a full season under everyone's belt learning the triangle and building team chemistry, plus the addition of key players this offeason, we should be able to make some SERIOUS noise. I would even go as far as to say we can probably challange any team for the title this season and if not, then we'll most definitely be strong contenders the following season. I have no doubt in my mind about this.
I feel once our players get more playing time in the triangle and playing with each other, as well as Bynum and farmar becoming starters by then (these 2 kids are the missing pieces we need right now as well as the future of our franchise) we will be really tough to beat.
GO LA!
Posted by: blaze1bx | August 10, 2006 at 05:22 PM
AK:
Yup, I am if nothing else persistent. Thanks for standing up and answering my questions like a man. You know how much I do respect your opinion even if I question it and often disagree with it.
I would be interested in your response to the post that I just made replying to Andrew Z (and AK). Then I will let the Lakers vs. Clippers issue rest in peace. Thanks.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 05:23 PM
CYBER FIGHT.... ROUND 1
GO!!!
Posted by: The Lamar Show | August 10, 2006 at 05:25 PM
Ken:
Duck for cover, bro. The shots are coming.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 05:26 PM
Actually I was responding to the present time. You said:
"Come on!! If you were to match Kaman against Bynum right now, Bynum would dominate that guy"
Both arent stars but that doesnt mean one cant be better than the other. All I was saying is that Kaman is better RIGHT NOW and that eventually Bynum WILL BE better than Kaman. Im not saying Bynum wont be a star im just saying that at the moment Kaman is ahead and more polished.
" if someone thinks you can drop Kaman into the Lakers line-up and that makes them better, thats just wrong."
I dont remember anybody or myself saying that. I think if it was a choice between Bynum and Kaman I would go with Kaman RIGHT NOW. Now if you ask me this in 5yrs I would probably go with Bynum (dependign on progress). You also cant say that if you put Bynum in the starting lineup he will make them better. There are only 2 things I remember about Bynum from watching him. The first was a great block against Parker as Parker slashed into the the lane and the 2nd is the one against Shaq which just blew me out of my chair. I actually stood up when I saw that. After that it has been nothign impressive just a couple of rebounds here and there and some layups but nothing remarkable. Bynum cant dominate right now but I hope he does. The whole conversation was about the present and you said yourself that you think that Bynum would dominate Kaman. Thats your opinion but even though I am a Lakerfan and a Bynum fan I still have to disagree with you. Overally Kaman is the better player right now. Defense and Offense both go to Kaman. I really dont see anything that Bynum can beat him at other than being younger and having more upside than Kaman. Remember this is about the present and the future will probably be completely different.
Posted by: Shady | August 10, 2006 at 05:39 PM
I am the last thing to a clipper fan, but I hate to say this, I would trade LO for Brand in a heartbeat. Brand has averaged 20/10 for all 7 years in the nba except when he had two "down" years when he averaged 18/10 and 19/10. Lamar's best years hasn't even gotten close to Brand's worst years. Putting Kobe and Brand together would spell instant championship for years. Oh yeah, Brand has been averaging 2 blocks per game in his career, over doubling odom's average. Versatility? Brand averaged more points(almoast then more per game), rebounds, blocks and STEALS than Odom.
I think odom is a great player, but Brand is just too good to pass up. Whoever wouldn't make this trade, is an idiot, and needs to take off their Lakers sunglasses, and look at the truth.
I'm not even going to talk about Bynum beating Kaman RIGHT NOW in a game of one-on-one.
Posted by: greek dude | August 10, 2006 at 05:39 PM
If the Lakers and Clippers played right now, I think that the Lakers would win by a slight margain
Let's look at the matchups:
PG:Smush v Livingston edge:clippers
SG:Kobe v Mobely enormous edge:Lakers
SF:Vlad v Magette miniscule edge:clippers
PF:Lamar v Brand edge:clippers
C:Kwame v Kaman slight edge:clippers
Coaches:PhilvDunleavy big edge:Lakers
Now why do I have the Lakers winning the game?
1. Except for LO v Brand, clipper edges are small + we win coaches
2.We have a dude named Kobe.
