"Steven" vs. Just About Everyone Else
Kobe may have been off the court and under house arrest during Elbow-gate, but his presence has been felt in the blogosphere stronger than ever. In particular, what his presence (or lack thereof) means to the team. Obviously, there isn't a single sane argument that the team, as currently constructed, is actually better with Kobe off the court. We can all agree on this. But with Kobe suspended, it's been easier to visualize the team with another superstar in his place. And nobody's been more vocal about this than "Steven." The only screams more constant and loud than his "trade Kobe for LeBron" during the last 48-72 hours were mine as I yelled at the TV last night for somebody to tackle Vince Young. As many of you have brought up, the Cavs ain't trading LeBron, so it's a somewhat silly idea to harp on. And I agree, unless something truly bizarre transpires, there's no way in hell Cleveland does it.
But for the sake of argument, let's just say Danny Ferry woke up this morning and decided Kobe would fit his squad's makeup better than LeBron. And y'all are Mitch Kupchak. Your cell rings, and it's Ferry on the other line, offering Kobe for LeBron. Straight up. Forget that the salaries don't currently match. Let's just say they do. And every other particular is in line, too.
Would you do it?
Now, in making this decision, I want you to think about it like a GM, and not a Lakers fan. Remember, you're Kupchak, not you in a bar, cheering on L.A. while donning Kobe's jersey and your own pair of black tights. You gotta remove that side of yourself. Like Michael Corleone said before agreeing to kill McCluskey, "It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business." An opportunity to trade a legit superstar for another legit superstar. Would you do it?
For me, it's a no brainer.
In a split nano-second.
Now before everyone starts accusing me of being blasphemous, a "hater," or actually "Steven" writing under AK's name, calm down and listen. I'm not taking anything away from Kobe's greatness. Kobe's the shizzle. He's got a few flaws (what player doesn't?), but he's a pretty damn good player. If he's not the best perimeter player in the game, he's in the top 3, hands down. Top 10 in the league, period. But this is about practicality and the future. LeBron just turned 21. He's 6 years younger than Kobe. And really good. Even if you don't think he's as good as Kobe (and that argument can go either way, depending on how you define "better), it's not ridiculous to say he couldn't end up that good in 6 years... when Kobe will be 33. Kobe may be incredible, but he can't take Father Time to the hole. If given the opportunity to do it, you'd be insane not jump on it. Same with a one for one D-Wade swap, and not just because the prospect of putting Kobe and Shaq back on the same team is too entertaining to pass up. Currently better than Kobe or not, Wade is a sick player, with no real weaknesses. And he's 4 years younger. You don't let that prospect slip through your fingers.
For that matter, there are two (and probably only two) other players I'd trade Kobe straight up for: KG and Duncan (let me say right now, if you don't trade Kobe for TD, you're an absolute idiot). Actually, if Amare's knee heals up good, he's on that list, too. So there you have it. Those 5 are the only definite, "you gotta pull the trigger guys," in my mind. There are a couple more who would be tempting (Jermaine O'Neal, Dwight Howard), but I can't say FOR SURE I'd do it. And again, I'm giving Kobe a lot of respect. To say there are only 5 guys in the league right now worth Kobe's weight means something. But if you put your purple and gold bias aside, I think those five are impossible not to grab.
If you don't agree, which I expect many of you don't, let's hear it. But I want actual reasons. Not "Kobe's the man!" or "Kobe rules!" Frankly, so do the others. I don't wanna hear "Kobe's the face of the Lakers." That's not a valid objection. Shaq was once the face, too, even with #8 alongside him. Teams change. It's part of the game. Throw out some actual reasons, ones that have nothing to do with the posters on your wall, but with basketball. Why does it not make sense from a purely hoops perspective?
AK
TRADE THE GOD DAMN KWAME BROWN!
HE'S SO STUPID!
THE GUY'S A BI*TCH!
WE SHOULD HAVE KEPT BUTLER!
_______________
*KOBE FOR MVP!
*GO LAKERS!
Posted by: shaq_hater | January 05, 2006 at 11:27 PM
Lebron - I would not trade Kobe for Lebron. Unless I had somebody similar to James Worthy and Kareem on the team, catch my drift? He doesn't play defense, nor will he ever. I think he's just too big and bulky to ever play good defense.
KG - Probably not. He's a great player but I don't think he'll ever win a championship.
TD - Probably the only player that I would trade for Kobe because he's a legit big man who has won championships and knows what it takes.
Dwayne Wade - Why would I want someone who plays like Kobe and is shorter by 2 inches?
Amare - Nope, he puts up the stats but without Nash he's just an all-star. Kind of reminds me of a bigger more athletic Shawn Marion.
Posted by: Frustrated Laker Fan | January 05, 2006 at 11:36 PM
I would not even trade Odom for these guys. If they were that good then they would have more bling bling than Kobe!
Posted by: Khan | January 05, 2006 at 11:37 PM
An unidentified source from Lakers organization just told me that they are very much interested in bringing back DFish. One of the possibility they are exploring is trading Odom for DFish. The official believes that this would definately put Lakers on a championship hunt again like when they won 3 rings with DFish. Great new Lakers Fan! DFish is back...
Posted by: Khan | January 05, 2006 at 11:49 PM
So you all would rather watch the Lakers lose with Lebron than with Kobe? That's cool, but I'd rather win another championship. If we all found out Lebron's mom lied on his birth certificate and that he's 25, you'd believe it and he wouldn't be all that anymore. Tim D hasn't done very well with Manu on the bench these days. KG is intense but hasn't won anything. Wade is young but can't carry an NBA team for a season. These deals are not doable anyway, but we love to look at the one move, the Jordan move that will fix it. it's not going to happen. This league keeps looking back at the Jordan years because that's where the money was. But there are no more Jordans. Being a Jordan would require consistent winning as well as a good array of dunks. Lebron doesn't qualify in the former.
