Talking With: Roland Lazenby, author of the "The Show" (Part 1)
For quite some time, more than a few readers have requested an interview with basketball journalist and frequent Lakers Blog poster Roland Lazenby. Well, request ye no more, folks. We IM'ed yesterday for around 90 minutes with Lazenby (whose books include Mad Game: The NBA Education of Kobe Bryant, Mindgames: Phil Jackson's Long Strange Journey, and Blood on the Horns: The Long Strange trip of Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls). His new book, The Show: The Inside Story of the Spectacular Los Angeles Lakers in the Words of Those Who Lived It, is a comprehensive history of the franchise from the days in Minneapolis to the second Phil Jackson era. It's a great read, guaranteed to satisfy even the most hardcore fan's purple and gold Jones. Here's the first part of our discussion.
Andrew Kamenetzky: How long did you spend researching and writing this book? What was the biggest challenge involved with writing a book spanning this much time and history?
Roland Lazenby: Well, I've spent about 18 years covering the NBA, so a lot of interviews I've done over the years. Always when I was doing projects, there were lots of extra things discussed in the interviews that never made it into the projects. So when I finally got a chance to do an oral history about the Lakers, I did new interviews, but I also went back and re-transcribed dozens of taped interviews, some of them from the late 80s and early 90s.
It was fun to realize the stuff I overlooked the first time. Like the time that Jerry West told me he thought Joe Dumars was better than Isaiah. I could have had a major story out of that one, but I let it slip by, only to discover it and other things when I gave the tape another listen.
AK: That is something of a conversation stopping statement, “Isaiah over Dumars.” I imagine it must be interesting to revisit what seemed innocuous at the time, but looking back on it becomes, "Wow!"
RL: Especially when it comes to West. He always drops bombshells in the midst of what he's saying in interviews. The L.A.media had long protected West. He never seemed to worry about what he was saying. During the 1999 series against San Antonio, I was interviewing him after practice in the Forum. I mentioned Phil Jackson, and he said, "F#@#, Phil Jackson!" I said, "Wait, you don't understand." He said, No, F@#@ Phil Jackson." A month later he hired Phil. When I reported what West had said in the Forum in my book on Kobe, some Laker officials got mad that I hadn't protected him.
As a journalist, it's not my job to protect Jerry West. He's perfectly capable of protecting himself. It's my job to get the best information I can for Laker fans, because they're the ones spending their time and money following the team.
AK: I agree. These guys have been around long enough. They know the drill when it comes to the media. So many of the interviews you needed were already on hand. But it still must have been a pretty big undertaking editing everything into a cohesive narrative.
RL: It was a big undertaking, followed by a huge battle with my publisher. I ended up cutting out about 200 pages, some of which needed cutting. But there was a lot of stuff, tons of interviews that needed to stay. At the time you're arguing, you're so close to the book you think you know it all. After you look at it, you say, “They were pretty smart to cut that down… But why didn't they leave that good stuff there?” There are so many elements to the Lakers story, so many layers of the truth. Especially with a guy like Phil Jackson. Or Jerry West.
Brian Kamenetzky: The Lakers have had so many personalities like that. Mega-star types, both on the court and behind the bench. Is that at least one reason why you can take their franchise, from start to finish, and get into the kind of depth you did... and still make it interesting?
RL: Yes, because it's Hollywood, because the personalities are so big. Even the little things they do can be major productions. It is the Show, the major production, with all the attendant complications. That's why we care. The drama on the court is big. Sometimes the drama off the court is bigger. As I say at the end of the book, it's a tragedy of postmodern basketball that Shaq and Kobe couldn't see how important they were to each other. I don't think that's an overstatement.
BK: No disagreement here. How did the rift between the two of them compare to the others you outline in the book? Pollard/Mikan, Kareem/Magic, etc.? How much different would those relationships have been in today's 24/7 sensationalized media culture?
RL: No question those earlier conflicts would have been much bigger. (Lakers Public Relations executive director) John Black got really mad at me in 1999 when I explained in Mad Game the level of conflict between Shaq and Kobe. He said I damaged the club. But here was this very talented Lakers team that would show flashes of brilliance, and then play just terribly. No one would say why they were playing so badly. It was because of their chemistry. I thought Laker fans had the right to know. I still do.
The Lakers have their ways of keeping a pretty good grip on local media. Once I wrote about it, it became easier for others to write about it. And obviously it got to the point that the media made much of it. But that's because Shaq and Kobe aired their opinions repeatedly in the media. Too bad Phil Jackson didn't keep George Mumford, the psychologist, around. I thought they could have ridden through it, except for this thing of Shaq wanting his megabucks.
BK: Did that sort of thing- players and coaches using the media to the extent that they do now- sometimes to fight with each other, sometimes to put seeds in the minds of opponents, etc.- happen back then? I'd imagine people still used reporters to deliver messages. It just feels different, even for the two of us, who can only go back to the 80s, really.
RL: There were so many fewer outlets then. More papers but still fewer outlets. Jerry West complained that Jack Kent Cook had columnist Melvin Durslag to write negative things about certain players whenever he wanted. Those tactics were obviously available then. The options weren't as delicious or tempting, as they are with a Karl Rove type player like Phil Jackson, who has delighted in media games over the course of his career.
I should add that the conflicts between Kareem and Magic were kept well under wraps, mainly because Kareem and Magic were too professional to get into it publicly. They found a way to co-exist. I think Shaq was guilty of a certain lack of professionalism. From the early days, he kept slipping little jabs in at Kobe.
BK: So it's as much on the players as it is on reporters to respect some sort of boundaries (if any exist anymore)?
