How Cool Would This Have Been?
I gotta figure Ali would have pulled this out, but it's hard to bet against Wilt in anything. Even out of his element. But nonetheless, I'm giving it to the G.O.A.T.
I have no doubt, however, as to which fighter would have... um, "celebrated"... bigger after the match, regardless of who actually walked away with the title.
AK
Wilt will not last one round to Ali. If the big wild bear, Sonny Liston could not do it what more of Wilt. He'd be 7 feet punching bag and I doubt if Wilt could hit the floating butterfly, Ali,
I think Kareem Jabbar's karate chops and sidekicks have more chances on Ali, but still in the end, both of them will hit the canvas cuz the bigger they are, the larger the target.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 29, 2006 at 04:55 PM
Wilt was a great athlete, but there is no way he was beating the GREATEST in a boxing match. I'll give Wilt the height, strength, and the reach advantage, but I give Ali the speed, quickness, ring savvy, and most importantly experience to Ali.
It probably would have been a good fight, but there is no way Wilt would have been able to land enough blows to hurt Ali. And Ali would have just danced around Wilt, and made him waste energy until the later rounds where Ali would chop him down like a tree.
Posted by: Weave-Man | July 29, 2006 at 04:59 PM
The bigger they are, the harder they fall...no way wilt wouldve have been albe to hang with Ali, Ali would kill him with body shots...
Posted by: TrueLakerFan | July 29, 2006 at 05:30 PM
Unfortunately for Wilt, athleticism alone doesn't allow you to shine in a different sport. Ask that great baseball player Michael Jordan.
Posted by: Jay Jay | July 29, 2006 at 05:41 PM
Would the fight been in early 1971? I'm gald it didn't happen. Wilt was no match for Ali. But the 1971-1972 basketball season was magical for Wilt and the Lakers. 33 straight wins and a championship. Wilt was the laker captain. He was a FORCE. Defence, rebounding, those long outlet passes to West and Goodrich setting up the fast break...ah it was heaven. Wish there was some video game tapes or audio recordings of that year availible to buy.
Posted by: 33 Straight Wins | July 29, 2006 at 07:05 PM
Hey, if Manute Bol could beat the 'Fridge....
Posted by: Hunter | July 29, 2006 at 07:18 PM
Next Topic
Posted by: sonnybelfast | July 29, 2006 at 07:25 PM
IF I was alive back then and was a Laker fan I think I would back up Wilt just for the fact that he was a Laker, even though im pretty sure he wouldve lost
AK/BK
Another time out?
Posted by: Shady | July 29, 2006 at 07:34 PM
Sylvia, Orlovski or any UFC Champ would wreck any of those guys, including Cassius or Tyson, much less any round ball player. How's that for cross trained athleticism?
What I'd really like to see (in a cage) would be Doug Christie finish off what pretty boy Fox started on the court. Better still, with one hand tied behind his back, let Ron Ron dance on your boy. Oh it's fun to pretend! I kind of like being able to slip in and out of fantasyland any time I wish. That may be the real value of SoCal.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | July 29, 2006 at 07:37 PM
Sonny,
Now, Christie finishing off "pretty boy" Fox would def. be the pot calling the kettle black. I mean, christie helps his wife design and sell purses....so, who is the pretty boy?
Posted by: Elyse | July 29, 2006 at 07:55 PM
Why couldn't Wilt just fight Frazier for the title if we was so good?
Posted by: zen | July 29, 2006 at 08:14 PM
Sonny, Elyse,
We could always even out the odds and have Fox fight Christie's wife. haha
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | July 29, 2006 at 08:27 PM
Elyse,
Fox is a Fox. Ask any woman. Ask yourself.
You are a woman aren't you?
Christie, on the other hand, may design purses, but also has an incredible uppercut. Wouldn't you agree?
Ak,
Fox vs. Mrs Christie? Now there's a cat fight.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | July 29, 2006 at 08:33 PM
The big dipper! My favorite athlete of all time. I was never an Ali fan back then. I was cheering when Joe Frazier beat him. I was cheering when Leon Spinks beat him. People always hate the greatest, especially when they talk like they're all that and Ali did that with the best. It wasn't until later that I came to be an Ali fan. I don't remember exactly when that happened but it did. He was the greatest boxer for sure.
Chamberlain has a special place in my heart because when I started following the Lakers he was the center. He was the force of a 33 game winning streak (can't forget Jerry West). I just have pleasant memories about Wilt.
I remember laying on my bed, reading the morning news paper, the day after Chamberlain died. I remember reading a short little piece about how someone called Bill Russell to inform him that Chamberlain had died. When Russell heard the news and was asked for his reaction, there was a silence over the phone. Then finally he said: I am serverly injured. It brought tears to my eyes. My childhood hero was dead, and I, too, was serverly injured. As sports fan...I loved Chamberlain!
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | July 29, 2006 at 08:37 PM
If Wilt had a true PG in his corner, he could easily beat Ali. That is why Farmar needs to start!!
Posted by: exhelodrvr | July 29, 2006 at 08:54 PM
Sonny,
I'd rather fight Doug Christie than his lady. She scares me more than all of Satan's minions. And she obviously scares her husband even more than that. haha
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | July 29, 2006 at 09:08 PM
From hoopsworld:
LA LAKERS (losers): Considering the meltdown the Lakers had in the playoffs, you’d have thought they would have done more than Vladimir Radmanovic and Jordan Farmar – but that’s the Lakers off-season so far. The upside is the bulk of the team is one-more year together; Kobe had minor knee surgery to clear up a nagging soreness and everybody is a little more prepared. Andrew Bynum could have a role this year, and Ronny Turiaf will be with the team all year, so its possible the Lakers get out of the gate a little faster this year.
The point guard spot still is a concern, although Smush Parker had a great season last year, it was his meltdown and total break down in confidence in the playoffs that should have prompted a veteran guard being brought in (Shammond Williams is not the guy), but there are still a few options out there. By and large the Lakers could have down more in the off-season to address real needs, but time will tell if the moves made – make the Lakers better or worse.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | July 29, 2006 at 09:09 PM
Sonny,
For Christie whoever, or any of the UFC fighters to beat Ali (or any other great boxing champ) it would have to be their style of fight with their rules. There is NO ONE past or present in UFC that could beat Ali in a BOXING match. It's laughable for you to even think that.
The best fight for Ali would have been against Cassius Clay (his younger self for any of you that don't know). I personally think Clay would beat Ali everytime. Clay was young, quick, intelligent, and had more moves in the ring than any other fighter of his time. Ali on the other hand wasn't as quick (still quicker than everybody else), didn't move as well, and relyed more on his power. The best part about this is the man was sooooo good that he could adjust his style and still beat ANYBODY!!!!! True greatness!!!!!
Posted by: Weave-Man | July 29, 2006 at 09:09 PM
ya, money is on the wife.....
she scares me too.
but in reality, I don't think it really matters... If Fox loses, he goes home, and ices his face while staring at his three rings. Christie still has to go home to his wife, empty handed (pun intended)... at least until she designs him a purse.