Posted by: Vman | January 05, 2006 at 11:50 PM
Come to think about it, I think I would only take Duncan for Kobe IF this Laker team were better. How many of you here think the Lakers would do better with Duncan on THIS team rather than Kobe?
What this Laker team seriously lack is scoring, and that's what Kobe provides. Duncan is no doubt a solid player, but he needs to have a good TEAM as well (ala Tony, Manu, Finley..etc). I think that if you put Duncan on THIS team, the Lakers will have a worse record than they do now. The last two games proved that the Lakers should be renamed the Hawks without Kobe. I think Kobe's suspension will prove to the league what he has done with these bunch of guys. No doubt he can be a bit selfish at times, but his overall competitiveness and greatness cannot be denied. It's what sets him apart from other players in the league (Iverson has similar traits as well).
Duncan will provide leadership and consistency, but I seriously doubt he can carry THIS Laker team to the playoffs. He simply cannot provide the scoring this Laker team NEEDS in order to make the playoffs. I would only trade for Duncan IF I could make other trades to bring in better players as well.
Having said that, I think that all Kobe needs for this team to succeed is a consistent second scorer. Lamar Odom can be that man but he needs to be more confident. Smush has also been a dissapointment after such a promising start. The Lakers need to start trusting themselves before they can ask Kobe to trust in them.
AK, I wanna know your thoughts. Would you still trade for Duncan if you had to stick with this same Laker team for at least till the end of the season? Don't you agree that Duncan needs a solid team around him to be successful as well? Also, do you think Kobe will win a championship with the current Spurs team? Will the Spurs pull the trigger if an Kobe-Duncan seriously came up?
Really good discussion here AK. I'm glad you brought it up.
Posted by: Nigel | January 05, 2006 at 11:51 PM
Lets face it the press in general and the journalist don't like Kobe Bryant and will not like him until it becomes 'cool' again to like him.
It may sound exagerated but Kobe right now is underated, because it's almost sports incorrect to like him. If he someday does something that nobody can't deny, it will be 'cool' to like and respect him again.
That is fine with me, because I like Kobe for the player that I have seen on the court for the past ten years (his personal life does not count, his personality and who his friends are or are not make no diference, see he is a basketball player and he should be judge by that. AND CERTAIN PEOPLE JUDGE HIM FOR ALL OF THAT EVEN IF THEY DON'T ADMIT IT) and for what he will do in the future.
See I don't buy the hype ESPN and all the other sports outlets give other players. I seen those players play and I can make my own decision on who I think is a good player or not. Don't need a song that ESPN plays everytime they show highlights of James, or the comercials Wade does to tell me they are IT, and not Kobe or any other player.
Since when is it a punishment to be who you are?... we all have flows, we all make mistakes. Other players may do things that are not right or they may be violent and so on and so on.... but they don't get exposed because they are friendly with reporters.
Journalist should not make an opinion about someones performance by taking in information that is not related to the player's game.
And I know this is a little off topic, but I think that if this is a lakersblog we should not disrepect Kobe by asking who would you trade Kobe for...he is a Laker and for now he is here like it or not.
And saying this is not been close minded is being behind your team and its leader(for the amount of time that may be). As Laker fans lets give a little respect to OUR team, since it seems that nobody else does.
Posted by: lakofan | January 05, 2006 at 11:53 PM
khan.........nvm your post is so stupid it's not even worth responding to....
go lakers...
Posted by: TrueLakerFan | January 05, 2006 at 11:55 PM
TrueLakerFan.....you are an idiot. You just did!
Posted by: Khan | January 05, 2006 at 11:59 PM
Nigel,
If Duncan subbed for Kobe on this particular team, they'd probably stay more or less the same, I'm guessing. Maybe a little better, since it's sometimes harder to stop a high quality big than a high quality wing. But certainly not tons better, for sure. Then again, by just keeping Kobe, they're not all that incredible, either. Like I told Brokli earlier, whether you'd pull the trigger on any of these hypothetical swaps or not, pieces need to be added, regardless. Kobe can't carry this team, or one similar, to a championship.
But earlier you said, "all Kobe needs for this team to succeed is a consistent second scorer." Well, whatver player you brought in that can put up 18-22, Duncan (or whoever you traded Kobe for) would also get to play with that guy, too. Thus, Duncan's now playing with a better Laker squad. The same rules have to apply for both. You can't nix Duncan because he couldn't carry this team, but then say Kobe could do it, if only they added another quality player. That's a double standard.
That actually brings me to another point. There are a lot of people nixing LeBron, Wade, KG, etc. because they haven't won anything yet. It's a fair criticism, if a bit misleading, given that Wade and LeBron have barely been in the league, and KG never played with a team remotely as good as Kobe's. But still, it's valid. They haven't won.
But everyone also needs to keep in mind, when it comes to carrying a team as the #1 option, Kobe doesn't have a big-time track record, either. During the 1st Phil Jackson era (I won't count last or this season, since they're clearly rebuilding), in games with Shaq out and Kobe the focal point, the Lakers went 26-25. Yeah, the O was desgined around Diesel and the supporting casts back then weren't built for high octane scoring, either. Hell, Soumaila Samake (remember him?) started one game at the 5. But it was still guys like Fish, Horry, Fox, GP, Malone, Shaw, Ho-Grant, Rice, etc. In other words, they hardly sucked. And Kobe led them to just above .500.
Now, I'm not saying Shaq carried Kobe, or any nonsense like that. Shaq needed Kobe JUST as much as the other way around. And Kobe should get props for those rings. But he still never won them with a team centered around him. Not saying he can't. Not by a long shot. But until he actually does it, if you wanna be fair about this debate, some of those doubts you're throwing at LeBron, D-Wade, KG, etc. have to apply a bit to Ocho, too. He's no more proven at in this PARTICULAR scenario than any of the others. Not being negative. Just being honest.