RL: I think it's more on the players (and coaches). Everyone wants to blame the media, but the media are an empty vessel. The big winners in post-modern culture, a Karl Rove, knows how to fill that vessel, to play the media. Jordan was very good at it. So was Phil. Shaq could play games, but a lot of his was petty sniping that was purely unprofessional. Childish, really. Imagine the Lakers today if Shaq had chosen a different tactic to deal with Kobe.
As Tex Winter points out, Kobe took those tactics from Phil and Shaq for a long time before he finally began lashing out during the 2003-04 season. Then Phil very smartly used his lashing out against him, never mind the fact that Kobe had spent several years trying to be the professional one, letting his play do the talking.
BK: You don't think Kobe's personality had anything to do with it? There are plenty of people who believe that his attitude, generally perceived as aloof, had a lot to do with the troubles he had, not just with Shaq, but with the rest of the locker room.
AK: Not to mention play on the court some have perceived as selfish...
RL: Of course Kobe wasn't guilt-free. He was, however, a 17-year-old kid. Shaq led the rest of the locker room. He was the big guy in the school house. Kobe came in full of ambition, willing to work hard. Very much an alpha male even at that age. His work ethic didn't match the older players around him. As Derek Fisher explained to me, we should have had Kobe's work ethic, we should have worked that hard. Kobe set a tone that wasn't in synch with the team.
On the court Del Harris had no real offensive structure or plan, other than to get the ball into Shaq and mostly have everyone spaced around him. His practices were hardly greatly organized affairs. Don't get me wrong. Del Harris is a fine coach. The business as usual in pro basketball wasn't ready to deal with players as young as Kobe, much in need of guidance. So the circumstances play a role in that. My point, though, is that Kobe wasn't going public with some petty beef.
RL: The reality is that the Lakers were one good rebounder away from winning it all in ‘04 and keeping it all together. If they had better relationships, they would have survived perhaps. But Shaq was really pushing for a huge pay raise that simply strapped the Lakers, which is a small organization. Phil wanted more power, more say so. Kobe had always been their foil, the representative of how Jerry Buss envisioned basketball. Shaq pushed his agenda, Phil pushed his, and Kobe simply wanted out. He was fed up. He was fed up with all the pettiness and criticism and games. People say that Kobe has always studied and created his image. I think in most ways, he's been pretty naive about his image. All this Shaq and Phil stuff is minor compared with Eagle and all that. That's what put Kobe on a lot of people's hate list. I spent the past two days rereading The Last Season, and Phil really smeared Kobein that book at a time when he was facing a lot of challenges. Very sanctimonious stuff, really.
AK: It's interesting you bring up Shaq and money, because I've always thought Shaq actually could have accepted it eventually becoming "Kobe's team," with the offense revolving around Kobe. But he never could have dealt with Kobe making more money than him, which I believe would have been the case if he didn't get the extension he wanted and Kobe got a max deal. In Miami, at least with my understanding of the new CBA, Shaq can take a "pay cut," but still out-earn a Wade max deal, post-CBA. It may become "Wade's team," but Shaq is still the big man when it comes to dollars. I don't think the potential money discrepancy between Shaq and Kobe was the prime reason he wouldn't renegotiate, but a tipping point. Any validity to that theory?
RL: Yes, the hard part in all of this is that Shaq, despite his immaturity, is a great guy, a good person, a funny and likeable guy. Without Jerry West, he felt he had no protector in the organization. He wasn't close to Jerry Buss. So he became fearful and aggressive over his future. Again, the blame goes back to Phil Jackson, because he chased West off. They both might try to deny this now, but it is true. I've reported it with attribution. Phil knew what would drive West out and he took those steps.
Phil and West didn't trust each other. I got in more trouble for reporting that Phil asked West out of the locker room during that 2000 playoff series with Portland. But it happened. I reported it with attribution. It was the truth. Phil knew when he did it that it would drive West crazy and out of the organization. I took a lot of heat for reporting that. I still do take that heat. But it's true and it was a huge factor in the breakup. Before Shaq and Kobe coexisted, Phil and Jerry had to coexist.
When one didn't happen, the other relationship seemed guaranteed to fail. A tragedy for Lakers fans, a tragedy for Phil (although I don't think he thought so) because he coached them to one short of the all-time record for titles. And a tragedy for West, because he put them together, and now he's exiled in Memphis, a stranger in a stranger land.
AK: Does that reflect Phil being more a "Shaq guy," and West more of a "Kobe guy?"
RL: West was for both of those guys, and they knew it. Why shouldn't he have been? They were all on the same team. Phil was definitely not a Kobe guy for his first tenure in LA. The things he did to undermine Kobe we only know a fraction of that story. In Phil's defense, Kobe wasn't the easiest situation for any coach. But Phil was wrong about Kobe, or so he seems to admit now. He still won't do everything for him in the triangle that he did for MJ.
Kobe, though, isn't a complainer. As Tex told me yesterday afternoon before he headed up to Portland to meet with the team, Kobe wants one thing as his top priority: To Win. He shoots as much as he does, Tex says, because he believes right now that that's the best way for the team to win. And it is.
BK: So much energy in LA now is spent trying to assign blame for the breakup of the team. What will it take to move past it? Can lessons be learned from how previous championship runs ended?
RL: Doing fewer interviews like this. Ha. Just kidding. I think the loss is great, so the healing takes a while. Plus it's one of those debates for the ages. I think Kobe is settling a bit of it as we speak. But it will never be put to rest unless he leads the Lakers to a championship or two. Shaq carries a similar burden in Miami, but it's nowhere near the load that Kobe faces in L.A. In the minds of many, they may come to share that spoiled, temperamental space together. These things tend to run on for years.
