Ox, Haley, and the Triangle
From poster Ox, regarding last night's game and post game wrap up:
"What did you guys think of Foxsport analyst Jack Haley's comments after the game in which he said the Lakers should junk the triangle? I agree with him."
Interesting you ask, because Andrew and I were actually talking about this last night. I understand why people would want to scrap the triangle, but I don't think it's a good idea. Here's why:
1) It's still early. For all the endless talk we've heard about how long it takes to properly implement the triangle, it's actually the truth. It's complicated, and doesn't come quickly. 10 games into the season seems pretty quick to give up on Phil's system.
2) The team had trouble running Rudy T's offense last year, and actually had moments of increased proficiency when the triangle was periodically used. This year's squad is essentially the same as that group. Perhaps the problem isn't that they can't run this offense, but that the personnel aren't talented enough offensively to run any schemes effectively. The roster just doesn't have a lot of scoring talent.
3) Phil was brought back to return this team to glory... in a couple of years. Everyone knew this and next season would be tough as the Lakers geared up to clear cap space and try to dramatically improve the team. Assuming Phil plans on sticking around for that part (and if he doesn't there was absolutely no point in bringing him back), why bend to players who can't or aren't capable of getting with the program? Keep running the offense for another 70 games, and see if the light bulb comes on for anyone. Weed out the players who don't get it. If nothing else, changing to another offense means that Andrew Bynum, one of only a couple players who could be major contributors to Phil's "Good Lakers of the Future" won't have to relearn the offense in two years. Every practice he takes outside the triangle is a waste if he needs to learn it again when Jackson has the players he wants.
4) The problem isn't just the triangle, it's the players. Chicago did a lot of odd things last night, dribbling into traffic, forcing shots, etc. But one thing their entire team seemed willing to do was take open shots. When Hinrich had a good look, he took it. Same with Gordon, Duhon, and Nocioni. When Sweetney caught the ball in position on the block, he shot. The Lakers pass up open opportunities even when Kobe isn't on the floor. While he gets aggressive in spots, Odom is generally too deferential. After the Clippers game, Jackson noted Smush needed to take a couple open chances. At least Sasha will take the open three when it's there, even though he tends to rush. Outside of Kobe, the only guy who seems to have his mind made up about what he'll do with the ball- either catch and shoot, or move it along- is Brian Cook. Everyone else seems to think about what they'll do after they have the rock. I don't know if changing the offense solves that problem. Does Kobe take too many shots? Probably, but some of that comes from the fact that his teammates are reluctant to shoot themselves.
BK
Jack Haley is crazy. Why get rid of this system that's won 9 championships? It's a high IQ system. Which means when done right, any defense has a hard time stopping it. Because, the people in it aren't necessarily sure what will be the next move until the defense shows their hand. Most players are used to the coach telling them what to do, go here, do that. The triangle let's the players make those decisions depending on the defense that's thrown at them.
Once guys get used to it. They will run all over people. But, for now, they are young. Even veteran's have trouble learning the triangle. And it's most important concept is spacing which really applies to most team sports. And what's the hardest thing to do in team sports, proper spacing.
Sounds easy, but not so when someone's running at you. They will gain confidence as the year goes on.
Hey, they're not getting blown off the floor.
Young teams have the hardest time with finishing quarters, halves, games, keeping a lead and imposing thier will. That just comes with finding your identity, which doesn't happen in the first 10 games. The last thing is this. If we hit 75 percent of our free throws, we win that game. Gotta do better at the stripe.
And good for Sasha hitting a couple big threes late in the game. And good on 'Kidrew' pulling down some boards late in the game.
Don't scrap anything. We are a lot further in a shorter amount of time than the Clips and Bulls were in their rebuilding years.
Posted by: 1979 | November 21, 2005 at 12:23 PM
I agree, in almost all the games, we haven't gotten blown out, maybe except the Memphis game. I think once we find a 2nd scorer and shoot better at the free throw line, the Lakers will win 50 games.
Posted by: Frustrated Laker Fan | November 21, 2005 at 12:36 PM
Finally a blog and comments that are not only literate but make sense as well!! Go Lakers!!
Posted by: Come-on-sense | November 21, 2005 at 12:58 PM
You know we havent missed back to back playoffs in what almost 30 years? Its hard to believe Laker Management would want to go down in History as being the second to let that happen. They better get some players in here this year or were in Biiiggg trouble!