Although we lose the number of matchups, we have the best player in the game and one of the best coaches
Posted by: greek dude | August 10, 2006 at 05:50 PM
im a die hard laker fan.
i do not think bynum is better than kaman.
bynum will not be better than kaman for atleast another 2 years.
kaman is a battle tested starting center who had a great year last year. he has gotten better every year since he came in to the league. he averaged 11 and 9 last season.
why is this even being talked about on the blog. its ridiculous. imagine putting either one of those guys on a bad team like atlanta making then the center pieces for the team with all the minutes in the world. would there even be a question who would be the better player statistically? i got love for SOCKS but some of you people here are giving this kid waaaaay too much credit for an inconsistent showing at the summer league.
Posted by: sixonezero | August 10, 2006 at 06:19 PM
First of all, I want to thank you all for the incredible volume and quality of posts for the last couple of days. I really admire and respect the quality of analysis that I've come across in this blog from the likes of AK, Mike T., Faith, LakerTom, Wizo, JJ, Leo, WeaveMan and so many others. It's great to have such an amazing collection of posts.
I wanted to share something with you all about the current Laker roster and hopefully it's a legitimate concern. (Also, I apologize for the length ahead of time)
I think that...
THE LAKERS REALLY NEED AN "ENFORCER"
So, who is this "enforcer"?
The best way to go about the job description of an enforcer is to use the examples of former NBA enforcers, and my first one would be:
Dennis Rodman.
Those two words on a basketball court usually meant serious hustle, tenacious D, cleaning up the boards, getting under your skin and pretty much doing everything it takes (usually on defense) to stop the opponent.
And if Rodman was guarding you, it pretty much meant your as*.
Dennis Rodman was an enforcer who'd be a first time selection if the NBA ever came up with an Enforcer's Hall of Fame. If I had any say, I would put Rodman in the regular Hall of Fame.
But inspite of all his shenanigans, the man has five NBA rings. And he was usually the most dominant defender and "enforcer" in all those teams.
Rodman was not only a ferocious rebounder but he was also a lock-down defender at any position. He would one day body up the collossal Shaq and the next day he would guard a nimble footed forward like Shawn Kemp (if you forgot, Kemp was All-NBAer in 1996). But that's not where it ends with Rodman. It's the other intangibles that he brings together with his defense and rebounding that makes him special...that makes him an enforcer.
Dennis Rodman would get inside your head.
What does that mean? It means that he will put the element of fear in the opponent. He will body you up. He'll bang under the boards, he'll bang in midcourt and there are times when he'll bang you even during a timeout. He will make sure that when you get on that court (and sometimes even before that) all you will be thinking is "What's Rodman gonna do if I go for a layup?". And usually the answer is, "Rodman will either block your shot or put a hard foul on your as* with zero regard for your health." Now, basketball is a game of reflexes. If you keep hearing a voice in your head saying that you better think twice before you do something on the court, that will definately take you out of your flow. And that's what Dennis Rodman did.
Bill Laimbeer, a former teammate of Rodman, was another enforcer who had scant respect for the opponent and didn't even try to hide it. But once again, he helped the Detroit Pistons to two championships (1989 and 1990) with his smashmouth style of play.
Not all NBA players who now play the enforcer role are in the same mold as Rodman or Laimbeer.
But there's still a few who can make Rodman proud from time to time. Ron Artest is one of the them. He is a fearless, bull of a defender who will do anything to stop you from scoring. And if you have any concern about your health, it'd be wise not to get on Artest's bad graces.
And just like Rodman, Ron Ron's reputation precedes him and most players who are being guarded by Artest will definately have multiple thoughts going through their minds that often distracts them from their natural game.
Another current example will be Reggie Evans, a tenacious rebounder and defender. This guy will do anything, and I mean anything, to hold his opponent down. Case in point, last season's playoff game Evans grabbed the testicles of Clippers center Chris Kaman.
Just grabbed it.
No questions asked. And it just might make Chris Kaman (and all other NBA players for that matter) to think at least a little bit when they're going up against Reggie Evans.
You might say, geez all these guys are like thugs. And my answer is, that's exactly right.
If you check carefully, most successful NBA teams have at least one "enforcer" in the team. Not all these enforcers are as blatant about their crimes (I call it craft) like Rodman, Laimbeer or Artest. But there are players who are definately playing the enforcer role in so many of these NBA champions.