I've written a lot of sports history, which means calling up a lot of old guys years after their careers are over. It's amazing how many of them sit around and stew once they’re out of the spotlight, over things that happened long ago that nobody cares about or even remembers any more. But a lot of guys never let those conflicts go. If they don't let them go, and Shaq clearly isn't ready to put it behind him, then the fans won't either.
Dear Kobe,
I am the big daddy Shaquille O'neal! I'm in the house Can hear me WHAT? WHAT? Let's start off with, Kobe I hate you. You make me so mad. Kobe you are selfish I hate you. You are not the leader of the Lakers. I am. Kobe, you will never be as good as me. I am Wilt Chamberlain. Kobe you are not Jordan. You are Kobe Bryant, the selfish player that was in my team. You haven't learned anything when I left. You are still putting up 30+ shots. Kobe, I hate you. You are a ball hogger.
,Shaquille O'neal
Posted by: Shaquille O'neal | January 11, 2006 at 02:36 PM
My Prediction on Kobe and the Lakers against the Blazers tonight.
Kobe Bryant will end up with 15 points 3 rebounds 2 assist 8 Turnovers. 3 of 41 Field Goal Attempts. and the lakers will lose 107-70.
Once again I have to say
Kobe Sucks!
Posted by: The Official Number 1 Kobe Hater! | January 11, 2006 at 02:56 PM
haha I hate you Shaq! Go eat more Cheese Burgers!
Visit Burger King more will you?
Kobe sucks? What the @#$@#. You must be on drugs. The official number 1 Kobe hater! man you need to lay off the drugs.
Posted by: Kevin Nguyen | January 11, 2006 at 03:00 PM
Why on earth would Phil tell West to leave the locker room? How can someone not respect Jerry West? Anyone know the root cause of their disrespect for each other?
Posted by: Zen | January 11, 2006 at 03:03 PM
Ak/Bk
Or anyone else, who was the "dumb" Washington Times columnist that wrote "Gilbert Arenas is no Kobe Bryant"
"Selfishness begets selfishness," center Brendan Haywood said. "When one guy doesn't make the extra pass, then the next guy starts thinking, 'Well, I'm not sure when my time's going to come,' so he doesn't make the extra pass. It's just about being a team right now.
-Copyright 2005 Associated Press in today's CNNSI.com
Posted by: The In-Crowd | January 11, 2006 at 03:09 PM
Great interview, I agree with the perception on both Shaq and Kobe.
Thank you
I can't wait for the second part of the interview.
Posted by: lakofan | January 11, 2006 at 03:12 PM
K Brothers,
You guys need to go back and clean up the interview a little bit. It doesn't flow properly in certain sections.
Otherwise, thanks for interviewing my hero. I really appreciate it. Roland is the man and he always communicates with a beautiful clarity that puts all the madness into a wonderful simply context.
Thanks again for the interview.
Keep 'em comin'!
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 11, 2006 at 03:20 PM
Zen,
Yeah! Why wouldn't Phil let Jerry into the locker room? West deserves respect at all times.
Why don't they like each other?
Roland,
I'm getting the impression that Phil isn't that great a guy, but listening to him in interviews and on his radio program, I've always come to the conclusion that this is an extremely intelligent, wise individual. Phil's long been the kind of guy I'd like to sit down with, have a beer, and have long conversation about basketball and kite flying (or whatever). I don't think I've come to the wrong conclusion.
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 11, 2006 at 03:23 PM
Was that really Shaq who worte that stupid thing back up there? I don't think so, cause Shaq wouldn't even mention Kobe's name! Get outta here you Laker Hater!
Posted by: arthas (Tom Brady) | January 11, 2006 at 03:24 PM
Jon K,
Yeah, we've had a real problem transferring the text from the IM to the blog itself. Not sure why, but it's been frustrating, to say the least. Obviously, we have no idea how to fix it. Sorry if it makes things a little more difficult to read, but we wanted to get the interview up, as everyone's been asking for it. We'll try to remedy everything for Part II.
Thanks,
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | January 11, 2006 at 03:31 PM
OK people, I want you all to know a few basic definitions of internet chat.
Troll- Someone who comes into forums, or chatrooms, and posts statements specifically designed to cause a n uproar resulting in a flame war.
How do you stop Trolls?
Stop answering them. They will get no thrill out of their game as long as we don't answer. It's as simple as that.
PS
And Remember...DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!
Posted by: Revgen | January 11, 2006 at 03:32 PM
Once again K-Bros. excellent interview.
Mr. Roland Lazenby...is there any chance you can propose to Kobe that he should start using "THE 8th WONDER" nickname. Alot of the fellow bloggers would agree that the name fits appropiately. Also the information you post in this blog and what you said in the interview is what a fan like me looks for when reading articles...THE TRUTH.
I could see the headlines tomorrow..."KOBE BLAZES,SCORES 80 POINTS!!!"
VIVALOSLAKERS!!!
Posted by: VIVALOSLAKERS | January 11, 2006 at 03:39 PM
Thanks for the interview fellas. It really sheds some light on a lot of questions I had. Lookin' forward to part 2. GO LAKERS!!!
Posted by: Lakerfanfromafar | January 11, 2006 at 03:44 PM
Its funny how the so called Laker haters talk all this smack about LA, Kobe, and the team, but like a bad song on the radio you seem to know all the words to it. They watch every game, they know every stat and they loath to be in LA and watch a Laker game live. I am willing to bet they will be watching the game just like us to see if Kobe will break Wilts record. Its humorous you even give these sucka's the time of day. Just my two cents!