Good question, Nigel.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | January 06, 2006 at 12:55 AM
lebron for kobe? no thanks.
when's the last time that straight-up "oldhead for new cat" trade actually worked?
sure didn't in 2001, when phoenix got stupid and straight up traded 28-year-old jason kidd to the nets for 24-year-old stephon marbury. what happened next? kidd led NJ to the finals, and remains there today while marbury didn't do crap.
if i was a GM, i wouldn't blindly follow that 'youth is king' theory. you don't always go for the sexier, younger player. you go for what WORKS for your organization.
why trade away a PROVEN, solid commodity for a "what if?" a lebron for kobe trade might work fantastically in NBA Live '06 (or whatever), but in reality, I'm going with the more experienced vet who still hasn't peaked. ko-be.
Posted by: CBuck | January 06, 2006 at 01:44 AM
Hey Fan Faithful,
This is getting a little to overdone on a dialy basis, but I love it! So,... since we are all at it and want to be the GM so bad it hurts. I mean so many theories and such little substance on who really could help this team now, before the deadline not fantasyland no salary cap and no Phil intervention.
The truth is Jerry Buss isn't ready to spend it all on this team. Kupchak and Phil know it will be a struggle to make the playoffs with this team as is. The baggage will be sifted out but never fast enough for us Win-it-all fans!
The only guys who could really sure up this team are so deep in contract and salaries that would bury us (KG, Amrare, TD, Artest, and LeBron )it is going to take young talent and some big breaks on drafts and taking chances on players like Smush and hope Turiaf can bang. My man Mateen Cleaves!!! that line went over horribly but he is out there and plays decent defense, better than Smush if you look at footwork and fighting through screens. Poor Bastard hasn't had a chance to get any playing time everywhere he's gone, behind Chauncy,Bibby, then Ridnour gets the minutes for being the big contract and great white hope in Sonic land. Anyway, Marcus Fizer will make it into the league someday, mark my words, he's palying with kids down in D-League. Poor-mans Danny Fortson, with better D. Just for more controversy, DWade can play D and will be a huge star in the league, fills up the stats and knows how to win a game at crunch time. Might even have a better shot selection than Kobe. But there aint a chance in hell Dr.Buss is letting Kobe out of the building - those 62 points will keep us all coming back to see it again!
If we keep losing and this season starts to stink after Kobe comes back I sure hope we start to see sky hooks from Bynum.
Only a great big man could really make a difference- or maybe a hypnotist for Mihm. Brother goes off for 20/10 then nothing. Getting rid of Slava, DGeorge, Green, and maybe even Sasha and Luke will be our Off- season worries, and of course Smush, we have to get better and bigger at point unless he becomes a difference maker and fill ups the stats. His D needs a lot of work.
The smartest thing they can do is get out of Big Man Hell and work on a tight young group of rim-bangers. Odom aint it either, he can wait all he wants but if he makes our Olympic team I would bet against it. I wonder if Kupchak has read Billy Ball. Later bLoggers
Posted by: Pete Maguire | January 06, 2006 at 03:11 AM
I think there are alot of haters in this blog.
Firstly, AK should have not come up with this stupid topic. Just imagine if Kobe would sign with CLIPPERS two years ago and compare where would Clippers be and Lakers. Than you would undersand how importand KOBE is. You all saw the games with JAZZ, it was boring as hell playing with out KOBE. Once again, AK, you need to shut up and never mention KOBE.
GO KOBE don't listen to haters, they are just haters.
Posted by: Alban | January 06, 2006 at 03:18 AM
Let's face it- the Lakers will NEVER be able to deal Kobe for his fair-market value- he's too good a player, and not even close to his b-ball prime. However, if a deal for Lebron or TD came up, trading Kobe be the smart move. The Lakers would go from the mediocrity of .500 to a 2nd round playoff team(provided that management would make the right complementary moves) AT LEAST.
Kobe or Lebron- who'd be better for this franchise? Well, Lebron is a Magic throwback, whose all-around game would make EVERY Laker better. I love watching Kobe go off when he's hot, but I see a team that stands around and watches- he's Dominique Wilkins with Michael Jordan's guile- and we are now Hawks' fans. Wouldn't a Lebron or a Wade make things interesting again for us? Like, maybe we could be in contention for something in May or June?
Personally, I'm a Shaq guy, for no other reason than he still gets invites to the playoffs. Yes, he's out of shape, but he still passes the ball and at least he's team oriented. Kobe might be the best individual talent in the NBA since Jordan- certainly one of the best of all time. Unfortunately, the Lakers are about winning, and no one can do it alone. So, any GM with brain activity and a love for the team perspective of our Laker history would deal Kobe in the blink of an eye. I don't care if our best player has the heart of an assassin, or is contending for scoring titles. We need to be playing ball in June ...
Posted by: Brandon | January 06, 2006 at 03:33 AM
BOTTOM LINE IS ENTERTAINMENT VALUE!!!!
Trading Kobe for LeBron would be a great move for the Laker organization economically as well as an opportunity to gain future top tier free agents. LeBron would be a bigger attraction in major media markets such as Los Angeles or New York. Of course most players desire the exposure that these markets can give them due to corporate endorsements, etc.
The type of excitement that LeBron James can bring coincides with the ENTERTAINMENT value that Laker fans and Southern Californians in general, crave to see. The SHOWTIME years as well as the Shaq-Kobe-Phil years drew sellout crowds in all the NBA arenas as well as national telecast.
There is an outside possibility that LeBron James can 'force' Cleveland to trade him due to salary demands in the 2007 season. This is the same type of scenario that brought Shaq to the City of Angels from Orlando in 1996-97. Cleveland of course would not trade him to an Eastern Conference team which would not make any sense. Of course the huge corporate sponsors that are paying LeBron hundreds of millions of dollars would of course gently 'nudge' him to play in a larger media market where the media exposure translates into more sales and DOLLARS.