Posted by: Elyse | July 29, 2006 at 10:54 PM
Weaveman,
As they say every generation is always better than the previous one. However, I don't know if you can compare any great renaissance than the Sixties, the Age of Ali. Historians compared it to the Elizabethan era during the time of Shakespeare in the Middle Ages. There were changes going on simultaneously in all areas of society. Rock n Roll was starting to bloom by Elvis, followed at a crescendo by Beatlemania, in boxing it was Ali, Ali, Ali.. Celtics in basketball under the great Bill Russel followed by the Lakers who can't beat the Celtics... age of Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris in baseball... run OJ run "the juice" not yet an accused felon... the life and era of Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor.... disco beat of the 60's changed every week from one group after the other from rock, to soul, blues, jazz to folk to protest march.... war & race riots.... the age of discontent shown by rebellion against tradition.... space exploration under John Glenn.... the assasination of the two Kennedys, MLK... the revolution of times when equality dreamt by Lincoln were finally being realized... and rights of women was also addressed. Although it was the start of drug era referred as the flower children, ended up at Woodstock Remembered the theme of the times was Make LOVE Not WAR..and the signs are all....PEACE.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 29, 2006 at 11:07 PM
Weave,
I won't argue your assessment of Clay vs. Ali, and yes, he was phenomenal to watch.
I'm not so sure that a Lois, Marciano, Baer, Tyson and perhaps others (in their prime of course) couldn't have whipped Ali. You can't be so sure either.
AK probably has it right. Mrs. Christie would probably bust all of their balls, basketballs of course.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | July 30, 2006 at 12:16 AM
now you know you guys are wrong for talking about peoples wife's, but it is pretty funny lolz...
Go Lakers
Posted by: TrueLakerFan | July 30, 2006 at 01:24 AM
Jim Brown also once wanted to fight Ali. After they met in a park, Jim Brown changed his mind.
"Other top-level athletes outside of boxing had entertained the idea of fighting him before. While Ali was preparing for a fight in London in 1966, football legend Jim Brown was in the area working on the film “The Dirty Dozen”. Brown informed Bob Arum, with whom he was acquainted, that he wanted to challenge Ali to a fight for the title. When Ali heard this, he instructed Arum to have Brown meet him in Hyde Park where Ali took his morning training runs. When Brown arrived, Ali told the NFL star to try and hit him and not worry about whether Ali got hurt. Brown proceeded to throw a barrage of heavy punches, all of which Ali dodged with ease. With Brown still swinging in earnest, Ali playfully slapped Brown’s face repeatedly as the latter’s punches sailed by in futility. Brown quietly dropped his challenge thereafter."
http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?p=429846#post429846
Posted by: Rich C | July 30, 2006 at 01:51 AM
Weave,
You're absolutely right. No UFC fighter would stand a chance against a top flight professional boxer in a "boxing" match, but a boxer would need the protection of double digit ounces of padding on his fists and a lot of protective rules to stand a chance in a real fight against some of the phenomenal, fully rounded UFC athletes we're seeing today.
In a fight, I'll take Matt Hughes over Tyson in a heartbeat. It would be over in under two minutes and Tyson outweighs him significantly. If rules (including UFC) were not applied, Tyson would be sent back to the gene pool, which come to think of it, is a bad idea.
I never suggested that Christie could beat Cassius (Ali) or Mrs Christie (who totally has him whipped and scares me), but Doug womped on pretty boy Fox both on the floor and in the tunnel. We all saw it and we all laughed, the double irony being that Rick, a Laker tough guy, was classy and a Brokeback.
Go Kings! Go Niners!
Posted by: sonnybelfast | July 30, 2006 at 02:35 AM
Mr. Gueco,
Nice synopsis of the 60's. In 1968, the White Album was new, Easy Rider had made its appearance, I had burned my first one and was attending Compton J.C.. That's where I got an in-person whiff of Angela Davis at the first anti War moratorium, just before they scooped me up and shipped me over.
Disco however, was a mid to late 70's phenom. A good time, after the very heavy 60's.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | July 30, 2006 at 02:53 AM
Somebody please tell me. Where is Arthas these days?
Posted by: sonnybelfast | July 30, 2006 at 03:13 AM
Ali would have killed him.
That much said, I hope the entire Lakers team is being being led through martial arts training by Kareem Abdul-Jabaar.
I honestly believe that Kareem's longevity as a player is partially related to the fact that he trained in martial arts under Bruce Lee.
I had one teacher who used to throw me around like a matchstick who was 92 years old and 5' 2"! That's no lie nor an exaggeration. 92! And I was 27.
One of my grandmasters, Ark Wong, nearly killed four men in an alley in a fight. He was 88 at the time.
Bynum, Kobe, Lamar, Rad Vlad, Luke, Kwame, Sasha, CMihm, Farmar... they need to be training in martial arts with Kareem barking orders.
It's good for the team.
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | July 30, 2006 at 06:25 AM
Sonny,
That is very true. It is impossible to know who would have won Ali vs. (A young hungry)Tyson, or any other great fighter, but that's also what makes sports fun. Yeah, you never know who would have won, but you and a bunch of friends can sit and argue on a Saturday about who you think is the best, and why. To me (and to most of you since you're on this blog) talking sports is one of my favorite things to do.
Posted by: Weave-Man | July 30, 2006 at 08:08 AM
There will NEVER be another Ali!!! Wilt couldn't have beat Ali in a fight BUT Wilt would have destroyed Ali in a basketball game. Long Live "The Greatest"!!! Rest in peace, Wilt!!! You left us far too soon!!!!
Hey Mike T.
Cool article! What other options considering our limited cap space did we have? Obviously, Phil & Mitch thought the lack of a consistent three point threat was more of a need than a point guard. Personally, I don't know if I agree with that judgement BUT I don't get paid to make those decisions. As much as we hate to do it, we'll al have to wait until the season starts to find out!!
Posted by: Mitch | July 30, 2006 at 09:03 AM
Sorry everybody, but Wilt would have killed Ali in an honest fight. I don't think that he could have beaten Sonny Liston, either - that is in an honest fight. There was a HBO special a few years back that strongly indicates that Liston threw his fight with Ali, either because of bribery, or because of threats on his life - he then died under questionable circumstances.
Posted by: Roger B | July 30, 2006 at 09:22 AM
Sonny Belfast,
Frankly, I was still young then and not allowed in bars and clubs but I tell you that generation revolutionized the disco music. Every week there is always a new group, new sound coming up. The 70's was just an offshoot of what was started in the 60's because in the latter decade so many things were going on and you couldn't focus on one subject matter as if the best of the best mingled in that era as well as the worst political events that moved the whole world.
With regards to Ali & Marciano, I believe there was a computerized fight that was shown in the theaters at that time. I don't remember whether it was a draw or a decision won by Ali. I just remember Marciano hit the deck with bloodied face. Well, that was possible because of his inherent handicap in height and reach, on the other hand Ali could move/dance like a flyweight and hit you with a series of jabs and combination like a heavyweight. If Tyson fought Ali, it won't last six rounds and would be frustrated for he could not bite the butterfly. I think Ali overextended his stay in the ring and fought young fighters like Leon Spinks and the succeeding ones while he was aging and absorbed the blows, ultimately this caused his Parkinsons problem today. But he was something in that era.