Go Lakers!!!
Posted by: LakerFan4life | January 11, 2006 at 03:58 PM
Wow Wow Wow.
Roland..as has been mentioned, your insight is so welcome. Absolutely refreshing. How could we ever get this kind of insight otherwise! The best part is that you're fair about it. As much as we go over the top with our praise, you know where to cut it.
I really appreciate the fact that you spell out Kobe's maturity against a conniving Phil and a egotistical Shaq. Phil drove West out!? I should've known..more reason for me to dislike the M'fer. that's right. &#*$ Phil Jackson!
By the way, have you ever sat down and talked to Kobe about your viewpoint concerning his maturity versus the rest of the team's crowding up against him? As much as he plays the strong silent type, I think it would be really good for him to hear it. Tell him he has a lot of fans who know it. Thanks for the interview K bros. Thanks for being a Laker fan Roland!
Posted by: S.Tan | January 11, 2006 at 03:58 PM
finally, someone giving some clarity to kobe-shaq feud. untill now, kobe's been blamed for everything and many people believed so. give a guy a break and realize that it takes two to tango.
Posted by: givekobeabreak | January 11, 2006 at 04:04 PM
It seems odd to me that Pollard/Mikan, Kareem/Magic, and Shaq/Kobe all had significant interpersonal issues, as well as multiple championships.
As I understand it, Baylor and West got along great and are still close friends. Two phenomenal talents! What kept them from winning championships? Is interpersonal tension/competition more valuable then we as fans are willing to acknowledge?
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 11, 2006 at 04:08 PM
I am extremely impressed with this interview.
Well done!
This needs to be seen by every sportswriter and pundit who continue to assign Kobe the lions share of the blame in the breakup of that team.
It is so refreshing to see that an expert in the Lakers, one who has done the hard work and research, has come to the same conclusion that I had as a longtime Laker fan.
Posted by: Dave Rosenzweig | January 11, 2006 at 04:11 PM
Phil is a very complex person, capable of incredible insight and full of humanity, also capable of tremendous pettiness and huge surges of ego. Also capable of great deviousness. And, as those who have worked with him have explained to me in interview after interview, an amazing manipulator (which you better be if you want to be a great coach). The things he did to some of his underlings during his Chicago days are hard to believe, because the way he handled his teams is clearly something special. Like I said, a very complex person. Good and bad angels at work with that guy, big time.
He didn't want to share the situation with Jerry West (they've had conflict that goes way back; I explained a lot of this in Mindgames). He knew that West's ego wouldn't be able to stand the affront of being asked out of the locker room. "Could you step outside a minute, Jerry? We've got some team issues here to talk about." The implication being that the Logo wasn't part of the team.
By summer, when West still hadn't announced his resignation, Phil went ahead and confirmed it to broadcaster Larry Burnett.
As for his dealings with Kobe, think of all the things he wrote in The Last Season that Kobe did. Funny, but Shaq did some outrageous things over the spring of 2004. Phil never wrote about it.
In summary, Phil's one of, if not the, greatest coach of all time. He's still far from perfect.
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 04:16 PM
I like the part about where Tex Winter says Kobe's top priority is to win. I don't think there was ever a doubt in my mind what his top priority is. What I don't understand is how people can say he only cares about scoring. Great interview with Roland, I've read some of his comments on this blog and on the ocregister. I think he has great insight with the Lakers, and would like him to comment more. KOOOOOOBE FEEEELING YOU!
Posted by: Frustrated Laker Fan | January 11, 2006 at 04:19 PM
Very nice interview. Roland brought up some points that scream "read my book for sources!" Roland...you just sold another one.
I find it hilarious that people waste their time trying to speak for 'Shaq' or make ridiculous predictions as a 'Laker Hater'. Come on...you can't even put a real name or email address. Admittedly, 'Maleke' is a handle, but you can always email comments. Using fake names (or changing them) must mean you cannot develop logical arguments behind the Kobe-bashing rhetoric. The funny thing is, we don't hear any Kobe-bashing after a win (it's been quiet from 'Clipper The Great' lately) but it sure pours on after a loss.
Either way, keep the trash talking alive. It only makes Kobe that much greater!! Everybody loves to see stars face adversity and SUCCEED!
Posted by: Maleke | January 11, 2006 at 04:19 PM
GO LAKERS GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
I HOPE TO SEE SO INTERESTING COMMENTS ON TONIGHT.
SEE YOU GUYS IN A COUPLE OF HOURS.
LAKER FAN IN ILLINOS
Posted by: babyg | January 11, 2006 at 04:33 PM
Honestly, it seems Lazenby is relying on his own "intuition" about Phil's motives. He's assuming he knows why Phil does what he does (something someone outside of you can never really know), and based upon his own "feeling" about it, is now running around and telling people these things as facts. I think that's jacked up. He should say, "I think this why Phil did things a certain way...", but not report it as "this is fact." Plus, it's not as though Phil confides in Lazenby. This is the same bloke who wrote a scathing book about Phil some 10 years ago. They're not friends. Yet he knows Phil so very well that he can deduce for us all why Phil asked for privacy in the locker room during a heated play-off game? It isn't even possible that it's because Phil wanted privacy with his players? Instead, Phil was thinking about Jerry West and not the playoffs he was in the middle of at that time?