LeBron would be better than DWade or any of the others mentioned. While Wade is a very good player, he is not the NBA's poster boy and wouldn't be as big of a draw as LeBron. This begs the question: How can Buss justify the ticket prices with the type mediocre product that he is offering?
Kobe Bryant is an exciting player, however there are players in the league that do not have a desire to play along side of him in Los Angeles due to the past problems with Shaq, Phil Jax, Karl Malone, Chuckie Atkins and now elbowgate with Miller. That in itself will not bring free agents that would be willing to take cuts in pay and playing time to just for the opportunity to play for the historic Laker organization.
During the Magic Johnson years there were players such as Mychal Thompson and Bob McAdoo that took cuts to play for the organization. Even during the Shaq-Kobe years with it being known throughout the league that Shaq was the man, players such as Glenn Rice, Gary Payton and Karl Malone took pay cuts just to play along side Shaq and Kobe and possibly win a championship.
With all the controvery and managial decisions swirling around the Lakers it is highly unlikely that any top free agents would want to play for the Lakers. The bottom line is producing revenue, which the fresh face and talent of a LeBron James can bring to the Laker organization.
It must realized that Kobe can not and HAS NOT won anything on his own or by himself. Kobe was part of a TEAM EFFORT that won three NBA titles. What Kobe DOES have is experience in playing over 100+ games in an NBA season and post season. What Kobe has or should have, is the type of knowledge it takes for mental and phyical preparation for long NBA seasons and post seasons.
The Laker organization has had a past reputation of being able to attract big named Centers to play for the organization. I don't see this happening any time soon as long as Kobe Bryant is a Laker. The bottom line is revenue and a team featuring LeBron and a good big man, can generate more revenue for the organization.
With LeBron's style of unselfish play the Lakers could ATTRACT a quality free agent big man in the center position to compliment and build around for an 'inside-outside' attack. Remember, you don't see ANY quality players or bigs breaking their necks to play alongside Kobe at this moment.
There is a possibility the deal can be done, but it would take some serious negotiating with various GM's for Kupchak to pull this off. This would require the type of negotiation magic that Jerry West could perform.
Trade Kobe for LeBron
OUT!!!
The truth
Posted by: Steven | January 06, 2006 at 03:41 AM
People are talking a lot about Lebron and wade potential improvement ...They have been in the league now for 3 years, they are very close to their peak...Look at lebrons statistics and you will see that he will not go much higher, maybe 4 to 5 more points a game, a few less rebounds and assists depending on how he will adjust his game. Come on guys, this is basketball, do you seriously think Lebron will average 40 points , 7 assist and 7 rebounds a game for the rest of his brilliant carrier :). He gonna get double or tripple teamed.
Just compare the defense on kobe and lebron and you will see that nba insiders know who is the best. kobe is systematically doubled or trippled, and half the fouls are not called! still he mystifies and mesmerizes and "posterises" you! I am sure most players beg their coach not to be the one guarding kobe.
If eddie jones was not in LA when kobe came in first, he would have dropped 25 every night, Shaq also was here after that, so kobe was never a first option...
Lebron will NEVER be as good as KB8! you just have to look at kobe dribbling the ball! the 8th wonder is all science and knowledge ...
Posted by: mamadou | January 06, 2006 at 04:52 AM
AK,
I thought this scenario was an AS IS type of scenario.(in your scenario you asked us to imagine Ferry believed Kobe would fit his team's make up better than LeBron--that seems like an immediate type of scenario you were trying to build). If as GM I was able to then make "other" moves(as you stated in your reply to me), I think the scenario devolves into some fantasy where I would then be comfortable trading Kobe for just about any A-rated player. Many top players can get you where Kobe can get you if you surround him with ENOUGH talent. but if the GM from another team THIS MORNING woke up and said "i'll trade you straight up for my guy", with no other moves to be made...ONLY LeBRON!! I won't rehash my other arguments, but I agree that if a post was available with the game of TD, but at a much younger age, you would have to do it. But such a guy does not exist (i still can't believe you said Howard and J. O'neal...were you "really" serious. i'd like to hear your defense of these two in particular).
someone mentioned Phil wrote the Lakers missed their chance by not trading Kobe for Marion and Kidd. Phil had an obvious agenda in writing that and at the time was loyal to Shaq. but in all truth, they weren't going to beat the Pistons with those two instead of Kobe and it's arguable that they would have won the 7th game of that Portland series w/o Kobe (thus changing the future and the fortunes of the Lakers). not to mention the fact that those two are averse to defense and thrive in a more wide open running game which would gas Shaq in about a quarter. so such a statement assumes far too much to be relevant (such as how do you pay those 3 w/ shaq wanting 30 large a year and the other two commanding 30 or more between them).
I agree that many have drank the D-wade plays no D kool-aid, but as you properly stated, it's not true. he does not, however, jumpshoot well and does not seem to possess the "drive" kobe has. plus, the kid still lets kobe get in his head as evidenced by that game a few days ago.
AK, I do not have my purple and gold blinders on and as i live in Louisiana, I am removed from the Laker aura, so I say this after much thought. The only player in the NBA worth giving Kobe up for is LJ. I actually wonder a lot of times why a lot of people constantly call for this kid's head. Is there any other team's fanbase with a great player who so ardently seeks to trade their franchise player? the guy who is the best of the "heir to MJ's throne" players. at 27? and 3 rings? wow!
please AK, tell me you were joking though about the O'Neal-Howard thing! As I said before, JO to many is only the second best player on his team and even if Howard turned out to be the next Karl Malone(which is a stretch although the kid's good), would you rather build a team around a Karl in his heyday or Kobe?
enjoying the thread and the banter!
Posted by: iluvbrokli | January 06, 2006 at 05:52 AM
All of the haters are just supplying the fuel Kobe needs, and the fire inside of him is becoming bigger. I can bet all the money in the world the Lakers will beat the 76ers today. Therefore all the haters do what u do best "hate" and watch one guy step-up and show u how the game is supposed to be played.
