Andrew Z,

I have never said and don't think that the Lakers will win a championship this year. I was just curious about what AK thinks the Lakers can do if Kwame steps up and turns into the 15 and 10 guy we need.

More often than not I agree with you in saying that we shouldn't be blinded by our love for the Lakers. I'm very realistic about the Lakers. I think the Lakers will win 48-50 games and grab a 6 seed. And I'm hopeful that we'll be able to pull a first round upset.

WC likely finish, acording to me.

1. San Antonio - Most improved player next year might be Elson - SA knows what they're doing by ditching Nazr and softy Rasho.

2. Dallas - James gives them a nice vet shooter, so no let down when Terry needs a rest.

3. Phoenix - and you could make a case for them at 1 if Amare is 90% or better.

4. Clippers - Much has been made of the Vlade departure, but Thomas fills that spot nicely - if he decides to show up. The youth continue to develop, with Kaman, Livingston, Singleton, and Ewing playing big minutes.

5. Sacto - even if Bonzi leaves, Artest is that good. If you start Bibby, Martin, Artest, Abdur-Rahim, and Miller, there isn't anyone who they won't hang with.

6. Lakers. Vlad and Evans are nice pieces, but lack of strong point play - and low hoops IQ outside of #8/24 - means this team ain't there yet. Sorry guys, I love em, but this is where the Lakers are. And if Kobe goes down hurt, they are out of the playoffs - the rest of the team is that bad.

7. Houston - just ahead of New Orleans. Hornets did more to help themselves than any other team in the West, but they will need some time to gell.

8. Utah. If AK47, Boozer, and, Okur are all healthy.... scary team. Wiliams and D-Fish make a nice 1 2 at the pg.

OUT - Denver. Melo is in for 5 years of hell. K-Mart is the king of all albatross. Too good not to play - too big of a knucklehead to ever reach his potential. Have fun with that.

JUST MISSED - Memphis. And that's if Damon Staudamire stays healthy. They will slip out of contention this year. They will miss Battier more than they think, and Swift is poison. Look for him to be delt soon.

Well Andrew Z.,

I don't know how long you have been watching basketball but that is how championships are built it takes time. No team wins because every player is perfect. It takes an entire squad who is focused on team goals and focused on making their team better. I don't know what Kwame will do as far as stats and I don't care. He needs to practice those free throws have a couple post moves and play some defense. If he does it puts us that much closer to the finals, if not he wont be around too long.

I think that is the diffence between Phil and other coaches. You guys should look at the roster for the 97' Bulls championship squad. They were really flawed but they won it, and the Lakers were at home that year.

Wizo&Dan
Im not necesarily saying I would take Butler over Brown but I wish there was another trade where we couldve kept Butler. He's one of those guys you want to see play and develop to be a good player. He's not a big buy but he's atheletic enough to play the 3 and he wouldve been great playing alongside Kwame and LO. I wouldnt mine playing him at the 3 with a lineup like this
1.Smush
2.Kobe
3.Caron
4.LO
5.Kwame

The reason there is so much pressure on Kwame and LO is because those are the best guys we have and they have to work on both the offense and defense. LO doesnt have a scorers mentality and Kwame has difficulty holding onto the ball and finishing strong around the basket. This is one of the biggest reasons I want AH to be brought in. The reason we brought in Vlad wasnt just for his 3pt shoooting but for more offense since he's not a great defender. AH would contribute a lot more than Vlad and we would be a much more athletic team were we could be run and gun team against teams like Mavs and Suns. Too bad we had to give up Caron to get Kwame but at the time as you both have mentioned we need some help in the big man department. Too bad but we have what we have and we should support our team.

AK
The reason "Know thy Enemy" didnt get too many hits is because you added the George thread the same day. If given time I could see us analyzing every single player in the opposing team. The better the team the more discussion on matchups and problems we can or will have.

Edwin, that suit against Stern that was settled out of court was a private suit. The current case involves the Federal government laying their own charges, and it's nowhere near settled yet. Just so you know.

I agree with you that we shouldn't start throwing labels around until we know more, but it sure doesn't sound good. I wonder if that'll affect the Clippers at all.