Then when I start analyzing the situation further, I can't help but remember that Phil didn't even really know Jerry West. He hadn't been here that long. He didn't spend time with Jerry West. They didn't hang out or get to know each other personally. They didn't talk to each other. With that as a basis, how can anyone just accept that despite not knowing him, Phil somehow intuited what would drive Jerry West to leave and then proceeded do plan how to do just that. Then you add that Lazenby is intuiting that he knows that Phil intuited this about West, and it all sounds ridiculous. Seriously, if I don't know you, how the hel can I presume to tell the world what motivates you to do the things you do? Phil is an odd egg. He does things his way. He believes in those things. How can anyone who doesn't know him, possibly conclude as fact WHY...?
Some of you will automatically accept what you're being told as the absolute truth. Heck, someone has to be blamed for West leaving and we do LOVE to blame people around here. Some of you will question why Lazenby is saying he knows Phil's motives. Some of you will notice that everything Lazenby writes about Phil Jackson, always seems to portray him as this sort of devil or horrible human being... Having seen everyone and their mother do this very same thing to Kobe, and knowing how much that bothers me (Kobe being bashed by people's opinions that others hear and just accept as facts), I'm not going to be a hypocrite and just turn around and do the same thing to Phil.
Posted by: LakerJam | January 11, 2006 at 04:34 PM
I like the interview so far, and I can't wait for the next part. I love Phil Jackson. The first basketball team I ever knew and loved was the Chicago Bulls, so my love for Phil is immense. Now that I've said that I think he was dead wrong his first go around with the Lake Show. 1) you don't disrespect Mr. Logo. He built the team and kept everything going smoothly so they could win those championships. 2) you have one of the best young talents to come along in years and you play mind games with him, and try to undermine him at every turn?!! Like I said, I love Phil, but I love Kobe more.
When I first saw him I just knew he would be great. The kid(he's older than me) did things on the court that no 17 year old kid should have been able to do, he would dunk on anybody, and had a crossover that would make you cry if he caught you with it. Coming up as a young baller and seeing that made me love him.
He just had a swagger about him that said I'm great and I'm gonna be great in this league and there's nothing anyone can do to stop me.
Posted by: Asaad Weaver | January 11, 2006 at 04:55 PM
As I recall Jerry West was threating to retire a number of years prior to the 2000 season. It seemed year after year there were those reports. But this is the first time Ive heard That Jerry and Phil didnt like each other. What I want to know is who runs this organization anyways? Where was Dr. Buss while all this mess between Phil and Jerry was going on? Did Dr. Buss side with Phil over West? Are you sure were not talking about a bunch of 4th graders arguing over a kickball game than a multi billion dollar organization? I am just amazed at the child like qualitys each of these "Multi Millionaires" possess. Its incredible to tell you the truth. maybe the NBA should stand for NO BABYS ALLOWED! Unbelieveable!
Great Job Guys AK BK
Lanzby as always your the best!
Posted by: GMac | January 11, 2006 at 05:03 PM
Great interview. Yes I'm curious as well as to why Phil kicked Jerry out of the locker room. Or, I guess RL has already stated his speculation as to why Phil did that...
But certainly Phil didn't say, "Jerry, I'm kicking you out of the locker room because it will eventually help cause you to leave the Lakers organization." Phil would have given a much more publicly acceptable explanation. Perhaps Phil wanted to make sure that Phil alone commanded the team's entire focus during halftime? Maybe we find that out in part 2 of the interview?
Posted by: Guity | January 11, 2006 at 05:10 PM
Big Baby Shaq,
Shaq you suck.....Shut up already. I heard your Fat A$$ crying again about not getting enough touches on Game 7 against Detroit...Big Ben, a true warrior, laid a smack on your Big Fatty. WOW!!! Superman and Flash. You still watch cartoons at your age? Grow up already.
Oh yeah, by the time you retire ME and TD will have more rings than your Fat A$$. Wade will soon find out.
On contrary, I wouldn't mind having you back here. Maybe I'll ask Mr. Buss to trade Slava for you. haha....
Posted by: kobe2shaq | January 11, 2006 at 05:13 PM
MVP!
i have a question. remember when the lakers were dominating the league 2000-2003? shaq only recieved 1 mvp. neither he nor kobe got it because the argument was they cancelled each other out. they said the MVP was awarded to the player who made the most impact to their team. take that player out of the equation, and the team would suffer greatly. shaq only got 1 because if he was to go down, kobe would be there to pick up the slack.
now that shaq is gone...
can anybody name another player who carries as much or more responsibilities to their respective teams than kobe?
take away shaq, you have wade.
take away duncan, you have parker and ginoboli.
take away nash, you have amare and marion (vice versa)
take away lebron, you have big z and hughes.
take away iverson, you have cwebb.
take away dirk, you have josh howard and daniels.
take away tmac, you have yao.
take away brand, you have maggette.
cant take anyone away from detroit, cuz thats a TEAM, right there. as much as i hate detroit, no one on that team will get mvp.
take away kobe, and you have lamar??? i like lamar, but hes not even an all-star. you cannot count on lamar to put up 20-10. i dont even remember the last time he put up 30. lamar is a complementary player at best while many of the 2nd options on some of these teams can be 1st options.
this should be the year kobe gets his MVP...
cuz no ONE player matters more to their team than no.8 this year. am i right?????
Posted by: Lefty | January 11, 2006 at 05:13 PM
That was a nice interview. Answered some questions during the Shag-Kobe rift a few years back.
Shaq, as likeable of a personality he's got, is one big immature baby. He better hope Wade's as good as Kobe and then some if he wants another ring. My guess is that he'll find someone to blame other than himself when they don't win championships.