In basketball, it was Bill Russell, Wilt, Elgin Baylor, Elvin Hayes. I forgot to mention Arthur Ashe in Tennis, Arnold Palmer & Jack Nicklaus in golf and also Sandy Koufax with Dodgers, as well as Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente and Bob Gibson, Joe Namath in NFL and finally, USA Hockey won the gold.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 30, 2006 at 09:53 AM
Jon Kavaulic,
You are extremely right on that martial arts thing. I have often advocated that these weeks are the most important time for the Lakers. Rather than debating whether to start Farmar or Smush, these two guys should learn how to fall to prevent injuries. With regards to getting even with Raja Bell, if you know Martial Arts you don't need an enforcer to do it, a slight bump could sidelined him w/o the attention of the referees (however, it's still not advisable cuz' the Good Lord knew what you just did). Lakers should train also in judo and the chinese open palm combat fighting to train their reflexes and concentration which very advisable especially to Kwame.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 30, 2006 at 10:05 AM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_18278.shtml
check that site out..
what do yall think, if we get drew gooden or al harrington?
Posted by: Brylle | July 30, 2006 at 10:32 AM
roger B.
no body couls beat ali in a fight.the 2 hardest punchers where said to be (talking champions)where george forman and rocky marciano.marcian wasnt fast or agile but he could take a beating and knok u out with one punch.forman had the strengh of a bull.forman couldnt beat ali so marcian wont be neither,marciano was not declared the greatest even though he was undefeated and retired as the champ coz ali was that damm good.
i saw the replies and would like t thani u all for caring and praying for me and my country,i m fine and the war is close to be over.
Posted by: purpleandgold | July 30, 2006 at 10:52 AM
Interesting article, Brylle.
One thing that bothers me though (and I see it in this blog all the time as well). There is No, I repeat NO Way Lamar can play the point. With Kobe and Lamar at the guards, the Tony Parkers and Steve Nashes of the league will run rings around them and have a nonstop party in the paint. Plus it will leave our two best scorers exhausted from chasing those guys around. Lamar can switch from 4 to 3 easily enough, but we are STILL lacking the great defensive point guard we need (hear that Mitch?).
Posted by: Jay Jay | July 30, 2006 at 11:11 AM
Brylle,
I'd give Al Harrington 10 mil a year, but I'm not sure about Gooden. Let's also remember that after Grant's salary comes off, we'd only be under the cap like 5-10 million I believe (Andrew Z, help me out here) so you'd have to be pretty sure that it's Gooden that you want for that long term deal, and salary cap strapped future. In any case, I have to admit I don't know much about him though.
P.S. If I'm wrong about the salary cap thing, sorry.
Posted by: Faith | July 30, 2006 at 11:18 AM
If "it's still not advisable cuz' the Good Lord knew what you just did", why discuss how it could be done. Would you really want to "sideline" an NBA player because he gave your boy a dose of his own medicine? And please, don't tell me the Saint doesn't (very cleverly) throw cheap elbows all the time.
Posted by: sonnybelfast | July 30, 2006 at 11:24 AM
Sonny Belfast,
It is easy to say he gave your boy a doze of your own medicine because you're not a Laker fan. You sound as if you have an inherent jealousy, I don't know whether the Lakers, the people of Los Angeles or with Kobe in particular that you consider that sinister act as his doze of his own medicine. It is clear tha Raja could not guard Kobe, so he levels him to the ground and it was a bait for Kobe to retaliate to forever silenced the Lakers in the playoffs. Granted that it was bad to react and stoop to the level of Raja Bell's mentality, sometimes it is necessary to teach him a lesson for he was never contrite to what he did and even proud of it that HE, RAJA BELL clotheslined Kobe. He could always say that he's not only a Kobe stopper but almost killed Kobe. (Never have that kind of attitude in South Central and East LA, you will never leave the area alive!)
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 30, 2006 at 11:54 AM
Thanks for the article Brylle.
I've liked Drew Gooden since he was at Kansas but I don't see him as a 10 million dollar a year player. I do understand his wanting that much money though. He's been more effective in his career than Nene and he managed to steal a 60 million dollar deal from the Nuggets.
The Lakers need to avoid overpaying for someone in the baddest way. If they do we'll be stuck in hoops purgatory for years to come. That's good enough to make the playoffs each season, win about 50 games and even make it to a Conference final or two, but not have a legitimate shot at winning a title.
Posted by: Xodus | July 30, 2006 at 12:17 PM
Maaaaaaan, Gooden is a bum. Harrington is nasty. But what we really need is a REAL Power Forward. Meaning, they need a get down and dirty big man who dont need to score particularly to have an impact on the floor. Also, great Defense and good Rebounding futher fills in the description for the kinda player we need. Those are neither of those two cats.
however, if mitch plans on aquiring them to package them with Cook, Sasha and /or even Mihm...FOR the PF we neeed, then GO FOR IT.
smush starts/farmar and bynum flourish in the DLeague for most of the season/ Brown becomes the new B.Wallace with more offense/GO LA!
Posted by: blaze1bx | July 30, 2006 at 12:41 PM
Brylle:
Looks like Eric Pincus has the same problem that the blog does generating interest in the "dog days of summer."
I don't think the Lakers would trade Mihm for Gooden. Maybe Harrington, but not Gooden. Here are last year's stats for the three players:
Al Harrington: 18.6 ppg - 6.9 rpg
Drew Gooden: 10.6 ppg - 8.2 rpg
Chris Mihm: 10.6 ppg - 6.2 rpg
It is easy to see what Harrington would bring to the Lakers. Gooden, on the other hand, was only slightly more productive than Mihm. He also has a tendency to disappear for long stretches of time, which is one reason why the Cavs are not willing to re-sign him for what he wants at this point.
I think the Lakers should keep Mihm. If he can backup at the 4 spot effectively as well as the 5 spot and he continues to improve as much as he did last year, I think there is a good chance that the Lakers would extend Mihm's contract. I also think the Lakers are not yet convinced that Bynum is ready yet for big minutes and would prefer to have Mihm in reserve behind Kwame.
The factors that will determine whether the Lakers trade Mihm or let him go as a free agent next year are whether or not Mihm can learn to play the 4, whether or not Kwame continues to develop as the starting center, and whether or not Bynum is ready to become the #2 center. Until those factors are determined, Chris Mihm should remain a Laker.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 12:42 PM
Edwin:
That was a beautiful and eloquent post about the wondrous 60's. I am probablly one of the few bloggers old enough to have actually experienced the 60's firsthand.
Was your post a series of remembrances or just a historical recounting? It read as if you were there.
Thanks.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 12:52 PM
Jay Jay:
I agree with you regarding Lamar as our starting point guard. I do think there are situations where a big lineup with Lamar at point would really work, but not as our normal starting lineup.
I think you are probably right about the defensive problems that Lamar would face guarding a point guard, but remember that it works both ways. Lamar would also give the other team a defensive matchup from hell.
I think Lamar is one of the most talented players in the league and expect him to have an All-Star season next year, but the point guard position really requires a player with a very high basketball IQ. Based on some of the late game decisions that Lamar has made, I think that is an area where he still has a lot to prove.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 01:02 PM
Mike T:
The "Big Dipper" is a subject on which you and I will never have a difference of opinion. Wilt was my first favorite NBA player as I was growing up and was actually the reason that I became a Lakers fan.