Just look at the Spurs. A squeaky clean team image. But ask any NBA wing player about the Spurs' Bruce Bowen and they'll tell you how Bowen will do anything, clean or dirty, to thwart someone to them away from their game.
Same goes for the Heat who have guys like James Posey and Alonzo Mourning playing the enforcer role. No matter how much star power D-Wade and Shaq brought in, they could not have done it without Zo and J. Posey's defense.
Phil Jackson's first Laker three-peat wouldn't be possible without the services of Rick Fox, another deadly, but glamorous (Hollywood actor, married to Vanessa Williams) enforcer.
The current Pistons had Ben Wallace (he's with the Bulls now) and Rasheed Wallace.
Bottom line, the enforcer is one of the most important and necessary roles for any successful NBA team.
The current Lakers team can certainly use the services of an enforcer or two. There is a possiblility that guys like Kwame Brown and Ronny Turiaf may evolve into that role but that remains to be seen. But in the meantime the Lakers really need a bruiser, a tough guy, a bad cop...whatever you call it.
Kobe is the only current player who falls in the "tough-as-nails" category and that simply isn't enough. Kobe needs someone to protect his back, someone to stand up for him and possibly hand out a few "signals" to the opponent in some form or another...whether it's through a hard foul, a cold stare or with some choice words or simply with an attitude...whatever it takes.
That's what Raja Bell did for the Suns last season in the playoffs. That's what Alozo Mourning did for the Heat during the finals. And that's what the enforcers do in any successful NBA team.
And it's about time that the Lakers either get someone in that mold or have someone in the roster step up to be the designated tough guy who takes care of the dirty work, or in other words the enforcer.
I apologize once again for the long post. But I hope the Lakers somehow increase their on-court toughness and notch or two.
Great posts all of you. Keep it coming.
~ RG Gaznabi
Posted by: R.G. Gaznabi | August 10, 2006 at 06:48 PM
Laker Tom,
First of all, I'm not caught up in "Clipper Fever" or however you wanna put it. I'm talking about a team that had a good season and made it to the second round of the playoffs. And they rarely did it playing at full strength. Giving them some respect is hardly inappropriate.
As far as nobody but me believing Brand is an MVP level player, he came in 7th for the actual MVP voting, so I'm clearly not delusional. Somebody out there agrees with me. And the idea that Brand can't improve is ludicrious, considering he just added a 12-15 jump shot to his game this season that's more or less automatic. If anything, he's been improving more than LO while playing at a higher level. I love LO, but it's true.
I also haven't been pimping Livingston much throughout this discussion, other than saying he could beat out any PG on the Lakers roster. Considering it's made up entirely of backup caliber players, that's not saying much. But in truth, he's been held back more by injury than lack of performance and I do think he has a lot of potential. But no, I don't consider him a superstar at the moment. But neither is Farmar. At the moment.
I do wonder how much you've seen Livingston play, though, because he's actually a very good defender. Dunleavy sat Cassell for Livingston in the playoffs during key streches quite a bit because of his superior D. And other than scoring, how did his stats not match up to Smush's? He equaled his rebounds and out-assisted him (same amount of TO's when handling the ball a lot more) while playing 9 less mpg. His shooting percentage was also only about 2% lower than Smush's. That's hardly night and day.
Which brings me into something else. With everyone you bring up as better than the Clips counterpart (LO, Kwame, Bynum, Farmar), it's all about how good they COULD be. I've been talking about how good the guys on the Clips actually are the moment. There's a large difference. And I don't think thinking along those lines underestimates Laker players. It's simply saying, I won't give an automatic benefit of the doubt. For example, I feel confident LO will find that consistency next season. But I haven't just given it to him yet. He needs to do it first.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | August 10, 2006 at 06:48 PM
McGarnagle,
Saying that I would trade a young, potential heavy but totally unproven 7 footer (Bynum) for a young, proven and improving seven footer (Kaman) equals me saying I'd trade Kaman for Kobe? Might you be exaggerating a touch?