Posted by: FH36 | January 11, 2006 at 05:28 PM
As far as conflict among teammates, often the internal competition within a team can be stronger than the external competition with other teams and opponents. Often teammates are so focused on outscoring each other they won't pass each other the ball, never mind that not passing means their team will lose. Plus players compete for endorsement deals and contracts. It's human nature to be envious. And when they win, it always comes down to who gets the credit. Shaq said as much in the interviews for The Show.
Like Tex said about Shaq and Kobe, they played a lot of great ball together. They won three championships together. Shaq threw Kobe the ball, and Kobe threw Shaq the ball. But there was always that attitude.
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 05:29 PM
Good Interview AK!! KEEP IT UP!!!
Just live those 2 haters alone guys...maybe they're just 16-17 year olds kids who doesn't know what the real score is. =)
A bunch of loners...kids have enough money to buy a PC and bashing our BLOG for fun. This guys are just stuck in their tinni winni rooms and play their videogames and doesnt' have a single frined in their lives...i pitty you guys
Doesn't know the word "RESPECT", "DECENCY", "POLITENESS".
Posted by: Digtaz | January 11, 2006 at 05:39 PM
First, my work is based on interviews on sources. It's an oral history. The book I wrote about Phil was not 10 years ago, it was 2001. A variety of people have acknowledged the problems between West and Phil, including my reporting of West's comments.
Another thing to remember, Jerry Krause worked for the Lakers as a scout before he became Chicago GM. He and Jerry West were very close, and Krause used to spend a lot of time on the phone with West fussing about Jackson and his ways (Krause was no saint either).
Phil Jackson has done great things as a coach. He's also done things that he'd rather not be reported. We all have done things we're not proud of. Phil inspires some criticism because of his self-righteous countenance and posturing.
Look around, Phil is not liked around the league. He has a huge ego.
But what great coach doesn't? He has done a fantastic coaching job this season, as opposed to the absolutely horrible job he did in 2004. He did such a horrible job that his team returned yet again to the NBA Finals.
He's a great coach.
It's not my job to praise Phil or suck up to him. It's my job to report him as he is, per the things, good and bad, that he has done.
I haven't even gotten into his low dealings with Johnny Bach, his longtime assistant coach.
Phil is no saint. He's a friggin' basketball coach, and perhaps the best ever.
Is he capable of dirty tricks and low behavior?
You betcha.
So was Red Auerbach. Probably still is, except he's an endearing 88.
Some fans remind me of that line from Jack Nicholson.
They can't handle the truth. It's all about shades of gray, not black and white. It's not Phil's great. Phil's terrible. It's that he's a human, a very talented human, who has done this and this.
My details are not based on some distant impression. They're based on hundreds of hours of interviews and tons of work.
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 05:45 PM
I have watched the Lakers, as well as other NBA teams, since 1961 or '62, so I have seen a lot of players. I doubt that it was really Shaq who wrote here earlier, but since he keeps calling himself MDE, most dominant ever, implying that he's the best center who ever played the game, I feel compelled to name a few centers who I think were better than him, some of them one hell of a lot better. For instance, I don't think Shaq could carry Bill Russell's (the best player ever in my book) shoes, and Shaq's very foolish if he thinks he's in the same league as him. Wilt was also a far greater player than Shaq, easily. Both of these guys were more skillful and played with far greater sustained intensity (whining doesn't count).
There are 3 or 4 other players who I think were better than Shaq at his position. How about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? You could always rely on him to play a great game, even in his late thirties. Someone who's really overlooked but was a great center was Dave Cowens of the 70s Celtics: man, was that guy intense, he ALWAYS brought his A game. Moses Malone did not have a real long shelf life, but I think at the top of his game he was better, and more dominating, than Shaq. Someone else who had his career cut short by a terrible knee injury, was Willis Reed, of the late '60s and early '70s Knicks. In my book, all of these guys were better than Shaq, and none of them was as publicly self-absorbed (maybe that's why he likes L.A. so much, it's a fashion statement over here) in any way, shape or form.
One other player who could be considered an equal would be Akeem Olajuwon of the Rockets.
And how about George Mikan? He put the NBA on the map. I never saw him play a game so I won't make a comparison.
It's funny, but people who haven't seen the great players of the past tend to think that the best they see today is actually the best of all time when they really don't have nearly enough data to make an informed judgment.
Posted by: LongtimeLakerfan | January 11, 2006 at 05:50 PM
Guity,
Yes, as Eddie Jones explained to me in an on the record interview at the time, the Lakers had always been a problem for coaches because Jerry West was in the players' ears. Eddie is close to West, but he said it needed to be done. Del Harris in his interview for The Show said it was always a problem that it was not his team but Jerry West's.
Still, Harris said, he'd rather have Jerry West there, than not have him.
Phil perceived it as a problem, no question. What coach wouldn't?
These are complex, successful people, as I said before. But it's a fascinating part of the story that no one has ever really delved into. Some people I interviewed were not willing to talk about it.
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 05:52 PM
Dear Kobe,
The big daddy Diesel is in town again, I'm back. Life is good without you Kobe. I hate you. I'm enjoying the waves in florida, you big bone head. Kobe, you will not succeed without me as the Big Daddy. Kobe tell Phil Jackson that he knows he loved me more than you. Kobe listen, I hate you. Kobe, your greatness can never be compared to me. I am Superman and I am unstoppable. Don't make me go Shaq-Fu on you. Im the greatest center, greater than Wilt Chamberlain. Kobe, this year, when the Miami Heat and I make it to the Finals and win it, I will stare at your baby Lakers and dedicated my smirk to you. Shaq-Fu !