Ken,

I've watched basketball for awhile, long enough to know how a championship team is built. I agree that the best teams aren't rosters full of All-Stars, but I also know that they need to be both deep and talented, even if talented means excelling at the role they are paid to play. I for one don't think the Lakers, as currently comprised, have the overall talent level to win a title. They might have the right players, they just might be a couple years off. I don't know, but right now they are not there yet. Is there a possibility that this year is when Kwame, LO, Smush, etc. make the jump and raise the overall talent level? Sure, but it's highly unlikely they all improve that much at the same time.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Ken,

Kaman may not be as good a pure post defender as Kwame, but he's a better help defender, so it's about even in the end. And he smokes Kwame on the offensive end. There may not a big man in the league better using either hand than Kaman. He's a much better overall player than Kwame.

And yeah, Livingston only put up 6 pts/4.5 assists, but again, he's not even their starter, Cassell is. And that's not even the point, really. Given the choice between him and Smush, with all due respect to Mr. Parker, Livingston would win. He's a better passer, creates more mismatches with his height and is a WAY better defender. The only thing Smush does considerably better is shoot.

And you also shouldn't really compare LO against Maggette, because he's likely the counterpart to Brand. And as much as I love LO, you can't possibly rank him ahead of Brand. You need to rank either Walton/Vlad to Maggette/Thomas, and at its most Lakers-generous, that's a tie.

And once you get into the bench, that's where the Clips really have a distinct advantage. A theoretical lineup of Livingston, Thomas (or Maggette), Aaron Williams, Mobley and James Singleton is much better than (theoretically) Mihm, Walton, Evans, Shammond/Farmar/Sasha, and Cook/Turiaf. It just is.

AK

Dmack

I agree but the thing about today's league is it would be just as plausible to see Duncan et al show their age, Dallas to drop due to being Dallas and Amare not making it back from the same operation that cut C Webb down to average. If Bonzi leaves, Sacto drops to 7. I like Artest but he's hasn't shown that much offensive consistency. One more solid, contributing vet signing, and the Lakes move up consisderably. If not, we might be middle of the pack as Tex inferred but the off season is time to blog and dream big.

Chim Chim and Xodus

Please read

Zakee,

Dude, c'mon. You're just treating this like a homer. LO is Brand's equal? Are you joking? Brand was a dark horse MVP candidate and a franchise player. I'm a HUGE LO fan, but he's not that. Kaman is closer to Kwame on OVERALL D than you're giving him credit and smokes Kwame offensively. There ain't a coach in the league that would start any of our PG's ahead of Cassell. And the Clips' bench features Livingston, Mobley (or Ross) and Thomas (or Maggette). C'mon, man, that's way better than what the Lakers are putting out.

Even Laker Tom admitted much of what I'm saying, and he's the ULTIMATE Laker optmist (I say that with all respect, Tom).

AK

Zakee, LakerTom - actually, just about everything I want to say, AK said. Tom, Maggette is the likely starter at SF, so the edge is even more towards the Clippers among the starters. I think Ross is actually better, just with the defence he plays, than anybody we have backing up Kobe. And no offence to Kwame, but there isn't a GM in the league who'd take him over Kaman. Seriously. If Kwame was a good help defender, we might have beaten Phoenix last year. Meanwhile, Brand and Kaman formed the best rebounding tandem in the league last year. Given their youth, I don't think that's going away.

My fear is that we run into injuries this year, because we were pretty lucky with that last year. If we do, we simply haven't got the depth to deal with it. We don't have enough guys who can carry the load. I think we can have a very good year, but a lot of things have to go right.

Either way, it's still a lot better than watching the Knicks. :-)

AK:

You know what, it's just like Yankees vs. Mets. The Lakers have nine NBA championships, Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, and their own LA Times blog. The Clippers have zero NBA championships, no all-NBA players, a former Lakers coach, and no blog.

One year of winning 2 more games and going 1 more round deeper in the playoffs does not make a franchise. Until proven otherwise, the Lakers are the winners and the Clippers, no matter how hard you argue, are still the losers who have never won anything.

We'll settle it on the court this year, AK. And at that time we will all expect your final no-excuses admission in the blog that the Lakers are the better team.

Tom

Ken,

Actually, in fairness to both of us, it's hard to say who next year's starting 2 and 3 are with the Clips, since Dunleavy moved around Maggette, Ross, Mobley and Vlad quite a bit, especially down the stretch.

But even with matching up Kobe against Mobley (where it's obviously advantage Kobe), if the Laker 3 is Vlad and the Clips 3 is Maggette, I'm going slight advantage Clips, because Maggette's more complete. If it's Thomas, I go advantage Lakers, since I don't trust Thomas to be consistent. But either way, either Thomas or Maggette ends up coming off the bench, which shores up the Clips end quite a bit, especially if it's Maggette.