As a rebellous youth growing up in SoCal in the 60's, I was not a Lakers fan, even though I loved Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. Instead, I was a Wilt Chamberlain fan and my favorite NBA team was whatever team the "Big Dipper" played for.
I became a Chamberlain fan when Wilt was part of the San Francisco Warriors "Triple Towers" with Nate Thurman and Wayne Hightower. Because of Wilt, the San Francisco Warriors were my first favorite NBA team. I still think Wilt's Warriors team is the only NBA team that ever started three 7 footers.
When Wilt was traded to the Philadelphia 76ers, I switched allegiances and became a 76ers fan, rooting and defending Wilt in his legendary battles with the great Bill Russell. I still contend to this day that Wilt was the better player but that Russell had the better supporting cast, although the 1967 Phildadelphia 76ers team with Wilt, Lucius Jackson, Chet Walker, Hal Greer, Wali Jones, Billy Cunningham, and Matt Guokas was one of the greatest NBA teams ever.
What is not often remembered is that Wilt, asked by coach Alex Hannum to focus on defense and passing, actually averaged 7.8 assists per game to lead the NBA in assists that year. He proved to everyone that he could do whatever his coaches wanted him to do and that winning as a team player -- not just scoring points -- was what he valued and wanted most.
In 1968, when Wilt was traded to the Lakers, I finally became a Laker fan and have remained steadfast ever since. I almost died when we lost again to the Celtics by 2 points in the 1968-69 Finals and then again when Willis Reed rose from the dead to beat the Lakers in the 1969-70 Finals.
But then came the magical 1970-71 season, when Wilt's Lakers finally won it all and set the then regular season record for 69 wins. I share all of your great memories of listening to Chick as the Lakers rolled through the regular season and won an incredible 33 games in a row.
I loved that Laker team. At 35 years of age, Wilt totally dominated defensively and with Happy Hairston controlled the boards (19.2 rebounds per game). Jimmy McMillan was nails from the corner and Jerry West and Gail (My favorite all-time UCLA guard) Goodrich were one of the greatest backcourts of all time. What most bloggers don't know is that Pat Riley was a key Laker off the bench for that team.
I still believe that the 1970-71 Lakers were the greatest NBA basketball team ever. Better than Jordan's Bulls or the Kobe and Shaq Lakers.
Like you, I cried on the day that Wilt died and again when I heard Russell's comments. Few remember that Wilt and Bill became good friends years after their legendary battles in the paint for NBA championships.
I don't think any player could ever post more impressive all-around career numbers than the "Big Dipper" Over 14 seasons, Wilt averaged 30.1 points, 22.9 rebounds, and 4.4 assists per game.
The greatest NBA center to EVER play the game was Wilt Chamberlain.
Thanks for the memories, Mike.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 01:54 PM
Laker Tom,
Can you elaborate on what Riley did for that '70-'71 team?
dan
Posted by: dan the man aka smushcalade | July 30, 2006 at 02:10 PM
Roger B,
Ali and Liston fought twice. The first time Ali "shook up the world" as he put it, and honestly beat Liston. The 2nd fight was said to have been thrown because Liston had some type of mob issues. I don't know if it's true, but I do know Ali pleaded with Liston to get up after he knocked him down, because he knew he couldn't have hurt him that much with one blow.
Posted by: Weave-Man | July 30, 2006 at 02:40 PM
its sad how SACRAMENTO KINGS fans manage to come in to a laker blog and throw in their two cents. talking smack on kobe and everything else they can think of. maybe they should just keep quiet until they have something to compare their team against the lakers....such as a championship. pathetic.
Posted by: sixonezero | July 30, 2006 at 02:45 PM
I wish Rick Fox would come back. haha
I used to watch him play and laugh the whole time he was on the court. He had his long pantene proV hair and played like a girl (his jumpshot looked feminine, as well as his layup).
What I do miss about the guy is that he brings a veteran mind to the floor and plays nonstop hard defense. He was a big key to our 3peat years.
Posted by: derek | July 30, 2006 at 02:47 PM
dan the man aka smushcalade:
I was not sure if you were serious or joking, but here is the scoop on Riley. 1970-71 was Riley's first year with the Lakers after being drafted by and spending 3 years with the San Diego Rockets, who later became the Houston Rockets.
Riley made his usual minor contributions to the 1970-71 Lakers as he did each season of his undistinguished playing career. He averaged around 5 points, 1 rebound, and 1 assist per game but was considered to be a "cerebral" player and did play tough defense.
His greatest accomplishment during his Lakers playing days was to become one of Chick Hearn's favorite players. In 1977, a year after he retired from the NBA, he landed the job as Chick Hearn's color commentator for Laker simulcasts. After two years with Chick, he was hired as an assistant coach with the Lakers.
Finally, during the 1980-81 season when Magic Johnson led a mutiny against coach Paul Westhead, Riley got the biggest break of his career and took over as the Lakers' head coach. Strangely, there was never much publically said about the role that Riley played in getting Westhead fired. At any rate, Riley gave Magic the ball and the rest is history as the Showtime Lakers revitalized the NBA.
An ironic aside is that Stu Lantz was also drafted and played for the San Diego Rockets and then the Los Angeles Lakers before getting his current job as the late great Chick Hearn's color commentator. I have often thought that Stu would have also been an excellent candidate for an NBA coaching job.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 02:55 PM
Thank you LakerTom, sort of reminiscences of my youth. It's hard not to mention the sixties if you speak of Ali and Wilt. I wish I was a grown up and could enter the clubs I could enjoyed it more. Again thanks.
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 30, 2006 at 03:10 PM
Laker Tom,
Thanks, and I was not joking. The '70-'71 season was way before I was even born. Although I have heard many stories about that team, Rileys participation was still unclear to me. Thanks for the history 101...lol
dan
Posted by: dan the man aka smushcalade | July 30, 2006 at 03:15 PM
I remember Pat Riley from that Championship year. I remember both he and a guy named J.Q. Trapp as 2 of the bench players. Riley was in the regular rotation. I think we had a guy named Mel Counts, too. But Riley was a regular player coming off the bench.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | July 30, 2006 at 03:27 PM
Laker Tom,
Bill Russell might have some problems with your assertion that Wilt was the greatest. Mean, he does have like nine rings or something ridiculous like that.....he may not have had the stats, but I don't think he would trade a 100pt game for a ring....
Posted by: Elyse | July 30, 2006 at 03:31 PM
Actully the Laker team that won 33 in a row and a Championship was the 1971-72 Lakers. The streak was snapped by Kareem Abul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | July 30, 2006 at 03:31 PM
LakerTom,
Wow, you too, have vivid memory of the player & team movements in the sixties. Now what's the story on San Diego, how the name changed from Rockets to Clippers? How come Houston got the name Rockets? Now I know the Kings, it came from Kansas and moved to Sacto. What's the story why the word San Francisco was dropped from the Warriors and became Golden State instead?
Do we have a snapshot of Phil Jackson as NY Knicks? Who has a better PPG Phil or Riles?
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 30, 2006 at 03:34 PM
This topic is making me feel super young. Oh well, I guess a history lesson is pretty good...lol.