Also, the reason I wouldn't have traded Bynum for Artest is because Artest is insane and unreliable. Were he not, his talent makes it a completely different story. But the comparison is apples and oranges.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | August 10, 2006 at 06:59 PM
Laker Tom,
Did I read corrrectly that you wouldn't package L.O. for KG? If so, could you tell me exactly what you are thinking right now?
dan
Posted by: dan the man aka smushcalade | August 10, 2006 at 07:00 PM
Andrew Z,
You are the man. That interview is for real. Is it OK to wish another GM F's up so we can land KG? Is that bad Karma or something?
Can't help it. I'm going to put that in the next prayer box at church! I just hope I don't get striken down right on the spot.
Sean714 and Zakee, I'm just glad someone else gets my little korny jokes. :0
--Fearless
Posted by: Fearless | August 10, 2006 at 07:02 PM
Ken,
Salient point, "ahead or better". I think we sometimes confuse the two on this blog. But, when you are playing with Dr. Buss' money, you better be sure, shouldn't you?
--Fearless
Posted by: Fearless | August 10, 2006 at 07:04 PM
Okay I'm back, :)
This is all I'm saying and I know its controversial, but I think Bynum is better than Kaman, I'm not really trying to convince anyone because there is no way to prove it until he has a chance. Kaman has proven more at this point and his stats are better, but there is a reason he went to Eastern Michigan or wherever and Bynum had his choice between UConn. and the NBA. I think time will tell that I'm right if people don't agree, it doesn't matter to me, I can take the heat. :)But I'm a Laker fan not a psuedo Laker fan or Laker/clipper hybrid. I don't know why so many of you are pumping up the clippers, I just don't get it.
Ken
Posted by: Ken | August 10, 2006 at 07:17 PM
BLAH,BLAH,BLAH... what if... whos better than... I would trade Blah... it's getting a little old now. Hey, i got an idea... let's talk about the team we have. Now there's a concept!
Posted by: keifo | August 10, 2006 at 07:18 PM
Wow, Ken, after reading all these posts, the only question I have is, what color is your sky? It's usually blue on our world. I'm glad you're not making decisions for us, I'm going to sleep feeling much better about the world.
I hope the Lakers do better than the Clippers this year, but I'm not expecting it.
I haven't seen enough of Farmer to know how could he could potentially be. I'm hoping he is going to be a better than good NBA player. I have seen enough of Livingston to know he will be better than good, if he can avoid getting hurt. He understands the game, he handles the ball well, his height will make him a real problem for other point guards... and he is only starting his third year out of high school. Point guard is a tough position to learn, Kidd and Nash weren't spectacular after two years in the league and they played college ball. I think they've turned out all right.
Posted by: Michael A | August 10, 2006 at 07:28 PM
AK:
I don't mean to beat a dead horse to death but you keep making comparisons of Clippers and Lakers that drive me crazy and "make" me have to post. Is that part of your "blog" strategy? It must be since you've definitely awakened the blog up by doing it.
OK, here we go again. I just don't see why you are so high on Chris Kaman versus Chris Mihm or Kwame Brown. Kaman is an average NBA center whose last year stats (11.9 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.38 bpg) are basically the same as Chris Mihm's (10.2 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, and 1.24 bpg) when adjusted for his 32.8 mpg vs. Mihm's 26.1 mpg. With the same minutes per game, Chris' stats would be 12.8 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1.25 apg, 1.55 bpg, which are actually better than Kaman's in points, assists, and blocks per game. Kaman would only come out better with respect to rebounds per game.
Yet, you come right out and say that Kaman is a bonafide NBA starter whereas you label Chris Mihm is a backup at best. That is really being unfair to Mihm. I actually think Chris' offensive game is more polished and his physical abilities and hops better than Kaman's. What is your rationale for making such a contradictory opinion of these two players when their stats clearly show that their productivity is just as similar as their 7.0 height and 265 lbs weight?
In my opinion, this is another case where I feel you are overevaluing a Clipper player and undervaluing a Laker player. I don't see Chris Kayman bringing anything to the table that Chris Mihm didn't bring to the Lakers before he got injured or that Kwame Brown will bring to the table this year as the Lakers center.
A better evaluation of Kaman's effectiveness might be to compare his stats with some combination of Chris and Kwame's stats to see whether the Clippers or the Lakers got better production out of the center position last season. I think that such an evaluation would show that the Lakers actually got more our of their center position than the Clippers did.