AK

Michael A.

Agree. It was published in the LA Times that Justice Dept. filed a discrimination suit that Don was favoring Korean tenants. However, it still on trial and no conviction yet. Right now, I'm sure he is under pressure to protect his integrity, so it's better to avoid a peripheral or a related lawsuit.

Michael, when engaged in lawsuits it's not the winning or losing the case but the legal costs involved that could turn you into an overnight pauper!

Wow, did I miss out on some banter. Ain't that always the way?

For the record, I think the Clippers currently have a better team than the Lakers, though I do think the Lakers have improved more this offseason in terms of additions (until Tim Thomas shows he's not a dog who only plays when there's a contract on the line, I'll assume he is).

BK

AK and Mike A

LO has the reb and more assist then Brand. If Brand was as nice as you think he is, then the USA would not be stuggling the way they are with all those other players. Don't kid yourself if you think this guy changes games, because he doesn't. He is very solid though, just like LO. In fact LO is a INTERCHANGEABLE player so that makes him more valuable to a team like the LAKERS.

Cassel is washed up when it comes to play off time. Check the record. He has been hurt for the last 3 playoffs with back inguries. And your boy Livingston can't shoot worth a lick.

Kobe is better then Maggete and Mobley so please don't name them becasue they have to stick Kobe.

Kaman. I think he is better offensively like I said, but yoiu need defense in order to beat Duncan and Shaq, not offense. That is why the Clippers are just a OK team. Nothing Special

And who said that AK and Mike are right. We won 45 games last year and we were suppose to be gabbage. What do you think is going to happen this year with depth and 1 year of experience?

Mike and AK AND Xodus

Ross can't stick KOBE. Neither can Maggette.

Can Elton stick LO on the perimeter

The NBA is about matchups

First off, a blanket statement directed at few. I have to say its kinda annoying when you take someones argument to the extreme, and then argue against the extreme. How about we just read the posts and take them as it is. When someone praises Kwame, they arent saying hes an allstar. When someone points out some fault in Bynum, dont interpret that as he is a worthless piece of crap. When someone says the Lakers CAN win the championship, its a very different thing than saying the Lakers WILL win the championship.
---

Ok, my thoughts:

PG: As Ken pointed out , AK, you are mixing up current ability and potential with Livingston. However, I think thats fine for this topic, since these comparisons should be based on projections, after all, we are trying to "predict the future"...so i'll give you that on Livingston...who i think will be a great PG btw. However, he does still struggle mightily to score. Still, Cassell is money and they have good depth. But I have to add, our PG situation at least looks a lot better off than last year tho.
Edge: Clips.

SG: I'm not even gonna spend any time on this one.
Edge: Huge edge Lakers.

SF: Im actually not a big maggette fan. He primarily does one thing. Score. And for someone that is THAT athletic, he doesnt play good defense at all. (even tho he should). The worst thing is that he cannot faciliate or really create for others, not being a good passer. At the same time, we significantly improved at the SF spot. Vlad gives us the shooting we needed badly...and I think people will be surprised, he's not as slow as some would think. While weaker than Peja, he is quicker than Peja. Luke is a real nice backup 3 to have. He can facilitate and smart, and is great to have out there as long as we arent up against an athletic 3. This is where Mo Evans may provide a huge help. Obviously Rad and Luke will have problems with super fast 3's, but I think Mo will help in this area...and hes not a bad scorer either. Honestly, I like the Lakers 3's, but Im sure most will disagree. But its close either way in my opinion.
Edge: Wash

PF: Again, Im sure you will automatically give this to the clips cuz of Brand. But while Brand is the "better" player, LO is one of the most unique players in the league and causes much more difficult matchup problems. And his ballhandling and passing from a big are invaluable, while also being a good defender and GREAT rebounder. Brand is great too....they fufill different roles. But we've seen them in head to head matchups and lamar holds his own. The scary thing is lamar has more room to grow at this point in their careers. In terms of talent and upside, Lamar blows Brand away. Of course, you'll say we havent seen it yet. True, but just a point im making that lamar can get signficantly better. Tim Thomas is obviously a lot nicer to have than Cook and thats why I'll give the edge to Clips. (Then again, you guys have to worry about "Non-contract Year" Tim Thomas showing up haha).
Edge: SLIGHTY Clips.