Posted by: TJ | January 06, 2006 at 06:50 AM
kobe bryant is probably in the top 5 players in the NBA.I dont think that i would trade him for Wade or Duncan or LeBron because their teams make them look good.they have all the neccessary role players.everyone talks abt how wade carried his team earlier this season but he had a very good and passionate center in 'Zo.Lebron dint have noone last year and they did horribly in the stretch run.Duncan is too soft too be the team leader of a *Crappy* squad that the lakers have with LO as the 2nd scorer.None of them have taken over as many games late as kobe has(e.g. Dallas-LA kobe scored 21 pts in last qtr.lakers come back from from 88-61 deficit at the start of 4th),but that could change in da future.
Posted by: the KB fan | January 06, 2006 at 07:23 AM
AK,
kobe was not remotely near his self that he is now,willing his teeam to victory as well as being gr8 in the clutch.
Posted by: The koba fan | January 06, 2006 at 07:25 AM
Can I clear this up for everyone?
The only trade for Kobe will be:
Kobe for Lebron and KG and Duncan and D-Wade and Tracy M.
Then it would be worth it, because if one man can out score a team in three quarters then you will have to replace him with a team.
Done deal!
Go Lakers!!!
Posted by: LakerFan4life | January 06, 2006 at 07:42 AM
Thanks, everyone, for making Steven feel important about himself. His mission has been accomplished, and I'm sure he's celebrating his 15 minutes of fame.
This is a ridiculous topic that should have not garnered this much attention.
Posted by: troy | January 06, 2006 at 07:46 AM
Howard? C'mon, he can't even be put in the same breath of KB8. Are we kiddin' or what? Did you see his stats and performances? Kobe proved to be 20 times him.
James? Great talent but NO defense (Tracy played with him all nite long yesterday ).Are we sure he is gonna be better thank Kobe at 27? Not sure about that. So, in the doubt I keep the known for the unknown!
D-Wade? A smaller version of Kobe. Not as good defender as kobe, not good 3point shooter. usually disappear in the important games.
KG. I love KG, but he never proved to be a winner.2 years ago in the western finals vs. Lakers had been kind of humiliated by 40 years old Malone. And he basically never stepped up in the important games of his career.
TD. Last year Manu was MVP. Against the Suns Amare played much better game than him. And he doesn't put such incredibles number every night.he is not good free throw shooter. He does not have the passion, the fire, the hearth, the explosivness for the game that Kobe has.
I Would not trade the best player in the league for any of the players mentioned above.
I do acknowledge that, sometimes, he pushes the envelope a little too much, but that's the only critic I can make.
Kobe gives me the pride to be 'a Laker' and an angeleno (well italian-angeleno)every time he steps on the floor with his hearth and pride.
He showed that one more time against Memphis with that flagrant-intentional foul: his competitivness and willing to don't let other teams humiliate His fans in their Arena.
And he speaks italian very well (just joking, this is not a reason why I would keep him)!
Kobe for MVP!
Posted by: Marco | January 06, 2006 at 07:47 AM
Et tu, AK? Et tu?
Okay, okay... dude, I can't believe you let a lunatic like Steven force your hand. What are you thinking?
I would not trade Kobe for Duncan nor KG.
However, under the present team, I would trade Kobe for LeBron. LeBron's younger and makes his teammates significantly better than Kobe does. Kobe has yet to aquire that skill and he's 27. He may not figure out how to do that until he's in his 30's.
Kobe plays much better defense than LeBron, but LeBron has time to develop.
Now, if it were another Lakers team with a second superstar on it, I'd keep Kobe and wouldn't trade him for LeBron. Kobe has a competitive greatness to him that I do not see in LeBron. This near-dysfunction of Kobe simply needs the right environment. If given it, things happen on the court that cannot he quantified--a kind of basketball magic.
Kobe may never accept it, but he needs another superstar for him to play at his best. What I mean by best is that his presence works in a dynamic that creates greatness on a team.
Kobe cannot carry a team to greatness on his own, particularly because of the relatively solitary nature of his play. You bring in another superstar with a less solitary nature of play who can stand up to Kobe, then you have the greatest dynamic in the present history of basketball.
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 06, 2006 at 07:49 AM
You can't count D-Wade in the equation because he won't have the opportunity to carry a team himself until Riley does what he did with Magic and officially turns the team over to him, which may not happen for a while if Shaq gets (and stays) in shape. And AK is right about Kobe not proven to lead a team yet. Until Kupchak builds a "team" around Kobe, then we can't truely judge Kobe either.
Posted by: Rich1906 | January 06, 2006 at 07:55 AM
AK,
I know you're trying to be a fair blogmaster, but I fear you are just giving strength to wackos like Steven.
Why don't you just put forth the question: Who would be a better Laker--Shaq, Kobe, Aquaman, Batman, or Spider-Man?
Barring any major unforeseen changes, Kobe's going to be a Laker until he retires. He's going to be one of the few to retire on the same team that drafted him.
He's our guy.
I am terrifically amazed that there is a large segment of Laker "fans" who want Ron Artest on our team, yet there seems to be an equally large segment (perhaps the SAME segment) that wants to trade Kobe. I just don't get it. Where do these people come from?
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 06, 2006 at 08:05 AM
It's hard to make any opinion at face value. Sorry, but the bias will exist for all of us.
That said, I stand by my man. AK is right..Kobe hasn't shown what he can do by himself. But no single other superstar could do much with the team the Lakers have right now. But I believe Kobe could do more with the teams that other superstars have. You can throw last season out the door. It was a total aberration..he was just coming off the Colorado trial, the Shaq trade was fresh, he was only beginning to focus his game, again. There was a new coach, and then there was another new coach. And then you had homos like Atkins biting the hand that feeds and Ray Allen shooting his mouth off unfairly about a superstar who was only trying to climb back into the league (not even the spotlight)...it would be nigh impossible for Kobe to have had a good season last year. If he did..well then, we could ignore all the naysayers based on that alone.