Posted by: Faith | July 30, 2006 at 03:35 PM
Here's something for Andrew Z,
http://pweb.netcom.com/~bjalas/basketball/bulls/72lakers.htm
1971-72 Los Angeles Lakers vs. 1995-96 Chicago Bulls
In favor of the Bulls:
Bulls Bio:
Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 1 (Jordan)
Players on "50 Greatest" list: 2 (Jordan, Pippen)
Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 3 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman)
Jordan & Harper have a quickness advantage in the backcourt which they can use to beat Jerry West & Gail Goodrich off the dribble. Pippen also has a quickness advantage at small forward vs Mcmillain. If Rodman & Longley can get rebounds they should be able to generate some fast break opportunities.
In favor of the Lakers
Lakers Bio:
Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 1 (Chamberlain)
Players on "50 Greatest" list: 2 (Chamberlain, West)
Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 5 (Chamberlain, Goodrich, Hairston, Mcmillan, West)
Jerry West(25.8ppg, 9.7apg) & Gail Goodrich(25.9ppg) actually have the scoring edge over Jordan & Harper in the backcourt. Wilt is still an incredible advantage in the paint(14.8ppg, 19.1rpg, 4.0apg) with Jim Mcmillan adding scoring punch (18.8ppg 6.5rpg) & "Happy" Harold Hairston(13.1ppg, 13.0rpg) as Wilt's sidekick make the Lakers very tough on the boards, not even the famed twin towers of Sampson/Olajuwon or Robinson/Duncan were able to grab as many rebounds as the Chaimberlain/Hairston duo did in the 1971-72 season.
SYNOPSIS
This match up poses all kinds of problems for the Bulls. Mr. Clutch Jerry West & Gail Goodrich pose a problem since they force Jordan & Harper to guard them the entire game: Leaving Wilt to either go one-on-one against Longley (can you say MISMATCH!) or feed the ball to Mcmillan when he gets double teamed by Pippen. Dennis Rodman may be in nowhere land: he not only is faced with the greatest rebounder of all time in Wilt, but Wilt also has a sidekick in Harold "Happy" Hairston who also knows how to grab rebounds, this duo can help the Lakers force the faster tempo that they are accustomed to. If Rodman double teams Wilt he will find Hairston under the Basket. After all Wilt is the only center to win the assist title (by the way, something Jordan couldn't do as a guard). No wonder these Lakers won 33 games in a row at one point, and they did not have the benefit of playing expansion teams when they did it.
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | July 30, 2006 at 03:52 PM
How about this one:
1986-87 Los Angeles Lakers vs. 1995-96 Chicago Bulls
In favor of the Bulls:
Bulls Bio:
Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 1 (Jordan)
Players on "50 Greatest" list: 2 (Jordan, Pippen)
Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 3 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman)
The Bulls have some good options on defense. They can move Scottie Pippen out to the perimeter to slow down Magic Johnson. This leaves Jordan down low trying to stop James Worthy. The Bulls also can bring in the potent scoring of Toni Kucoc off the bench-for whom the Lakers do not have a direct answer.
In favor of the Lakers:
Lakers Bio:
Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 3 (Abdul-Jabbar, Johnson, Worthy)
Players on "50 Greatest" list: 3 (Johnson, Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy)
Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 6 (Abdul-Jabbar, Cooper, Green, Johnson, Scott, Worthy)
Byron Scott becomes a very interesting factor. In 1986-87 Scott fired .436 from the original 3 point range. Scott can get open shots off of Kareem in the low post. Lets not forget the Playoff MVPs Magic Johnson('87) and James Worthy('88)-who BTW was the real star of the 1982 NCAA Champion North Carolina Tar Heels-not Michael Jordan. The Lakers bring in a strong bench with Defensive Player of the year Michael Cooper, center Mychal Thompson, and G/F Billy Thompson.
SYNOPSIS
This match up is plain and simple: If the Bulls "Big 4" shut down Johnson, Scott, Worthy and Green from the Lakers they can still go inside and get production from Kareem. The same cannot be said for the Bulls if the Laker's quartet hold their own against the Bulls "Big 4". Mychal Thompson is a big X factor for L.A..
Thompson was excited to be the final piece of the Laker's title puzzle as he brought in enthusiasm and intensity off the bench, similar to what Walton did for the Celtics in 1986. Toni Kucoc provides an extra offensive punch which the Bulls are going to need off their bench, but Steve Kerr's effectiveness will be limited when he has Cooper in his face.
If Byron Scott feasts off the open 3 pointers he gets when the Bulls double team the low post then the Lakers could turn this into a blowout.
LOL!
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | July 30, 2006 at 03:54 PM
The 71-72 Lakers championship team consisted of starters Goodrich, West, Hairston, McMillian and Wilt. Elgin retired just before the start of the 33 game winning streak, Keith Erickson was injured. The bench was Riley, Flynn Robinson, Leroy Ellis, John Q. Trapp and rookie Jim Cleamons. Mel Counts played twice for the Lakers but not on that team.
Interesting quote when McMillian replaced Elgin in the starting line-up. His response, "Yeah, it everyday you replace God." That team had the best first half in NBA history (38-3). Bill Sharman was the coach, KC Jones was the assistant and Lynn Shackleford was Chick's color man.
Posted by: rdlee | July 30, 2006 at 04:11 PM
Edwin:
The San Diego Rockets moved to Houston and kept the name, the Buffalo Braves moved to San Diego and became the Clippers. The Warriors moved from the Cow Palace in San Francisco to Oakland and changed their name to Golden State.
Posted by: rdlee | July 30, 2006 at 04:14 PM
Faith,
I feel the same way as you lol. I mean I do my research online and watch as many ESPN classic games as I can but it's not the same as actually having seen these guys play. It's times like these I wish I were 30 instead of 20 lol.
Posted by: Xodus | July 30, 2006 at 04:21 PM
Edwin:
Maybe you and Mike and me and the other "older" bloggers should receive some form of "Alumni Meritus" status on the blog for our ability to recount Laker history firsthand for the younger bloggers.
If anything, I hope our reminiscences will make younger Laker fans realize what a great and wonderous and rewarding experience and honor it has been for us being Laker fans. I hope they all take advantage of the ESPN Classic games that are rerun so they too could enjoy the West, Baylor, and Chamberlain Lakers as well as the Showtime and Kobe/Shaq dynasties. Sure beats being a Miami Heat or Cleveland Cavaliers fan.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 04:25 PM
Mike:
I agree the 71-72 Lakers were awesome and would have beaten anyone.
But they DID play expansion teams. Buffalo, Portland and Cleveland were in their second seasons and were horrible. I remember going to a game at the Forum against the Blazers and the Lakers won by 20 or so. Sidney Wicks was a rookie for Portland that year.
Posted by: rdlee | July 30, 2006 at 04:37 PM
I always find these arguments that compare players and teams from other eras very interesting. There's no way to prove who's truly right but it's fun to talk about.
About the 90's bulls I think it's pretty easy to see that their team wasn't nearly as good from top to bottom as the Hall of Fame teams that preceded them. But, I do think that they have a few things going for them that at least makes an argument for Greatest Team of All Time.
1. They had the greatest player of all time in Micheal Jordan. People will (and can) make arguments for others but Jordan was simply an anomaly. He was probably the most talented player ever as well as the most competitive.