,Shaquille O'Neal
Posted by: Shaquille O'Neal | January 11, 2006 at 06:30 PM
Shaq,
lol
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 06:37 PM
the lakers need a new uniform...maybe a black and gold?
Posted by: alex | January 11, 2006 at 06:44 PM
Roland,
You seem to pass off second hand information as facts. Unless you were personally there to witness some of the things you have printed, how can you ever prove them to be true? Has it ever occurred to you that the person you're interviewing might have an agenda of their own?
I, for one, will not be buying your book. You clearly have a bone to pick with Phil. My personal opinion is that you're a fraud. You make Peter Vescey seem venerable.
-msb212
Posted by: msb212 | January 11, 2006 at 07:11 PM
msb212,
You're certainly welcome to your opinion. The idea in journalism is to observe what is observable, which I always try to do. Because many things happen away from journalists, it is the journalist's job to secure the perspective of other people.
One thing about the oral history format is that the stories involve the perspectives of a lot of people.
I've interviewed literally dozens of people regarding Phil and his great abilities, as well as his shortcomings.
I understand Phil is your hero.
But the things I've written about him are factual. That doesn't make him evil. He has done some bad things, but who hasn't?
The other idea in journalism is to assemble the information and to let the reader decide. You've read my interview and based your opinion on that.
My question to you is, what are you afraid of? Is it such a terrible thing to find out that a person is more complex than you first thought?
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 07:54 PM
Wow! sometimes on this blog, I feel like we fans get an insider badge and access into the Lakers locker room...
LakerJam, i feel you. i love way too many social degenerates (or, they're perceived to be as such) to believe everything i read about them. so i hope i'm just as cautious reading negative stuff about others. however, i think roland has far and away proved his credibility and credentials. i'm very interested to read this sourcing now.
Roland, i called u out in a thread some weeks back. after i saw your comments in the "5 reasons why you can't blame Kobe Bryant" ... i said that you just sold another book in the Midwest ! yeeeeahhhh
will this book be available for us schmoes out here? or can we buy on-line?
Posted by: CBuck | January 11, 2006 at 08:00 PM
roland
any chance you can write an entire book on the shaq-kobe relationship and the 1996-2004 shaq/kobe era in l.a. (with an epilogue that includes an update on the participants after the break up as you did with the bulls)?
please include info on other key figures like buss, west, phil, and teammates.
lots of material there
Posted by: junior | January 11, 2006 at 08:20 PM
RE: Roland
No, Phil is not my hero. I'm forming an opinion on the material you have written. I came to the conclusion that although Phil has his shortcomings, as with everyone else (like you said), I feel that you interject far too much of your personal opinion for somebody who is suppose to be reporting factual evidence on this particular subject. Just my take.
People can read different publications and arrive at different conclusions. Some may view the articles published by supposed bipartisan journalists to be either to be too conservative or too liberal. As readers, and as human beings, we gather information and we decipher what the information means.
I'm sorry if you feel offended by what I wrote but that is the conclusion I arrived at after reading the material you have provided.
-msb212
Posted by: msb212 | January 11, 2006 at 08:23 PM
msb212,
Well, you call me a fraud. You made two entries here with no specifics, no information whatsoever. So, what is fraudulent about what I've said? And what research have you done to arrive at such a conclusion? I have the research, interviews and observation.
I believe it is you who are the fraud. You've offered nothing up here, not even so much as you're real name. Who are you as a person? Step up with your own name and cite something besides your own opinion if you're going to attack me personally.
Otherwise, you're acting in a sniveling, cowardly fashion.
Who are you?
What facts do you have?
What facts that I've presented do you specifically refute?
It seems you need to do that before you call me a fraud.
I'm a stand-up guy. Let me get this right. Your name is msb212?
Are you a computer?
Maybe you're Phil Jackson's girlfriend. I don't know until you identify yourself and present a cogent argument.
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 09:01 PM
Why does my opinion of your writing bother you so much? There's nothing to debate, is there? You're not going to convince me of something I don't believe to be true. You can try to persuade a Christian to become a Jew but doesn't mean that person will do so, right?
I don't see how my identity is relevant to the content of your writing. It's a moot point. I just don't understand why you're getting so worked up over an opinion of an anonymous poster on the internet.
Personally, I just have a hard time believing everything that is said by every interview granted to you. I think it's possible that the interviewee embellishes certain events or have a distorted memory based from the person's own perspective.
Remember, perception is reality. It's shaped by people's own experiences. To some, the holocaust never happened.
There is no argument here. You may have the last word.
-msb212
Posted by: msb212 | January 11, 2006 at 09:26 PM
You're opinion has nothing to do with my response. You called me a fraud. I don't know where you come from (you won't even provide your name), but I've always been ready to mix it up when someone attacks me personally.
You did so without one specific contention about anything I've written. Obviously, you've never read one of my books. That's your prerogative, just as it's mine to respond to personal attacks.
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 09:48 PM
Roland - once again an unworthy adversary. You called it out. I'm wondering, where did religion fall into all of this? The references to Christian v Jew and holocaust really have 'msb212' thinking something other than basketball. Read the books or don't read the books. Until you're named "msb212 Author of Religion in the NBA" don't slam a guy does this for a living and you can't even provide a name.
Posted by: Maleke | January 11, 2006 at 10:35 PM
Actually, I should have chilled on it. I just don't like personal attacks. Anyway, thanks for your kind comments. And those of you who disagree with me, have at it. Just don't call me names.