Still..I'm trying to look at this through neutral eyes, and I must say...youth is good, youth is great, but Kobe ain't old either. I'm keeping Kobe. There is no straight up trade I would make for ANY other guard in the league.
I may consider the TD, KG trades..but in the end, I want my excitement, and I get that with Kobs. He is..afterall, the best player in the league. I've said before..he's not playing like it, which fuels the criticism, but he's shown it. He just has to learn to play like it..that's what Phil's here for, right?
Please..no more poems..at least not until you stop learning from 50 cent.
Posted by: S.Tan | January 06, 2006 at 08:09 AM
How was working with Shaquille O'Neal? Was it tough?
– Raul Torres (Madrid, Spain)
EP: He was a good student, although not motivated. He did all he had to do and no more. He doesn't care. Seeking greatness in shooting is hard mental and physical work. He is an emotional shooter. He only cares and hopes he can make them when he's missed a whole bunch or when the game is on the line. He can't figure that every single shot is big. He knows he is bigger than the game and does not want to be a true superstar like Jordan, who wants nary weakness in his game. Shaq improved about 30 percent while I worked with him for eight months. A Los Angeles Times full page article read "Shooting Phenom Saves Lakers Season." I earned an NBA ring for the effort, but not one jot or tittle of appreciation from Shaq ever. Sad but true. You go figure.
- Ed Palubinskas, From chat published in hoopshype.com on coaching Shaq.
Posted by: The In-House Crowd | January 06, 2006 at 08:11 AM
From Andrew Z's article,
The GM's best players, by position, with percentage of their votes:
PG Steve Nash (68%)
SG Kobe Bryant (56%)
SF Tracy McGrady (48%, with Lebron getting 40%)
PF Duncan (78%)
C Shaq (84%)
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 06, 2006 at 08:16 AM
Just sign Turriaf. Lebron is good, Wade is very good, and KG and Duncan are amazing but they are not available. Mitch must get his priorities straight and what the Lakers need right now is Turriaf. If the Lakers can’t do this by next week Wednesday Mitch should be fired.
Posted by: Micah | January 06, 2006 at 08:17 AM
wait..actually. I might have to make the trade if the guards in question are nash or kidd.
But I still prefer Kobe.
Posted by: S.Tan | January 06, 2006 at 08:20 AM
Bridgeport,
LO took 17 shots against Utah, and *still* no other Laker scored in double-figures. Was that Kobe's selfish fault, too? His team mates must step up.
Kobe wins games by himself, which makes him dangerous in the playoffs. Which if I'm GM and Buss is my owner (don't forget that GM's don't own teams), and we all know that Buss is about playoffs and not regular seasons, I've got to put that at the top of my list.
LeBron for Kobe: Can't. King James has no D. Lakers wouldn't make playoff. Buss looses $$ and fires me.
KG for Kobe: Got to think about that one, dude's like 7 feet with handles, J and heart. But, much older -- pro'lly not. Close, though.
Wade for Kobe: HELL No! Wade would have to come with a defender as well to match up with Kobe. That's outside the rules. No brainer.
Amare for Kobe: Amare is sick, but maybe he's fragile. What if he's another Grant Hill. Stay away like the plague.
Duncan for Kobe: Can't shoot FT. Can't lock anybody up.
T-Mac for Kobe: No D, No T-Mac. Dude is ill, though.
Truth is, if you could somehow puts Kobe's work ethic into the bodies of any of these other guys, you would have a monster. Does anybody realize that Kobe is the shortest guy at the top of the list of best players in the league? 2 more inches and there would be NO DOUBT! He's the ONLY perimeter player in the top 5. Sorry, Wade. Gotta play D if you want to be in THIS club.
My list is like this:
Kobe
Duncan
Garnett
James
McGrady
And, I don't know what games the rest of you have been watching, but the Lakers seem to enjoy playing with Kobe this year. He's been leading the younger guys, and he's been patient -- so far. Can't buy the "team mates don't like him" argument anymore. You've got to change your rhetoric when the facts change. Last year was last year. This year is this year.
Peace!
Posted by: Fearless | January 06, 2006 at 08:21 AM
The thing that I hate about this kind of discussion is the idea that we can put together some kind of "Fantasy League" Lakers and everything will be okay and we'll will 10 championships in a row like the Celtics of old.
Nonsense.
Listen, we have (conservatively speaking) one of the top 20 players OF ALL TIME, probably one of the top 5 players of all time on our roster: KOBE BRYANT.
We also have another potential multi-year All-Star on our team: Lamar Odom.
We also have the Greatest Professional Basketball Coach of All-Time: Phil Jackson.
All we (Lakernation) have to do is figure out a way to make it work. Championships don't build themselves on their own. They have to find a Way.
All this discussion of completely dissolving the team and rebuilding when we have Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, and Lamar Odom is the rambling of lunacy.
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 06, 2006 at 08:22 AM
I agree with Nigel.
KG probably won't be playing for Minnesota next year.
KG in a Laker uniform would be nice.
KG, Kobe, and Lamar. Could you imagine?
Wow.
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 06, 2006 at 08:27 AM
My comments:
1) First of all, don't assume that Phil decided not to coach the Cavs because he liked Kobe better than Lebron. Everything a man does in his life is usually for a woman. As far as I'm concerned, if he wanted to coach again, the Lakers were his ONLY option because of Jeannie Buss. Everything else: Having Kobe and some Lakers having experience in the triangle was only ICING on the cake.
Look at Matt Leinart. You may not believe it, but he came back to USC for one sole reason: Women. A chance to win another national championship would have been just icing on the cake.