C: I think its a wash. Yeah Kaman is great. But again, really its like comparing apples and oranges to an extent. I really think Kwame is underated. You say he's good at one thing, post defense. But think about it, how important is that!? and in the playoffs, in fact, its CRITICAL! Yeah, I agree no GM will take Kwame over Kaman, but at the same time lets say you have Mihm and are playing the Spurs, do you think every GM will take Kaman over Kwame? In this situation I'll take Kwame to guard Duncan.
In the playoffs, it will be much more critical to contain guys like Duncan than to score. and Mihm does give us some offense in the low post and is a much better backup than Rebraca or Davis. And as much as I harp on Bynum, it isnt that he sucks but that his upside is lower than I thought. But already he shows signs of playing some post D and blocking shots. Really, no matter your opinion of Kaman, I think overall, you have to say its close to a wash or slight edge to Clips at best. To be fair tho, if Kaman continues to improve he can tip the scales on this one as well.
Edge: Wash to SLIGHT edge Clips.

One thing we should be clear tho is what we mean by "better team". Is it simply the sum of its individuals? I think every coach in the league would say "No." (Especially anyone coaching the last couple USA teams. =) )
So who will have the better reg season record? I dunno, IMO, its close so it could be either. But if I have to bet on a 7 game series, I'll take the Lakers.

Why, when the Clips seem like the deeper team? Cuz of Kobe. AK admitted Kobe is by far the best player of the 2 teams....but I think you have to realize how important that is....to have the best player. It is a huge advantage and it is why as much as things like depth, teamwork, and coaching are important to winning a championship, the simple fact is, superstars can win you championships. Yes the other things are important too...but its why Memphis cant advance in the playoffs every year. Its these stars that elevate their games in the playoffs. They play 46 mins instead of their usual 38-40 and they can single handedly alter the momentum of games. Most writers analyzing last year's finals matchups, broke it down, and picked the Mavs. Some picked Mia, why? off the strength of 2 players, shaq and wade. Turns out, shaq didnt show up...yet Wade was able to carry the entire team on its back and win it. A lot of it has to do with crunch time. Superstars win the close games. When down 3 points with 2 mins left, do you want great depth and coaching? or do you want a Kobe, Lebron, or Wade?

While David Stern recently seems hyper-focused on all the ways he can enforce small changes in the NBA to improve the product, my belief is that bad contracts are the number one headache in the league. Look at the list of highest paid players:

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

There are some good players on there. Worthy of building a franchse around. But for every legit star on the list, there are just as many humps earning way above what they're worth and killing their team's cap.

I've heard many times how people believe the NFL is the gold standard of pro sports leagues - and to my understanding, they have the best system in place of dealing with bad contracts - cut em.

I think that as long as the Lakers have Kobe than we are better than clips.

Wait a second. Digest this for a second.

If all you can concede is a slight advantage for the Clippers than we will beat them over the long haul because of Kobe.

Yes, Kobe is that good.

The Clippers dont have that level of unstoppable superstar. And if you say Brand is a unstoppable superstar you are fooling yourself because you know Cassell takes the big shots and Brand while putting up #s doesnt have the take the game over killer instinct Kobe possesses.

Kobe's advantage is so decidedly big that it trumps any advantage that the Clips may have.

This may sound like "Kobe jockin" or whatever but it is the same deal with any team that has a top 3 player in the league.

Kobe puts so much strain on the Clippers lineup in terms of foul trouble and defensive focus on one player that the Clippers have a very difficult time beating the Lakers (as does every team that is "slightly better".)

I dont feel as if I really analyzed my point like I could but just know that the KOBE FACTOR is such a huge disparity that it cancels out the slight advantages the Clips have at other positions.

This is the reason the Heat beat the Mavs. The Mavs obviously had the better team. But come 3rd/4th quarter they had NO ANSWER for Wade (and the refs helping Wade!!).

Tell me one player on the Clips that the Lakers just have no answer for? One player that we cant possibly slow down?

Exactly.