Posted by: GMac | November 21, 2005 at 12:59 PM
Hello to All
I believe this blogg is wonderful. I appreciated the "LO watch" developed when this blogg was first initiated. Thing is ... what happened to it? Eight games have passed, one-tenth of the season is gone and I haven’t seen that Blogg really flourish.
Do we remember how Laker success is parallel to LO's?
It seems to have faded away, very much like LO's role in the offensive structure.
Lakers look bad. To put it best, not confident (excluding Maestro #8). This again is parallel with LO. Going back to that Memphis Massacre (lets face it, they are truly a mediocre Western Conference Team; that is 10 folds better then the LAKERS) LO scored 7 points in the first five minutes of the game. Forty-three minutes later, with the box score finalized ... LO still had 7 points. Last night, I believe he finished with 12 points. WOW, I mean what gives here??? The guy may not have Scottie Pippens IQ, however LO has displayed flashes in his Up and Down career that he definitely possess more SKILL when determined.
In no way am I knocking LO, to me he is by far an individual who has the abilities to be sooooooo special. Versatile doesn’t even truly define him, uncanny is more like it. He’s a SUPER FREAK!! A seven foot ball handler that can grab 15 rebounds for an average night. On the break, I get really excited when he has the rock in the middle of the floor with the Maestro on the wing. Remember MJ32 and BS4 on the breakkkk!!! Chick Hearn would finish saying, "SLLLAAAMMMM DUNNNKKK" before the pass even got to Byron!!
LO, pleeeeeezz!! Do what you KNOW HOW TO DO. JUST BALL!! Stop standing on the weak-side (the weak-side on the triangle offense is like chillin with the Laker Girls). Stop settling to Watch. Stop taking that 3 pointer, drive hard to the Rack. I think your shooting 15% beyond the Arc, and I see you settle for that shot more then anything! It looks like you don’t like going to your right, but when you did last year when Maestro was out for 20 games, YOU COULDNT BE STOPPED!! Great things happened. The whole "L" knows you can’t be stopped driving to the LEFT. So, let’s wake that RIGHT side up! You GOT GAME!! I picked you in my second ROUND!! I could have picked McGrady, Wade, Duncan, blaaa, blaaa. I PICKED LO7.
Bring back your BRONX flava to the TRIANGLE and the TRIANGLE will give you flava BACK. LO its time to SURPASS YOUR POTENTIAL.
Laker dominance is truly in the hands of LO's Dominance ... if he wants it!!
Posted by: ramy | November 21, 2005 at 01:02 PM
Hey Ramy,
There will be more "LO Watch" entries in the future and soon. We're just spacing them out so they don't become repetitive. But LO's a huge part of the team's potential success and will receive plenty of ink.
Thanks for the nice words. Glad you're enjoying the blog.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | November 21, 2005 at 01:14 PM
Dear BK,
I'm glad you took up the subject of the triangle for discussion. Just wondering, have you ever considered doing some original reporting -- say, an interview -- for this site? Will the big shots at the "L.A. Times" allow it?
If so, I would propose that you touch bases with Tim Floyd, who's now coaching men's basketball at USC. You many recall that Tim Floyd replaced Phil Jackson in Chicago after Phil, Scottie, and M.J. departed. Anyway, "Crumbs" Krause insisted that Floyd stick with the triangle. The results, of course, were disastrous. The players couldn't stand it.
It might be interesting to get Floyd's thoughts on the subject, assuming he'd speak candidly on the about it. Just a thought.
(By the way, Tex Winter remained on the staff for two years to help Floyd install the triangle.)
Posted by: Ox | November 21, 2005 at 01:17 PM
Lamar Odom is Sore loser. Why waste time on his blog.
Posted by: laker fan | November 21, 2005 at 02:15 PM
Good blog BK. I agress 100 percent.
Posted by: Drew Gordon | November 21, 2005 at 02:59 PM
Please stop all the Bryant blaming stuff,Phil should Get the blame for not going after Lamar Odom
why is his number two option afraid to shot the ball,no wonder the man is shaking in the F.T line.
May be we should trade Slava and one 2nd pick for Atlanta`s Harrington,he is availlable, that will be our second options,the guy will give us 15/10 minimum every night that`s all we need and #8 will take care the rest,
Posted by: Rock | November 21, 2005 at 05:35 PM
Ramy love the love for L.O. He is the Key to our triangle working. You just don't find player better fit for the initiator position in the trichamp9. L.O. was special before he fell into this system. And now there's a special spot only a select few that have ever played the game can fit into. It's confidence and you only get that through playing it in a game. Not practice. At some point, everyone will continue falling on Kobe and the L.Odominator will keep the pill and posterize centers and pf's alike. That's when the light bulb will blink on.