2. They dominated their era like no other team since Russell's Celtics. If Jordan hadn't deluded himself into thinking he could play baseball they may have won 8 in row.
3. Scottie Pippen was one of the most versatile forwards of all time. He's overrated by some who felt he was the 2nd best player in the league and underrated by those who think his rings belong t MJ. How many forwards in league history had the basketball IQ to run the triangle offense, the skill to score 17-22 a night and the defensive skills to guard the opposing team's best perimeter scorer.
4. The Bulls are a grossly underrated defensive team. Everyone looks at Jordan's points but forget that the Bulls could flat-out shut you down. I don't have the numbers right in front of me but the Bulls were definitely one of the best defensive teams.
Posted by: Xodus | July 30, 2006 at 04:38 PM
Edwin:
I think that San Diego has the dubious honor of having lost two NBA franchises. Their first franchise was the San Diego Rockets, who were an NBA expansion team in 1967 and who later moved to Houston in 1971. Ironically, the very first player drafted by the San Diego Rockets was none other than Pat Riley.
San Diego's second franchise was the old Buffalo Braves, who were one of the ABA teams that joined the NBA in 1971 and who moved to San Diego in 1978 and became the San Diego Clippers and then moved again in 1984 to become the Los Angeles Clippers.
Pretty disappointing if you are a San Diego sports team as I don't think the NBA will ever give them another chance. They are also in danger of losing the San Diego Chargers football team because of stadium issues and there are rumors that they may be one of two NFL teams to eventually end up in LA -- actually, probably in Anaheim -- as the Los Angeles Chargers of Anaheim.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 04:38 PM
Mike:
Thanks for correcting me on the dates and for the "fantasy" Lakers vs Bulls teams. I happen to think that the Lakers would have won both games. The real contest would have been the Wilt/West Lakers vs. the Kareem/Magic Lakers. That would have been a virtual game for the centuries.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 04:40 PM
Edwin:
The Philadelphia Warriors moved to San Francisco in 1962 and became the San Francisco Warriors. In 1971, the team moved to Oakland and changed the name to the Golden State Warriors. They should probably change their name to the San Francisco Warriors of Oakland. It might change their luck.
It's ironic how things go around in circles. As I said in an earlier post, my first favorite team when I grew up in SoCal was the San Francisco Warriors because I was a big Wilt Chamberlain fan. Now, I live in the Bay area and have become a long-time die-hard Lakers fan, orginally because of Wilt, and just feel sorry for Warriors fans.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 04:48 PM
LakerTom:
The Buffalo Braves were NOT an ABA team that joined the NBA. They were an expansion team that joined the league in 1970. The only ABA teams to join the NBA were Indiana, San Antonio, Nets, and Nuggets.
Posted by: rdlee | July 30, 2006 at 05:00 PM
I'm really loving this conversation!!!! We go from talking about the greatest boxer to the greatest teams in NBA history. Like I said earlier it's always cool to sit down with friends (even if you can't see them lol) and counter points about different teams in different eras.
As far as the Bulls vs. the Lakers I would have to give the edge to the Lakers ( with Magic). I love those Bulls teams because they were the first team I loved, but the Lakers just had way too much fire power back then. I think Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman would have found a way to make a series close (maybe even win) but the Lake Show just had too many stars.
I think Bulls would have faired (don't know if I spelled that right) much better against the 71-72 Lakers though. The only clear advantage those Lakers had was at the center position. Wilt would have killed anyone the Bulls put in front of him, but the Bulls did have 3 centers so with all the different looks he would get defensively (not to mention the 18 fouls they would give to him) that might have slowed him down a little (very little). Yes, Jerry West is one of the best players ever but I don't think he would have had the quickness to guard Jordan, and on the other end of the floor I think Jordan could have slowed him down (I will never say you could shut down a HOF player). I don't claim to be a historian or an expert on those Laker teams so if you think I'm wrong let me know, and we can discuss it, but this is just one mans opinion.
Posted by: Weave-Man | July 30, 2006 at 05:23 PM
Edwin Gueco,
Right on!
Seriously, though, every Laker should train in martial arts during the off season, if only Tai Chi to coordinate their bodies into singular units.
Martial arts are the only "athletic" activity (at least in terms of internal arts) where a person continues to improve as they get older.
I would much rather fight a 250 pound 25 year old bruiser than an 80 year old Chinese master.
Kareem! Get 'em workin'!
GO LAKERS!
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | July 30, 2006 at 05:51 PM
Elders,(j/k)
Thanks for takin' us back to an era in which we can only imagine. Like Kobe says, the journey is the best part. And the journey the lakers organization has taken throughout the years has to be the greatest in sports history.
Your first hand knowledge of the old times more than offset your occasonial "senior momments"..hahaha..lol
dan
Posted by: dan the man aka smushcalade | July 30, 2006 at 05:57 PM
what up LAKERVILLE
Been busy with work lately - anyways, does anyone know where you can watch that MAKE A WISH segment of KOBE on ESPN?.. is it on YOU TUBE?.. please send the link.. thanks!!
LAKERS 4 LIFE!!!
Posted by: bUCKY | July 30, 2006 at 06:41 PM
Ive been saying from the beginning that the best FA to get thats not an FA would be Al Harrington. Im not a big fan of Gooden and he wont contribute enough to earn $10mil. On the other hand I think Al would contribute enough to earn the $10Mil. Ill have to play around with the RealGm Trade Checker to see who would be a good trade for the Lakers to get Al.
Posted by: Shady | July 30, 2006 at 06:58 PM
dan the man aka smushcalade:
Are you trying to tell me that my vision of Farmar starting as our point guard on opening night against the Suns is a "senior" moment?
I actually think your blind faith in Smush is "junior" naivety but let's see what happens. You should heed the "wisdom" of elders.
Who knows. Maybe Jordan will start and become Rookie of the year and Smush will come off the bench and become 6th man of the year.
It "is" fun being a Laker fan, isn't it?
***A Laker Fan Since 1968***
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 07:26 PM
rdlee:
Thanks. You are right. Are you another fan with long memories or just a young guy with google?
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 07:29 PM
Jon K:
I never took any martial arts training but Bruce Lee was always one of my greatest idols. I followed his career from the Green Hornet days until his untimely death and then followed his son Brandon's career until his son's similarly eerie death. His unique philosophies and martial arts styles were radically brilliant.
For a generation of Asians and Asian-Americans, Bruce represented respect and proof that heros came in all colors and sizes. He is right up there with Wilt as one of my all time heros. He opened the door to leading man stardom for the Jet Li's and Chow Yun-Fat's of today.
On a related note, I really like your idea of the Lakers hiring a martial arts expert to work with the players. I am a San Francisco 49ers fan and the 49ers for many years the 49ers had a martial arts expert, George Chung, who worked as an assistant coach helping the players improve their reflexes and hand/eye coordination.
Jerry Rice and Roger Craig used to rave about how much George had helped them become better players.
Great idea, Jon. I hope someone on the Lakers is watching the blog.