I don't have the numbers at hand that represent Kwame's production from the time he took over the center position but I am sure that they are at least comparable if not better than Kaman's. If you have those stats around, I would appreciate your letting us know what they are.
So please tell me on what are you basing your opinions of these three players since it is obviously not their statistical production. Thanks.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 07:30 PM
Why is anybody surprised that the Clips are more talented than the Lake Show right now? As a Laker fan, I can still appeal to simple logic and reality. Simply put, the Clips have had more chances to get talent via draft. After all, they sucked for whole decades. In just the last few years, they got Shaun Livingston, Chris Kaman, Corey Maggette, and Elton Brand (essentially, since they basically just traded Tyson Chandler straight up for him. stupid Bulls) all via picks from the lotto. The real problem in the past has been their incapacity to pay to keep talent, but seems like they've finally learned. Relatively, its not too far from how the Show Time Lakers rose to prominence with a bunch of high picks via trade (see James Worthy). Meanwhile, the lakers have drafted at the 20's for quite some time and we all know how random those kind of picks are (Brian Cook potential Vs. Jordan Farmar).
Posted by: anonymous | August 10, 2006 at 07:33 PM
Fearless,
Not to put Kwame and Mihm down, because they are with us now, but If I were in charge, I would think about putting Bynum in the the starting line-up along with more minutes instead of Kwame. In the long-run the team would be better off. Kwame is not that much better right now, and we could see what Bynum is made of. Its taking a big chance but the payoff could be worthwhile.
Posted by: Ken | August 10, 2006 at 07:40 PM
Ken,
You migth recheck the pulse of the Laker organization about BYnum now. The heaviest weight behind him these days is Jim Buss. Just the law of averages suggest there's way less than a 50% chance of him becoming anything near great. Given what I saw this summer, I'd bet the under.
Great is rare? I know the consenus of the blog would be to keep him under wraps until Kobe's legs fall off but I think winning time is NOW. It's fun to project a championship in the offseason with our current personel, but meanwhile, by the time we find out Andrew is less than we'd hoped, it will be too late.
Having said that, if we keep him in spite of trade options, then GO SOCKS, I'm with him win or tie.
Posted by: Vman | August 10, 2006 at 07:41 PM
dan:
I just think that Lamar is going to blossom into a true star this year, make the All-Star team, and maybe earn the MIP. I think his all-around game is one the best in the league and that the matchup problems he can create if he plays intelligently give the Lakers a great advantage. I also think that he has learned how to play with Kobe, doesn't threaten the team's chemistry despite being a star, and is a really rare player.
Now, having said that I would not trade Lamar for KG, I sort of assumed that it would not be a straight up deal since KG earns $22M and Lamar earns $13, which means that we would have to give other players worth $9M, meaning like Kwame or Mihm, Bynum, and Vlade. Basically, I obviously like the team the Lakers have put together and I would not like to see that team traded to get a superstar player who may or may not work well with Kobe. I am also concerned about KG's physical talents and how much he will have left. Like Kobe, he has played a lot of games and is 2 years older.
Bottom line, I would really have to see what happens to this year's team, how far we go, and how Lamar plays. I think we should definitely keep our eye on what is happening in Minnesota because this news is the first indication that KG was even thinking he might exercise his player option to become a free agent after next year. For sure, the Timberwolves will be forced to trade him if it looks as if he is not going to stay as they could not afford to lose him for nothing. KG is such a great player that you would have to look at making a deal and it would definitely have to include Odom, but I still don't think I would do it if Lamar and the team are playing as well as I think they will be. If not, then all bets are off.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 07:47 PM
AK;
Thanks for your response. I will move on with the exception of my already submitted post about Kaman, who I definitely feel you overvalued.
I also don't think Livingston will be more than an average no-shot point guard whereas I think Farmar will become a great all-around point guard so we will just have to wait and see who will be right. Thanks again for your response.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 07:52 PM
RG:
Excellent post. I agree that the team does need an "enforcer" but I don't know where it is going to come from with the guys we have now. Kwame and Ronny are just "too" nice a guys. It was what Artest would have brought to the team. I have to confess that while I would not have traded Lamar for him, I did have second thoughts about Bynum for him when the summer league reports on Andrew disappointed me a little.