I agree Ox. Some outside views would be cool. Especially Floyd. Nothing against Tim Floyd, but puleeze, of course the players rebelled. Tex isn't the coach, he's the Yoda. And the players weren't going to buy into anyone other than Phil selling the trichamp9 anyway. Phil as an ex-player and successful voice of the trichamp9 (trichamp6 at that point)has a certain stature that Floyd doesn't have and is the only one who can carry it off. Noone's gonna listen to The Rutles if The Beatles are still able to play.
Plus practicing and applying the trichamp9 is very quirky. Kind of enigmatic too. And I don't know if you noticed but, NBA players don't do quirky very well. Unless, there's a gold ball within smelling distance. Play the "d", hit your open shots, make your throws and believe...it won't be too long(11 years was a looooong time).
Posted by: 1979 | November 21, 2005 at 05:51 PM
Good article in Sunday's Chicago Suntimes about Phil's return to the Lakers. Alot of quotes from Tex Winter. Stuff I haven't read anyplace else. Written by Roland Lazenby, who's written alot of articles about the Lakers in the past. He's known to have close ties to both Phil and Tex. You guys should definitely link to it.
Posted by: Clanky | November 21, 2005 at 06:17 PM
Phil Jackson and the Triangle offense never won a single championship. MJ, Scottie, Shaq, & Kobe did. If the Triangle was the total answer, Shaq, Kobe, Mailman, & the Glove would have won another championship. It's all about players with chemistry. Do you think Detroit would be better with the Traingle. They don't need it. They have chemistry. The Lakers don't. You need more that one weapon for the Triangle to work. Have you ever noticed Kobe's shooting percentage when he comes around a high screen and puts up a quick jumper. It's about 80%. Lets do that. When he creates on his own they triple him and cripple him. For more ideas on this, go to lakers.topbuzz.com and then come back here and work it over.
Posted by: JamFan | November 21, 2005 at 06:46 PM
Why does stu lanz talk too much? we really do not need that much information or second guessing. it distract us from enjoying the play that is going on if he keep blabring. the play by play anouncer should be calling plays. we remember he does not do that at all with chick hearn
Posted by: ne mendoza | November 22, 2005 at 12:33 AM
1. Laker fan since 1949
2. Can't take it anymore
3. Time to get real
4. Current Roster (guaranteed Lottery Pick)
4.1 Kwame Brown - Hands of stone, just can't play
basketball - Goodbye
4.2 Kobe Bryant - Ego maniac - let's see
Busses/Mitch get some big time
player stupid enough to play
with him.
4.3 Andrew Bynum - Keeper.
4.4 Brian Cook - Danger to rims. Never will be a
good NBA player. Goodbye. BTW
Lakers could have selected Josh
Howard.
4.5 Devean George - Doesn't belong in NBA. BTW,
Lakers could have selected
Andrei Kirilenko. Let's hear it
for the vaunted West and
company.
4.6 Devin Green - ???
4.7 Aaron McKie - Too little, too late. Goodbye.
4.8 Slava Medvedenko - Poor Slave. Suggest taking a
train back to the Ukraine.
4.9 Chris Mihm - Another one who just can't play
basketball. The barbeque is still
great in Austin though.
4.10 Lamar Odom - Sick of hearing he just needs to
get comfortable in the triangle.
Hell, he's been in the league
long to assert himself in any
offense. Missing free throws,
layups, outside shots is
triangle's fault? The guy is just
choking.
4.11 Smush Parker - Keeper.
4.12 Laron Profit - Puuhlease. Goodbye.
4.13 Sasha Vujacic - Borderline keeper.
4.14 Von Wafer - ???
4.15 Luke Walton - Any other last name and he
wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes
in the NBA. Lakers could have
selected Kyle Korver. So long.
5. Also, please note that in the 2002 draft, Lakers
could have selected Carlos Boozer instead of
Chris Jeffries.
6. Phil Jackson is the greatest coach in my lifetime
and to be stuck with these pretenders is a crime.
7. Chick must be turning over in his grave.
Posted by: W. J. Rousey | November 22, 2005 at 06:56 AM
Ox (and others)-
We're in the process of lining up "guests" for the blog. It should happen soon. Right now, we're just trying to figure out the best way to get people on. It'll happen though, so keep an eye out.
Brian
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | November 22, 2005 at 07:45 AM