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 11, 2006 at 10:51 PM
Roland,
thank you for taking time to answer questions and give us some inside on the Lakers.
I would like to ask you
I don't know why I have the impression that Phil loses some games because he decided they were going to lose to make a point. This game at Portland could of been because he wanted to calm all the Kobe talk about the scoring records etc. And in his post game interview he indirectly blamed Kobe by saying that Kobe wanted to get hot and score and he never did, then he said that the rest of the team made the mistake of just passing the ball to Kobe.
See I wonder why Kwame didn't play more minutes , in Mondays game he was in foul trouble but he still played and was a big help, in other games he has also made questionable decisions and you wonder why. Also Phil just benched Kobe in critical moments as if to make a point. It would of been better just to let Kobe rest for tomorrows game.
I know Kobe made a lot of shots that were wrong, but still I have always thought that Phil lets some games slip away for a purpose and this one had that feeling for me.
Do you think he might do that?
Posted by: lakofan | January 11, 2006 at 11:41 PM
Roland,
First of all i wanted to let you know what an excellent book Mad Game was. Reading some of that Phil/West conflict on this blog reminded me what a pleasure that book was to read a few years back. I thought your point of allowing there to be greys when it comes to Phil Jackson (or anybody else for that matter) was an excellent one. I dont understand why it is so difficult for some people to seperate the idea of a great coach from a fallable human being. The reality is that in every fallout, every seperation (West, Phil/ Shaq-Kobe/Kobe-Malone/Mom-Dad) there is always more than one person at fault. How many times do we have to be burned by celebrities before we truly understand that they are people too? Why do we feel this urge to defend people we don't even know? From the one book of yours that i have read, as well as your constant posting on this blog (Thanks but WHY?.... no seriously answer that, WHY?) you have been nothing but fair in your assesments of the Laker organization. Providing insight that allows us hardcore fans a sense of realism we truly dont recieve anywhere else. One last thing, it sounds as if you sometimes walk a fine line with regards to revealing information that could, in the words of John Black (i think)"damage the organization". You already stated that protecting somebody isnt neccesarily your job, but have you ever held back on reporting information strictly because of the negative implications it may have had on the team? Cannot wait to read "The Show", its tops on my birthday list.
John
Posted by: John barry (not the ex laker) | January 12, 2006 at 01:29 AM
lakofan,
Excellent question.
Some of the best coaches will lose games to make a point. That may be the case here, but I'm not able to make that call.
There's definitely a bit of a tug of wills going on here. It's similar to the same kind of tug of will between Phil and a younger MJ years ago. Only years ago, Phil, too, was younger and more patient. He used to do things to manipulate MJ into getting him to trust teammates and to be more focused on team issues. Phil is a different Phil than he was as a younger coach in 1989 and 1990, surrounded by Tex Winter and Johnny Bach.
There's a struggle going on here a bit between the coach, Kobe, the offense and the rest of the team.
But Kobe only took 29 shots against Portland. How many of those were bad shots?
It's like Tex says, you need Kobe to do an awful lot to help this team win. When does he do too much? That's a hard thing to judge. The offense seemed pretty much in balance with a lot of people adding to the cause. This wasn't a night where Kobe needed to take 37 shots.
One of the officials last night was an official from the development league. Those officials have a tendency to call too many fouls. Believe me, I've sat through a bunch of D League games as a radio analyst.
In the Washington game on Dec. 26, the Lakers and Kobe in particular lost a lot of momentum with the offiicials making some mildly unusual and goofy calls.
Last night's game was everything to do with defense and rebounding.
It seemed to me that the Lakers walked out, saw that official and immediately decided to sit back defensively, which allowed Portland's guards to gain tons of confidence hitting those early shots.
You could see Kobe's competitiveness raging early on, so Phil sat him down to cool off. After all, Kobe faced the always-tough Ruben Patterson.
Phil's a master at seeing MJ's or Kobe's competitive urges and either riding them or trying to quell them when they get too high.
As it was, the officiating crew called 50 fouls, a mildly high number but nothing like the 70 or 80 fouls you can see on a crazy Development League night.
Your point about Kwame sitting is interesting. He played 21 minutes with four points and four rebounds. He seemed to have more rebounds than that.
I frankly can't comment on that, because I don't know all the factors.
The main factor to me was how well Portland played. The Blazers hate the Lakers. It's a long, frustrating rivalry for that team. The local broadcasting team was just filled with sarcasm in calling the game. Huge homers.
The Lakers were off. They weren't solid defensively, and they encounted a Portland team that really wanted to win and played well.
There may have been other factors, but I don't know about them. And there was no bigger factor than how well Portland played and shot the ball. The Lakers, and probably Kobe, seemed to think they could outscore them rather than spend so much effort contesting them defensively.
That proved not to be the case.
Phil definitely has his hands full riding the whirlwind that is Kobe Bryant right now.
This is where we find out if Phil and Kobe really, truly trust each other. Specifically if Kobe trusts Phil. Those two have a lot of history. And with a brilliant, manipulative mind like Phil's, you always have to wonder, because he is so unorthodox sometimes as a coach.
But if this team is to move forward, Kobe and Phil have to be really tight. This is a critical stage of the season. It would certainly be too intrusive for a journalist to start jabbing away with questions on this issue right now.
This team, and this situation, needs room to happen.
Just like a coach losing a game to prove a point, a sportswriter needs to channel aggressiveness as well and allow a team room to be itself.
So we have to watch with interest. It was a tough loss, but this whole process is fascinating.
Roland Lazenby
author of The Show
Posted by: Roland Lazenby | January 12, 2006 at 02:13 AM