The only possible prospect to play that role that is available is Bonzi Wells, whom I have always backed as a target the Lakers should be going after as a free agent. Bonzi is a tough-as-nails player who would bruise other guards in the post and definitely get your back in a fight. I read today in HoopsHype rumors that the Nuggets were thinking they could sign him for one year for maybe $3M. Our problem, of course, is that we are over the cap and could not get him without some form of sign and trade with the Queens, who you know are not going to do us any favors.
At any rate, I think Bonzi would be the right guy to be our "enforcer" even though I think he has matured since his rebel days on the JailBlazers and has actually taken his game to a new level as shown in his performance in the playoffs against the Spurs. You should go back and read my Bonzi/Speedy bandwagon posts. Unfortunately, I don't see how we could get him at this point.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 08:05 PM
I vote for Danny Fortson as "ENFORCER". Won't happen until his contract is up (next year, I think). Right now, Kobe is his own enforcer, which is ridiculous.
It's also ridiculous that Roger Bell was allowed to finish Game 7. Given that we were behind by 30 for almost the entire 4th quarter, to me, it was chicken-hunting season. Bynum could have really endeared himself to Lakers fans by clotheslining Bell. What could they do, suspend him for Opening Night?
Posted by: Jman449 | August 10, 2006 at 08:05 PM
AK:
337 posts on this thread already. There is no doubt now why you ignite these Lakers vs. Clippers debates. The evidence might even call your journalistic ethics and objectivity into question (j/k). No wonder the Lakers Blog is the best in the world.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | August 10, 2006 at 08:09 PM
Laker Tom,
Thats cool and all, but hypothetically a team with Kobe and Odom isn't as dangerous as a team with Kobe and KG. Thats just my opinion.
dan
Posted by: dan the man aka smushcalade | August 10, 2006 at 08:16 PM
JJ & Jayjay and other interested bloggers:
While the Lakers Blog is concerned in comparing the two LA teams, let the other Laker fans write to the General Manager Mitch Kupchalk and present your ideas how to get AL HARRINGTON and/or CHRIS WILCOX to the Lakers. We need one or these two guys to put the Lakers competitive in top 4 level. Chris Wilcox has not re-signed the Sonics offer yet, the offer on the table is $3.8M one year only. Below you will find the address of the Lakers Front Office:
Mr. Mitch Kupchalk
LAKERS, General Manager
LOS ANGELES LAKERS
555 N. Nash Street
El Segundo, CA 90245
Tel. 310 426-6000
The rumor that the Lakers are no longer in the running is not TRUE, in fact the wheelin' and dealin' has just started with Arn Tellem. Los Angeles is the second biggest city, one of the sports center capital of the world, don't ever underestimate the power of LA. Should you wish to send a message directly to Al Harrington, & tell him why he should join the Purple & Gold go to his website below and fill up the Q/A on the message box.
http://www.ultimatepros.com/harrington/qa.aspx
PS. Let's make this blog productive by going to the people who will decide, not on the people who are engaged in bitter "analysis-paralysis" with AK. Oops, excuse me, jk only!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | August 10, 2006 at 08:25 PM
Let's not forget that there're three great teams in the West: Spurs, Suns, Mavs
We will definitely need to pass through one of these three teams to reach the West Finals
Posted by: KB8TH WONDER | August 10, 2006 at 08:34 PM
Personally I think we should go back to AK's original idea of having Sasha as our "foreign" enforcer...though that was more for referees.
I mean Sasha definitely has the size, being 6'7 (I think he's 6'7) and the peskiness, and he's foreign...he could be all like insulting their mothers and whatever...but smiling.
I mean we can't have Kobe have any more limit technicals. Though again, that's more for technicals (but it could apply with fouls as well).
P.S. " This guy will do anything, and I mean anything, to hold his opponent down. "---LOL R.G.
Posted by: Faith | August 10, 2006 at 09:15 PM
Edwin Gueco,
Do You have an email? Or anything apart from conventional mail? Cause that's so yesterday lol.
Posted by: Faith | August 10, 2006 at 09:17 PM
The Lakers overachieved last year. Don't expect them to overachieve again this year. It's a heck of a lot harder to go from 45 to 55 wins, than it is to go from 34 to 45 wins. And this year's team is not a heck of a lot better than last year's overachievers. Be realistic about the upcoming year. Just because you're a fan doesn't mean you have to ignore reality, which a lot of you are doing.