2) Duane Wade is better than people on this blog give him credit for. Wade dominated in the Playoffs as a rookie without Shaq. Kobe gave us 2 airballs as a rookie.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Kobe Bryant. I do feel he has the wrong attitude as a player, but he is an unstoppable player. He needs to change his attitude from "ME" to "Us". What he said in the beginning of the year describes his attitude perfectly: "I won't help my teammates with the triangle. I have my own stuff to worry about. Let them learn it on their own."
These statements are classic Kobe. If he was a true teammate, he would always take the time to help his teammates so they can get better at the game. He has his own stuff to worry about? Like what? He is an expert in the triangle and all of Phil's philosophies.
Why can't Kobe take timeout to help his teamates? Sometimes people need to hear it from their star leader and Kobe evidently is not giving it to them. Then he complains when they don't do things right.
Kobe, Kobe, we need a change of attitude!
Posted by: Zen | January 06, 2006 at 08:28 AM
Thank you AK for reminding everyone that giving Kobe his three rings is a little misleading. Kobe has never won anything on his own, neither has anyone else for that matter. Duncan has an incredible supporting cast in SA, one that Kobe would be a favorite to win the title with also. Even dominant big men like Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq never won a title until they had a solid, if not extremely good, set of players around them. Even Jordan didn’t win anything until he had a team around him, and don’t start by saying all he had was Pippen because those Bulls teams were loaded all the way around.
I think Kobe is the best player in the game hands down, but he will never win another championship until he gets more talent around him, period. And for those who feel that the Lakers are a “#2 scorer” away from being a contender again, I think you have too much confidence in this squad as they are currently established. For some incredible stroke of luck we got Artest for someone other than George and garbage we would not, I repeat NOT, be considered a championship quality team, and Artest is what I would consider a great #2 option.
I believe someone asked the question about a Lamar straight up for someone trade and salaries had to match. To be honest, I don’t think I do it for anyone who makes what he makes. I think Lamar is exceptional talent who fills the stat sheet every night. I don’t think his strengths are scoring 18-22 a night and being the go-to-guy, but try to find someone who makes what he does, switch their places and see if the Lakers get any better. The only player that I found that I might do the swap for is Rasheed Wallace (salaries are within the 25% that the CBA mandates). He is getting a bit long in the tooth but he’s a great interior defender who can shoot the rock from both inside and outside. Other than that, and I’d be hesitant to pull the trigger on that deal, I like Odom and what he brings to the table.
Posted by: Andrew Z | January 06, 2006 at 08:53 AM
Brandon,
Shaq - A team player? Where were you when he elected to put off surgery until the seasson started, becuase he did not want to do it on the the off season? Where were you when he said he would not guard the paint unless he get the ball? I could go on, but for a limited fan of the lakers, this is all the time I am willing to waste.
Posted by: Neal | January 06, 2006 at 09:01 AM
Jon K,
A few things
1) In quoting Andrew Z's article, you also left out the part where the GM's were asked who they'd start a franchise around and it was LeBron, TD, Shaq, with Wade and Amare getting many votes. I didn't see Kobe's name there at all. Not bashing Kobe, but it does give a lot of validation to my proposals
2) Be careful about proposing "Who would be a better Laker--Shaq, Kobe, Aquaman, Batman, or Spider-Man?" BK loves superheroes, and might be tempted... haha
3) Rest assured, though, I'm not creating an "et, tu?" moment. This is just fun, theoretical debate fodder, like you and your buddies throw around at a bar. And you even said, given the opportunity, you'd pull the trigger on LJ. But it's just throwing around arguments, creating chatter. I'm not giving "strength" to the Kobe haters. They'll be doing what they're doing either way, and don't need any validation from me.
As always, thanks for the comments, Jon. Your energy is much appreciated.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | January 06, 2006 at 09:10 AM
All I have to say is that none of the people enlisted in this blog is a GM. To suggest a trade for Lebron to Los Angeles and Kobe to Cleveland is a fallacy in logic. First of all, there are a couple of Laker fans in this blag who are complete hipocrites. There was one in particular who is url is Laker fan. Take that URL out and put in illogical yet underminded want to be a Laker fan. Kobe is the best player in the league hands down. Duncan is overrated. His points per game has always been mediocre as well as his turnovers/assist ration. Cannot make free throws and finally he has won those championships because of his team and not is athletic abilities. Lebron maybe young and good, but he has no defense and wouldn't fit in the glamorous world of Los Angeles. Boy looks like a gluteous medius and that is saying it in polite manner. Lebron will be up there with the elite players, but I don't see him winning a championship in Cleveland. Last but not least Lakers will cause chaos in the playoffs and one last thing these columnist need to focus on other things around the NBA and not just Kobe.... the number one written about player in the league.
Posted by: David Moncayo | January 06, 2006 at 09:21 AM
How do all you Laker fans feel about a core for the team made up of Kobe, LO, and Bynum?
Obviously this year it’s not the best with LO finding his rhythm with the triangle and his new role and well, Drew is 18. But in 2-3 years, wouldn’t you feel pretty good with this as our foundation? Look at the dominant teams in the league right now. The Spurs trio of TD, Manu, and Parker is the best right now, but TD’s had his fair share of injuries and is slowing. The Suns trio of Nash, Amare, and Marion looks pretty tough, but again, you never know about Amare’s knee and how long Nash can keep up that pace. What about Miami? I know D-Wade will be tough for years to come, but we all know what’s going to happen with Shaq’s body and that A. Walker contract looks mighty painful as far as bringing in new talent. Detroit? It’ll be interesting to see Dumars give B. Wallace, Billups, and the rest of the crew the money they will demand and keep that team together. I really can’t find a group of players that I like better than our three as a core (especially with the money we’ll have in 07’ to spend on pieces). I’ll go with our guy Jon when I say I’m excited about his team’s future with the three aforementioned players we have and Phil (he will be around past this three-year contract, I guarantee it). In the meantime we get the most entertaining, electric player in b-ball to watch, enjoy it people.