Tom
Posted by: LakerTom | July 30, 2006 at 07:49 PM
I might be old...but I will spank you with knowledge. LOL!
mike
Posted by: Michael Teniente | July 30, 2006 at 08:15 PM
Man I'm surprised by how many old (no offense guys lol) Laker fans there are on here. I'm surprised you guys don't call us whippersnappers and go off on long tangents that start with back in my day.... lol
Posted by: Xodus | July 30, 2006 at 09:08 PM
I did not post this:
DREW GOODEN TO LAKERS FOR MIHM AND D.GEORGE
http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_18278.shtml
Posted by: Lakofan | July 30, 2006 at 08:36 PM
-----------------------------------------------
I know is just a link, but someone used my nick, so I just wanted to make it clear that it was not me.
Posted by: lakofan | July 30, 2006 at 09:23 PM
I sure hope we don't get Gooden....not worth the jack. Al Harrington is another story, but looks like a done deal w/ Indy. Glad to see that Mitch is trying to get some value for D. George. If there's anyway we could get Bonzi and stick it back to the Queens, that would be AWESOME!! Could you imagine the match-ups when we play Cow Town??
Posted by: Fish Guy | July 30, 2006 at 09:24 PM
LOL Xodus, I'm telling you the blog got jipped (?) when it didn't win. Where else can you talk about the lakers and about history at the same time? This blog rocks!
P.S. "spank you with knowledge" LOL Mike T.
Posted by: Faith | July 30, 2006 at 09:30 PM
bucky,
I think you can watch it here: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/features/mywish/news/story?page=mywish/index
Posted by: Faith | July 30, 2006 at 09:41 PM
rdlee,
Jim Cleamons was a rookie with the lakers? The saga continues...
dan
Posted by: dan the man aka smushcalade | July 30, 2006 at 09:45 PM
Thanks for the valuable information coming from Rdlee and LakerTom. I think we should include Rdlee, Weaveman, Mike T. "never get old club,they just fade away"...haha!
That's why sometimes it's difficult to be overly optimistic when you have seen the best Lakers that played in 68-69, 69-70 and 70-71. They're almost there but always short of one game and a hoop!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 30, 2006 at 09:49 PM
lol This blog is definitely special. It certainly blows every other sports blog out of the water in my opinion.
Posted by: Xodus | July 30, 2006 at 10:12 PM
LakerTom, Mike T., Rdlee:
Thanks for your contributions about our glorious past. Don't hesitate to share here your memories! Our past builds our future.
What can you say guys about our last victories (99-00, 00-01 and 01-02) compare to what you've seen before?
GO
Posted by: Guy Owanlele | July 30, 2006 at 10:21 PM
Xodus,
You right with your observations it's difficult to compare one team from one era to another because you're placing too many assumptions that may be too subjective on the one making the comparison. It could have been a perfect setting if the Jordan Bulls, the Thomas Pistons joined the 80's with Bird Celtics and Magic Lakers. The Celts and Lakers played a fast pace as a team while the Bulls slowed down the game with the triangle setting up Jordan and Pippen and Detroit played purely dirty D. If the game is close, it's hard to win against the Pistons with enforcers like Mahorn, Laimbeer and Rodman,(Rodman is the mildest among the three) no inside games. (If Steve Nash was playing at that time, I'm pretty sure he'd think twice in coming in once he has been confronted by Mahorn and Laimbeer.)
PS. We are also thankful that we, the elders have the opportunity to exchange views with the young Laker fans and we learn a lot too, only sometimes we flinched when we're called jackass, idiots and stupid, couldn't avoid those senior moments. Haha!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 30, 2006 at 10:27 PM
Edwin,
If only scientists would shift their focus from cloning sheep to time travel we sports fans wouldn't have to argue amongst ourselves anymore we'd let the teams play it out! haha I think it may be time for me to go to bed. I'm on a Lakers Blog talking about time travel lol.
I've got to say to you "elders" that you sure are lucky to have been born when you were. You witnessed the Golden Era of basketball and had that followed up by the Jordan Era.
At 20 years old I've been watching basketball for about 12 years and seriously for about 10. So I came when Riley's Knicks were uglying the game up (I don't include the Heat because I grew up in Miami and those teams will always hold a special place in my heart lol) and watching the worst mini-dynasty ever in the Houston Rockets.
If it weren't for ESPN classic and the internet I'd be totally deprived.
BTW, I just thought I'd mention something else Bulls fans could make for the 90's Bulls. The Bulls did sweep the Pistons out of the playoffs in 91 who were the two time defending champions and ended the respective dynasties of the Lakers and Celts. I still think those teams were probably better but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Posted by: Xodus | July 30, 2006 at 11:00 PM
Just FYI, I'm as old as most of the elders here.
But I grew up in New Yawk watching arguably the greatest starting 5 ever: Willis Reed at center, future commisioner Dave Debushere and future senator Bill Bradley at forwards, Earl the Pearl Monroe and Walt (Clyde the Glide) Frazier at guards. Oh yeah and we also had a guy coming off the bench named Jackson. I think his first name was Phil or something...
Now that was a team!
Posted by: Jay Jay | July 31, 2006 at 12:05 AM
Michael Teniente and Faith,
You guys have been such faithful people to this blogring thank you..Thank you BK and AK...Thank you Kobe Bryant for being the 2nd best player in the league to Dwayne Wade #1...thanks Lamar Odom for being so predictable...thank you Luke Walton for all those good passes...thank you Smush for giving away the playoff games to Steve Nash...thank You Sasha Vujajic for being the worst player in the game...thanks Brian Cook for always chewing bubblegum at the games....Thanks Phil Jackson for being such an arrogant pompous...Thank you Kwame for being so stinking clumsy....Thank you Chris Mihm for getting injured....Thank Thank thank thank..there is sooooooooo much to be thankful for...we should be Thankful for the fact that we probably wont make the playoffs but we have a great team......ThNAK!!!!! YOU!!!! LAKERS!!!
Posted by: petey | July 31, 2006 at 12:11 AM
Jay Jay,
I heard some people comparing this years gaurd-filled knicks team with the old Frazier-Monroe Knicks. Did you hear any of that? I always knew it was just hype. Could you set it straight?
dan
Posted by: dan the man aka smushcalade | July 31, 2006 at 12:15 AM
dantheman-
Big difference:
The old Knick teams played TOGETHER! They relied on well-coached teamwork as much as their own physical abilities. Yeah they made spectacular dunks, but they made as many spectacular passes. I don't think any one of those guys was the #1 player at his position in the league, but as a TEAM they were unstoppable.
Today's Knicks are ...well, you know
Earl the Pearl and Clyde were into making each OTHER great, as opposed to the me-me-me mentality of Franchise and Starbury.
Posted by: Jay Jay | July 31, 2006 at 12:28 AM
Jay Jay,
Gosh, you too belong to that era, can't believe it? You just mentioned the names of the Laker killers. These were the ballet dancers in NBA, especially Earl the Pearl, you never know where he would be going. He and Elgin Baylor could go on ballroom dancing with their moves, tho' it todays rule it might be called as a "travelling violation". Then you mentioned Clyde Frazier whose face is covered w/ beard that meets his sideburns and Afro-look. He's the robber barron that killed the hopes of the Lakers in one of the most memorable playoffs. Lastly, No Laker fan of that era would ever forget what Willis Reed did. He played the championship w/ one leg while the other was induced with pain killers that would last the game. What a player! because of that fighting spirit, the Knicks rose from the dead beat the best of the Lakers. This was similar to Isaiah Thomas playoff game in the late eighties when he could hardly move his sprained foot but he just dragged it the whole game just to keep that spirit on.