Posted by: exhelodrvr | August 10, 2006 at 09:18 PM
Laker Tom,
Truth be told, I don't even remember how this evolved into a Lakers-Clips debate. Weird how that happens, huh? haha
As for Kaman vs. Mihm, I simply disagree with your assessments as to who's got the better indivudual skills you mentioned (for reasons I've dredged up enough by now). But even if I conceded that they're equal, Kaman still reached Mihm's output in half the seasons. And when you consider that Kaman's inmproved every season he's been in the NBA (and at a better rate than Mihm), that logically puts him on a faster track than Mihm. Yeah, you can make an argument that Mihm's been shuffled around, he'd never played a steady system, etc (Although truth be told, Mihm actually had a decent rookie season). But even with all that in mind, I still think Kaman will widen the gap considerably. Just my opinion.
And to clarify, I've never said Mihm is "backup quality at best." You're probably thinking of Mike T. (haha) I've consistently labeled him somewhere between solid but unspectacular starter and excellent backup. You can do worse than Mihm starting, for sure. Reread my "report card" evals. I've also said many times that I think he's somewhat underrated. I just don't think he's quite as good as you apparently do.
And as a sidenote (which might shed a little light on some of the discussion) BK and I also had season credentials for the Clips. Meaning we watched them play a lot in person. So my familiarity with Kaman (and the team in general) is pretty high. Not saying it makes me an "expert" or anything. But it could explain why I've been fairly impressed by a lot of their players.
My bottom line rooting, however, still lies with one team.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | August 10, 2006 at 09:25 PM
Michael A.
Livingston will be "better than good" ? What does that mean? He is their back-up point guard right now, who cares. I simply don't believe that he will be a superstar. And If you think the Clippers are better, good for you. But I am a Laker fan, and don't really care about the Clippers or any other team. But we will just have to see what happens during the season.
Posted by: Ken | August 10, 2006 at 09:27 PM
Guity
Well said. As a Laker fan i hope he can become more consistent like Brand. If that ever happens then there is no way he wont be an All-Star and his inconsistancy is the reason why he hasnt been an All-Star yet. He has the potential (still...) but seems to lack something. Maybe he has too much pressure to live up to. Whatever it is I still consider brand a better player til Odom can get his game together day in and day out.
R.G. Gaznabi
I also agree but I think we already (kinda) have that in Kwame. Kwame is a big guy unfortunately just like Odom he seems to lack something. I just think it might be motivation. Kwame gives up on plays and sometimes seems to be daydreaming. If he can be more than a one-on-one defender and can get his overall defense up with some better help defense he would be great. I really want him to develop in something and it doesnt necesarrily mean offense (how can you score if you cant catch?) and can be a player like Ben Wallace (horrible offense other than some dunks) with great defense. Remember this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VKAj0HQnsuA
Ken
"But I'm a Laker fan not a psuedo Laker fan or Laker/clipper hybrid. I don't know why so many of you are pumping up the clippers, I just don't get it."
Its not about being a Laker or Clipper fan but seeing what reality really is. As a Laker fan I think you overvalue some of the Laker players like Bynum. I think your probably one of those guys that only watches Laker games but not the rest of the league games. I order the season thing (forgot what its called) from digital cable so I can see all the Laker games and other good matchups even if the Lakers arent playing. YOu dont have to be a Laker fan to admit that there are other players in the league that are better than ours. Next your gonna try and say that Farmar is better than Cassel or that Pinnock is better than Maggette. These are proven players (to a point) and atleast for now (which is what we are talking about) all those Clipper players are better than the ones I mentioned (pinnock,Farmar& Bynum). The future might be a different think but this is about now. Im a big Laker fan but I can accept that we dont have the best team or best players in the League right now. Other than Kobe(SG) any other player right now can be upgraded (if there wasnt a salary cap) or traded away. Like I said 2 season from now it might completely different but for now theyre still learning, developing and improving. You cant compare a future Bynum with a present Kaman. Kaman right now is the better player. Thats just reality. I hope you can accept that.
Posted by: Shady | August 10, 2006 at 09:38 PM