Fun to see us Lakerfans in denial. Im sorry but the Clippers overall have better players. They are deeper but do not have a HUGE advanatage and thats why we still can have a good close game with them where its a tossup any given night. You should combine both teams and make one team and see what you guys come up with. Get the best of each team for your starting lineup and bench. Chances are there will be more Clippers than Lakers. The only guys that we might even consider in there would be Kobe,LO,Kwame,Vlad and thats only 4 out of 10 (5starters,5bench). If you go even deeper there would be even more Clips then Lakers. I dotn see the Clippers really becoming a that great where they will start beating the Lakers every single time they play. Last season ended in a 2-2 tie and this year we will have another 4 games to see how each matchup against each other. That being said the Clippers did win more games with injuries than we did with no injuries(other than Mihm).

1) Caron vs. Kwame:
The trade last year was Caron Butler and Chuckie Atkins for Kwame Brown and Laron Profit. All things considered, this was an excellent trade for the Lakers. I love Caron Butler too, but it was not likely he would have been retained in free agency (this year). He was not an effective defender in the Laker system. Also, a player like Butler at the 3 can be compensated for in a variety of ways. On the other hand, a solid post defender at nearly 7 ft who can run the floor and who has considerable upside as a rebounder AND who can play heavy minutes is rare. The 3-year commitment to make Kwame a player (especially at center) was thus an excellent risk vs. reward decision. Laron Profit was a solid 10-12 minute backup for Kobe before getting hurt. He was a good pickup. Chucky Atkins is a journeyman shoot-first point guard and a bad defender. He was not in the Lakers longer term plans, and rightfully so.

2) Laker roster:
After Ken's post of 10:16 PM last night, I am feeling better about the current roster (without Al Harrington). I have a good feeling about LO this year. I do like the idea of Mihm (and Cook) to be moved for a player ... since their contracts are up this year. In that regard, Al Harrington is the only imagineable possibility that is intriguing. However, I would be happy either way (with or without AH). The Lakers will be headed in the right direction either way ... and they do realistically have a shot at the WCF either way. The key is defense and mismatches on offense ... the latter is already in place. I believe as the season progresses they will become an excellent defensive team. Keys to that as the season progresses are Farmar and Evans, Turiaf and Bynum. The second unit could be a tough defensive unit ... unlike the last two years. Even Rad is underrated as a team defender (if not an individual defender) ... he is known to be very good at switching and is quick into and back out of a double team. I am especially excited about the possibilities on defense. The team is being built with that especially in mind.

3) Lakers vs. Clippers:
Player by player comparision is misleading. It is difficult to make a strong case for the Lakers with that approach, but with a more subjective view, I prefer the direction the Lakers are going. I think that they have more roster stability and nearly all players are on the upswing. That cannot be said about the Clippers. I would have been sick if the Lakers signed Tim Thomas, for example. Kaman may leave next year, Cassell is good only for now, and I think Livingston will not pan out as everyone expects.

Leo

wiZo:

Bravo. Superb post on why the Lakers would beat the Clippers. I agree with you regarding the value of Kobe as the best player, the value of Lamar and his versatility, and the value of our having both Kwame and Mihm as centers. You did a much better job than I did of getting those points across, especially the value of Kobe.

Anyone who has ever played basketball, whether it was in college, high school, rec league, or a pickup game, understands how important having the best player in the game is -- not only because of what that player can do but also because of the swagger and confidence that he gives everybody else on the team.

I would also like to add two other related factors that I really think also add to Lakers side of the equation in a matchup versus the Clippers.

The first is what I would call the Lakers mistique as a championship franchise. There is something intangible but real when you put on a Laker's uniform much like there is when you put on Yankee pinstripes. I think it gives every player on the Lakers an extra ounce of swagger and confidence. On the flip side, the Clipper players may deny it but they cannot help but also sense and fear the Laker mistique.

The second is what I will call Phil Jackson's cache as a championship coach. The Lakers players know that their coach is a guy who has been there nine times and knows how to build a winner. The way the team performed down the stretch last season demonstrated that. You can be sure that every player on our team is a little more confident because of Phil and every player on the Clippers a little more worried because of Phil.

Thanks for helping put the Clippers back in their proper postition -- below the Lakers.

Tom

Lakers > Clippers

I know, I tried it in nbe live!! ^___^

LakerTom,

Thanks for the discussion. I too hope we're celebrating you being right and me eating crow.

Here's a question for you. Let's say the roster we have now with no major additions before the season starts is what we play with, what would you consider the least this team has to do to consider it a successful season? 50 wins and first round exit? Get to the second round of the playoffs? Win it all? I'm curious. I often rush to judgement on what bloggers say without hearing what they really expect of this team. it's one thing to be hopeful, another to have set expectations.