Players nowadays like the Big Diesel, he'd take a leave of absence because of gout and another player due to ankle spurs. lol!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 31, 2006 at 12:48 AM
Just a historical note on the computerized Ali-Marciano fight, which I managed to see on TV in the late 60s or early 70s (probably with Howard Cosell announcing). The fight was scripted by a computer and the two men acted out the script, which naturally included Marciano getting knocked down and bloodied, only to get up again and pursue his opponent. The two fighters didn't know what the outcome chosen by the computer was and they filmed alternative endings. But the data processing had decided that Marciano would win, which was certainly at the time the most mythically if not politically correct solution (Ali was still seen as a rebellious, subversive "enfant terrible" and Marciano was the great white champion who retired undefeated in a sport -- heavyweight boxing -- that, since Joe Louis, was clearly dominated by blacks).
I remember Ali commenting on the simulation, saying that Marciano couldn't get to his head but his punches, delivered from his low-slung permanently crouching position, brutalized Ali's arms, weakening his own punching ability. After it was all abover, he didn't contest the outcome, especially since the people who ran the computer program officially announced the equivalent of a split decision (it could have gone either way, but it had to go one way, and Marciano's undefeated record needed to remain intact at a time when Ali was also undefeated, but was still fighting and therefore likely to lose at least once).
Another historical correction: Shakespeare and the Elizabethan/Stuart period were not part of the Middle Ages, but the Renaissance, which the pedants in English departments now call "early modern". Having lived through the 60s, mainly on or around the Sunset Strip in the midst of the hippie revolution, I can say that a lot of things were going on and much of it was exciting (or at least surprising and stimulating), but there was a lot of tragedy behind the fun (like the war in Vietnam and senseless flight into drugs). I would be loath to compare it to Shakespeare's England, which also had its tragic side -- with permanent religious war and government repression as well as outbreaks of plague -- but may just have been both more creative and more serious, although just as fun-loving.
It's easy to romanticize the 60s as well as to regret how lacking in daring the younger generations have been, but it was no paradise. As for music, yes, the creativity was not only real but sincere. It wasn't just about making money, it was about original expression in a dynamic social context, which included making strong statements about social values (which appears to be something of a lost art). I was a musician at the time and saw it all from inside. But almost all musicians struggled and the most successful went through tragic changes. In the 60s our generation of late teenagers really did live on the brink and often paid a steep price for it. We managed to take the system by surprise, but since then the system has adjusted and it seems to control everything (except foreign policy, where the trouble started back then as well).
Bu that shouldn't stop the Lakers from winning 55 next year.
Posted by: Tsphere | July 31, 2006 at 03:14 AM
Shaq should have boxed and knockedout Kobe Bryant and Mitch Kupchak. Maybe then the Lakers would have had a another Championship title by trading Kobe to Miami for the up and coming MEGA-SUPERSTAR Dwayne Wade.
Oh well......
Posted by: Steven | July 31, 2006 at 07:00 AM
I, too, am an "old" Lakers fan. My first real memory of the Lakers was the 64 foot shot that Jerry West made to tie a NBA Finals game against the Knicks. I was hooked ever since.
Though the Knicks were a great "team" they were a small team, with Willis Reed at 6'10" at center and Debusschere a 6'6" power forward. They were as good (or better) a passing team as the mid-late '70's Blazers teams with Walton, Bobby Gross, Twardzik, Lucas, Hollins, Davis. Because of their size I don't think they could compete with today's great teams.
As far as comparing Lakers teams from different eras, I think the Magic-Kareem-Worthy Showtime Lakers were the best. The 71-72 team thoroughly dominated but didn't win another championship (mostly because West and Chamberlain were getting up there in age). But they might have repeated if Hairston had not gotten injured. A little bit of trivia: Leroy Ellis, LA's backup center went from the team with the best record up to that time (69-13) to the team with the worst record of all-time (76ers 9-73). He was traded when Hairston went down for Bill Bridges.
Posted by: rdlee | July 31, 2006 at 07:59 AM
I have memories of Pat Riley entering games where the Lakers were out of timeouts and losing his contact lens on the floor, stopping the clock while everyone searched for it and giving aging Wilt a rest.
Posted by: TomDaniels | July 31, 2006 at 08:01 AM
Thank you Tsphere for your added insights, perhaps the word Middle Ages would be misnomer but for pseudo story teller like me anything before the 19th century is still M/A. Welcome to the AARP bloggers Haha!
Posted by: Edwin Gueco | July 31, 2006 at 08:18 AM
Edwin Gurerro
sorry that i couldnt get back to you sooner i answered your questions point by point below
--------------
1. I want to know whether the forthcoming FIBA games to be held in various places in Japan, are the japanese people excited about this international sports event?
while i am aware of the women's Asia soccer tournement currently being held and the Women's Volleyball tournement that opens later next month there is not much advertisement for the upcoming FIBA games. so basically there may yet be some public awareness but as for now id have to check the tv schedule guide to see when the games are
(or if theyll even be on tv)
2.Are there many Laker fans in your place?
if you mean where i live currently then no not really. . .if your referring to japan as a whole there might be, i havent really asked every single person that i meet if theyre a laker fan or not. . .heh i had one friend who was a sincere laker fan but he also sincerly acted as though he was black and going to make it in hollywood and is always saying like 'what up foo' and 'I'm from Cali'(hes actually a bulgarian adopted by americans missionaries who live here)
3.Which team do you think is the most popular NBA team in Japan?
whoever has currently won the championship. . .or if there is a japanese player on that team (ala Ichiro or Matsui of Baseball)
3.Lastly, who is the most popular Japanese b/ball
player?
id say it has to be yuta tabuse. although i havent seen him play (or know much about him) ive heard that hes a poor mans Nash, only shorter. . .and poorer
hope that clears things up
Posted by: joninjapan | July 31, 2006 at 08:27 AM
I'm loving this conversation. Keep it coming.
As a guy who grew up in the 80's, I sometimes forget that a lot of bloggers are so young, yet there are a lot of older bloggers too. It's interesting to hear all these different perspectives.
From my perspective, basketball was at its best during the eighties. I can still remember as a kid my pops telling me, "hey son, look at Magic!", and Magic would proceed to do some behind the back dribble or no-look pass and I literally thought it was Magic! The rest is history.
The battles with the Celtics, Pistons, and even the old school Jazz w/ Mark Eaton were battles for the ages. And probably the greatest thing of all was being privileged to listen to Chick Hearn through it all. Chick was the fastest talking announcer of all-time. Chick could tell you a players height/weight, college, stats, and tenure in the NBA, all while the play was still going! By the time I was 11, I knew almost every players stats just by listening to Chick. Needless to say, there was never any 'dead-air' when Chick was announcing a game.
And Ali would tear Wilt up. Ali would tear anyone up for that matter. From what I've seen, nobody could touch Ali during his day. And if he were to be around today, nobody would be able to touch him. He was just way too quick and smart for anyone.
Posted by: Rocky | July 31, 2006 at 08:55 AM