Posted by: Andrew Z | January 06, 2006 at 09:39 AM
THERE'S NO WAY I WOULD DO IT
Men, it's kind of hard imagine that you gonna get equal value for a player like "KOBE", he is one of the most gifted players that i've ever seen, he has that animal desire to win the games and that's why a lot of people say that he is a selfish guy, that he does not improve their teammates. There are such players in the league like LJ on D howard, young promises that could rise their level into a Kobe level, o even TD or KG that are two of the most dominant guys on the last 10 years, but think about it, TD hast a great cast around him, Manu, Parker even David Robinson, And well it's true kobe had Shaq alongside, but now he is by himself and he is proving that is was not all about sahq, he is proving that he can win games by himself, even when lamar or smush are no hot. He is just Keeping his stroke out there like he didi before, or you just think that shaq won the three rings by himself, no kobe did amazing things and that's why i said he is the best player of this generation after MJ off corss. He is a clutch guy that can give a game from nowhere. He is a bothside court player and any of the "young promises" would give you. Lebron does not have the intensity that Kobe has, D howard is a good rebounder and Dunker but no else, and DW or flash wayde just dont have the skills to be on the same page that Kobe, he is fast just that but age would take that out, and Kobe will keep being the best. at least for me and for all his fans it is.
Posted by: Andrew Smith | January 06, 2006 at 09:56 AM
Andrew Z,
I love Bynum, but he's going to take at least 3 years to develop into a force, probably 5 years before he becomes dominant.
By that time Kobe will just begin to decline in terms of athleticism.
I'm hoping we can make something happen within the next three years.
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 06, 2006 at 09:59 AM
Zen,
Leinart returned to USC because of ... women? Are they banned from the NFL? Do I have to jog your memory about the Vikings? LOL :)
Sure Dwayne Wade is good - really good. But he's not gr8. And at 6'4" I don't think he'll ever be gr8 at defence - think Allen Iverson, but a little taller. Bigger guards will always have their way with him.
And have you seen any of the Laker games. Most of the time, KB8 is directing LO and the others to where they should be. If that's not good direction, I don't know what is.
Andrew Z,
I say LO and KBrown for Howard and Hill. Yes, Hill is one [more] ankle injury away from retirement, but atleast he gets off the books in two years, and if fit [this year's sports hernia not withstanding, I do think he is good for another 2-3 years] he would be the perfect compliment to KB8. He is a legit 18-20 ppg scorer, is capable of running the team like LO, and is a good PF. Also, a very classy individual.
So we get LO's contributions AND look better on the payroll circa 2007.
Posted by: hariyahu | January 06, 2006 at 10:46 AM
Jon,
I agree with you about Kobe's decline in athleticism, you're very right. But people did say the same about Jordan. I hate to bring the Kobe-MJ thing up at any time, but really MJ really built up his physique and changed his game as he got older (he developed a killer fade away and really didn't have as many spectacular dunks as in his younger days). I do find it odd that Mitch drafted a guy who is years away when Kobe is in his prime, but you can also say similar stuff about other teams core players. TD is probably on the decline, so is Shaq, and Nash, who keeps that team moving isn't getting any younger and PGs get old real fast.
I do agree that we need to make something happen in the next three years. It would be nice to add one more major piece (I think a lot were hoping it was Kwame...oops) in the near future. I'm of the belief that if we get to the playoffs, I wouldn't put anything past Kobe. In the playoffs there is no one I would rather have on my team and I guarantee no coach/team would want to face him.
Posted by: Andrew Z | January 06, 2006 at 10:47 AM
zen,
wade was a from college when he won those games in the playoffs.at 21 kobe carried us in the game7 of the playoffs in 2000 and also in the finals in game 4 aganst indy.u cant compare KB8 and wade when wade is 22 and kobe is 18.
Posted by: the KB fan | January 06, 2006 at 11:01 AM
I am one of the Laker's fan in the North East area. I have never missed any of the Lakers' games this season. I have read the blog today on trading Kobe for LJ, TD, or KG... I simply disagree with this idea. Kobe has been playing for this Lakers Co. for years since he join NBA. There is no player in this league has love LA than Kobe. Yes, he has some flawness in leadership and personal behavior, but it is tough to keep quiet when your squads do not step up. I have got some frustration with the rest of Lakers team members rather than Kobe. Kobe plays the game with his heart and soul for LA. I start giving him some respect on the game against Dallas after he got 62 pts, Phil invited him to play in the 4 quarter, but he refused.
The team suffer 5th lost consecutively because they are not on the same page. Phil needs to pull them back on the same page and they will regain the momentum.
Making any leader trade is not simple as restructure the team with other member changes. I am voting to retain Kobe in any cases.
This blog is a free public opinion, so no one is smart or stupid. It is just opinion. I feel disrespect to someone who thought they are smarter than others.
Lakers Always,
LAXfactor
Posted by: LAXfactor | January 06, 2006 at 11:05 AM
Andrew Z,
Yeah, we took a real gamble on Kwame. We didn't crap out, but one would expect a lot more development by now if he was going to achieve the potential everyone hoped for him.
Turiaf's heart condition was another huge hit after his impressive summer league display. We obviously need an inside presence.
Bynum won't be that for another two years.
So...
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 06, 2006 at 11:06 AM
Can you feel the wishful thinking just pouring out of me?
I think of all things this year, Turiaf's heart condition hurt the most, he was great in the summer and I seriously think would have had some sort of impact this year.
Posted by: Andrew Z | January 06, 2006 at 11:24 AM
Andrew Z,
I agree.
Posted by: Jon Kavulic | January 06, 2006 at 11:27 AM
Hariyahu,
When Matt goes to the NFL, he is no longer "the man", but a second or third string rookie. Believe me, at USC, his chances of getting woman were much, much higher! He was the man on campus after all. In Southern California for that matter!
KB Fan:
Good point. However in 2000, we had a monster Shaq in his prime. Shaq was flat out awesome in 2000.
Posted by: Zen | January 06, 2006 at 12:13 PM